PlaneShift
Fan Area => The Hydlaa Plaza => Topic started by: Suno_Regin on October 14, 2006, 04:39:19 am
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When I got my new computer, the computer guy installed a new Spysweeper and Norton to it, which had new subscriptions and everything. That was about...2-3 monthes ago? And Spysweeper keeps sending me emails saying it's going to expire, but it says when I open my Spysweeper program that I have until August 8th next year until it expires. What am I supposed to do? I'm scared it'll stop working and I'll get spyware, but I'm also scared of wasting money on another subscription if this all turns out to be some sort of misleading email. What should I do?
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erm.. lesse, get AVG free edition, Lavasoft Ad aware SE personal edition (free too)
they're theo nyl things i have on my box to keep the uglies out, works fine. i'd just let the thingy run it's course, when it does expire just remove it to make it shut up ^^
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I don't trust things like that you can get from the internet. For all I know, it could sweep everything but itself, and it would be carrying about 3 hidden viruses.
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o.O;
sure, that would bring in potential customers to buy their pro software *nodnod*
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Ad-Aware is really all you need when it comes to adware/spyware. Don't be paranoid about free software - do your research and be relieved. Combine it with Spybot Search&Destroy, and you really won't need SpySweeper. I had it around way back when, but it just wasn't finding anything that my free software wasn't either, so I kicked it off my system.
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Are any of these from Microsoft? If so I'll get them, I just don't trust some random website.
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God just killed a kitten T_T
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Why would you trust Microsoft instead? Its crummy code is the source of most of the exploits used by the bad guys.
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Suno, expand your awareness of the internet (http://img143.imageshack.us/img143/9773/veeeene9.gif) This (http://www.lavasoftusa.com/products/ad-aware_se_personal.php) is the page for the application, and here (http://www.download.com/3000-2144-10045910.html) is its page on download.com with user reviews.
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Meh, alright, that's all I needed. =P
*goes to download the thingy*
Edit: Wow, turns out it found 6 things that spysweeper overlooked. Thanks Kary. =P
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Whenever a microsoft user realises that there is plenty better out there than microsoft, an angel gets their wings.
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Suno: Ad-Aware, Spybot, AVG are all good and non-virusy....
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download SuSE 10.1 dvd iso (opensuse.org)
burn dvd iso
reboot
change bios to boot from dvd
install to a linux partition (install will suggest one)
update (takes a while these days - tons of updates - although I hear there is a 10.1 remaster)
enjoy virus and spyware free existence!
Note: this is only one way to accomplish the final step.
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Suno: Ad-Aware, Spybot, AVG are all good and non-virusy....
What he said.
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:whistling:
i heard norton was good...
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norton was good. then they became symantec. now norton is just a memory bloat. AVG does the same if not better job than norton and they do it for free, at least for personal home computers anyway.
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Suno: Ad-Aware, Spybot, AVG are all good and non-virusy....
What he said.
This is true. Its what i normally use out of choice at home :p
http://www.avast.com/eng/download-avast-home.html is good too.
atm im using ad aware, spybot and sophos :/
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/me loves Ad-Aware and Spybot and uses them several times a week
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Use linux. Or trust open software only. Those don't usually come with spyware or virus.
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ETrust antivirus+ spybot
Never had a virus in ever since i got them. But ETrust is like 60$ :/
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I use a app. called Little Snitch-http://www.google.com/search?client=opera&rls=en&q=little+snitch&sourceid=opera&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8 for all the mac users interested. Combined with other firewalls it's all I have needed so far. I also hear Netlimiter is good for PC-http://netlimiter.com/
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Advice: When looking for free applications on the internet , go opensource. You can trust opensource. If you can't find something or something good enough, ask your friends (like in this thread.) There is plenty of legitimate free software available if you know where to look.
I got my entire operating system (for example: MS Windows & MacOSX are operating systems) and every piece of software on it from the internet (and no, none of it is warez.)
That, and don't always trust Microsoft. If their OS was more security-minded from the get-go, many of these vulnerabilities wouldn't exist (although I've only managed to infect an XP box once, and that was my fault.)
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Are any of these from Microsoft? If so I'll get them, I just don't trust some random website.
This made me laugh, and then want to cry :/
I'm a linux person myself, but back when I was on windoze I used spybot and adaware, as recommended here already.
