PlaneShift
Gameplay => General Discussion => Topic started by: Datruth on August 01, 2006, 03:27:34 am
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Face it guys, ojaveda has near nothing right now.
Spawning in hydlaa and coming over to oja when you need to makes alot more sense, than spawning in oja right now.
Basically, if you spawn in ojaveda, your gonna be taking long walks every day.
The gold mine, magic shop, strength trainers, other important trainers, arena, sewers, and items are all at Hydlaa.
I mean everything.
My final piece of evidence is it's current condition, hardly anyone is in ojaveda, i mean i could go around and count how many people are in there now, and i'd find less than 10 on average.
My point is, the cities are immensely lop sided.
If the devs wanted to help Ojaveda, they would have made Oja the only place to train and buy Medium armor.
And in the future, make it the only place to train and sell heavy armor.
Also, i also feel i have to address the comments of the Developer known as "jorrit"
He writes:
I just love it how some people think they can speak for the devs like they can read thier minds. I'm quite sure the Devs do care about their players. Care a bunch.
Devs has said this. I have heard it from thier own words.
The devs are many people. Not all think the same. In general we DO care about the players. If we didn't we could just as well close down the public server and have an easier time developing and making new features.
Greetings,
You can say you care about a person all day long, but what actual proves it, Action.
There has been some action by the Dev team and moderator team, so i can't say they don't care, they do, probably not enough.
We need more action.
Right now this is how it works, WE are the moderating team, We decide Ojaveda is a ghost town.
No discussion with players.
Verdict final.
Why?
it always goes back to their phony answer,
We're not done with the game yet, your just a tester, therefore, if you dont enjoy the game, stop playing it, your not here to have fun.
You're here to test!
Don't Complain about our decisions.
You're here to test!
We're in Pre-Alpha, and we're gonna have a massive opening in 30 years.
You're here to test!
Why not ask the players, what would you like in ojaveda?
I've never been asked for my opinion, and probably never will, because, it's their game... and...
You're here to test!
Well you know what, if that's all i'm here for, then don't say you care about my Wishes.
~~Restound
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"Work harder, faster!"
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"Work harder, faster!"
Karyuu, my post wasn't meant to be taken as a joke.
It's theme was that there should be more player participation in the decision making process of this game.
And yes, right now, we are just working, as you put it.
We have no say as to where things should be implemented.
We're just here to test.
Therefore, we do whatever you guys implement.
You have to understand something though.
Sometimes what you implement impedes the Players.
We don't like going on long walks, and we're letting that be known.
I'd think one of the nicest and most intelligent persons on this board would understand what i meant.
You've always been a fair person, so hear us out.
We want fixes, and we want them now.
We won't settle for the Tester theory anymore.
Oja has nothing, and forcing enkidukais to go there is Pure Tyranny, in it's highest form.
If you care, help us, and lets make a better game together.
Developer and Player, hand in hand, step by step.
And that's no joke.
~~Restound
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"We want fixes, and we want them now," you say? Hm. What have we been doing... Ah, I remember. Sitting around twiddling our thumbs.
Let's ignore the latest combat bugs, and ignore what fixes were necessary to weapon/armor repairs, ignore NPC issues, ignore finishing new content, let's put everything on hold because you think Ojaveda is a dead town, when there are players in this very thread who disagree with you.
I try to post nicely as much as I can, but man, even I'm human and I too have my limits sometimes. If you want to help, please join the team. That's all I can possibly leave you with.
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Things have been getting smelly witht the new roads. I mean there are only so many that can wash in the fountain before it is just nasty.
The new waterways are a long over due necesity. I mean, have you smelt the air around Harnquists (http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i10/LARAGORN/pukin.gif)
Take a walk folks and wash up a bit, PLEASE
As for Oja, I was there today with a few friends and we where totaly occupied for a few hours.
There are many things to do there.
@Datruth, you are very short sighted. If you read threw the forum you will see all that has changed, and continue to change.
Oja is far from compleation, and just cause you whine there is nothing to do and say you want it now, wont change anything (exept peoples opinion of you)
Yes the players are listend to, and there is an open invitation for YOUR opinion in the "wish list" You can suggest anything you want to see, as long as you follow the forum rules ;)
Take it easy, things are comming :)
Edit; Please stop posting as if you speak for everyone. I enjoy the walks to and from either Oja or BD :)
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Datruth:
I wonder who you are talking about every time you say "we". Are you speaking for all of the community, or just for yourself? :) If it is for the community, I fail to see any evidence that you have been elected as some sort of spokesperson that knows absolutely the opinions of every other person on these boards, and can make categorical statements such as "we won't settle for this" on their behalf.
You are testers. And if you do not like the fact that this project is being developed as a hobby, or that players do not dictate every aspect of its development, you are very free to leave. I apologise if that sounds harsh, but you do not sound very grateful to be a part of PlaneShift. Nobody is keeping you here if you are really this upset about features that will eventually, not immediately no matter how much you complain, be implemented.
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If you want to help, please join the team.
I never said, you are all lazy and not doing anything.
The recent updates, are a clear sign of all the work you are doing.
All i said, was you weren't allowing input from the player community; Which is backed up by people in this thread.
And i like your response, Here is how i read it, "Join the monarchy or submit to it."
Well i would join the dev team, but i doubt i'd be accepted.
But atleast i'll show my interest.
If the only way our opinions will get into the game is joining the team then i will.
I wish to join the team, please provide me with the necessary steps to do so.
Maybe i can voice the concern of the players to you better if i'm considered your equal and not your subservient.
~~Restound
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I don't understand your attitude here. I truly don't. Why do you feel that the dev team isn't listening? Is it because we aren't waving magic wands and making everything you want appear immediately?
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The point we are trying to make is that we do listen to player concerns, but there are priorities to consider. If we had a team of 200+ members, implementing fixes for every bug found immediately or every feature suggested within a day would be a cinch. As it is, we have less than 50. And this is a hobby, so work is not being done all day, every day, by every team member. Player wishes simply must be queued.
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I'd be happy if we had even 20 active people, day-to-day. Most of the time we have half that.
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Datruth:
I wonder who you are talking about every time you say "we". Are you speaking for all of the community, or just for yourself? :) If it is for the community, I fail to see any evidence that you have been elected as some sort of spokesperson that knows absolutely the opinions of every other person on these boards, and can make categorical statements such as "we won't settle for this" on their behalf.
You are testers. And if you do not like the fact that this project is being developed as a hobby, or that players do not dictate every aspect of its development, you are very free to leave. I apologise if that sounds harsh, but you do not sound very grateful to be a part of PlaneShift. Nobody is keeping you here if you are really this upset about features that will eventually, not immediately no matter how much you complain, be implemented.
So now voicing your concern of an aspect of the game makes you "ungratefull"?
I speak for the others in this thread, who feel ojaveda is too far of a walk to hydlaa.
I am not alone in that belief, and i feel a poll of that question will show the majority is on my side.
By the way, you said players do not dicate every aspect of it's development and that makes me mad.
What makes me concerned is we have NO say, as to the aspect of it's developement.
Right now, what do the players decide?
Please enlighten me santiago.
And forcing someone to leave just because they won't submit to your rule is as Tyrannical as you can get.
I mean look at his exact words, "If you don't like it leave".
Maybe if the whole community helped make this game, and helped implement new things, i might say that.
If everyone decided on a certain aspect of the game, I WOULD SUBMIT.
Currently, it's not like that.
I do not like being considered ungratefull, for speaking about a problem which affects the majority of the game.
Nowhere, in any of my posts, will you see that the devs are lazy, and that i hate them.
I have not written that.
My opinion of the devs is that they are a bunch of hard working and nice people, the VAST majority of them.
It is rare to find an uncaring Dev among them.
All i have written is, the devs need to allow player participation in the game.
No more no less.
But i know what your answer will be, I don't care what you want Datruth.
You're here to test!
By the way, where was the info as to how i could become part of the dev team?
I was told, that i had that ability, by karyuu.
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I mean look at his exact words, "you are very free to leave".
I corrected some typos for you. ;)
The player recruitment page can be found on the main website. For your convenience, here is the link (http://www.planeshift.it/helpus_recruit.html).
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I mean look at his exact words, "you are very free to leave".
I corrected some typos for you. ;)
Lol thanks, i leave a few of those when i'm all worked up :) :D.
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Check the "Help Us" section of the website for an application, and make sure that you leave no blanks when you submit it.
We listen to input, as proven by the Wishlist section of the forums and many threads elsewhere. But what we don't like are demanding attitudes consisting of "We want it and we want it now, we won't take this any longer, blah blah blah."
Hey, this is a hobby and we spend as much time as possible on it. This doesn't mean that we can get content or fixes out immediately or the second we'd like. We have 90% of the time 10-15 people active. They are located all over the world.
