PlaneShift

Gameplay => General Discussion => Topic started by: daehaz on September 13, 2006, 03:49:32 am

Title: Save the Evil Ones
Post by: daehaz on September 13, 2006, 03:49:32 am
Which of these can we find more often: Dwarfettes of Evil Guys?

Since I started playing (about 6 months ago), I think I could use my fingers to count evil characters I've met (as any of my characters), and my other hand goes for the dwarfettes... Actually one finger in each hand goes to a certain evil dwarfette...

The point is: why is it so uncommon to find evil characters? I'm gonna be blunt on this and a bit simplistic, if I may. The problem behind not having more evil characters is, IMHO, bad RP:

a) Because RPing evil is hard(er) and many players don't expect it to be so they start playing evil but they don't go through with it when it starts getting more challenging.

b) Because RPing evil gets even harder when other players can't see the difference between OOC and IC  (seriously, though, I'm not a serial killer... hmm, I should make a T-shirt with that phrase).

c) Because many who claim their characters are evil don't do anything at all except saying "[my char is evil]" or, even worse, they claim to be the incarnation of evil (Lord of Darkness? Master of the Shadows? Prince of Hell? Mistress of Chaos?) but they have no problem with being surrounded and being friends with all the goodie-goodies they meet while camping a rogue or working on their training. But if you ask them, they are reeeeally evil (and they don't do GOD-RP, of course...).

d) Because many players have little tolerance for evil. They forget to stay IC sometimes, letting perfect opportunities to RP with an evil guy go and some other times they just don't let evil plots to (un)tangle. For example:

Victim: I've been cursed!

"Hero": I know a spell. *blinks* Done!

Victim: ???

Player behind the evildoer: >:(

*   *   *

How can you help Save the Evil Ones?

- Try being one. Create an alt. Choose an evil purpose and go for it. A common mistake is to think that you must wear black robes and be part of a dark religion or be an uber character nobody can defeat and whose mission is to take over the world. No, no need for that. Just think of something bad, do it and then find a way in which you can make people know what you've done (without actually saying things like "I'm a murderer").

- Do IC evil, not OOC evil. Stealing items from other players and then deleting your alt is not good RP. The point of playing evil is to throw something that would spice things up. As a player behind an evil character you should attempt to make other characters talk about you, run away or attack you on sight. You become an entertainer. So, by playing evil you are providing fun for others and you'll get yours in return.

- Do evil, don't just say you're evil. Actions generate reactions and both are needed in RP. Think of what makes your character evil and find evil things to do. Make enemies, plot revenges against them, make more enemies on the way. The possibilities are unlimited.

- If you're a good character, take the opportunity to come up to that bad guy buying training from Harnquist and say "Get out of here, you pile of ulber crap!". This won't necessarily end up in a duel, but it's important that we all play our characters consistently.


Finally,

Save the Evil Ones! Yliakum needs them! You need them!

Aaaand I'm done ranting.
Title: Re: Save the Evil Ones
Post by: Rethius on September 13, 2006, 04:06:55 am
Aye aye... full agreement, its not easy being evil and hated.... :thumbdown:



... wow.... I feel so small in comparison to that rant..... Oh well... Im done.
Title: Re: Save the Evil Ones
Post by: zanzibar on September 13, 2006, 06:43:31 am
Aye aye... full agreement, its not easy being evil and hated.... :thumbdown:



... wow.... I feel so small in comparison to that rant..... Oh well... Im done.



Especially when people who RP "good" characters in-game resort to OOC and out of game measures to deal with you.  Yeah.
Title: Re: Save the Evil Ones
Post by: RayvenD on September 13, 2006, 09:12:10 am
yeah i play a character who although not outright evil, is definately not what you would call 'good.'  He is foul-mouthed, obnoxious, thieving, gambling, and sometimes a murderer. what happens when i rp well in my character? "i'm going to report you to a gm for that"

that's all i need to say.
Title: Re: Save the Evil Ones
Post by: zanzibar on September 13, 2006, 09:22:46 am
yeah i play a character who although not outright evil, is definately not what you would call 'good.'  He is foul-mouthed, obnoxious, thieving, gambling, and sometimes a murderer. what happens when i rp well in my character? "i'm going to report you to a gm for that"

that's all i need to say.



Yeah.  I was even banned for a month a while ago because a guild petitioned one of the Game Masters en mass through the forum.  They said that I wouldn't stop bad mouthing them in game.  Well guess what, my character had a grudge against your guild!

So yeah, some people just don't get it.
Title: Re: Save the Evil Ones
Post by: Peacer on September 13, 2006, 09:52:53 am
/me huggles daehaz

Thank you... many times being evil also means that the character put's himself above everyone else in importance and would do anything to survive himself not caring about others...

A rich man which you stated before that they don't need a dark relegion or something to be evil, This welldressed evil rich guy who liked to use his power for abuse could be enough.

And if you expect your evil deeds to be fulfilled for gods sake don't do it in front of harnquist where usually 30 other good people stand there and are able to spoil your plans... >.< take the sick tired poor and helpless to an ally and abuse!!!

@zanz: happens to me too some time when disagreements arise between my character and theirs they go into an ooc rant with me <.<
Title: Re: Save the Evil Ones
Post by: zanzibar on September 13, 2006, 10:26:07 am
I don't think that you have to put yourself above others in order to be evil.  You can acheive a certain level of complexity beyond that, I think.
Title: Re: Save the Evil Ones
Post by: Peacer on September 13, 2006, 10:29:06 am
@zanz: I'm talking about the characters mind, e.g. He thinks that he's better than everyone else and deserves more... get me? :)
Title: Re: Save the Evil Ones
Post by: SovHed on September 13, 2006, 12:31:33 pm
@ Daehaz: Yes you are totally right.. There are very few RPers in Planeshift. Oh sorry i mean there are very few EVIL Rpers in Planeshift.
Its not easy to RP evil. We have found that with many recruits who say "I want to be evil and mean" Then they go and PL and meet the "goody goody" Pl crowd and abandon evil because there are so few of us. Bleh to them

@peacer: You agree but i dont see you being evil.

@RayvenD: Havnt seen you.. You dont sound too evil though :D

@ the topic: Totally agree. Here are the stats for Laanx server atm... Chars: 280000ish Evil: 50 Good: 279950
There you have it.
Title: Re: Save the Evil Ones
Post by: TestLab on September 13, 2006, 12:36:27 pm
I hear you, I hear you.

My character is not evil, but not the nicest guy in earth either. I like doing good deeds, but sometimes I like doing something bad also (keeps people on ther toes).

Anyway, The other day somebody dropped a SW Dagger. of course, I was as fast as light to get it. Had the guy for a week telling me to give it back and that he would report me to a GM. Told him to talk to the GM. He seems to have given up.

People thinks that everybody should be nice to each other. Well, if somebody is stupid enough to drop a SW Dagger I'm not going to be stupid enough to give it back ;)

By the way, I was nice and gave it to a friend as a pressent :D
Title: Re: Save the Evil Ones
Post by: RayvenD on September 13, 2006, 12:39:40 pm
As i said, 'Frak Griffonsfire' isn't evil in the true sense of the word, he is immoral, but if being immoral has people threatening to report, then what chance do evil players have? It seems to me that everybody is encouraging roleplay in PS unless roleplay includes doing anything other than be all happy and nice and a pillar of society, and i include devs and gms in this aswell.
Title: Re: Save the Evil Ones
Post by: Santiago on September 13, 2006, 12:56:20 pm
I think the issue is because people are unable to distinguish IC and OOC unsociable behavour.

OOC "evil" (for example, verbal abuse clearly not roleplaying) is not allowed in the game. But IC "evil" of the same sort very much should be. The problem is that most people do not want to be on the receiving end of evil RP, and will report things they do not like as OOC to the GMs. It is also a problem with "evil" characters not knowing clearly the boundaries of OOC and IC. In my opinion, it is the responsibility of anyone playing evil to make perfectly clear they are roleplaying.