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95% of spyware imo comes from browsing unsafe websites in IE. The simplest way to not get spyware is use firefox, and dont download suspicious programs. I've had my current computer for 6 months and I only use firefox with my defualt nVidia firewall. I just downloaded and ran SpyBot Search&Destroy for the first time- the only problems I had were serveral tracking cookies. Not a single actual Spyware, Malware, Trojan, etc on my system. Its easy to keep windows secure if you know what you're doing.
o.O;
sure, that would bring in potential customers to buy their pro software *nodnod*
His concern is valid: there are numerous fake 'anti spyware' programs that are actually spyware in themselves. Downloading a random program isnt a good idea in this case. (Not saying that what you suggested is a random program, just in general).
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Stop hating on Microsoft people.
Why are attacks like viruses and spyware aimed at Microsoft products?
That's like asking why terrorists attack crowds.
So run to your little Linux hole and hide.
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Oh, an OS flame war!
First off, you should note that I'm not completely hostile to Microsoft products. I just legitimately prefer non-Microsoft ones. (Word Perfect > MS Office) Secondly, you should note that I implied a security minded, computer-literate user can maintain a secure Win* Box.
You might note that I deliberately said:
although I've only managed to infect an XP box once, and that was my fault.
As for attacks:
1. There is no correlation between number of users and number of vulnerabilities.
2. Microsoft, as a corporation, has little reason to seek out and patch coded vulnerabilites which are not already known.
3. Linux is highly modularized, and proper user permissions can limit the extent of the damage.
4. Most linux users aren't stupid enough to click here to get bonzai buddy.
And if my little linux hole is safe from malware when that's what I'm trying to hide from, does it not make sense to hide there? You have no obligation to defend Microsoft's products.
I like Linux, not because it isn't Windows, but because I find it much more logical, intuitive, and efficient. If Linux had the same malware as Windows, I would still use it. I might spend more time in Windows when KDE 4 comes out, though.
[Edit: Clarification: Because KDE4 is cross-platform and will run natively in Windows.]
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Of course once MS releases Vista and forces people to upgrade (down the road when they stop selling and support for XP) you will really be in trouble as from what I've heard you will have less control of your machine and they will have more intrusive powers over what you can do with it. I am simplifying, of course, but take a look on the web beyond the windows hype and you may be disturbed.
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There is a correlation between number of users and attacks..
If 1 million noobs suddenly started using your OS i GUARANTEE there would be attacks.
Because thats who they target not the OS the millions of idiots who don't know what they are doing.
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except the fact the millions of idiots are windows lovers and think linux distro's are a term for some spyware xP
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Reply with quote
I don't trust things like that you can get from the internet. For all I know, it could sweep everything but itself, and it would be carrying about 3 hidden viruses.
Possibly, but programs like LavaSofts Adaware and Spybot Search and Destroy are both free AND recommend by professional security experts. They are all certified 100% free of spyware and malware and are quite well designed programs. AVG is only a mediocre scanning virus engine at best though. Where it excels is virus removal. If you want excellent virus detection then ClamWin is excellent. The problem with clamwin is that it only identifies viruses, it expects you to remove them (which is actually the prefered method). Rather than attempting to clean an infected .dll it is safer to replace the .dll with a fresh one from somewhere like www.dllfiles.com or elsewhere. I hear people using the "I don't trust software from the interenet it might be spyware itself" arguement alot, but come on. WIndows itself uses its little wga checker to send stats back to Microsoft. It dials home constantly. Who knows what it does precisely.
Seriously though - bad arguement. Its important to check into the software before you install it but free does not equal dangerous unless its an AOL disk.
I heard norton was good...
No - seriously its an all encompasing suite of crap. We're required to remove it from every computer we process at my place of work. There are better free alternatives.
If 1 million noobs suddenly started using your OS i GUARANTEE there would be attacks.
Not necessarily. Considering the fact that unix and linux servers dominate gov and college campus's and servers, it is actually the OS that is attempted to be brute force hacked more than any other. The types of attacks that happen on windows non server users can't actually even happen on linux because of userspace seperation and the executable bit. In linux I cannot download a file then execute it. Its impossible. Nor can a program that managed to somehow download itself execute its malicious code. This is because by default when you download a file it is automatically not executible. You must manually chmod or righ click it and click on properties and set the permissions to executible. This means extra user intervention is required to get malware to run on linux. Now say some idiot does manage to do this. He can't actually hurt anything other than his own stupid account. Joe Shmoe the linux newb downloads linux32.trojan and executes it. It runs and manages to infect his crap... thats it. His user account can't touch anything system critical. The infection ends there. Sysadmin logs in removes the infected account and all is well. So while security issues exist, and it is somewhat the fault of the end users, operating system design is key too. There is a reason that windows is switching to multi-user operating system design - and that is that it is simply superior in many ways once of which is system security. linux has a history of a well designed core of muli-user seperation. Windows will catch up to that design eventually but its taken them long enough.