What is it that you want, exactly? Why this demanding front, and this claim that you can speak for others? I find plenty of people in this thread who disagree that Ojaveda is nothing at this time.
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I think, like a lot of problems, the real problem in this situation is just people's minds. People are too lazy to take advantage of Ojaveda. Obviously there's stuff to do there, but we need to convince more people to do the stuff. Adding more areas will definitely help this situation a lot, but it might end up being only temporary... lots of people went to the Bronze Doors soon after they were available but now everyone's seen them so there's not as much point. We need to change people's minds.
Another big problem is the fact that not a lot of the features are implemented, which means there's not a lot of opportunity to create differences between what's in the areas. Once a lot more of the skills work, it might be possible to put more trainers for some skills in Oja only and other trainers in Hydlaa only. (Once Body Development works for example, a lot of people might go to see the trainer for it in Oja if there isn't one in Hydlaa.)
Once the game's inner workings are settled, then they'd be able to start working on the stuff you can see.
(Of course, that doesn't change the fact that I want more of Oja, for the sake of my character. Come on devs, let Siteri see her family again!)
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soooo bein g a tid it off topic , what is the Dev team looking for the most..i mean what speciality or tech trade could one of us do to speed the progress of completion up the most...
also when you say hobby you really mean it, most hobbies are life long and i think this one will be to lol
maybe if you more publicly states the exact needs of the team at the moment you could get some more help ( maybe u have already i dunno this was just a fast edit right befor i went to bed goodnight lol )
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All i have written is, the devs need to allow player participation in the game.
It's funny what the power of one statement can make.
Looks like it finally got the Devs all riled up.
That's good.
I'll continue to say it.
Dev's need to allow player participation in game.
Wish list is just a place where people put their wants in.
By participation i mean, we know what your working on, we vote on how to do it, we help you as you do it.
Very simple idea.
The wish list forum in no way addresses this problem.
No taxation without representation....
It's What our country was founded on.
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I'd be happy if we had even 20 active people, day-to-day. Most of the time we have half that.
Where are you getting these magic numbers?... With respect to programming, most days we have half that, only a few actually working on the server, and usually CVS commits from only one or two people, if that. This is not a big team. If you include all departments, my generic estimate is a dozen active devs at any one time.
I'd really like to know where we get all these whiny players... they're annoying. Look, no, you have no input unless you're on the team. We like to discuss and listen to players' ideas, but we may or may not listen. It's not your game, no matter how large your ego. You have no say in the matter.
Edited to add:
Why are you quoting democratic stuffs?... This ain't a democracy; there's no rule here; we're making a game and you're playing/testing it here. Where do people get the hubris to demand to vote on things? Apply to the team if you'd like (link is in my sig), but you have to satisfactorily complete some tasks before getting in. Aka, you need to actually have the skills and talent not to make crap.
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But we aren't being taxed. This is a free game.
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Datester,
Are you familiar with the PlaneShift motto?
"100% satisfaction or your money back!" :-)
The players that get listened to here are the ones who have ideas that add value and make the game more fun for all players, or which add capabilities and whole new ways to play. The ones who bellyache about how hard it is or how boring a run is--those don't get listened to. If you don't like the run, change your fricken race. Otherwise, life is about choices, so get used to disappointment.
Your slave,
- Vengeance
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I am not sure where you got the idea that PlaneShift is open to any more than what you just described the Wishlist as being -- Players can give their input and opinions, and developers will listen, but they have absolutely no obligation to do anything any player wants.
That is how it is.
Trying to rile people up is not constructive, nor makes your demands any more relevant to the facts. :) What you are suggesting simply will not happen, unless Talad decides to allow it. Unfair? Depends who you ask. But you have no rights to demand changes to how the game is developed, and doing so with such a forceful attitude is the last way you will get anyone to take you seriously.
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I'd be happy if we had even 20 active people, day-to-day. Most of the time we have half that.
Where are you getting these magic numbers?... With respect to programming, most days we have half that, only a few actually working on the server, and usually CVS commits from only one or two people, if that. This is not a big team. If you include all departments, my generic estimate is a dozen active devs at any one time.
I'd really like to know where we get all these whiny players... they're annoying. Look, no, you have no input unless you're on the team. We like to discuss and listen to players' ideas, but we may or may not listen. It's not your game, no matter how large your ego. You have no say in the matter.
Edited to add:
Why are you quoting democratic stuffs?... This ain't a democracy; there's no rule here; we're making a game and you're playing/testing it here. Where do people get the hubris to demand to vote on things? Apply to the team if you'd like (link is in my sig), but you have to satisfactorily complete some tasks before getting in. Aka, you need to actually have the skills and talent not to make crap.
Your elequence moved me daveg, as always. ;)
An Open mind and a kind heart, helps all problems, or so said my parents.
Datester,
Are you familiar with the PlaneShift motto?
"100% satisfaction or your money back!" :-)
The players that get listened to here are the ones who have ideas that add value and make the game more fun for all players, or which add capabilities and whole new ways to play. The ones who bellyache about how hard it is or how boring a run is--those don't get listened to. If you don't like the run, change your fricken race. Otherwise, life is about choices, so get used to disappointment.
Your slave,
- Vengeance
I'm glad i've gotten your attention vengeance, because i am filling out all the stuff you need in order to get on the team and am almost complete.
Hopefully i'll get accepted to the team, and provide some input, and not have my appication thrown out the second it's viewed.
I'm looking forward to a reply, as to what my dev status is.
~~Datruth
Please avoid posting two or more successive posts before others have replied. Just edit your last post to add new information. --Santiago
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Don't automatically expect to get accepted. You need to actually be a decent artist or a programmer. (or if high, a PR guy) That, and the app list is... shall we say, "backed up"... The programming list (the one I manage) is the only one without pending apps, and even it has prospects waiting on tasks.
We barely have the time to work on stuff, and it's often hard to find time to manage a pile of barely competant prospects. (not to say there aren't good and downright great ones, but there are... others; lets just say half the people that apply to the programming dept. don't finish their first task, which is to just build from source)
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Don't automatically expect to get accepted. You need to actually be a decent artist or a programmer. (or if high, a PR guy) That, and the app list is... shall we say, "backed up"... The programming list (the one I manage) is the only one without pending apps, and even it has prospects waiting on tasks.
We barely have the time to work on stuff, and it's often hard to find time to manage a pile of barely competant prospects. (not to say there aren't good and downright great ones, but there are... others)
I'm sorry to say, i didn't sign up for programming, being that it is very boring.
I did do it and i still remember a few things from my past courses, but it is just mindless typing to me, that's why i quit my class.
i signed up for the settings department.
Hopefully that's not full.
And no, i don't expect an automantic invite.
But i also don't want to be ignored and never responded back to.
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It's not that your opinion as a player *doesn't count*, but some kinds of problems take priority over others - your opinion isn't the entirety of the decision making process. Is Ojaveda one day going to be vibrant and full of reasons to be there? Of course. It was decided some time ago that we would implement different spawn locations and we're not going to keep on changing things around. If it's a huge problem, die less.
Oja has nothing, and forcing enkidukais to go there is Pure Tyranny, in it's highest form.
*Pure Tyranny*? It really boggles the mind to think what caused you to suggest this. Ultimately, are the decisions behind planeshift autocratic? Yes. Is it "Pure Tyranny", where you're all forced to play enkidukai endlessly running across a grey plain while supervisors poke you with burning forks? I think not..
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But i also don't want to be ignored and never responded back to.
Um... it'll be a bit. There's dozens of pending apps for Luca to go over, and he simply doesn't have the time for them. The one thing you need to do anything PS related is patience.
Edited to add:
Actually, I'd say the PS team is more of a heirarchical oligarchy. We all have some input on different issues, with most coming from those in the related teams, and the top leaders having overrule powers. 'Course we're back to overanalyzing things again. :)
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But i also don't want to be ignored and never responded back to.
Um... it'll be a bit. There's dozens of pending apps for Luca to go over, and he simply doesn't have the time for them. The one thing you need to do anything PS related is patience.
Edited to add:
Actually, I'd say the PS team is more of a heirarchical oligarchy. We all have some input on different issues, with most coming from those in the related teams, and the top leaders having overrule powers. 'Course we're back to overanalyzing things again. :)
What's the best department, for a writer/webdesigner, who has tested previous Games before?
Maybe i'll sign up for another one.
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Writer => Settings
You filled out the right app. Just make sure to actually fill out everything. People putting down absolutely nothing in the qualifications and experiences stuff get rejected.
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This man does not represent me :-\
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I've been logging into nexus, there are no tasks, and i'm still a prospect, is this your way of quieting me?