This is just a theory, in any case, because I do not spend time ingame to see the situation firsthand. But generally I think this is what happens within online games.
Title: Re: Save the Evil Ones
Post by: Peacer on September 13, 2006, 01:34:56 pm
@peacer: You agree but i dont see you being evil.

ignorance is funny
Title: Re: Save the Evil Ones
Post by: RilucH on September 13, 2006, 02:05:43 pm
being evil is more diffical ,specially when you really go on making evil things ,becouse too many gamers have a aesy" /report",before tray to understand the evil character by themselves , and the gm sometimes without asking you what happens ,just amenazate...(stop inmediatly of....or suffer the consecuences...) my character is evil and of course i  do evil things ,and becouse that....i been in serius troublems...by dueling with any reason ....by steal a weapon to someone telling him im going to repair it.,,,,(they make me it give it back!!!!....  )--hey man!!! im evil..let me do evil things!!!!! is bored to be all goodness ,all peace and love between players,there must be bad guys and the bad guys  do bad things,last thing ive done acossing and chasing a character.(looking always the other character  semi-hidden from darkness),well troublems again....is diffical have a evil rp character on planeshift,i think they want a peaceful land ,full of peace and love flowers and birds singing and a rainbow across the sky,they told me that my behavior can make others player take out wish of play pshift,well i tell you when i started a 5 moths ago ,the main reason that make me go on is that i suffer evil things on my own flesh ,and that gives mores desire of keep on playing,not to leave ,and take revenge.
from this corner,,,i ask gm let the evil characters do evil things,as someone says ,it seems you only want evil players,but only evil by the saying,becouse you see that "evil" characters resting in peace and talking friendly with the more good lawful players...so please
LET THE EVILS ONES BE EVIL....PLEASE
and the newbies must know that are bad and good character players in -game,and educate to players to do not report by foolish thing or things that your evil character ought to do....i never ever have seen an evil characters,picking flowers or having tea on a pic.nic
the evils ones ,lies,betray,kill,have no respect (always keeping the main respect to the rela player)have no good manners,or have good manners when they want,they are interested,they are rude...(dont report me anymore for beig rude,,becouse my character is)
Title: Re: Save the Evil Ones
Post by: zog on September 13, 2006, 02:14:21 pm
@zanz: I'm talking about the characters mind, e.g. He thinks that he's better than everyone else and deserves more... get me? :)

Peacer ...that's megalomania ...not necessarily evil, but not nice ,either


Riluch ...I've seen your "evil" you badmouth people, then you start making ooc insults ...not the best RP

but, in all ...yes, there SHOULD be more evil RP ingame ...it is a definate lack
Title: Re: Save the Evil Ones
Post by: Santiago on September 13, 2006, 02:18:24 pm
If you are roleplaying evil, and your character tricks somebody and steals their weapon, that is evil. And there is nothing wrong with it! :) And should not be punished in an OOC fashion, as long as you are roleplaying and not being OOC yourself. But if you were to abuse a game bug to steal the weapon, that is obviously much different.
Title: Re: Save the Evil Ones
Post by: RilucH on September 13, 2006, 02:44:52 pm
is a insult tell a dwarf when he ask you to leave becouse he was first....)(the npc have no owner),tell him :"sorry, i dindt saw ,you ´re too small, i though you were a bug..."
is a insult tell soemone "better leave if you dont want to die"
is a insult tell someone female character that is fatter than before?
i think i do not insult i fight with words and plays with the irony,and my game is try to set upset the other character with words to make me heat and make born bad fellings against my character,i understand it can be not nice sometimes,but i think that the way must be the evil rp ,i think have not to be nice.
but i have never ever insulted anyone directly never ever have said thinks like (shi* fu* su* a*s*le* idiot ) etc etc etc,becouse my character is rude ,but me,the real one isnt,im and educated person and i like respect  all and being respected too) i have been insulted directly in-game ,and i have never reported that.
;D ;D the steling weapon was like this :
i shout near harnquist that i repair weapon for free,any weapong,well someone get there and gave me her better weapon and a kit,when ready i runaway to the arena,but my evil action desafortunatly was short. >:(
what is wrong with that???i lie and steal ,im sorry for the one who trust in me,but in rp you must know i n who you trust,or as the gm says if you trust anyone "suffer the consecuences"
my last word is that many players dont let grow evil characters,but they dont do it rplaying ,they do reporting and sometimes telling lies too.(is MORE evil say lies about an evil character)THINK ABOUT IT

( :oops: santi)
Title: Re: Save the Evil Ones
Post by: Anfa on September 13, 2006, 03:33:45 pm
;D ;D the steling weapon was like this :
i shout near harnquist that i repair weapon for free,any weapong,well someone get there and gave me her better weapon and a kit,when ready i runaway to the arena,but my evil action desafortunatly was short. >:(
what is wrong with that???i lie and steal ,im sorry for the one who trust in me,but in rp you must know i n who you trust,or as the gm says if you trust anyone "suffer the consecuences"

There is nothing wrong with it as long as the thief has his challenge on auto-accept and if caught and killed [or yields] returns the stolen weapon...to rp a thief that can never be caught and punished or forced to return the stolen goods....? [not good RP]

Just my two trias worth..
Title: Re: Save the Evil Ones
Post by: Nikodemus on September 13, 2006, 04:16:45 pm
The worst in all this is the fact the owning rules and lack of mulitia which would respect the law is OOc by itself. Now try to steal, when no matter what you do it will be OOC dues to the fat that owning rules are OOC ;P And so we enter a swamp of mixed IC and OOC. Being evil but only and ever in IC way is really hard.
Title: Re: Save the Evil Ones
Post by: zhai on September 13, 2006, 04:49:30 pm
I think that if you want to play evil you gotta think of two things:

A) RPing evil doesn't mean you gotta be a punk: Stealing items will be in the OOC borderline because there is no way for the victim to get the item back. If there was an IC way, it should be allowed or if you give the person the opportunity to find it or get it back it would be a more complete RP on your part. Besides, you don't have to actually steal anything at all. It's enough if you RP that you do, pickpocketting, for example. You can use a /roll command to determine success and if you get a certain number your victim may be able to realize what you tried to do. In any case you would be giving people something to talk about.

and,

B) RPing evil doesn't you have to do random crazy things: saying I insult people, I challenge random people (without even talking to them before), or I bring ulbernauts to populated areas doesn't necessarily qualify as "good" evil. Evil characters don't have to act like spoiled children. Your character can be a very lawful evil character. Their bad deed would need to be carefully planned. I like the idea of making enemies and RPing with them one at a time, planning evil things for each one of them.


As for the dwarfettes... I know 6 (and one of them is an alt of mine :D).




Title: Re: Save the Evil Ones
Post by: eldoth_terevan on September 13, 2006, 05:02:12 pm
This thread kept reminding me of something all night, and I finally remembered: Walpurgis XIII by Mike Resnick. I think anyone here interested in this subject should read this short but fascinating fiction novel. Also very good, though not necessarily concerned with evil exclusively is Santiago by the same author.
Title: Re: Save the Evil Ones
Post by: Narure on September 13, 2006, 05:23:55 pm
Some characters will evil things for the attention mostly, so will tend to do things such as bring ulbers to harni, rob people at harni and just generaly be evil around harni because thats where they get most attention. I dont know if im just very bad at it but ive never found it hard to be evil and dont get the fuss. Though i do get reported alot nothing ever comes of it. Oh and i am a very nice player in my opinion.
Title: Re: Save the Evil Ones
Post by: Santiago on September 13, 2006, 05:39:33 pm
This thread kept reminding me of something all night, and I finally remembered: Walpurgis XIII by Mike Resnick. I think anyone here interested in this subject should read this short but fascinating fiction novel. Also very good, though not necessarily concerned with evil exclusively is Santiago by the same author.

What an odd coincidence. :)
Title: Re: Save the Evil Ones
Post by: eldoth_terevan on September 13, 2006, 05:50:29 pm
This thread kept reminding me of something all night, and I finally remembered: Walpurgis XIII by Mike Resnick. I think anyone here interested in this subject should read this short but fascinating fiction novel. Also very good, though not necessarily concerned with evil exclusively is Santiago by the same author.

What an odd coincidence. :)

Yes, I was a little curious if you would say something... :) I will stop hijacking this thread now. But the reason the discussion/debate on evil will continue long into the future is because it is not simple. Hence my bringing up that novel. Thank you.
Title: Re: Save the Evil Ones
Post by: RilucH on September 13, 2006, 06:07:28 pm
I think that if you want to play evil you gotta think of two things:

A) RPing evil doesn't mean you gotta be a punk: Stealing items will be in the OOC borderline because there is no way for the victim to get the item back. If there was an IC way, it should be allowed or if you give the person the opportunity to find it or get it back it would be a more complete RP on your part.

-Look,i dont have to give the solution to the trouble i cause served in tray and solutionated,the victim must ask for me,answer me,search for restore his item or restore his honour.i made a cause,now the other side envolved, must have a effect,the main in rp (AS I SEE) is the cause-effect reaction,and that is what i search for in others,and believe me, i have made many friend this ways,and many enemies.
b-there is not must be a reason for being evil or make evil things ,(a thief in real life ,sometimes steals without reason why,so it dont have to be justificated in-game if i plays evil character and do injustificated pranks)and the rules must be applicated always and not to covenience.
-Is not easy to identificate a childhood roleplay with a evil rplay,the victim always intentents that the evil player give some explanation of his acts,and the question is silly by itself, the answer is that the character is evil

my last trouble begun when a dwarf intents sell to a friend a ruined battle axe by 3 k ,i was informed and i speaks not politely at this person not to sell weapons at excesive pryce,i told the rules of 25 % over the original selling price,all this  arrive at a GM and its answer was this: that rule was an advice in the forums and that was an as indicative rule and ,what set me congealed was that told me  that yliakum has undergone a great inflation.... somebody  explains me  this please- the rules as I see that they are applied to greater or smaller rigor depending on who broke it.... Who are the judge to do worth the rules
the rules of the forum are rules or are behavior advice?
the rules of the forum change of strict rules to behavior advice depending on the person who this implying in the question. it is what I see
  

c:punk=anarchy
i believe that the chaotic evil needs some anarchy to break the peace.
Title: Re: Save the Evil Ones
Post by: Maerghaine on September 13, 2006, 06:16:34 pm
Ok.  You didn't ask for it, but here are my two trias worth:

1.  Personally, I am fairly chaotic, good.  (Think of Robin Hood)  If you drop gold ore in the mine, I will most likely pick it up.  If you tell me it was an accident, i will most likely return it.  I have collected "stashes" left by greedy people, who most likely intended to return for them, but at the same time have helped people who have lost everything in their inventory through no fault of their own, and have added to their things when some were lost indefinately.  That doesn't make me bad or good, but human (humanoid).