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You know, attempting to argue the superiority or just plain equality of a monopoly software on a forum dedicated to an open-source video game might be somewhat difficult.
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You know, attempting to argue the superiority or just plain equality of a monopoly software on a forum dedicated to an open-source video game might be somewhat difficult.
Difficult but not impossible. :D I don't hate windows, I just have disagreements with business practices. I don't blame MS for these tactics - its a business thing - they aren't the only ones doing it and they won't be the last. There are good points to be discussed and it is definately true that with some dedication and effort a person can reasonably secure a windows box.
But overall you are right. Alot of people begin to enjoy games like PS because of its open feel. Many people here use MS alternatives like BSD, Linux, and OSX. These people have switched for various reasons but in the end most are not big MS Fanboys.
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The words "O/S Flame war" were mentioned and so I had to be here...
1. There is no correlation between number of users and number of vulnerabilities.
Technically correct, but its not vulnerabilities that matter, its known vulnerabilities, and I would say there is some correlation between those and number of users.
2. Microsoft, as a corporation, has little reason to seek out and patch coded vulnerabilites which are not already known.
Thats like saying any company 'has little reason to improve its product'. There is a huge reason, that is, consumer satisfaction, and making sure they dont go to another product. But, I see your point, mainly in that there is no realistic alternative to windows that alot of people could go to, and so there is no reason to improve their product.
3. Linux is highly modularized, and proper user permissions can limit the extent of the damage.
Its a trade-off between security, and letting people who arent that great with computers be able to still use them. Im not sure how many normal windows users (read: 90+% of the modern western population) could handle properly managing permissions. Maybe they could, but it would take lots of explaining, and alot of pain to do it.
4. Most linux users aren't stupid enough to click here to get bonzai buddy.
Thats because intelligent people are attracted to linux. If the 90% of windows users started using linux, they wouldnt magically grow some intelligence, and they'd still click that bonzai buddy. Linux is blessed with a (relatively) intelligent user base. That doesnt mean windows is crap software, it means that alot of the users are stupid.
You know, attempting to argue the superiority or just plain equality of a monopoly software on a forum dedicated to an open-source video game might be somewhat difficult.
Why does it matter where the discussion is being held? Facts are facts. Arguing on the internet with the intent to 'win' or convert people is retarded in the first place. All you can realistically hope to do is put out your point and express your opinions. And I'd much rather do that where people dont agree with my opinions, then preaching to the converted, per se.
I hear people using the "I don't trust software from the interenet it might be spyware itself" arguement alot, but come on. WIndows itself uses its little wga checker to send stats back to Microsoft. It dials home constantly. Who knows what it does precisely.
Who knows? Uh, I could, using etheral if I could be bothered. I dont base my computing software needs on vague conspiracy theories. It is however FACT that there are 'anti spyware' programs that are spyware in themselves, and if someones been foolish enough to get spyware on their computer in the first place, I think a little paranoia about downloading programs from then on might be a good thing ;)
No - seriously its an all encompasing suite of crap. We're required to remove it from every computer we process at my place of work. There are better free alternatives.
Norton is quite possibly the worst, most useless, complete utter crap peice of software I have ever encountered. It should be burnt wherever encountered. It is spawn of evil.
Considering the fact that unix and linux servers dominate gov and college campus's and servers, it is actually the OS that is attempted to be brute force hacked more than any other.
Thats a bit of a different situation- you have clearly competent (I'd hope!) admins looking after the computers and the software. The 'noob' users arent responsible for setting up and maintaining the computers themselves. So you can easily put them in a sandbox and not let them touch anything important, like (Im guessing- Im not a windows system admin) you can do on windows. (I do know you can deny alot of permissions on windows, but as I said, I'm not an admin).
Of course once MS releases Vista and forces people to upgrade (down the road when they stop selling and support for XP) you will really be in trouble as from what I've heard you will have less control of your machine and they will have more intrusive powers over what you can do with it. I am simplifying, of course, but take a look on the web beyond the windows hype and you may be disturbed.
OMG WINDOWS ARE SPYWAREZ THEY WILL FORCE YOU TO UPGRADEZ THEN THEY SPY ON YOU!!!! KEKEKE LOZ!!!111oneone.