What happened to the whole, join the dev team spirit?
You told me to stop talking and help you guys out, so i did, and yet i'm not on your team and the wishes of the players arn't being addressed.
Is this how it works?
Just how long is it supposed to take for someone to join a dev team?
When was the last time you had a member join the dev team?
I want to provide input in the game, you said the only way to have a real effect is to join the dev team, so i did.
I've been a prospect with no tasks for a while now.
How much longer till i get promoted?
What do you need to do to get promoted?
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Holy crap, take a breather.
Didn't DaveG already tell you that it takes a lot of time to manage prospects? Talad is the only one who looks at folks applying to the Settings department, and he's been really busy lately. No one is trying to silence you, for crying out loud. That's such a ridiculous conclusion. People are just busy. Hold on! As you've already been told, people rarely get tasks automatically or are accepted automatically.
Patience!
*edited to add*
"Wishes of the players aren't being addressed"? Isn't it time you stopped trying to "represent" the community?
I've been a prospect with no tasks for a while now.
Didn't you apply yesterday?
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Besides, you can't just join the dev team because you think people will be more likely to listen to you. You have to actually have experience with this stuff. It's like me running for Congress just so I can make laws I like.
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Besides, you can't just join the dev team because you think people will be more likely to listen to you. You have to actually have experience with this stuff. It's like me running for Congress just so I can make laws I like.
"Besides, you can't just join the dev team because you think people will be more likely to listen to you"
If you want to help, please join the team. That's all I can possibly leave you with.
The only way i can help is joining the dev team, as per Karyuu's words, so what other options do i have.
It's either Dev team, or post comments in the wish list.... not much of a choice there is it.
"You have to actually have experience with this stuff. It's like me running for Congress just so I can make laws I like."
There is no need for experience when running for congress, your average rich joe can run whenever he wants.
Just look at the Governor of California.
What about George w bush? Ran for governor out of the blue, he got that, and then he ran for President.
Where is this experience claus of yours written?
And what would experience mean?
Playing previous Rpg's? If that's the case i have.
Writing stories before? If that's the case, i have.
Testing games in beta or alpha? If that's the case, i have.
So i don't know what you're talking about.
Try proving your case better and let the dev's speak for themselves, i'm sure they know more about joining the dev team than you do. ;)
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You might want to loosen up a bit.
What do you expect to do if you make it to the team? And I mean specifics.
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I should point out that I can't remember any settings prospect being good enough (being able to write a story doesn't qualify you) to pass all the tasks and get in. So don't expect it to be easy. Being impatient also marks you as a bad candidate.
More on topic.. well off topic but on what you said, personally I'm working on PlaneShift for fun, not for anyone else, and certainally not to be [ poked at by pitchforks ] at by players who think their opinions are worth gold and should be implemented right this very second. So basically, I take note of what players might like and try and improve the game, but I really don't care about what demanding players want and I will never care. If they don't like it, don't play. I owe nothing to them. :)
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You might want to loosen up a bit.
What do you expect to do if you make it to the team? And I mean specifics.
Whatever it is that you do, that keeps you so "busy".
I'd also provide much needed input as well.
Besides, you're all working hard and need some help, you can hardly keep up, as I hear, so i'd help you guys out with whatever jobs you needed finishing.
I should point out that I can't remember any settings prospect being good enough (being able to write a story doesn't qualify you) to pass all the tasks and get in. So don't expect it to be easy. Being impatient also marks you as a bad candidate.
What's with all these attacks on me, i'm loose , i'm patient, geez lol :D
Why is everyone all defensive, it's not like i'm taking your job or anything.
Just asking some questions thats all.
And by the way, you never answered my last question,
So i'll mark it in bold this time:
"When was the last time a person was admitted on the Dev team?"
And one more.
"When was the last time you had someone successfully admitted through the settings department?"
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"When was the last time you had someone successfully admitted through the settings department?"
/me rasies his hand
well it kind of depends on how you mean admitted. i'm but a mere prospect... so far.
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What do you expect to do if you make it to the team? And I mean specifics.
Whatever it is that you do, that keeps you so "busy".
How will you applying to the Settings department make the team "listen to the players" any more than they already do? What input can you provide that you cannot provide on the forums? Your work will be NPCs and quests :)
What's with all these attacks on me, i'm loose , i'm patient, geez lol :D
I'm not so sure about the patient bit at all. We're annoyed because your attitude is annoying, to be absolutely blunt. It looks like you think you will walk into the team and "clean everything up," work miracles, and make all of the community immediately and forever happy and grateful to you for "representing" them.
"When was the last time a person was admitted on the Dev team?"
I believe that was Helm, who was promoted to WTB two-something months ago in the art department.
"When was the last time you had someone successfully admitted through the settings department?"
Not for half a year at least :P
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What do you expect to do if you make it to the team? And I mean specifics.
Whatever it is that you do, that keeps you so "busy".
How will you applying to the Settings department make the team "listen to the players" any more than they already do? What input can you provide that you cannot provide on the forums? Your work will be NPCs and quests :)
What's with all these attacks on me, i'm loose , i'm patient, geez lol :D
I'm not so sure about the patient bit at all. We're annoyed because your attitude is annoying, to be absolutely blunt. It looks like you think you will walk into the team and "clean everything up," work miracles, and make all of the community immediately and forever happy and grateful to you for "representing" them.
"When was the last time a person was admitted on the Dev team?"
I believe that was Helm, who was promoted to WTB two-something months ago in the art department.
No need to start mud slinging karyuu, seems like your the first to take fire.
If you consider annoying, someone who is questioning the dev team, then yes, i'm the first annoying person you have, nice to meet you :).
i'd like you to quote some annoying things i've said, once i've seen them, if i deem them so, i'll apoligize for them.
The truth, isn't annoying, and that's all i've been giving you.
By the way, i'm not talking about WTB, Want to be members, I'm talking about Full blown DEVS, like directors.
So i'll ask again,
"When was the last time a person was admitted on the Dev team?"
Prospect: This is the role you are covering now. Your activity is to complete the first tasks assigned. Prospect can move to other roles only if these tasks are completed successfully and approved by department leader.
WTB Member (Want To Be Member): The next step for Prospects to help the project. This role includes more responsibilities, benefits to be part of the internal discussions and planning, access to internal resources.
Member: Obtained after many contributions of good assets and after long permanency on the team. Proven loyalty and passion for PlaneShift project.
Leader: Promotion given by Director, after he demonstrated very strong skills in his department, right communication and relationship skills.
Director: Ensure project progress. Give guidelines to dept leaders, assist in all areas where he is needed. Make the project a success.
I'm talking about either Leader or director.
And karyuu, just so you know, i don't mudsling, so don't expect me to name call.
I feel you are a good, honest, God fearing, person who would never hurt a soul.
And i will never call you anything less than that.
And you asked me how i could help.
I heard you all were VERY busy, and needed help.
So i would help you do, whatever Needed being done. If you had a task and were too busy to do it, i'd help you finish it.
I would also provide input.
I'm not trying to be a savior, i'm just trying to help, one step at a time.
Isn't that what you want from the Planeshift community?
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God-fearing? I'm not sure ;) Where did I sling mud? I just said that your attitude was annoying.
The last person to be promoted to full-dev status was Cherppow, I can't remember when... 3-4 months ago? However, we're all developing the game and WTBs get the same amount of voice and attention. It usually takes years to be promoted to a full dev, and a ton of constant work and dedication. No one works to be promoted - we work because we love doing what we do.
When was the last time someone became a leader? (You're constantly asking different things in your posts) Before my time. Years.
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i'd like you to quote some annoying things i've said, once i've seen them, if i deem them so, i'll apoligize for them.
We want fixes, and we want them now.
There you go.
Asking questions in bold red is also annoying.
By the way, i'm not talking about WTB, Want to be members, I'm talking about Full blown DEVS, like directors.
WTB _IS_ a full blown Dev. They can do everything any other dev can except they aren't a member of Atomic Blue afaik. A 'Member' is a dev who is a member of Atomic Blue. If you're only talking about project leaders and above, and think that they are the only devs, then we have 5 people. I will point out the highly obvious that we have one project director and one allocated person as leader for each department.
The last time someone became a 'Member' was a few months back (Cherppow). The last person to be promoted to department leader was GeorgeD I think (music dep) a few years back.
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The way I see it, we are damn lucky to even have the ability to play this game, let alone have a forum where we can voice our opinions and suggestions where they COULD actually be listened to. I mean, you dont see Bethesda or Rockstar, or any other game developers who make games as large and professional as this one opening up the server for people to play on before the game is finished. Do you? When I first heard about this game, I knew I wanted to play it just because I would be getting an "insiders" view of it. To be able to play and help test and watch the game and it's community grow is the biggest reason I started playing. Finding out that it was actually a fun and VERY playable game, despite it's development status, was just a refreshing bonus.