2.  Some people create evil characters and expect people to flock to them and be their best buddies.  I don't invite thieves into my home because they may steal from me.  My character doesn't want to associate with evil-doers for the same reason.  This doesn't mean i don't appreciate your RP, or not like you OOC; it simply means my character doesn't want to be around you.  There are other characters who are not evil, that my character does not wish to associate with for many reasons.  If you choose to play a certain manner, expect the consequences of how other characters will react to you.  Some people don't want to be around my character because they a. think i'm a "goody two shoes", b. can't accept my promiscuous attitude, c. can't allow for occasional slips in syntax (accidentally saying something out of char without using []).  Humanoids are judgemental, me included.

If you choose to be always good, or even sometimes good, expect some people to sneer at you.  If you choose to be always evil, accept that some (or maybe most) will not like you.  However, if you are evil or good, for heaven's sake do not continually /tell, follow, or otherwise be continually annoying to someone who is spending hours simply trying to avoid you....THAT is harrassment, and it has nothing to do with IC.

do with this what you wish..
Maerghaine
Title: Re: Save the Evil Ones
Post by: Mindari on September 13, 2006, 06:23:22 pm
my opinion is that it is best to not even think about good/evil crap, and simply reacte to each event as you think you should, without  thinking "im evil i will do XXXX" without trying to act realistic responces.  even an unkind person isnt going to insult every single person they meet
Title: Re: Save the Evil Ones
Post by: zanzibar on September 13, 2006, 06:50:57 pm
The line between IC and OOC is just plain dangerous.  This one time, I incinerated a fenki infront of Harniquist.  When she /spawned (back then, you could use a cheat to warp directly to Harniquist at any time), I made the remark:  "*sniff* Does anyone smell burnt cat?"  In response, she made a petition about me to a Game Master.

Another time, I was with a friend in the tavern.  I half accused another character of being involved with a relatively dislikeable underground organization.  What happened then was her real life boyfriend showed up at the tavern, made a bunch of crude insults at me, then told me he wanted to fight me.  So I walk outside (unarmed).  As soon as I step out, I get challenged.  I equip my daggers, then accept the challenge.  He did this little dance while I just stood in one place.  He ran at me, I hit him, he ran a safe distance away.  He ran at me again and I finished him off.  The result?  Five minutes of insulting tells where he, among other things, accuses me of cheating in the fight.  He would later come back and "/me spits in Shalmaneser's face".  I "/me dodges effortlessly" of course, but do you think that his actions were IC or OOC?
Title: Re: Save the Evil Ones
Post by: Maerghaine on September 13, 2006, 07:04:26 pm
my opinion counts for little, but since you asked..

I do not think your comment was "reportable"...if indeed, that was the entire event.  (i even think it's funny)

i think the boyfriend's actions, while excessive were not OOC, as i have spent much more than 5 minutes avoiding...irritants, who i never thought to "report", but put on ignore.  i have gone the long way arount the plaza just to avoid someone i knew was "hanging out at harnquists" to get from the arena to the new oja road gate.   The acid test, for me, is, did either one of these people come back to bother you again, the next day?  or the next?

also in my opinion, his taunting you without accepting a challenge from you is just lame.  since tells are considered OOC, his comments in a tell, are allowed to be OOC.
Title: Re: Save the Evil Ones
Post by: zanzibar on September 13, 2006, 08:00:33 pm
All tells are assumed to be OOC, unless your're whispering to someone standing next to you.
Title: Re: Save the Evil Ones
Post by: RayvenD on September 13, 2006, 08:49:33 pm


2.  Some people create evil characters and expect people to flock to them and be their best buddies.  I don't invite thieves into my home because they may steal from me.  My character doesn't want to associate with evil-doers for the same reason. 

'Ere then kitty, why d'ye 'ave a theif in that there thing that it wuz which it wuz that you is callin' ye guild then thurr feller-lady? ;)
Title: Re: Save the Evil Ones
Post by: Rethius on September 13, 2006, 09:46:09 pm
I think that if you want to play evil you gotta think of two things:

A) RPing evil doesn't mean you gotta be a punk: Stealing items will be in the OOC borderline because there is no way for the victim to get the item back. If there was an IC way, it should be allowed or if you give the person the opportunity to find it or get it back it would be a more complete RP on your part. Besides, you don't have to actually steal anything at all. It's enough if you RP that you do, pickpocketting, for example. You can use a /roll command to determine success and if you get a certain number your victim may be able to realize what you tried to do. In any case you would be giving people something to talk about.

and,

B) RPing evil doesn't you have to do random crazy things: saying I insult people, I challenge random people (without even talking to them before), or I bring ulbernauts to populated areas doesn't necessarily qualify as "good" evil. Evil characters don't have to act like spoiled children. Your character can be a very lawful evil character. Their bad deed would need to be carefully planned. I like the idea of making enemies and RPing with them one at a time, planning evil things for each one of them.


As for the dwarfettes... I know 6 (and one of them is an alt of mine :D).






Yes well, unless your character is more of a terrorist, which can be evil or good... I have a few trouble makers who do things simply to upset the hydlaa community.... Why?... Because he dislikes the goverment idea. Now that may be classified as random violence but when we say.... 'evil'.... well thats a very relative term... To us they are the forces of rebellion who dare destroy good order, to them, we are the evil empire... see, it goes both ways, no character really believes what they are doing is bad... or they wouldn't be doing it... Some people just have a different sence of what is right and what is wrong, of course you have the semi insane group who just don't know what the heck is going on.... but... meh.
Title: Re: Save the Evil Ones
Post by: Peacer on September 13, 2006, 11:10:24 pm
@rethius:

but ooc'ly you would know what is bad...
Title: Re: Save the Evil Ones
Post by: zhai on September 13, 2006, 11:31:33 pm
Yes, I think that if you're character is a punk or an anarchist, you can RP it that way: bring the ulbers, insult people, steal dropped items, etc., etc...

BUT

"My character is Evil" is not an excuse to bother or harass other players nor does it entitle you to take advantage of loopholes in game mechanics or ignore that there are laws in Yliakum. If you pick up an item that was on the ground or if you steal it by pretending you are going to repair it, you're taking advantage of the fact that your victim cannot do anything to you. They can kill you a thousand times and still not get it back and if they reported you, GMs would tell them not to do that again and that it was their fault (partly true). The point is: you can do it that way but there is no need. You can return the item as an OOC thing but RP that you still have it. You are still a thief, they will talk to you like one. I think the best way would be to give them a chance to get it back, either by dueling or rolling the dice or whatever. Yes, the victims are guilty of trusting too much but IRL we're not able to walk through people and we are not unable to loot a dead enemy. So, if you steal something and then run through your victim (when they would be trying to hold you back) and then die in the duel or, even worse, decline the challenge, you are taking advantage of game mechanics and that has nothing to do with being evil or RP.

Both good and evil characters have to be consistent. I agree with Maerghaine that if you're good you shouldn't be comfortable with serial killers or dwarfslayers camping the same rogue or chilling next to you in the pub and RP that way. It doesn't mean report them! It means RP it. And evil characters have to be consistent too. If A.I. was implemented for NPCs to react to crimes, you would think twice before attacking anyone in the city or stealing from them. But that would limit RP a great deal so it is up to us to determine the boundaries. You want to be a murderer? You'll need someone to accept your challenge. They will RP with you. You wanna be a thief? Then RP it. Negotiate OOC the rules of engagement so that the outcome is open so either party could win. Yes, if you trick people into giving you a certain item you're totally IC, keep doing that but you should include a way to even the odds because that would keep your RP completely IC, no loopholes, no exploits.
Title: Re: Save the Evil Ones
Post by: Nikodemus on September 13, 2006, 11:43:03 pm
Nice zhai, like some other people posting here.