I think the best defence to this is, ironically, windows supposed 'insecurity'- In reply to the numerous conspiracy theories, Microsoft has said basically "Dont you think, that if we had some sort of backdoor in our program for a non-published reason (read: CIA or FBI access, etc), then someone would find out about it? It would be impossible to hide". You dont trust microsoft to keep a secure system, yet you think they could expertly hide something liek a system spyer or backdoor on there without anyone finding out about it? If it was hardcoded, and a hacker found it, think of the vulnerabilities... It might kind of seem possible to you, but if you're the head of a Multi billion dollar software development company with everything to lose (and tens of thousands of employees to silence, as well), I dont think you're going to be doing that. Nearly everything about how the windows O/S is uncovered by hackers, so how would they hide something this big?? (That, not to mention, could easily be found out via a simple snoop on your network traffic).
So, if we depart imagination conspiracy land and venture back into reality, you will see Mircrosoft windows is an O/S that, while not being perfect, caters to the needs of the general population of computing users, and does that better than anybody else. Thats why they're so successful.
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Heh ramlambmoo, can I please print out flyers with your posting on them? I couldn't agree more, on every part of it.
The constant need of pure linux users trying to convince all the other people of its greatness is just as disgusting as the one of the macintosh disciples. In the end, you use what you like best. And what do you like best? The thing that best suits your needs. ;)
I'd love to use linux more myself (the prices of linux software are just unbeatable ;)), but the usability still rather is "meh!". It has improved a lot over the past 7 years (I remember my first linux install back then vividly), but still has a long way to go. For me, usability is most important. Having studied and graduated computer sciences, I'm certainly not a computer illiterate. I can keep a linux box running, but I'm only willing to go through the troubles for experimental purposes. ;)
The great variety of alternative programs and desktop actually hinders linux in some way (different look and more importantly feel if many applications), so I can't really let that count as a pure "pro"-argument.
So, if we depart imagination conspiracy land and venture back into reality, you will see Mircrosoft windows is an O/S that, while not being perfect, caters to the needs of the general population of computing users, and does that better than anybody else. Thats why they're so successful.
That, in the end, is the bottom line.
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This is the best spyware trojan adware remover I have found for windows
It is not automated, meaning you have to remove items from your registry manually but it gets them ALL, including those spybot misses, oh and it is free.
http://www.download.com/Bazooka-Adware-and-Spyware-Scanner/3000-8022-10247782.html
I second the endorsement of firefox.
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I'd love to use linux more myself (the prices of linux software are just unbeatable ;)), but the usability still rather is "meh!". It has improved a lot over the past 7 years (I remember my first linux install back then vividly), but still has a long way to go. For me, usability is most important. Having studied and graduated computer sciences, I'm certainly not a computer illiterate. I can keep a linux box running, but I'm only willing to go through the troubles for experimental purposes. ;)
I really suppose it depends on what you need to do with your computer. I find Linux suits nearly every purpose I have for a computer. It is a little light on games. I have no real need for a word processor; neither, I think, do most people, however their expectations have been trained to require one. How did the business world get along before there were computers and only manual typewriters or before that? Why is it that I have to use a Microsoft proprietary format to send someone a resume?
As far as keeping a Linux box running goes for the most part there is no troubles. It is true that there is not optimal support for all possible equipment but it is getting better, part of the reason for that is the unfair business practices of the Beast of Redmond.
So, if we depart imagination conspiracy land and venture back into reality, you will see Mircrosoft windows is an O/S that, while not being perfect, caters to dictates the needs of the general population of computing users, and does that better than anybody else. Thats why they're so successful.
Fixed that for you.
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I have no real need for a word processor; neither, I think, do most people, however their expectations have been trained to require one. How did the business world get along before there were computers and only manual typewriters or before that? Why is it that I have to use a Microsoft proprietary format to send someone a resume?
Thats a ridiculous claim. I take it you have never worked in a serious office environment before. Businesses dont need word processors, but it sure as hell makes their life alot easier, and their business alot more productive. My office would hardly be able to function without word processing software. I've used MS Word about 6 or 7 times today to do complex functions (Mail merges on data extracted from Excel, Changed letter templates to suit what I needed to do, modified old documents for new projects, etc) that would have been absolute mind numbing hell on a typewriter. You could perhaps claim that we dont need MS Word (Open office could do all these things) but to say Word Processors are of neglible value is complete insanity, and just wrong.
Before computers came along, business were alot less productive, and had ALOT more manual paperwork to do.
As far as keeping a Linux box running goes for the most part there is no troubles. It is true that there is not optimal support for all possible equipment but it is getting better, part of the reason for that is the unfair business practices of the Beast of Redmond.