Give these guys a freaking break man! This is their HOBBY and they are generously allowing us to play, FOR FREE, and doing a damn fine job if you ask me.
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Give these guys a freaking break man! This is their HOBBY and they are generously allowing us to play, FOR FREE, and doing a damn fine job if you ask me.
How am i not giving them a break, they always get the benifit of the doubt and they hold all the power.
What's with all these attacks on me, just discuss the issue, not the people, is that so hard?
People discussing the game and helping to change it, while it's being made, is that so hard?
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I don't think you realize just how your posts have appeared through all this. You've been very demanding with your first post, saying that we have a "phony" tester excuse, criticising the devs for not listening to the players at all, then wanting to join the team because you feel you can "change" things.
The reason I said you have the option of joining the team is because you'll be able to help make content. This does NOT mean that you'll be able to get content out before the team says it should be out, nor does it mean that you will be able to make NPCs or change NPC locations/trainers/skills just because it will benefit the players at this very moment in time. It doesn't mean you'll control mining locations, merchants, or monsters. That is Talad's territory. And it's great if you want to join just to help out, but I'm not getting that - from the very first moment it felt as though you want to get into the team just to "have a voice" because the players "need more attention."
Now that feels phony.
And please, this isn't an attack. It's both fact and opinion.
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How am i not giving them a break, they always get the benifit of the doubt and they hold all the power.
Why is this an issue with you? It is THEIR game, THEY are developing it. They dont need the benefit of the doubt, they could just close the servers and develop the game without ANY player say so or opinion at all, just like every other game company. So why shouldnt they "hold all the power". Geez, you act as if this is a country that you are forced to live in with them dictating your every move.
What's with all these attacks on me, just discuss the issue, not the people, is that so hard?
I never attacked anyone. I was simply responding to the issue at hand. If you see that as an attack then thats your problem, not mine.
People discussing the game and helping to change it, while it's being made, is that so hard?
Not at all. Thats one of the very things that I love about this game. However, you are not "discussing and helping", you are demanding and are being quite annoying about it.
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Wow, sometimes I forget people keep posting to these things. Interesting to see it was renamed.
First of all, Datruth, stop posting double spaced and with red/bold crap. It just looks stupid and it's annoying.
Secondly, one of the requirements to join the team is the ability to work with the team. From the content of your posts, you're being way to condescending for that, and in addition to Karyuu and Xordan, I wouldn't really want to work with you either at this rate.
With respect to ranks, we don't really use them that formally. "WTB" was a term created by our "crazy Itallian" (as jokingly put by Venge ;) ) and while it says "Want To Be", it is the primary dev rank. I probably should've asked for a promotion to "member" myself, but frankly I haven't needed to care. Not like I'd get magical uber powers from it. We might want to start actually using these titles at some point, as we get an influx of more people to the team.
With respect to the applications, as I already said, those lists are backed up. It looks like Talad has cleaned up the graphics ones recently, but not settings yet. That one tends to get fewer good applications, and more people who think they know how to "make a game", and simply don't.
Please, I don't see that much of value in this thread. Drop the junk or it will be locked.
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I split the thread, not just renamed (http://img214.imageshack.us/img214/4090/grinwq3.gif) It was veryvery off-topic from the original Ojaveda Improvements theme.
Split topics! Hail SMF!
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Ah, ok.
Oh, if you were wondering how backed up: The settings dept. application list has a good thirty-something people awaiting review.
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Well, let me just put what i got out of this.
Used to think dev team cared a ton about us, and in some ways they do but not as much as i thought.
If their needs, conflict with ours, theirs win out. That may be fine for some people, but i just had to know if that was the truth. So i started reading the forums with an open mind. All i got was, you are testers, this game isn't done, your input is appreciated but we have our own plans for this game. So i thought, how could i help this game or atleast have a say? I was told to join dev team. Now i'm told getting into the dev team is highly unlikely and is rare. Once in, your still under the influence of higher ranking members.
So I got a few points out of it.
This game is ruled by a few members who ultimately decide how it becomes regardless of user input.
Like if we wanted to get rid of Gold altogether, but dev team disagreed, it would never happen, ever.
And if you ever wanted an influencing voice, you'd still be squashed if you joined the dev team. The worst thing i learned though is that people who question these policies are ridiculed and called annoying and it, EVEN by fellow players, whose opinions i'm fighting for. All i wanted was to help this VERY BUSY dev team. All i got was, we're too busy to go through the prospect list and give people asignments to help us.
If you were soo busy, you'd need help, you'd desperatly ask for it, you'd have a shortage of helpers, I believe karyuu and Daveg COMPLAINED about lack of help, saying only about 10 people were on. WEll you have help, you have prospects, at least 30, by Daveg's Count, and yet you don't ask for their help? Why is that?
Anyways, i've learned my lessons. I understand the law of the land and i'll follow it. You wanted a submissive Datruth, and you won, hope your happy. And here are the laws of the land as per Dev's words:
- 1. All user input is Subservient to Dev input, regarldess of what's said.
- 2. Those who question such, Monarchial policies, will be fought, as per the attention this thread has gotten from the devs.
- 3. If you truly want to help the dev team, donate money, because being a prospect will only make them busier, and their are no guarentees you'll get in.
Again, golden rule:
Don't go against anything the Dev's say, don't even question it, don't even argue,
Remember:
You're just here to test, and with that, i end this thread, as a memory for the fight of democracy for the players of PS, and for the plea of the people who want to help the Dev's, but get rejected.
For the people, who get shot down, their ideas too far fetched, cause the dev team is Too busy to implement them.
For the wish list section, where pleas can be made, answered only if they go along with the Dev's wishes.
And with that, i submit to their rule and power.
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As far as I heard, we may have a new settings prospect; but the one I mean will know it better if that is correct.
And I am sure that he will do a good job, he has been a great roleplayer before.
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You understand nothing, Datruth.
If their needs, conflict with ours, theirs win out.
This has never been, and will never be, a democracy. This is Talad's brainchild.
Now i'm told getting into the dev team is highly unlikely and is rare. Once in, your still under the influence of higher ranking members.
Damn straight you're still under the influence of the higher ups :) Show me any development team that allows new members to walk all over the old and change things around. Besides, it is the Settings department that is hard to get into, because Talad is very particular about what kind of people he wants creating his world. The other departments are easier if your work has quality.
This game is ruled by a few members who ultimately decide how it becomes regardless of user input.
Welcome to PlaneShift. Is this such a shock? We don't create the game based on player demand. We create based on our own time, wants, and plans. This is how things are. This is how they have been, and will remain.
And if you ever wanted an influencing voice, you'd still be squashed if you joined the dev team.
Of course, if your 'influence' goes against everything every other member in the team is working on, interferes with their work, or is just wild and crazy :) Of course, you haven't said what kind of influence you expect to bring in, even though I have asked you in this thread. You said you just wanted to help out, as well.
The worst thing i learned though is that people who question these policies are ridiculed and called annoying and it, EVEN by fellow players, whose opinions i'm fighting for.
Maybe they disagree with you? Maybe they don't need you to "fight" for them? Maybe they are happy and patient and trusting, more than you?
All i wanted was to help this VERY BUSY dev team. All i got was, we're too busy to go through the prospect list and give people asignments to help us.
Yes, that's unfortunate but it's a reality. Talad is the main guy who handles prospects, and he doesn't always have the time to give them 100% of his attention. You have applied yesterday. Yesterday! It's crazy to expect a response so quickly. People sometimes wait weeks, but they get their tasks, do an awesome job, and life continues happily. We don't have a professional 24/7 prospect support system. Please deal with this.
WEll you have help, you have prospects, at least 30, by Daveg's Count, and yet you don't ask for their help? Why is that?
Why is it so hard for you to understand that managing prospects is a time-consuming job? GM applications have been put on hold because of prospects. Talad gets swamped, with PS, with bugs, with his real jobs and travel and many other duties. But patience pays off, for everyone. If they have it, that is, as you have proven you don't.
You're just here to test, and with that, i end this thread, as a memory for the fight of democracy for the players of PS, and for the plea of the people who want to help the Dev's, but get rejected.
Datruth, this "democracy" never existed. You haven't even been rejected as a prospect. You just lack the patience to wait a few days so you can get your tasks and do a great job. So cut the crap and stop complaining about some virtual rightous battle with the development team for the fate of the Player Voice.
The only thing that has been rejected here is your arrogant attitude.
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All i wanted was to help this VERY BUSY dev team. All i got was, we're too busy to go through the prospect list and give people asignments to help us.