Since everythink has been said and people are actually repeating what others have said, I won't continue it.
But one thing is asking to be clarified.
Bringing ulbers or any other monsters to the city is completly OOC. Why?
1. Guards would close the gates, so no monsters could enter a city. (this has been said at least once x) )
2. Even monsters have a little brain (sometimes more than some planeshifters ;) ) and probably stop after finding out their prey hidden in a place where the monsters don't go, because they die ;P
Title: Re: Save the Evil Ones
Post by: Rethius on September 14, 2006, 03:57:46 am
@rethius:

but ooc'ly you would know what is bad...

Well of course... oocly I have moral standards, but in rp my character doesn't know good from bad, he considers himself as a robin hood like figure, stealing from hydlaa nobles and giving to his close friends who have nothing... Of course in RL I know what he is doing is wrong, but to him it seems like the good thing to do...

@ Zhai: Agreed, basicly in short it all boils down to knowing where the line is drawn between OOC and IC... if you know that, this is no issue at all...
Title: Re: Save the Evil Ones
Post by: RilucH on September 14, 2006, 09:59:40 am
basicly , i see here that the evil action always must be justified when you ropleplay it, but let me tell you that sometimes those evil actions havent time to be ropleplayed, becouse in a moment you get reported and you got the c.i.a. and the f.b.i. over you and sometimes just doesnt listen to you ,just tell you "stop .........and always ends the sentence with ::or suffer the consecuences",and thats my friends leaves you with any any desire to keep on making ropleplay on that action done
Title: Re: Save the Evil Ones
Post by: Datruth on September 14, 2006, 10:29:29 am
Playing evil is very hard, i tried it once, lot's of repercussions.

The best player, i my opinion, who plays Evil, HAS TO BE Drahlian. :thumbup:

She is a 10/10, i mean just be around her when she R.P's, it's amazing.

I hope she never leaves the game, we should really learn from her. :sorcerer:

~~Datruth
Title: Re: Save the Evil Ones
Post by: zanzibar on September 14, 2006, 11:51:41 am
Playing evil is very hard, i tried it once, lot's of repercussions.

The best player, i my opinion, who plays Evil, HAS TO BE Drahlian. :thumbup:

She is a 10/10, i mean just be around her when she R.P's, it's amazing.

I hope she never leaves the game, we should really learn from her. :sorcerer:

~~Datruth



My first experience with Drahlian was taking her on after she threatened the lives of a group of dwarves.  I used light green potions during the match so I wouldn't actually have to kill her, but she just kept attacking me with hit and run attacks so I had to put an end to it.  5-10 minutes of angry /tells later.... so yeah, bad first impressions.  After that, she went around bad mouthing me, especially to her guild.

So.... yeah.




Title: Re: Save the Evil Ones
Post by: Xylaal on September 14, 2006, 01:30:03 pm
I'm sorry you had that experience :( , but aside from that occurance she was/is a good example of evil for many reasons;

- Her evil was not based on game mechanics but on RP situations.
- Those situations fell within the perview of the PS setting.
- She made sure that all her and her guild's victims knew that it was RP evil...if they didn't they were very cordial and apologetic.
- Their story was engrossing...everyone enjoyed the evil emensely.

Yet, it had to end. I was a part of this RP between Dwarvesbane and the Dwarven Star (I was put under Drahlian's 'spell') and I must say...it IS very hard playing evil....and keeping it going...I was relieved to take a breather but I would jump at the chance to do it again. Perhaps I will. 
Title: Re: Save the Evil Ones
Post by: Mindari on September 14, 2006, 03:36:55 pm
everyone who trys to roleplay as evil ends up getting grief from other players who dont understand :/
Title: Re: Save the Evil Ones
Post by: RayvenD on September 14, 2006, 03:38:48 pm
here's an idea, next time you get reported for playing an evil character, report the person who reporterd you on grounds that they are disrupting your rp with ooc actions. ;)
Title: Re: Save the Evil Ones
Post by: Mindari on September 14, 2006, 03:44:45 pm
definatly .. it is what i would do =p
Title: Re: Save the Evil Ones
Post by: RilucH on September 14, 2006, 04:17:29 pm
I dont think that would be a good idea,but  the only result would be to make more diffical the work for our gm,and they sometimes seems to be very busy and dont want to hear too much explanations about rplaying ,they just say STOP.(sometimes i have felt as repressed by dictators)
i think a good idea is give to  gm a definition of your evil character,they can have a list of it, this way they will be on knowing about how evil is your character,so when someone reports you ,they only ,must to check out if your bad action is IC or OOC,and if its IC ,told to the poor poor victim to not report again when are a good roleplayingf on actions,this way, also  can  educate to the easy report players to dont do it without reason.
POINT:there are good fellow ,good character lawful ,that his play is provocate and when have a reaction go on reporting meanwhile keeps in silence but before have acted not like a good fellows.the victims are not ever the victim
what do you think ????
Title: Re: Save the Evil Ones
Post by: Syilph on September 14, 2006, 04:35:25 pm
I dont think that would be a good idea,but  the only result would be to make more diffical the work for our gm,and they sometimes seems to be very busy and dont want to hear too much explanations about rplaying ,they just say STOP.(sometimes i have felt as a repressed by dictators)
i think a good idea is give to  gm a definition of your evil character,they can have a list of it, this way they will be on knowing about how evil is your character,so when someone reports you ,they only ,must to check out if your bad action is IC or OOC.
what do you think ????

This is the best ideea ever! \o/
Well, it isn't really, I was just joking.
What would a definition of your evil character help us with? How about I tell everybody that my character is evil and then go around harassing people OOC? It is very simple actually... You RP your character the way you want to. As soon as somebody tells you in a OOC tell or sentence that he/she feels offended OOC by your RP you stop and go RP evil with somebody else that will take all your actions IC.
About the fact that we say "STOP" without hearing any explanations... Well, if you consider 30 minutes of arguing with a player untill the discution tends to fall into compleete stupidity, "not hearing an explanation" well... I guess GMs are tirants or dictators. Everybody will find a point of view in their favour even if they KNOW what they did was wrong. And, after hearing a bunch of useless and incoherent excuses, sometimes you feel compeled to play the dictator and just say "stop". Besides, you will get a GM telling you to stop behaving a certain way, only after a player /reported you and after the GM read the text of the /report command. I always advise players, when they feel disturbed by somebodys actions to tell them straight and clear, in a /tell something like "[I find your RP disturbing and I feel offended OOC. Please stop.]" If they told you that and you keep "RPing" you do it at your own risk because everything that you say after, can and will be used against you, like the cops in movies say.
So, to sumarise, your ideea is for GMs to have a DB with the evil characters, go check that out when a report is issued, read your description, read the /report text and then come talk to you wondering wheater you did what you did IC or OOC. How's that less work?  ::|

Edit:
Don't get me wrong, I think that having more evil characters in PS is a necesity because we need some balance but over time, I've encountered alot of lame excuses from people using RP as a cover to act OOC. Being evil is good [however strange that may sound :P] but using RP as a shield for OOC harassment is very bad.
Title: Re: Save the Evil Ones
Post by: zhai on September 14, 2006, 04:47:12 pm

My first experience with Drahlian was taking her on after she threatened the lives of a group of dwarves.  I used light green potions during the match so I wouldn't actually have to kill her, but she just kept attacking me with hit and run attacks so I had to put an end to it.  5-10 minutes of angry /tells later.... so yeah, bad first impressions.  After that, she went around bad mouthing me, especially to her guild.

So.... yeah.

Why would you not attempt to kill her after you challenged? If that was not your intention to begin with you could have used a /tell to ask her not to duel but to RP a discussion. If I was RPing and someone arrives and challenges me based on my RP, I would consider it cheating to use potions of any kind without a prior OOC agreement or warning (at least a God-like explanation like "My character is uber-uber-uber powerful so I always duel with potions").