Yeah well its not that hard to keep a windows box running either. It's expected that computer these days should keep running for a certain period of time, I would say.
So, if we depart imagination conspiracy land and venture back into reality, you will see Mircrosoft windows is an O/S that, while not being perfect, dictates the needs of the general population of computing users, and does that better than anybody else. Thats why they're so successful.
I disagree with your opinion. It would be the greatest marketing ploy in history if microsoft, as you seem to be claiming, invented this entire new market for goods that nobody really needed and then proceeded to sell Billions upon Billions of dollars of them, and were so successful at it that multiple other companies starting doing the same. Billions of dollars of products that dont cater to the needs of the general population and businesses over 20 years? And all this time these millions of businesses never discovered that these products are not what they actually wanted? Dont you think if it was not what they wanted (or was not the best solution for what they wanted) then they might, oh, I dunno, not buy them?
Again, once we get out of conspiracy land and into reality, we see that Microsoft products do actually cater to a freakin huge and real market of people who, strangely enough, know what they want, and see that microsoft (better than anyone else) delivers it. These people who have built up businesses arent quite as naive when it comes to choosing products as you like to think they are.
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I have no real need for a word processor; neither, I think, do most people, however their expectations have been trained to require one. How did the business world get along before there were computers and only manual typewriters or before that? Why is it that I have to use a Microsoft proprietary format to send someone a resume?
Thats a ridiculous claim.
Not really. It should perhaps have been separated from the bit about the business world which is a bit of a red herring. Most people don't work in a serious business environment where pushing paper is the raison d'etre. I certainly don't need it for personal communication, plain text is fine for my purposes. Sending out the same Christmas letter to your address book is kind of impersonal don't you think? These things are little better than spam to me.
I've used MS Word about 6 or 7 times today to do complex functions (Mail merges on data extracted from Excel, Changed letter templates to suit what I needed to do, modified old documents for new projects, etc) that would have been absolute mind numbing hell on a typewriter.
Ohh MadlibsTM, form letters. Are you disrespecting your Grandmothers life? or your Great-Great-Grandfathers? Just where did all those secretaries go? Are they working at Walmart or McDonalds now? Surely that is a step up for society.
I disagree with your opinion. It would be the greatest marketing ploy in history if microsoft, as you seem to be claiming, invented this entire new market for goods that nobody really needed and then proceeded to sell Billions upon Billions of dollars of them, and were so successful at it that multiple other companies starting doing the same. Billions of dollars of products that dont cater to the needs of the general population and businesses over 20 years? And all this time these millions of businesses never discovered that these products are not what they actually wanted? Dont you think if it was not what they wanted (or was not the best solution for what they wanted) then they might, oh, I dunno, not buy them?
I think the greatest marketing ploy in history came from Debeers who convinced generations of women that diamonds were valuable. They are not. They are about as common as amethyst. The only reason they are expensive is that Debeers stockpiles (picks number out of hat) 90% and only lets a trickle go to market. Good Monopoly tactics. Speaking of monopoly tactics ... low and behold, Microsoft is a convicted monopolist too. It is not too hard to dominate an industry if you shrewdly take advantage of others shortsightedness some of the time and cheat the rest. I guess that is the New American Dream, the one for the elite not the masses. They can keep the old saw about hard work paying off in the end.
After all "DOS ain't done till Lotus won't run." Cling to your illusions, just don't try to sell them to me.
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Not really. It should perhaps have been separated from the bit about the business world which is a bit of a red herring. Most people don't work in a serious business environment where pushing paper is the raison d'etre. I certainly don't need it for personal communication, plain text is fine for my purposes. Sending out the same Christmas letter to your address book is kind of impersonal don't you think? These things are little better than spam to me.
Well speak for yourself, not for most people. I certaintly have no need for a word processor for home use (notepad is fine, thanks), apart from typing up the occasional resume. But its dictated by your needs. Once you get a job in the business world you'll find word completly invaluable. And if I were to get a job that required me to take work home, then I would certaintly get word.
Ohh MadlibsTM, form letters. Are you disrespecting your Grandmothers life? or your Great-Great-Grandfathers? Just where did all those secretaries go? Are they working at Walmart or McDonalds now? Surely that is a step up for society.
Wow, so now linux is not only a better operating system, but its 'better for society'? Or are you arguing against the effect of computers in general on our society? Either way your point is completly irrelivant and off the topic.
Having these tools increases productivity. That is what I'm saying. Whether that is good for society or not is a compeletly different issue, and shouldn't be brought into such a discussion. You're just going off on tangents.