Yes, that's unfortunate but it's a reality. Talad is the main guy who handles prospects, and he doesn't always have the time to give them 100% of his attention. You have applied yesterday. Yesterday! It's crazy to expect a response so quickly. People sometimes wait weeks, but they get their tasks, do an awesome job, and life continues happily. We don't have a professional 24/7 prospect support system. Please deal with this.
This all started cause he couldnt handle the walk to Oja.
What makes you think he could wait 24 hours for a reply to his application.
@Datruth, You have not, and never shall be a spokes person for the players.
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Datruth, I have no idea who you are (atleast not by that name) but you raise many of the same questions that have been running through my head. And when I came up with the answers I felt the same way you do now. Sure I will be ridiculed for what I am about to say. But, there seems to be just a shell of a community here. I have been with PS for nearly 2 years and I do think things have changed.
I used to feel as if each person here mattered. Thinking that "our" voice meant something. And Ill continue to believe that at one point or another it did. But times have changed. Many of the oldbies/ middlebies have been run off with a huge influx of newbies. And I think the devs would rather have it this way. No one with the big heads thinking they have influence or power over anyone. Just new people that are more likely not to complain because they see how nice PS has come along.
It was when I joined the GM team that I started to understand how the world works. Its an oligarchy, a group of people running everthing. And im not just talking about the devs: Prominent GMs can trample on you just as much.
Let me make myself clear, I dont want to ever leave PS... but I feel like I am being kept away (which is in my own head) because I have lost faith in the community overall. At one time thnings were different. Maybe we weren't united but we were so much closer than todays so called community. The community of today is more like a GM sponsored event of "Who can call it a community the longest."
There is atleast one community within PS.. made up of Devs, WTB Devs, and GMs.
One more thing before I get some sleep:
- Please due away with the wish list... Any idea put forth that is good is already "planned" and the others that are not are either stupid or ignored.
Well I have spoken my peace for now... I hope this thread stays open.
Edit: Daruth, of course it does take time to be considered for the dev team the same as it does for the GM team. Thats just how PS, maybe all MMOs, work.
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There are a ton of good threads in the Wishlist - and you'll be surprised at how often they are looked through :) The problem is that only a tiny fractions of those ideas can be implemented at this time, because most of them depend on many features yet to be seen.
I adore the Wishlist. I love seeing ideas, because many of them are so new to me. And I'm sorry if peope feel that their threads are being ignored if they have legitimate ideas. But we can't always comment nor can we stamp a thread with an "Approved!"
Whatever the GM team once was, it no longer is. And that's both welcome and sad.
There's a point to be made here: player input is very very, veryvery welcome. But 1) we have time limits to spend on PS, and 2) inputs do not mean demands. When someone starts being demanding about what they want and how they'll no longer stand it and they want things here and now, that player throws away his voice instead of raising it.
Players are important, sure. But we sure as heck don't "serve" you. We serve PS. Part of that just happens to be a responsibility for keeping the community happy, and we go beyond the call of duty in ensuring that need gets met. So instead of causing problems for us VOLUNTEERS -us people who are doing this for YOU, for FREE, with our own feelings getting smashed to hell in return- why don't you just run along and have fun like everybody else.
Blunt, but Moogs <3
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Just a clarification: I counted 30ish pending applications in the settings department; not prospects. I'd expect most of those to get rejected outright just due to bad/spam applications.
Secondly, donating money isn't exactly the biggest of help at the moment. (in the future, it might be, but not really now) If you know how to program, apply to the programming team; if you can create textures or model in 3D, apply to the graphics teams. (yes, settings, music, and the PR "team" aren't exactly hot-spots...)
Getting rid of the wish list is a horrible idea. Make no mistake, we're not going to just throw whatever ideas are requested into the game, however more than one decent idea has spawned in that thing. Yes, it's often full of spam and people requesting the obvious, but I like to hope that every now and again it's vaguely useful. There hasn't been that many good new suggestions in a while, but I'm optimistic, and it doesn't hurt to keep around.
The community connectedness here is very much a result of tone and how connection attempts are made. When someone starts off a thread with "We want fixes, and we want them now.", yes, they'll be told to go to Hell. On the other hand, if someone finds bugs and actually fixes them, they can become a dev rather easily. Too many people seem to think it'd be a *poof* now you're a dev, thing, and it's not. No, you actually have to contribute for a bit.
The simple statement of "no, this is not a democracy" should not be some sort of shock. Do you really think we'd just implement whatever the players felt like requesting? If a bunch of people said, "hey, dying sucks, can you get rid of it?" the answer is no. The idea that somehow we are working for the players is very strange. Yes, I would love to get good suggestions from players and implement them right away, but that usually doesn't happen. From your prespective, it looks like we're ignoring perfectly valid suggestions, from ours it's often quite the opposite.
This game is ruled by a few members who ultimately decide how it becomes regardless of user input.
Like if we wanted to get rid of Gold altogether, but dev team disagreed, it would never happen, ever.
I'd like to know: Why does this sound odd to you? Seriously, to continue the example (yes, I know it's not a realistic one), gold ore is a perfectly valid thing that one could find inside a giant cave. If a bunch of players, or even all the players, decided that they didn't like it, tough. We put it in there and it's going to stay because we agree with our reasoning. I'm astounded that anyone would assume the contrary. Random people, most of which we don't really know, do not get to decide upon the development process. If, however, there was some problem with the way gold was being used, lets say it was too common or something, then yes, we'd be stupid to ignore that. We highly encourage player input, but please don't think that means we're somehow working for you.
Look, the concepts of us having the final say and you having a say are not mutually exclusive. Yes, of course PlaneShift would never be where it is without players and player input, but you also must understand it would never be where it is if players had the final say on everything. We'd be RuneScape's evil twin if we did that. We are the ones making this thing, and we will decide how it progresses. More than one good idea has come from the Wish List (some in already, some on the waiting list) and I hope that more will follow. However, more than a billion bad ones are there too, and frankly the Wish List's second purpose is to house those there instead of increasing the spam count in our inboxes.
Karyuu: Perfect Moogie quote. ;) Rather nicely sums things up here.
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I enjoy the sudden "I'm a victim!" turn he has taken in the last few posts.
In the beginning:
"we won't stand for this!"
"this is phony!"
"we want it right now!"
"you're all tyrants!"
Now:
"why is everybody attacking me? :'("
If nothing else, it is entertainment. Good morning, world! Now where's my coffee...? ;D
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A simple fact: what's urgent preceeds what's important. think about it: having such a small team developing the game and juggling with so many responsibilities must bring a certain amount of daily tasks that can take over (like keeping the server up, fixing bugs, etc.) so we can continue enjoying the game every day. It's obvious that some very important tasks (like expanding the settings or developing all the skills) will have to be placed after the ones that allow the game to be played at all. It is not urgent that all races have the animationes for them to sit or greet. It's important, but not urgent. When a new skill such as repair is being implemented, making sure it works well and killing the bugs that come up is urgent, and we've seen it: they worked it out pretty quickly considering all the other stuff they got in their plate.
I haven't been around for that long but I feel the community receives all the attention it can get. Otherwise we wouldn't have forums. Our ideas are heard but the time needed to react to them has to be coherent with the tasks that need to be tackled based on the urgency factor. If we're thinking there should be new NPCs or that the map should be changed or that different skills should be developed, we're talking about big changes which need further consideration and discussion, especially if we're talking about someone's vision of a world. And besides, how about the plans we don't know about that are being followed? What if there's going to be a future public transportation system we don't know about yet? Flying creatures? Telportation? Laying out the map has to come first and if for a while we need to do the big sprint between Ojaveda and Hydlaa then so be it, it's part of the process, and, for God's sake, it's not that long!
So, instead of demanding changes, I suggest to make the most out of what we have and be patient. It doesn't mean "get along with everybody" or "be submissive" to "the man". It means that the things you see in PS are part of a process, intended to evolve into something that has already been thought through or at least discussed. Spontaneous changes and adjustments are made but just like our roleplays and events, things are planned with a purpose and steps defined to reach satisfying possible outcomes. When we have a big thing in mind, RP needs certain guidelines and then play it the best way we can.
In the long term, we all benefit from every action the development team take (even the ones we don't immediately like). If what they do is not good enough for you, you can always choose not to participate (just like we have the freedom to refuse to get involved in any RP ingame). It is easy to ignore what others have to go through and it's even easier to take things that are free for granted. Let's not lose perspective here and focus our energy on optimizing the resources we have to make significant contributions to the development of the game.
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Please, I don't see that much of value in this thread. Drop the junk or it will be locked.
But I see value in it, can you meet my wishes now by keeping this thread open? Neither do I see junk, I see well-formed and gramatically correct posts.