But since Drahlian was mentioned I gotta say I also joined Dwarvesbane for a while (under a spell too), and I learned a great deal about RP. However, I do remember that even some GMs could not tell the difference between IC and OOC with that particular RP. So, yes, evil is misread so often that it seems and that's why we need to have OOC agreements as they unfold instead of "disclaimers". This does not take anything away from your RP but keeps it safe and, more importantly, enjoyable by everyone.
Title: Re: Save the Evil Ones
Post by: RilucH on September 14, 2006, 05:01:24 pm
Hello Silyph:
I got to tell that in pshift world there are gms and gms,and no all of you act the same way,becouse you are not machines ,but sometimes as Ihave did,you and we all make mistakes,im not talking of you or about noone in concret,but it happens,and is a fact that sometimes players abussed of reporting (and im sure also use tells as asurrance the winning in matter in fact).and as i say there are good players who go provocating and searching reactions and when they get yours one make reports and come back to be the lawful character,and when you intents to explain this,you are not hearing,that hurts.
 noone gm had explained me the answer of a gm that i have received lastly.dont give name
and i know im not an  :innocent:,but i think i do not a bad rp.
please explain me this as i were 4 years old,is this a gm answer to a trouble???
Quote
my last trouble begun when a dwarf intents sell to a friend a ruined battle axe by 3 k ,i was informed and i speaks not politely at this person not to sell weapons at excesive price,i told the rules of 25 % over the original selling price,all this  arrive at a GM and its answer was this: that rule was an advice in the forums and that was an as indicative rule and ,what set me congealed was that told me  that yliakum has undergone a great inflation.... somebody  explains me  this please- the rules as I see that they are applied to greater or smaller rigor depending on who broke it.... Who are the judge to do worth the rules
the rules of the forum are rules or are behavior advice?
the rules of the forum change of strict rules to behavior advice depending on the person who this implying in the question. it is what I see

Scrolling text is a pain on the eyes. Removed.
Title: Re: Save the Evil Ones
Post by: Syilph on September 14, 2006, 05:34:09 pm
Hello Silyph:
I got to tell that in pshift world there are gms and gms,and no all of you act the same way,becouse you are not machines ,but sometimes as Ihave did,you and we all make mistakes,im not talking of you or about noone in concret,but it happens,and is a fact that sometimes players abussed of reporting (and im sure also use tells as asurrance the winning in matter in fact).and as i say there are good players who go provocating and searching reactions and when they get yours one make reports and come back to be the lawful character,and when you intents to explain this,you are not hearing,that hurts.
 noone gm had explained me the answer of a gm that i have received lastly.dont give name
and i know im not an  :innocent:,but i think i do not a bad rp.
please explain me this as i were 4 years old,is this a gm answer to a trouble???

Yaay, it only took reading 5 times that post to get your point...
So... you are saying that some people harass you in order to get a similar response from you? I can understand why would one harass another that harassed him in that case... Well, I actually don't. If somebody is harassing you in order to get a response so he/she can report you, why don't you report him/her in the first place?  ::| And I don't mean you, Riluch, I mean you players. I did it because he started isn't the best excuse, and because, like some guys who lived a long time ago said, "verba volant scripta manet" we will only act on proofs, like something written.
As for the scrolling pretty thing, I didn't got what you ment. Did you mean something or were you just trying to hypnotize people? [Joking] The sentence "is this a gm answer to a trouble???", besides having far too many "?", is very confusing. What answer to what trouble?
Title: Re: Save the Evil Ones
Post by: RilucH on September 14, 2006, 05:50:41 pm
why i do not report first...becouse i am against reporting ,if i can resolve myself the matter
2-im not trying to hipnotize..man i am not David Cooperfield
3-the trouble is easy to see:
a player who sell weapons over  of 25% more than the original price(this case a ruined battle axe by 3k)
i speak with him ,the players denies all,an further starts saying im on diffaming his character
4-the gm answer is that the rule of 25%in rules of forum is and advice and i must know that Ylikum has a great inflaction in prices(its not serius)and the web page is not actualized where is that rule.if its true say it and dont make fool who take our time to read it and then put in practice in game

got it?
is harassment try to get adventage from newbies or others?sell it at this price is such a stealing

sorry by my english ,it is harder speaks and specially write english when is not your maternal lenguage.
Title: Re: Save the Evil Ones
Post by: Peacer on September 14, 2006, 06:11:46 pm
@datruth: I disagree... I wouldn't say she is the best at evil rp'ing... she is in fact not realistic about it trying to do her plots at harnquist where the goodies usually hangs out... how would it be realistic that people knew her evil plans and she could just get away with it? Not realistic...
Title: Re: Save the Evil Ones
Post by: Santiago on September 14, 2006, 06:18:23 pm
Sell items for whatever prices you want. There are no rules on that.
Title: Re: Save the Evil Ones
Post by: RilucH on September 14, 2006, 06:20:45 pm
Quote
Posted on: September 14, 2006, 09:11:46 AMPosted by: Peacer  
Insert Quote
@datruth: I disagree... I wouldn't say she is the best at evil rp'ing... she is in fact not realistic about it trying to do her plots at harnquist where the goodies usually hangs out... how would it be realistic that people knew her evil plans and she could just get away with it? Not realistic...

sorry im here only 5 months .is the place near hanquist ,a site who belongs exclusively to good fellows?
why is not realistic a rp when she did it near harni?
Title: Re: Save the Evil Ones
Post by: Syilph on September 14, 2006, 06:27:30 pm
why i do not report first...becouse i am against reporting ,if i can resolve myself the matter

Ok, so... you are against reporting. And you can solve your own problems... Well, regarding that I can say only 2 things. Good for us because we have less reports to read and bad for you because that's the thing about reports, they alow us to help you when you have a problem. If somebody reports you, will we trust the writen text or your excuse? And about fixing your own problems... Players should not play cops, that's the GMs job.

Quote
a player who sell weapons over  of 25% more than the original price(this case a ruined battle axe by 3k)
i speak with him ,the players denies all,an further starts saying im on diffaming his character
4-the gm answer is that the rule of 25%in rules of forum is and advice and i must know that Ylikum has a great inflaction in prices(its not serius)and the web page is not actualized where is that rule.if its true say it and dont make fool who take our time to read it and then put in practice in game
Who's fault is that you bought a too expensive weappon? Did somebody put it in your hands and took the money out of your pocket? Nope. Should we have a rule preventing people to sell stuff at high prices? Nope. If you are... *tries to find a not offensive word*... unconscious enough to buy a pickaxe for 1 mil trias, who's fault is it? [Well, I bought 4 emmeralds for a high price, too, because of some particular circumstances, but I never complained about that.]

Quote
got it?
Yeah... kind of... no... wait... yeah

Quote
is harassment try to get adventage from newbies or others?sell it at this price is such a stealing
No, that's not really harassment... And selling it at that price is commerce... Buying it at that price though is... I don't know what to say... bad, I guess.
Title: Re: Save the Evil Ones
Post by: Rethius on September 14, 2006, 06:32:45 pm
Quote
Posted on: September 14, 2006, 09:11:46 AMPosted by: Peacer  
Insert Quote
@datruth: I disagree... I wouldn't say she is the best at evil rp'ing... she is in fact not realistic about it trying to do her plots at harnquist where the goodies usually hangs out... how would it be realistic that people knew her evil plans and she could just get away with it? Not realistic...

sorry im here only 5 months .is the place near hanquist ,a site who belongs exclusively to good fellows?
why is not realistic a rp when she did it near harni?

Okay, a few things...

1: Generaly as peacer said goodie two shose tend to hang out around hanrquist... More so then us villans who tend to hang out at the tavern or int he back allys. :whistling:

2: Actually peacer, you know why its not realistic? and its far from her fault... No one tries to stop her, and those who try simply cannot... Currently the law enforcement of hydlaa is weak, and unformal... The closest thing to justice is what I like to call... "The people's mob" ... which is basicly a bunch of goodies who run around and stand in as the law because they have the power to do so, the peoples mob is very corrupt and has little int he terms of justice... However i wont go into that because that is rather off topic here...

3: The goodies are two busy doing their little pling in crafting to care how many dwarves drahlian kills, and the only goodies that do anything normaly do this.... *ahem* /me sends a healing spell through victum dwarf to cure the disese drahlian put in him.

(I'd like to then refer to daehaz's first post with his wonderful illistration... Now, again, it isn't drahlians fault, because no one tries to stop her, and the ones who do have no idea on how to work with an evil villan in trying to stop them correctly... its not a single step, its a struggle...)
Title: Re: Save the Evil Ones
Post by: zanzibar on September 14, 2006, 06:44:56 pm

My first experience with Drahlian was taking her on after she threatened the lives of a group of dwarves.  I used light green potions during the match so I wouldn't actually have to kill her, but she just kept attacking me with hit and run attacks so I had to put an end to it.  5-10 minutes of angry /tells later.... so yeah, bad first impressions.  After that, she went around bad mouthing me, especially to her guild.

So.... yeah.

Why would you not attempt to kill her after you challenged?



She challenged me.
Title: Re: Save the Evil Ones
Post by: zhai on September 14, 2006, 07:14:51 pm

My first experience with Drahlian was taking her on after she threatened the lives of a group of dwarves.  I used light green potions during the match so I wouldn't actually have to kill her, but she just kept attacking me with hit and run attacks so I had to put an end to it.  5-10 minutes of angry /tells later.... so yeah, bad first impressions.  After that, she went around bad mouthing me, especially to her guild.

So.... yeah.

Why would you not attempt to kill her after you challenged?

She challenged me.

You missed this part:

Why would you not attempt to kill her after you challenged? If that was not your intention to begin with you could have used a /tell to ask her not to duel but to RP a discussion.