I think the greatest marketing ploy in history came from Debeers who convinced generations of women that diamonds were valuable. They are not. They are about as common as amethyst. The only reason they are expensive is that Debeers stockpiles (picks number out of hat) 90% and only lets a trickle go to market. Good Monopoly tactics.
Traditionally included in the cardinal, or most valuable, gemstones (along with diamond, sapphire, ruby and emerald), amethyst has lost much of its value due to the discovery of extensive deposits in locations such as Brazil.
They [Diamonds] have been treasured as gemstones since their use as religious icons in India at least 2,500 years ago—and usage in drill bits and engraving tools also dates to early human history.
I think you're wrong, and that you've over simplified the situation. But diamonds have nothing to do with the situation so I wont get drawn into a discussion on them.
Speaking of monopoly tactics ... low and behold, Microsoft is a convicted monopolist too. It is not too hard to dominate an industry if you shrewdly take advantage of others shortsightedness some of the time and cheat the rest. I guess that is the New American Dream, the one for the elite not the masses. They can keep the old saw about hard work paying off in the end.
Im not going to argue against conspiracy theories.
"Linux is better because Technology is bad for Society; Linux is better because the world was better in the old days and we shouldnt disrespect their way of life; Linux is better because De Beers has an unfair monopoly on the Diamond Trade; Linux is better because people dont actually need Word Processors they just think they do; Linux is a better O/S because Microsoft is unethical; Linux is better because these new fangled people aren't respecting the old sayings about hard work".
My only reply: Windows is successful because it provides a product which improves productivity for a large number of people, and it does that better than any alternative.
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Do you know what the main difference between DOS 6.0, 6.1 and 6.2 was? I'll tell you anyway. DOS 6.0 came with this nfty new idea, drive compression. Only problem was Microsoft didn't write it, didn't own it and didn't pay for it. DOS 6.1 was essentially the same product without the disk compression as the owners of that software had received judicial relief ( an injunction preventing MS from distributing it. DOS 6.2 was again essentially the same but now MS had financially crippled through legal costs the other company to such a point that there was a settlement and MS got their license.
Did you know that MS has been backing SCO through a third party in their futile lawsuit against I suppose it is Novell now for their baseless claims that the Linux kernel contains SCO proprietary code. Sco has not offered one shred of proof and would have gone under long since if not for MS trying to protect their monopoly.
Open Source software IS better for society but if all you want is a security blanket be my guest and keep propping up the Monopolists. I am sure they will happily take your money while they take away your privacy and rights.
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Do you know what the main difference between DOS 6.0, 6.1 and 6.2 was? I'll tell you anyway. DOS 6.0 came with this nfty new idea, drive compression. Only problem was Microsoft didn't write it, didn't own it and didn't pay for it. DOS 6.1 was essentially the same product without the disk compression as the owners of that software had received judicial relief ( an injunction preventing MS from distributing it. DOS 6.2 was again essentially the same but now MS had financially crippled through legal costs the other company to such a point that there was a settlement and MS got their license.
Thats great. That has nothing to do with the topic.
Did you know that MS has been backing SCO through a third party in their futile lawsuit against I suppose it is Novell now for their baseless claims that the Linux kernel contains SCO proprietary code. Sco has not offered one shred of proof and would have gone under long since if not for MS trying to protect their monopoly.
SCO was/is funded by The Canopy Group which is an investment firm founded by Ray Noorda. [Wikipedia]. If you have any actual evidence of microsoft involvement in that, feel free to bring it forward. If not stop making baseless claims.
Open Source software IS better for society but if all you want is a security blanket be my guest and keep propping up the Monopolists. I am sure they will happily take your money while they take away your privacy and rights.
All I want is an operating system that works and is easy for ordinary users to use. And windows does that better than linux. If all you want is some grand conspiracy theory run by the greedy, evil capaitalists then theorise away, but do yourself a favor dont try and convince me of your ridiculous claims. Better still, try paying a visit to the real world and see how things actually work in reality.
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It's funny that, I never once mentioned conspiracies.
BTW here is that link you asked for:
http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=2006100801442692
As far as it being of topic ... well topics change as threads unfold. If you would like we could move the conversation elsewhere.
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It's funny that, I never once mentioned conspiracies.
Of course you didnt, conspiracy theorists dont like to think of their version of things as being far flung conspiracies. 'Conspiracy' has negative connotations if you're presenting a point of view, so why then would you use it? But I stand by my comment.