Although I agree with Valbrandr and Datruth, especially what he said here: "You're just here to test, and with that, i end this thread, as a memory for the fight of democracy for the players of PS, and for the plea of the people who want to help the Dev's, but get rejected.
For the people, who get shot down, their ideas too far fetched, cause the dev team is Too busy to implement them.
For the wish list section, where pleas can be made, answered only if they go along with the Dev's wishes.
And with that, i submit to their rule and power." I'm not even gonna bother posting my thoughts, since they will only be ignored by lots of the higher ranked people of the game anyway. Like its done at the wishlist section.
(Btw: do people that apply to the team simply get ignored when they are not good enough, or do they get a mail back saying they are not good enough? Cause I would rather have recieved a mail back then just be ignored when I applied several months ago.)
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One small little side note about the wishlist area since it was brought up... As dave mentioned it is/was a messy place but working with Karyuu, I've cleaned it up a bit. By last count, over 1000 posts have been deleted/moved elsewhere to where they are more appropriate simply becuase they were in the wrong section or were duplicates. So it is a much cleaner area. Granted I've got many more pages of archive to read through, but I'm a working on it. This is my little project I have volunteered for, my way of giving back to the game that has given so much to me in more ways than I can ever say in public.
To all, if you see something you don't like, don't simply demand that it be changed. Instead, perhaps set it upon yourself to volunteer to change it. Whether it's writing a fix to a bug in the code, providing player insight onto how the in game world is turning, providng your talents as an artist to the team, the list goes on and on.
Saying something needs to be changed and it needs to be changed "now" only does so much. What really helps is setting it upon yourself to help out in what ever way you feel you can. Also, please don't speak as if you are the voice of the whole. No one has that title. Voice your opinions as your own opinions, let others speak for themselves. And finally, patience is golden. And now this kitty needs his rest. Good night.
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(Btw: do people that apply to the team simply get ignored when they are not good enough, or do they get a mail back saying they are not good enough? Cause I would rather have recieved a mail back then just be ignored when I applied several months ago.)
It depends. If you filled everything in correctly, then you will get a reply back. If you didn't fill everything in correctly, you won't hear anything.
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The worst thing i learned though is that people who question these policies are ridiculed and called annoying and it, EVEN by fellow players, whose opinions i'm fighting for.
You still dont get it do you? Questioning things is essential, but you were not questioning, you were DEMANDING. You say you are fighting for the players, but the thing is, the majority of the players who have posted in this thread do not agree with you. I only saw three people post in support of your comments. So, you are not fighting for our wants and needs, you are taking your own wants and assuming that everyone else feels the same way. Then loudly proclaiming to speak for us. Well sir, you do not speak for me.
This all started over a complaint about the distance to Oja. I can get there in like 5 minutes, for the love of god just go straight man. It's not that far at all.
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even I'm human and I too have my limits
Omfg...
Karyuu? Human? Lies!
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It's true... (http://img150.imageshack.us/img150/5366/bucktardrc0.gif)
Sorry for posting in a frustrated manner. I probably could have replied better a lot of the time, but I felt insulted that someone would insinuate the devs aren't doing enough "action" to show that they care about the players, when everything we are doing is done for the players to enjoy, and people are spending hours every day working on this game. It's like forgetting all the cool things that have been introduced recently and with updates, and sticking with a 'Us Players Are The Lonely Warriors' mentality just because Ojaveda hasn't been made as populated as Hydlaa.
Folks have no idea how much effort goes into building this world, and I guess that's okay. But then saying that it's not enough effort is awful.
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I would like to say thank you all the devs and others how spend a large part of there free time in work on Planeshift.
THANK YOU.
But would also like to point out no I for one don't know what it takes to do what you do, and would not understand if you had the time to explain it to me, so for people like me who don't realise what it means to spend hours a day coding and arty things, think what you do do [work or sports wise] training that sort of thing then actually doing your thing. Then you might get a insight into what they have to do effort wise, so hats off to them for doing something that I or we can't just so we can enjoy this game.
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Folks have no idea how much effort goes into building this world, and I guess that's okay. But then saying that it's not enough effort is awful.
That's a blantant lie, you were never called lazy, you were only told to address the concerns of the public which you lacked, that's it.
I spoke many times of the hard work you all did, the only thing i questioned was addressing the needs of the community.
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You may have never said it in words, but reading your posts, they certainly have the feel of an implied "work faster, harder, now" tone.
A general tip when writing an emial, forum post, etc. Read your post and try to interpret it the most negative way possible. As this is how it will sound to some others that read it. Even if you mean what you have wrote in a completely different way, that doesn't matter if others don't interpret your post in the same way.
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I spoke many times of the hard work you all did, the only thing i questioned was addressing the needs of the community.
That maybe but you have applied for a devs job and now you are waiting to be accepted to help the dev team. Need there be more posts about this issue? Seems to me it is just going in circles.
:) BTW no one asked you to speak for the players or the community. That is something that the players can do for themselves. Though I have agreed with some of your points, I don't think the you are handling this in a very constructive way. So when speaking to the Devs on the forums, just know you are speaking for yourself and not the community. I think all of us would appreciate that.
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I spoke many times of the hard work you all did, the only thing i questioned was addressing the needs of the community.
That maybe but you have applied for a devs job and now you are waiting to be accepted to help the dev team. Need there be more posts about this issue? Seems to me it is just going in circles.
:) BTW no one asked you to speak for the players or the community. That is something that the players can do for themselves. Though I have agreed with some of your points, I don't think the you are handling this in a very constructive way. So when speaking to the Devs on the forums, just know you are speaking for yourself and not the community. I think all of us would appreciate that.
Amen.
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I see the fact that Datruth feels so strongly about the game as an indication that the Devs have done a good job.
I doubt that you would get a fairly heated thread like this about a poorly designed and developed game. People just wouldn't care.
In a strange way, it can be seen as positive feedback.
Greymist
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i have two things to say maybe i'm repeating someone else but i don't want to read through five pages...
datruth... if you don't like it play another race and start complaining about missing animations instead
also the devs do work hard... but can't meet everyone's requirements
look around have you seen the eagle face? Pretty nice aye?
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Finally!The end of the thread. I read all the way through \\o//. And I have to say, while keeping the most possibly open mind ever. That Datruth is mildly correct in some aspects of his...fight? If that's what it can be called. Datruth, you did the right thing by joining the team and, personally, that was the only good idea you had. The others were equally wonderful but put in a way that made it sound like you were fighting the "Man". Might I ask, what "Man" were you fighting? Talad?
And though you never said some things straight out loud, and instead used other words to convey your ideas, then when people put them more bluntly you said that they were all lies, or something of the such.
Ok...i'm going to digress. I don't want to attack like I did just above. So i'll continue with what I was saying. That you were mildly right. I haven't played this game to the fullest extent because I don't have a lot of time on my hands. And though, like you said, they might not being listening fully. At least they listen. And even then I like to have their occasional comments in the forums because Karyuu and Zorbels are funny. And that they are at least READING what we say is good enough for me. I don't think there are many games that have people who take that time out of their day to do even that. So essentially I agree with you, that they don't listen completely, but at least they listen, and though that's not a lot, it's enough. Because i'm not really that picky.
Ok...i'm going to try to give my opinion on what you said Datruth, without being insulting, or as you liked to call it "mudslinging". Please forgive me if it ends up that way.
I'm sorry if some of this seems a little vague and does not connect directly to one specific thing you said, it's more like an overview of everything you said. And I'd use quotes but i'm way to lazy to flip back to the other pages to find everything I wanted.
Your opinions were all valid in a manner of speaking, but put in a way that made them sound, in themselves, mudsling...-ish. It wasn't the normal: "Hey Dev pals, buds, friends, could you listen a little more". Or really anything close to that. And what I said there was a little exagerated, but hopefully you get the point. It was to direct, "you don't ask the lion to not eat you before you give him the steak" (forgive this crude analogy, but I made it up on the spot). Maybe if your posts were a little more...enticing it would attract more :thumbup: 's then :thumbdown: 's. Because you have the right ideas, for the most part. But it's more like you...well like everybody said it's more like you want it NOW and NOW. And never then. And then you kind of wonder why everybody is attacking you, it's kind of like you murdered somebody and then turned all puppy eyes. It's the wrong approach if you ask me.
Yeah, well that's my opionion... heh, my two trias... :whistling: :sweatdrop:
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Folks have no idea how much effort goes into building this world, and I guess that's okay. But then saying that it's not enough effort is awful.
That's a blantant lie, you were never called lazy, you were only told to address the concerns of the public which you lacked, that's it.
This looks like saying we don't produce enough action to me.
You can say you care about a person all day long, but what actual proves it, Action.