Whoever challenged, the other had to accept. Why accept a duel you don't want?
Title: Re: Save the Evil Ones
Post by: dying_inside on September 14, 2006, 10:15:53 pm
For a while I was trying to be Evil but I do nuetral so much better than Good or Evil.
Boaal is dismissive of everybody and he is very unemotional and apathetic.
"The fact that someone slaughtered your freind makes me cry big rocky tears..... Boo Hoo! Now get out of my way."
Title: Re: Save the Evil Ones
Post by: RilucH on September 14, 2006, 11:29:13 pm
from syilph
Quote
Ok, so... you are against reporting. And you can solve your own problems... Well, regarding that I can say only 2 things. Good for us because we have less reports to read and bad for you because that's the thing about reports, they alow us to help you when you have a problem. If somebody reports you, will we trust the writen text or your excuse? And about fixing your own problems... Players should not play cops, that's the GMs job.

Im not talking about play cop in planeshift ,im talking about roleplay the situation,i dont need the feeling to call you with silly things
but others as i said, i think have a shorcut done with "/report comand"
(speacially i dont play cop becouse i heat the abuse of power and the impossed autorithy)
and there were a time ago on the guide of planeshift a point wich told about the 25 %
i was checking up it,and there isnt anymore ::|
Title: Re: Save the Evil Ones
Post by: zanzibar on September 14, 2006, 11:42:02 pm
Whoever challenged, the other had to accept. Why accept a duel you don't want?


Why must a duel end with somebody dieing?



@RilucH:  Taking advantage of newbies isn't harassment.
Title: Re: Save the Evil Ones
Post by: Datruth on September 15, 2006, 02:35:00 am
3k for a ruined battle axe isn't Going above the price.

Ruined weapons are great for training, and 3k ruined battle axe seems fine to me.

i don't see it as 25% over the original price or whatever you meant, hard to fully understand you.

And i understand some people disagree with me as to who is the best evil character.

That's fine, like i said, it was my opinion, so obviously we all won't be in agreement.

But again, i have to stress, i still feel she is the best at Rping evil.

Remember, just my opinion though.

~~Datruth
Title: Re: Save the Evil Ones
Post by: zanzibar on September 15, 2006, 02:58:38 am
The best at RPing evil?  *cough* Amheh *cough*
Title: Re: Save the Evil Ones
Post by: Datruth on September 15, 2006, 03:15:04 am
I've never actually seen you in game Zanzibar, so i wouldn't know how to rate you.

Maybe once i see you, i'll have a better view, but for now my opinion stands.

~~Datruth
Title: Re: Save the Evil Ones
Post by: zhai on September 15, 2006, 03:36:47 am
Whoever challenged, the other had to accept. Why accept a duel you don't want?


Why must a duel end with somebody dieing?


::| What??? *shakes head* Wait, yes, you can duel without anyone dying but that's usually using weaker weapons and having agreed that one would yield at some point... For what you've said, that was not the case. All these could have been discussed before accepting the challenge. It looks like you accepted it but you didn't want to die so you used potions, but I think we're getting a bit off topic here.
Title: Re: Save the Evil Ones
Post by: Suno_Regin on September 15, 2006, 03:50:53 am
Amheh was a terrible roleplayer in my opinion. I read their guild site, and I'm not saying he/she was a bad roleplayer ingame, but the fact that they said "we are moving east to the rubies of eventide" kind of made them seem a little...stupid.
Title: Re: Save the Evil Ones
Post by: zanzibar on September 15, 2006, 06:40:54 am
I've never actually seen you in game Zanzibar, so i wouldn't know how to rate you.

Maybe once i see you, i'll have a better view, but for now my opinion stands.

~~Datruth

My main character is Shalmaneser.


::| What??? *shakes head* Wait, yes, you can duel without anyone dying but that's usually using weaker weapons and having agreed that one would yield at some point... For what you've said, that was not the case. All these could have been discussed before accepting the challenge. It looks like you accepted it but you didn't want to die so you used potions, but I think we're getting a bit off topic here.

Drahlian had plenty of opportunity to run away.  She did not.


Amheh was a terrible roleplayer in my opinion. I read their guild site, and I'm not saying he/she was a bad roleplayer ingame, but the fact that they said "we are moving east to the rubies of eventide" kind of made them seem a little...stupid.

Were you even around back then?  But yeah, Deus ex Trucido mostly migrated, though members are still active to this day.  You'd be... surprised.

Title: Re: Save the Evil Ones
Post by: Robinmagus on September 15, 2006, 07:19:05 am
You guys need to let the evil thing go... It's not like we're going extinct. And yeah, Amheh wasn't the best of roleplayers but he was a bad a**. Just had to love him for that.
Title: Re: Save the Evil Ones
Post by: Peacer on September 17, 2006, 12:34:08 am
Quote
Posted on: September 14, 2006, 09:11:46 AMPosted by: Peacer 
Insert Quote
@datruth: I disagree... I wouldn't say she is the best at evil rp'ing... she is in fact not realistic about it trying to do her plots at harnquist where the goodies usually hangs out... how would it be realistic that people knew her evil plans and she could just get away with it? Not realistic...

sorry im here only 5 months .is the place near hanquist ,a site who belongs exclusively to good fellows?
why is not realistic a rp when she did it near harni?

Okay, a few things...

1: Generaly as peacer said goodie two shose tend to hang out around hanrquist... More so then us villans who tend to hang out at the tavern or int he back allys. :whistling:

2: Actually peacer, you know why its not realistic? and its far from her fault... No one tries to stop her, and those who try simply cannot... Currently the law enforcement of hydlaa is weak, and unformal... The closest thing to justice is what I like to call... "The people's mob" ... which is basicly a bunch of goodies who run around and stand in as the law because they have the power to do so, the peoples mob is very corrupt and has little int he terms of justice... However i wont go into that because that is rather off topic here...

3: The goodies are two busy doing their little pling in crafting to care how many dwarves drahlian kills, and the only goodies that do anything normaly do this.... *ahem* /me sends a healing spell through victum dwarf to cure the disese drahlian put in him.

(I'd like to then refer to daehaz's first post with his wonderful illistration... Now, again, it isn't drahlians fault, because no one tries to stop her, and the ones who do have no idea on how to work with an evil villan in trying to stop them correctly... its not a single step, its a struggle...)

http://hydlaa.com/smf/index.php?topic=23799.15
Title: Re: Save the Evil Ones
Post by: Under the moon on September 17, 2006, 04:01:14 am
How I roleplay evil: Janeous Creene (http://hydlaa.com/smf/index.php?topic=24498.msg275930#msg275930)

I played this role for several months without most of the players involved knowing my character was playing them. I was kind most of the time in face, but in mind plotted how each of them would die if it came to that. I gained the trust of character and player both. If I did intend to do evil to them, I let them know the plan and whole story. In most cases, they would agree. If not, the plot shifted. Adapt or die.

A point that you all have to remember is that you CAN'T play an evil character in public view. The public will not accept it, IC or OOC. Any 'evil' you do has to come from both sides, evil player -and- victim. You can only be as publicly evil as others LET you be.

In other news, Janeous is still out there, and still plotting...
Title: Re: Save the Evil Ones
Post by: zanzibar on September 17, 2006, 06:57:09 am
If I did intend to do evil to them, I let them know the plan and whole story. In most cases, they would agree. If not, the plot shifted. Adapt or die.




Ah, the acting out of prewritten story lines!  The definition of roleplaying.
Title: Re: Save the Evil Ones
Post by: ramlambmoo on September 17, 2006, 07:47:47 am
Ah god, perhaps I better jump in and give my 2c worth...

The main reason there are no actually evil players in the game currently, is because of the lack of game dynamics to support them.  This is the exact reason Dues Ex disbanded, and why the "Moving to Rubies of Evertide" thing came up: There are no mechanics in the game to actually do anything evil.  DeT firmly believed that Evil should come from actions first and firstmost, and that talking should then come from that, in certain situations.  The guild was formed because of a perceived lack of evil players who actually did anything- you can only talk up evil to a point, and after that, it just becomes tiresome.

There are currently very few, if any, legitimate ways to conduct evil actions in planeshift.  ANYTHING borderline, or for that matter in some cases anything 'evil', will be instantly reported to GM's and in a large majority of cases will result in punishment for the evil players.  90% of 'roleplayers' in PS don't understand that just because someone attacks them IC, it DOESNT mean they are attacking them OOC, or that they are 'griefing', or breaking the rules.

Hence, there is no way to legitmatly conduct evil actions, and even when you talk evil, players more often then not take it personally as an OOC attack and will still report you.

Hence, there is very limited scope to be evil, and this is the reason why DeT (And I'm guessing other evil guilds) are in permanent hibernation.  The old Evil players haven't left- we're just waiting for the developers to add something in that we can do.  That is, assuming they ever do- It's largely looking like the game will never support any real Player versus Player action (In terms of attacking, theiving, etc), because "We dont want griefers and its too hard to come up with a system that will work well so lets just not focus on it for now".  I'm of the firm opinion that this will lead away from what could have been a very exciting and dynamic community, but really, once people have their minds set on their way of doing things, you cant stop them.