BTW here is that link you asked for:
http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=2006100801442692
From that Page:
Mr. Goldfarb testifies that Richard Emerson, a Microsoft senior vice president, approached him "sometime in 2003" about investing in SCO. Mr. Emerson, who is no longer with Microsoft, "stated that Microsoft wished to promote SCO and its pending lawsuit against IBM and the Linux operating system. But Microsoft did not want to be seen as attacking IBM or Linux," Mr. Goldfarb testified.
That "Microsoft wished to promote SCO". Wished to Promote SCO, not did. What company wouldnt "Wish to" promote a company thats conducting litigation against it's rival? Theres no hard evidence there that Microsoft actually did anything and in fact the article mentions that SCO stock was sold when they realised Microsoft would not actually do anything of the sort:
But the kicker was he began to realize that Microsoft, whose senior VP of corporate development and strategy had promised that Microsoft would in some way guarantee the SCO investment, started showing signs it might not do that after all.
So, theres no actual proof of anything there.
The article you gave actually describes the whole incident as a "crazy allegation".
As far as it being of topic ... well topics change as threads unfold. If you would like we could move the conversation elsewhere.
The whole O/S discussion was already off topic, and then you further bring in unrelated incidents that have nothing to do with even that discussion. If you just keep going off on tangents then a discussion will never get anywhere. Unless you'd like to explain how DOS versions 6.0-6.2 and the De Beers Diamond trade specifically relate to the issue I was discussing, I'd prefer them not to be mentioned, and at a minimum, I'm not going to discuss them. Discussions can move off topic, but only when multiple people agree to discuss that topic instead.
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Whatever you like. Tell me then exactly what is it I am try to say the conspiracy is? Am I accusing Microsoft of unsavory business practices of which they are innocent? By labelling anything someone says against Microsoft as being some sort of conspiracy nonsense you are framing the debate falsely. I think you must be part of the pro-Microsoft conspiracy fringe, "they never did anything wrong, they just want to serve society and money means nothing to them." How do you like them apples?
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So the conspiracy theory is just a crazy allegation?
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Which, the one he claims I subscribe to or the one I accused him of subscribing to?
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oh good, glad to see this heat back up, my marshmellows were getting cold afterall. these smores don't cook to well without the heat.
And back on somewhat of the topic of m$ versus "teh penguin", I use microsoft. I like linux, but I find it much easier to run windows for everything I need, and I don't have problems with windows lackluster security, simply becuase I don't click on that bonzai buddy pop up, to put it in simplest terms. Sure I could do pretty much everything under linux, but I have been keeping up with it's developement for a few good years now, and I just don't see any major reason why I should switch. Now, if m$ decided to stop support of xp, and I start to have problems doing things I need to do, then I will look to Linux as a sound option. I haven't bought a windows os since 95, and that was becuase it came installed on the gateway pc. All the other versions over the years have been through school. I won't ever pay for something that isn't bug free and guranteed to work, so unless m$ decides to make Vista free, well, I'm sticking with xp until I'm forced to change becuase it can't do what I need it to do.
When you get down to it, the decision of which OS is better, is only your personal opinion. That opinoin should be based on yourself getting familiar with both choices and determining which one is going to suit your needs the best. This isn't too say that there aren't die hards on either side of the fense though.
I use windows becuase it's what I am most familiar with, it's what I use all over the place at work (minus the *nix server machines we have), and after comparing the two, it suits my needs with the smallest amount of fuss involved. Now as linux keeps growing and evolving over the next few years, that may change, and I may switch.
As I see it right now though, windows is more computer illiterate user friendly, and since that's the by far majority of computer users, thats why it will be popular. Linux may be the better OS in terms of security and all that, but if the computer illiterate person can't just boot it up, and start clicking, then it won't ever become the standard workstation OS. Windows caters to the general mass, the general mass just happens to be computer illiterate. *nix caters to those with a bit more knowledge and assumes the user knows what they are doing for the most part. Both OS cater towards a very different group of people. Even though this is true, that doesn't neccessarily mean one is "teh l33test" over the other.
Oh, and macs are just for people who like pretty colors. :P
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Tell me then exactly what is it I am try to say the conspiracy is?
Did you know that MS has been backing SCO through a third party in their futile lawsuit against I suppose it is Novell now for their baseless claims that the Linux kernel contains SCO proprietary code. Sco has not offered one shred of proof and would have gone under long since if not for MS trying to protect their monopoly.
I think the greatest marketing ploy in history came from Debeers who convinced generations of women that diamonds were valuable. They are not. They are about as common as amethyst. The only reason they are expensive is that Debeers stockpiles (picks number out of hat) 90% and only lets a trickle go to market.