There has been some action by the Dev team and moderator team, so i can't say they don't care, they do, probably not enough.
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probably not enough.
Couldn't disagree more. They've made a game public at v. 0.03.0103231 or whatever the hell it's at, and you say they don't care enough? Really, if they didn't care, they'd keep it to a small number of testers, release it at v.1.0 and charge 45$ a month to play it. The community needs have been addressed, maybe not yours. That's a different story. Make a thread about what you want from them, and ask nicely. I doubt the community shares your view. And again you speak for noone but yourself. Them spending all this time on this game for no material reward is more care than you deserve mate. Karyuu isn't paid to sit there and moderate these forums because people like you (and me) can't keep it organized ourselves. She does it out of the goodness of her heart, and so does the rest of the team. To even think that they don't care enough, let alone say it, is stupid. Datruth, I'd like to see you lose sleep over something for 4-6+ (I have no idea) years, get no material rewards, (money) and then have people tell you that you don't care. That's rude. You're lucky Karyuu and the team are nice, I'd have flamed you before you hit the create thread button. I want to see you make half the productive action in a year that Karyuu makes in a day moderating these forums. Grrrr.
And so ends a touching speech by yours truly,
Robinmagus.
I WIN!
EDIT: Disclaimer: This post's contents and opinions were blinded by biased positions I have towards whiny people. If it's totally pointless, damn I still feel better after posting it.
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Why has this thread not been locked? It is offensive to everybody, I think. The Planeshift dev team are OBVIOUSLY committed individuals. It does not take a 99 INT to figure that out.
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Bah its very tiresome... how come either we get posts about how much people disagree with the devs (usually in a radical way) or posts about how much everyone should love them for everything they have done? There is no happy medium, people coming in with thoughtful posts about whats wrong. Just "Hey the devs arent doing what I want" or the even more bothersome "the devs do everything and have no faults so shut up"... neither point of view get anything done.
Edit: Whats there to be offended about? If someone is just making claims that are untrue or they really have no idea, then nothing to get offended about.
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... or the even more bothersome "the devs do everything and have no faults so shut up"...
Whats there to be offended about? If someone is just making claims that are untrue or they really have no idea, then nothing to get offended about.
I don't recall anyone saying that the devs have no faults and I certainly was not offended by anything anyone said. Annoyed? Yes.
So answer me this Valbrandr. What is so wrong with defending a group of developers, who give as much as they have, when someone comes along and shouts about how they need to do more and do it right now? Why shouldn't we be grateful for what they have given us, free of charge?
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you did not ask me but ill give you an answer. nothings wrong about being appreciative twords the devz. nothing at all.......i personally just hate it when people get on all 4's and pucker up thayer lips n await the devs to pull down thayer pants and bend over so they can give it a nice brown-noser kiss its kind of sad pothetic and even if i was a dev it wouldnt like it much.
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I don't recall anyone saying that the devs have no faults and I certainly was not offended by anything anyone said. Annoyed? Yes.
So answer me this Valbrandr. What is so wrong with defending a group of developers, who give as much as they have, when someone comes along and shouts about how they need to do more and do it right now? Why shouldn't we be grateful for what they have given us, free of charge?
For one, who are you? How long have you been here? And what have you seen? I would say those are three good questions. So much has happened within planeshift and if you havent been here long you might just think that everything is just fine. And i never said we shouldnt be grateful and that the devs dont work hard. That has nothing to do with my arguement. What has happened in the past, even when valid points have been brought up.. someone within the community tells the person he/she is wrong or that they shouldnt question what happens here. And these are not even the devs or GMs or anything like that. Many are people who are just merely stopping in because the devs have made something nice here.
I made a statement earlier about the lack of community these days. And I beleive it has something to do with the older players feeling neglected in a way with the influx of new players.. which will continue to happen. But with the smaller amount of people before, we were a closer nit group that was an actual community. But that has kind of gone away. The Close nit group seems to be gone, replaced by people who are coming to PS as it becomes more like many of the finer polished MMOs. They are here to just play and have fun but not get involved personally with the game itself. When you reach this point we can have a better conversation.
In that community I spoke of, "we" had influence. If we felt strongly about one thing or another, there could be some reconciling... I am not saying we "forced" anyone to do anything.. but we had the power of influence before. Now because of the way the community has splintered, its not as prevalent of a voice.
Edit: Sorry didnt read it at first. Capprion- Agreed
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you did not ask me but ill give you an answer. nothings wrong about being appreciative twords the devz. nothing at all.......i personally just hate it when people get on all 4's and pucker up thayer lips n await the devs to pull down thayer pants and bend over so they can give it a nice brown-noser kiss its kind of sad pothetic and even if i was a dev it wouldnt like it much.
Surely you are not insinuating that I have done this? Can someone not show their appreciation without being called a brown-noser? I've never kissed anyones ass in my life and I dont plan to start now. I just appreciate the ability to be able to play this game in it's current state. If you read more into my words than that, then you need some serious help my friend. ::)
For one, who are you?
Just a guy who got tired of listening to someone whine and moan about how this game isnt everything they thought it should be. Anyways, what does it matter who I am? Just because you have been here longer than me does not make your opinion any more valid.
How long have you been here? And what have you seen?... So much has happened within planeshift and if you havent been here long you might just think that everything is just fine.
See above. Again, what does it matter? To answer, I just recently found out about this game, but plan on hearing my opinion for a long time to come. Did you honestly expect that things would stay the same, when you have thousands of people signed up and hundreds that actually play on a daily basis? How could they possibly address everyone issues like before?
...someone within the community tells the person he/she is wrong or that they shouldnt question what happens here. And these are not even the devs or GMs or anything like that. Many are people who are just merely stopping in because the devs have made something nice here.
Perhaps you did not read my posts. I have said, and I quote, "Questioning things is essential, but you were not questioning, you were DEMANDING" ("you" of course referring to Datruth).
I made a statement earlier about the lack of community these days. And I beleive it has something to do with the older players feeling neglected in a way with the influx of new players.. which will continue to happen. But with the smaller amount of people before, we were a closer nit group that was an actual community. But that has kind of gone away.
I completly see where you are coming from. However, that does not mean that the older players should be able to make demands and be a general PItA. Things change man, and as more people become aware of this game, expect it to change alot more.
They are here to just play and have fun but not get involved personally with the game itself. When you reach this point we can have a better conversation.
Please forgive me if I took this out of context, but that second sentence sounds a bit elitist to me. Can you only have an inteligent conversation with long time members of this community?
I may have only just found this game/community recently, but that does not make my opinion any less valid.
Edited for language. --Karyuu
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Surely you are not insinuating that I have done this? Can someone not show their appreciation without being called a brown-noser? I've never kissed anyones ass in my life and I dont plan to start now. I just appreciate the ability to be able to play this game in it's current state. If you read more into my words than that, then you need some serious help my friend. Roll Eyes
Dont read into anything.. I never said that it was you. I was talking about it in general.
Anyways, what does it matter who I am? Just because you have been here longer than me does not make your opinion any more valid.
Actually it does in regard to my own statements. I believe that Datruth is new as well correct? But my original post would make more sense if you were here longer. We have went through alot in two years.
Please forgive me if I took this out of context, but that second sentence sounds a bit elitist to me. Can you only have an inteligent conversation with long time members of this community?
Elitist? wow full circle here. When "we" got here 2 years ago we had to fight for the very same things. You havent been here of course so you wouldnt know what has happened. You dont understand what has happened to the political makeup of PS because you just havent been here. Its not an attack or anything just stating the truth.
Sorry to have to give the "when I was young" speech.. but when we got here there were a group of individuals who thought they were "special".. thankfully beause of this change, many of those people left. Most of the "oldbies" that are still here are the good people that were not the elitists. And just to clarify, I am not an "oldbie", Im more or less a "Middlebie" :P... With people like Jekkar, Lordbug, Zan and obviously many others. These are mostly people who got here toward the end of the MB days or the beginning of the CB days. My point is, is that you dont know me.
But lets get back on topic about the community and how its stayed the same/ changed in the time we have been here. I dont want the thread to close so soon :).
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Can I ask for concrete examples of the voice players had two years ago and the voice they have now?
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DermorianJeston:
1) We do not have hundreds logging in on a daily basis, get your facts strait.
2) I did demand, you're making me seem bad for being DEMANDING, but incase you didn't know, CERTAIN things have to be demanded, so don't say i was wrong in DEMANDING a voice for the players and player input.
How else can you achieve that goal, without demanding it, ask nicely?
So do you walk in front of a monarch and ask for his throne?
Please dermorian, read my stuff before you comment about me, it shows your lack of knowledge about my stance when you comment.