In the past, every attempt to create an evil atmosphere has been defeated and labelled unwanted by the community and the developers.  The only realisitc mechanisms to conduct any evil actions currently are borderline on abusing bugs, and would require great investment of time and organisation.  We are not prepared to do this for a community that would not appreciate it, as shown before.  I hope, one day, (Sooner rather than later), the developers will realise that having a Good vs Evil aspect in the game with both sides player controlled would greatly help interest and excitment in the game if properly implemented, and they will do something about it.   Until then, we have better things to do with our lives then to fight a lost cause.
Title: Re: Save the Evil Ones
Post by: zanzibar on September 17, 2006, 08:29:41 am
I think that's a pretty good description of what's going on, and I feel pretty much the same way.  The thing is... you just know that if things like player-killing and theiving were introduced to the game, we'd end up with dozens of little turds running around harassing people just for fun.  There would be no RP motivations or sensibilities in it, save for some.  It's largely that way right now, only the things one can do in game right now aren't things that annoy other players on that level.

I think that there needs to be political, social, and religious overtones to it.  The thing is, for it to work well, it has to be coming out of the game.  People have to be reacting to powers and forces that are an objective part of the Planeshift world.  But people won't like that, because they seem to prefer to introduce whatever new gods or race or evil wizard suits their fancy on a week by week basis.

Pretty much the only thing we do have for evil characters presently are the guilds.  Find a guild that suits your character's agenda or values and support it.  But that gets boring after a while, and it usually doesn't work out for long.



In my opinion, adding violence and wars and player killing and evil spells and theiving is the best answer.  It's what would make things interesting.  The problem is finding some sort of ingenius way of making it work!


Title: Re: Save the Evil Ones
Post by: ramlambmoo on September 17, 2006, 10:34:56 am
Quote
In my opinion, adding violence and wars and player killing and evil spells and theiving is the best answer.  It's what would make things interesting.  The problem is finding some sort of ingenius way of making it work!

Well thats the entire point- you need a system whereby people can legitimatly perform these actions without it being able to be abused by powerful people who could just cause greif (OOC, that is) to others in the game.  I've seen some pretty interesting suggestions on these boards from people, but a general attitude seems to be "Oh you cant possibly do it, it wont work, so we wont even try".  Hopefully I'll be proved wrong, and they will try to implement it somehow (This is a pre alpha after all- isnt the entire point to try things out??), but Im skeptical that It will happen.
Title: Re: Save the Evil Ones
Post by: Peacer on September 17, 2006, 11:45:09 am
The thing is... you just know that if things like player-killing .....

I think that /challenges needs to be rp'ed another way than the game mechanics offer... i see a /challenge as someone attacking you and the "yes" "no" is just a way to decline if the player attacks of ooc reasons, however it would be nice for some character interactions before that person attacks. The reason why i do this is for realism, "hmm i can't attack you because of some ultimatetivly sick spell has been cast upon you" game mechanics blocking rp and trying to explain it ic? Is kinda bad rp imo...
Title: Re: Save the Evil Ones
Post by: RayvenD on September 17, 2006, 01:55:21 pm
i usually get round the whole accepting challenges etc by rping a valid way for the fight to happen, i rarely even challenge people but i duel a fair amount. I'll get up in the other characters face [ic of course] and say things like "'Ere get ye arse up'n fight like a man, or at least a big bloo piece o' whatever ye is!" et or if you get someone who enjoys to insult your character and then won't carry the roleplay through and sit and ignore you when you challenge them to a duel (sertiously this is medievel in settings, it was a big thing in those days that if you were insulted or insulted someone you could expect a duel on your hands, it's an honour thing. so why do people assume they can insult you then ignore a challenge?) I just call them a coward and keep annoying them in character until they pay attention.
Title: Re: Save the Evil Ones
Post by: daehaz on September 17, 2006, 06:21:52 pm
I agree with many of the opinions posted here. Yes, the pre-alpha thing limits us all, especially when it comes to RPing evil. However, game mechanics should not be the most important criteria on how we can RP, but just a frame of reference. PKilling and thieving is prone to abuse and I fear lots of players (probably those who think stealing dropped items equals RPing evil) would do it and explain that they are just evil and little RP would take place at that. I agree with UTM when he says that there should be an agreement between players whenever something is going to be RPed, not a script, but certain ground rules.

When I started killing newcomers in the sewers there was always an agreement and the possibility that I would get killed too: first I RPed an approach and laid the bait, when an overly trusting newcomer picked it, I would ask if they wanted to be part of a RP and warned them that they might end up in the DR. All this OOC happened between tells and group chat. After they agreed, we would RP freely and they would do as they pleased. And only after I attacked them, I would officially reveal that I was a serial killer. After the RP I would keep the group on for a while, so we could agree on how they were to RP our encounter (not revealing my name, giving them a description of myself, and other things). In some cases, I would help them out of the DR if they didn't know the exit and I would also offer them a little starting trias or a few items I had no use for (all OOC). In some cases, stating the difference between OOC and IC was also new to them, so the whole experience was a RP-101 thing for them and I think they enjoyed it. So yes, you have to agree because the idea is that all participants enjoy the RP. I couldn't just attack them out of the blue (game mechanics don't allow it and they wouldn't have had fun, most probably). They allowed it and they were good sports.

So when it comes to RPing evil you gotta have both parts involved. It won't work any other way. So, I gues the point of this thread is: let evil happen. It doesn't mean let your character be killed but stay IC when evil things start to plot around you and play along because you'll probably enjoy it better that way.
Title: Re: Save the Evil Ones
Post by: zanzibar on September 17, 2006, 06:56:22 pm
I think that players need to get permission from the mechanics of the game to be evil.  In Daggerfall, you have the Blades and the theives guild.  If you kill too many people, the Blades come after you.  If you steal too much, the theives guild come after you.  They're kind of like unions who kill anyone who steals work from them.



On challenges:  I usually accept challenges.  Almost always though, the person is lame and uses hit and run attacks and potions.  If I'm winning, they just run away and use energy arrow.  Is that fun?  Heck no.
Title: Re: Save the Evil Ones
Post by: makita on September 18, 2006, 01:22:45 pm
rp "evil" some thread...save the evil ones...
threads like this allways tend to pop up on ps forums, the problem is far from old yet nobody does anything about it, why???
firstly imo in order to succesfully rp evil you need some sort of game mechanics to help you otherwise it just ends up in a typical my father is stronger than your father argument only in tells and without the family buisness..."not allways tough, i did had a few "nice regards sent towards my mother back in my days.."
but back to the subject at hand, take an example i played a game for a few weeks now, were rp-ing evil is very easy, why? because it's fully pvp, i just get some people to help me and we go to a doo-gooders city, kill all the guards then kill all the citizens, then p**s on the bodies....whatever. it is because it's allowed by the game mechanics that it's not rp anymore?, i don't think so
in the current state of affairs a evil character really can't do anything beside insulting someone[ ie: backstabing, murdering, kidnapping, torturing, etc...not posiible exept with the accord of the other player] and who would say something like: yeah sure i would be more than happy, would you please murder me?... no because all ps players are heroes...knights in shining armour who when you go like 10 guys against one and start "attacking" him, he goes like: /me pulls his magicall sword, does a whirlwid slash and kills all his attackers...then what???
[edit] sorry zanzibar, mustve missed that last post...
imo this is what ps is without any way of pvp:
http://www.thenoobcomic.com/daily/strip040.html
talk is cheap, it's the actions that promote your character...
Title: Re: Save the Evil Ones
Post by: LARAGORN on September 18, 2006, 03:29:11 pm

http://www.thenoobcomic.com/daily/strip040.html


Thats some good evil :)
I cant wait for double arsemod to be implimented in PS :P
Title: Re: Save the Evil Ones
Post by: Nikodemus on September 18, 2006, 03:54:27 pm

http://www.thenoobcomic.com/daily/strip040.html


Thats some good evil :)
I cant wait for double arsemod to be implimented in PS :P
But what this episode has to do with double arsemode???
We are not talking about The Noob comic, but about the happy roleplayer paradise ;P

The pvp is the key.
Without, we have happy roleplayer paradise which is bad.
With, we have terrible griefers heaven which is also bad.

The factor which bring balance beatwen two with pvp on, is operating guards force. So that good players can fight with flow of bad players who often are bad purely for their own fun.
I can't point out any game which would have it, together with proper RP enviroment.
The less significant factor one from many more is:
encouraging to not indentify players with their character needs and behaviour, because even if player own the character, he is not that character and this word has to be spreaded, so that RPers won't be on worse position (IMHO we have already achieved it pretty much)

Title: Re: Save the Evil Ones
Post by: zanzibar on September 18, 2006, 10:36:39 pm
Well, there is a solution:  Make it so that it's NPC's who are robbed and who are murdered.  A player could die, but only if he had volounteered to be a body guard for example.
Title: Re: Save the Evil Ones
Post by: witchking on September 19, 2006, 11:30:46 am
Mmmmmmmmmm... evil...  :devil:

Where do I start?

Ok, it's obvious that it is very difficult to implement RP'ing an evil character without being misunderstood for OOC griefing. Not that the "tree huggers" are always pleasant. They can get overbearing and annoying at times.

The game also does not make it easy to look and be evil. Even a Klyros, being a fairly good potential with an "evilish" looking expression, has in its description that it is not an evil race despite its appearances. Sheesh! That leaves Diaboli. But yet, in almost every single post concerning their evil ways, some people will jump in and argue to death that they are "not necessarily evil and can very well be good". That is even after being pointed to a quote that Diaboli are a malicious race from its description. Sheesh! What's wrong with having a truely evil race? It is a fantasy after all... Look at sci-fi and "Aliens" by Giger, for example...

I strongly believe that the best approach to being evil is NPC/quest interaction and simply looking evil through one's gear. For example, create quests that can be solved through different approaches - good and evil. A good character may run an errand for someone to obrain a certain item, while an evil one can slaughter (if they're strong enough) either the initial NPC or one of the key NPCs in a quest to obtain either a final item or a key item in completing a quest. In order to avoid preventing good characters from talking to a key NPC, which could be slaughtered by evil ones, create instances and/or short spawn times.

If that isn't suitable, then create evil NPCs that demand immoral and evil acts in order to obtain an item/gear/etc. Good characters naturally can avoid agreeing to such quests, while evil ones will probably avoid completing sickeningly good and moral quests. Sure, certain items then will not be obtainable but that does not mean that one or the other will be overpowering. Make the items comparable in stats or give different but unique/rare abilities that balance each other. If it's an armor or a weapon piece, make them look evil and good accordingly.

That brings up a point - there is nothing wrong with looking evil. Anything from your face to your armor/clothing. I understand that some people prefer to be a "wolf in sheep's clothing" but I certainly like "wearing my evil" proudly. There is also nothing wrong with picking Black Flame or Laanx as your religions, as both are quite suitable for being evil. In fact, it would be a shame not to see that potential tapped. That's what they are there for. It would be perfectly fine if certain armors/clothing and/or weapons had description such as, "Corrupted Plate of Black Flame" or "Blessed Plate of Talad" and so on. And, of course, you can only wear those specific unique items if you picked an appropriate religion. Atheists can have their own specific gear too. I'm not saying that ALL gear should have those requirements, just some occassional unique or rare items.

All of that also does not mean that being an evil character you have to walk around and laugh manically, like "Muahahahaha!". In fact, I like to keep my cool. Even if there doesn't seem to be a good opportunity to RP an evil character at a time, simply looking evil is quite satisfying. Don't tell me you wouldn't like looking like this, if you're an evil magic user:

(http://img244.imageshack.us/img244/874/evilmagic1yh6.jpg)

I very much doubt you would mistake this guy as someone to confess your sins to.

There are exceptions, of course. For example, if a female Diaboli 3D model will turn out to be as hot as their description page says, then a devious looking "dominatrix" type character with a whip (the game supports whips, luckily, woohoo!) might be a fun combo.

And don't tell me you'd believe the character below was good, even if he offered to help you carry your basket of flowers:

(http://img177.imageshack.us/img177/2131/evilforce1sg4.jpg)

How about this for a local tour guide?  :P

(http://img180.imageshack.us/img180/1729/evilmagic3mg8.jpg)

Once again, I understand that some "evil" RP'ers like to look "good", as in to be deceptive that they're "good" but really are "evil". But in games like these, it's very easy to be mistaken for griefing. You can still tread that path, of course, if you like. But what if I don't feel like explaining and spelling it out that I'm "evil" every time I want to RP? Just the act itself sucks the fun out of it. Sometimes simply looking evil, even if I'm not RP'ing at all, and showing up and intimidating the "good" characters with my looks, without saying a word, is quite satisfying.

It is no wonder that people like evil looking characters because good can get so incredibly boring... (keep in mind, I'm talking "fantasy evil" here, not "real life evil").

Another suggestion would be to have your character physically change in appearance as he commits more evil deeds (no, I'm not talking about the same thing as in the "aging" thread on this forum). For example, your skin color may start changing, your eyes may become more and more red or black etc. Diaboli may have their horns grow out further. Facial expressions can become more and more grim. Bodies can become more twisted in some ways. If more voices, such as during combat, are implimented, then evil characters can develop more evil sounding voices. And so on...

Just to give an example of the above, in an MMO called "Warhammer Online", an Orc starts out green but as he gains in levels, his skin becomes more and more dark, until he reaches the ultimate "Black Orc". Since there are no levels in PS, the changes can be based on the amount of evil deeds, be it through NPC interaction and quests or wearing certain "evil items".

I also would like to see more dark and gritty areas like these to balance the peaceful looking ones (Death Realm is fine but I'm talking about the areas not limited to it):

(http://img179.imageshack.us/img179/302/evillandsjo3.jpg)

Take your time to watch this trailer and pay attention to character races in it:

http://www.warhammeronline.com/english/media/video/easterEggs/WAR_Promo_081606.html

http://mythic.fileburst.com/war/media/WAR_Trailer_FINAL_46meg.zip (direct download of the .avi)

Every race in the above trailer is a playable race. As you can see, you certainly won't mistake good and evil in them. Pay specific attention to the last battle scene and the Chaos warrior (hint: the evil looking guy). What I'm referring to here is not the fact that they're fighting but how each race looks, sounds and what they wear. I believe that would make it a lot easier to RP one or the other. Sure, appearances can be deceiving, as I said before, and you can still attempt to play a demonic looking flower collector or angelic looking murderer. But appearances also count, and with truely evil appearances an evil RP would be more expected and understood rather than otherwise.

Take a look at this other trailer and see if you can spot the evil and good easily  ;)

http://www.markofchaos.com/videos.php?clip=1#top

Basically, my point is what good is evil if you cannot share it with others?  :D And same goes for good... I personally like sharing it through appearances, when RP doesn't seem like a good option.

It's good to be evil.  8)
Title: Re: Save the Evil Ones
Post by: DeathsAngel on September 19, 2006, 08:13:30 pm
Even if many things have been said I'd like to add my point.

Quote from: daehaz
Since I started playing (about 6 months ago), I think I could use my fingers to count evil characters
Not all of the evil characters publicly shows or directly present themselves as being "evil".  Don't forget that an evil character is not really evil for him but only acting as his will tells him, so the "evil/good" doesn't mean the same.

But the point there is that I know some evil characters but they prefer to play it behind people, away from undesirable sight, and with the fall of Dark Crystal, DE Restructuring, The Soulless drop, evil characters have dramatically drop.

Sometimes people don’t look at the right place, or at the right moment.


I also tried (and others did before me) to make alliance or at least make something big with evil characters but people tend to create them as being so much «I am stronger, you obey or I kill you» that evil characters doesn't want to cooperate with them and the players decides to avoid them.
Yes of course it is normal for evil characters not to be easy and they prefer to lead and don’t like to be lead. But that's only ONE of the many types of evil characters. Too much people focus on it.

What do I know of that? For 2 and a half year now I was a DM (D&D world of course) for an evil campaign, hard to maintain, a challenge, but great moments of role-playing.

Hope you will see my point as something helpful.

Sorry I wrote this message in a hurry before class.
Title: Re: Save the Evil Ones
Post by: Peacer on September 20, 2006, 08:36:49 am
in the current state of affairs a evil character really can't do anything beside insulting someone[ ie: backstabing, murdering, kidnapping, torturing, etc...not posiible exept with the accord of the other player]

get creative... rp'ing doesn't have to be supported by game mechanics... if you truly are a good evil player you wouldn't need theese very much

@witchangel: no... interacting too much with npc's and quests doesn't make a rp'ing game... the players do the idea with skinchanging when doing more evil is good... but with npc's is a nono and could easily just be used for powerlevelling further. Nice pictures btw though
Title: Re: Save the Evil Ones
Post by: zanzibar on September 20, 2006, 04:02:19 pm
get creative... rp'ing doesn't have to be supported by game mechanics...


This is coming from the guy who roleplays that he can make bottomless pits appear underneath people he doesn't like.
Title: Re: Save the Evil Ones
Post by: Peacer on September 20, 2006, 04:08:46 pm
get creative... rp'ing doesn't have to be supported by game mechanics...


This is coming from the guy who roleplays that he can make bottomless pits appear underneath people he doesn't like.

who said i rp'ed it :P did it to a friend yesterday cause he stole my launch.
Title: Re: Save the Evil Ones
Post by: RilucH on September 20, 2006, 07:25:27 pm
I see Peacer just today appearing through a wall at Brado's tavern cellar - how is it?

No posts in all caps.
Title: Re: Save the Evil Ones
Post by: Peacer on September 20, 2006, 09:08:35 pm
I see Peacer just today appearing through a wall at Brado's tavern cellar - how is it?

No posts in all caps.

/me looks confuzzled at riluch

hmm i saw you were nearly dead and rushed to the rescue from the roof... when i got there you had been killed by a rat :(