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If you ask a monarch for his throne, you will get laughed at. If you demand it, you get your head cut off.
But we're not that savage ;}
You're in no position to demand anything. We love player input, but demands put you in another category entirely. We owe you nothing except the promise that we will put out work of the best quality we can achieve.
You want more merchants in Ojaveda? So do we. Can we make it happen immediately? No. What else is the problem? What is it that you want? Specifically, and none of that -I want the players to be heard- generality. What is it that you are specifically asking for the devs to listen about? We are here, and we are listening. What now?
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If you ask a monarch for his throne, you will get laughed at. If you demand it, you get your head cut off.
But we're not that savage ;}
You're in no position to demand anything. We love player input, but demands put you in another category entirely. We owe you nothing except the promise that we will put out work of the best quality we can achieve.
You want more merchants in Ojaveda? So do we. Can we make it happen immediately? No. What else is the problem? What is it that you want? Specifically, and none of that -I want the players to be heard- generality. What is it that you are specifically asking for the devs to listen about? We are here, and we are listening. What now?
I want you to give up the mentality listed above that has been underlined.
And i am getting my head cut off, just look at this thread, peoplle attacking left and right, and you yourself who starts to mudsling, you can't consider that kind of treatment proper or the way intelligent people should converse with one another.
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Thanks, but no thanks. This is our game and we build it how we want. 100% satisfaction or your money back :)
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Thanks, but no thanks. This is our game and we build it how we want. 100% satisfaction or your money back :)
You have to admit, atleast this thread made people more active in the forums, just look at the priority it's getting by the players.
Wonder why?
Because the one lifeline of planseshift, THE PLAYERS, are listening to ideas and asking themselves, "Hey wait, why is that? Why can't I?"
IF all this was for nothing, i can atleast say, we know our positions, testers, and we know yours, Hard working Supreme rulers.
We should not Ask, nor demand for change, and if we have an idea... put in in the wish list...........
We should just play the game, no need to ask for change, change will come in time, as dictated by the higher ups.
Till then, Go to the gold mine and dig away.
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This thread did not raise activity in the forum. All it did was make the devs notice it and reply with how much they dislike your approach. I don't think that's a win.
Yes, you do know your positions. Guess what, everyone knew before you, and we didn't get threads going -OMG I'm just a tester! Change that right now!- until you came along. This is the purpose of the community. Tester first, player second.
Are you unhappy about this? Maybe you should look for another game. This is how this one works. You can't expect yourself to waltz in here and change everything around.
And you still haven't answered my question: what is it that you specifically want the devs to do? You have a voice, and you are making general demands such as "listen to it". But what do you want? If the devs were building the game to your every whim, what would you ask of them?
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If you ask a monarch for his throne, you will get laughed at. If you demand it, you get your head cut off.
You're in no position to demand anything. We love player input, but demands put you in another category entirely. We owe you nothing except the promise that we will put out work of the best quality we can achieve.
I want you to give up the mentality listed above that has been underlined.
I want a way for players to influence the result of the game, to add input, to make it hand by hand with the devs.
You could start off with making the NPC's a bit smarter, stopping the fall off the world bug, and making 2 portals at the end of the death realm, one that leads to hydlaa, one to oja.
All i want is for you to listen to the players and implement what the majority wants.
Funny suggesting huh ;D ;D
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Yeah but I bet the majority would turn this into a power levelers paradise... The majority is not always right.. though it would be nice if they were :). (in a perfect world)
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We should not Ask, nor demand for change, and if we have an idea... put in in the wish list...........
We should just play the game, no need to ask for change, change will come in time, as dictated by the higher ups.
Till then, Go to the gold mine and dig away.
He understands! Now that that's done, who is going to lock this? :)
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We should not Ask, nor demand for change, and if we have an idea... put in in the wish list...........
We should just play the game, no need to ask for change, change will come in time, as dictated by the higher ups.
Till then, Go to the gold mine and dig away.
He understands! Now that that's done, who is going to lock this? :)
Why santiago, feel threatened by the exchange of ideas?
I wonder why you of all people would be? ;)
Edit: By the way, the one person that hasn't replied here that i'd like very much to would be Talad. Hearing his opinion about this would just make my day a whole lot better, I really wanna here what he has to say about this.
So if you devs arn't too busy, anyone mind sending him this way?
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Now that that's done, who is going to lock this? :)
Oh, oh... I will! o/
I thought this one would fizzle out on its own. Guess not. Lock.
1) We do not have hundreds logging in on a daily basis, get your facts strait.
Yes, we actually do. Average online is usually over a hundred. Unless all those people are on 24/7, we have some logging on/off at different times and probably a couple hundred people in total, at different times. (we really need better stats, though)
Why has this thread not been locked? It is offensive to everybody, I think. The Planeshift dev team are OBVIOUSLY committed individuals. It does not take a 99 INT to figure that out.
Don't you just love irony? It's a long rambling thread complaining about the lack of a player voice, yet somehow the voice is allowed in this thread. If you had no voice, this would've been deleted long ago. You very much have a voice here. (sometimes loud and annoying) However, we have no obligation to listen to it, and if you continute down you run the risk of making us ignore you more often. Datruth, just think about how this all sounds. Your second post in this thread contains this:
You have to understand something though.
Sometimes what you implement impedes the Players.
We don't like going on long walks, and we're letting that be known.
I'd think one of the nicest and most intelligent persons on this board would understand what i meant.
You've always been a fair person, so hear us out.
We want fixes, and we want them now.
We won't settle for the Tester theory anymore.
What do you expect will be the response? That's one of the more arrogant statements I've heard around here in a while. Frankly, I'd prefer to simply ban anyone who refuses to report the most basic of testing, but that's probably more extreme than the rest of us. I see no posts from you in the bugs forum or on BugTracker, and my guess is you won't ever be there. You've been here for about 6 weeks (based on forum registration) and you've already got an ego the size of mount Everest.
You want to give "input" but you haven't the damnedest clue what that would be. Complaining about making to citys not directly next to eachother is not input, it's whining of the worst kind. Demanding bugfixes is not input, it's just plain arrogant.
Let me sum things up:
1) We encourage constructive player input.
2) Most players don't do #1 at all, this thread included.
3) We have no obligation to listen to your input. If you give us crappy ideas or whining, we aren't going to listen to you.
4) People who can't stand that the players are not running the show should leave. No, you're not in control here. You can't show up somewhere, loiter around for a handful of weeks, or any time period, and just start demanding things.
Threads like these are odd. They're like self-fulfilling prophecies and self-proving theories, all rolled into one. You say you don't have a voice, and eventually the thread is locked. We say your voice isn't always as thrilling as you assume it to be, and the posts here prove that. I don't really care what you convince yourself. We are making a game here because we want to. It's free forever, and players even have the rare posibility to talk to a few devs. If you're mad that this isn't what you want, good for you. If you have nothing constructive to say, don't say anything at all.
Edited to add:
Oh, a request was made of a post from Talad. I thought I might as well just paste what he said in the other thread:
In my opinion the game is made as we think it will look great, but with many hints and tiips from the players. We often look at the forums and wishlist to understand what people want. We have some basic guidelines that will not change whatever players say (like the Player Killing argument), but in general we are open to discussions, like we are inside the team.
Honestly, I really don't even know what this thread is about. You're demanding bugfixes and "a voice", but I don't really see anything of substance here. This isn't exactly a nice little discussion, and if you ever want to give "input" it had better be done as such or expect another locked thread. These forums are getting more and more spitefull, and less and less respectfull. Please discuss, not demand.
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Datruth, you very obviously want your own "player monarchy," so here is what you do:
Grab PlaneShift's code, find yourself a pair of artists, and build your own game with its own community. But leave this one alone. PlaneShift isn't yours, it's Talad's. We are only here to help him build his vision of the world. You don't own Yliakum and you don't own us volunteers to tell us how to work. If you ask nicely with a decent well-thought out suggestion, you will be listened to. So until you learn how to behave, please have a great time, somewhere else. And guess what?
You could start off with making the NPC's a bit smarter, stopping the fall off the world bug, and making 2 portals at the end of the death realm, one that leads to hydlaa, one to oja.
Do you think that making NPCs smarter takes a day? A week? Do you think it's a matter of clicking some buttons on a computer that automatically calculates how smart an NPC is? The overwhelming majority of us are not professionals to create World of Warcraft within a month. Most of us learn as we build and create.
So stop making our jobs harder than they already are. Stop causing grief to us volunteers, stop waving your hands and pretending there is an angry mob behind you sharing your every exact concern. You are a single player who thinks you are owed something, when you were instead invited to share unfinished Yliakum and see it progress.
As I said before:
We owe you nothing except the promise that we will put out work of the best quality we can achieve.