It is true that there is not optimal support for all possible equipment but it is getting better, part of the reason for that is the unfair business practices of the Beast of Redmond.
...a word processor; neither, I think, do most people, however their expectations have been trained to require one. How did the business world get along before there were computers and only manual typewriters or before that? Why is it that I have to use a Microsoft proprietary format to send someone a resume?
I am sure they will happily take your money while they take away your privacy and rights.
You said that MS has been backing SCO in order to propogate a lawsuit against linux. You have not provided any evidence of this actually happening.
You think that diamonds are as common as amethysts and that De Beers has stockpiled 90% of the world's diamonds and is only selling a few (Despite the fact that De Beers only sells 60% of the world diamonds on the market- wikipedia).
You think that business practices from Microsoft are to blame for poor hardware support in linux, but gave no evidence.
You think that Businesses would be fine without word processors and that word processors are an unecessary software that pretty much the entire world has been tricked into buying over and over.
You think that microsoft is taking away privacy and rights.
None of the claims you have made have been backed up by facts. That is why I call it a 'conspiracy theory'. Microsoft conspiring with SCO, De Beers conspiring to keep Diamonds under their control, Microsoft conspiring with Hardware manufactors, etc.
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You said that MS has been backing SCO in order to propogate a lawsuit against linux. You have not provided any evidence of this actually happening.
Well if it was good enough to put in front of the Judge who are you to say it was not evidence?
You think that diamonds are as common as amethysts and that De Beers has stockpiled 90% of the world's diamonds and is only selling a few (Despite the fact that De Beers only sells 60% of the world diamonds on the market- wikipedia).
De Beers was founded on 13 March 1888 -wikipedia, that 60%? excludes Canada and Russia looks like it might be out of date
http://www.debeerscanada.com/ and was a relatively recent occurance.
You think that business practices from Microsoft are to blame for poor hardware support in linux, but gave no evidence.
If I see a man in a bank with a mask and a gun I am not going to conclude he is trick or treating, I gave you a specific instance of a prior Microsoft bad act (DOS 6 anyone?) you claimed it was irrelevant and off-topic.
You think that Businesses would be fine without word processors and that word processors are an unecessary software that pretty much the entire world has been tricked into buying over and over.
You think that microsoft is taking away privacy and rights.
Word Processors today are extremely bloated with plenty of features few people need included just to keep the price high and to ensure customers have to keep buying updates. What feature of the most recent update could you not do without?
None of the claims you have made have been backed up by facts. That is why I call it a 'conspiracy theory'. Microsoft conspiring with SCO, De Beers conspiring to keep Diamonds under their control, Microsoft conspiring with Hardware manufactors, etc.
And yet you have presented no facts which counter any of my arguments instead relying on labelling them derisively.
You claim Windows is easy to use, where is your evidence for that? Would it be the thousands of computers that have been compromised and turned into zombies? If that is a proper function of an easy to use computer I'll eat my hat. If it isn't a proper function then perhaps it is not quite so easy.
It is no more difficult to use a properly set up Linux box or Mac than it is to use a properly set up Windows box, you point and you click, maybe once maybe twice. Then you type or you point and click some more. The main difference is that the Linux box or Mac is more likely to be set up properly in the first place.
You claim that it is not vulnerabilities that matter but that it is known vulnerabilities but you fail to specify who it is that knows what. If MS knows about a vulnerability but doesn't tell anyone or claims it isn't a bug its a feature is it "known"? If security researcher "A" knows about it but doesn't tell anyone is it "known"? If Cracker group "B" knows about it but tells no-one but uses it to steal your data is it "known"? If "A" and "B" are actively searching for it for their own purposes in what way does it not matter it will be found.
BTW Selling data-mined information has become big business. Why wouldn't Unethical Megacorp want to get in on the action?
BTW2 I really loved your discription of Windows as for really stupid people which you imply is the majority of the population.
Thats because intelligent people are attracted to linux. If the 90% of windows users started using linux, they wouldnt magically grow some intelligence, and they'd still click that bonzai buddy. Linux is blessed with a (relatively) intelligent user base. That doesnt mean windows is crap software, it means that alot of the users are stupid.
Im not sure how many normal windows users (read: 90+% of the modern western population) could handle properly managing permissions.
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Well if it was good enough to put in front of the Judge who are you to say it was not evidence?
People put a lot of things infront of judges. What matters is if the judge throws it out or not.
If I see a man in a bank with a mask and a gun I am not going to conclude he is trick or treating, I gave you a specific instance of a prior Microsoft bad act (DOS 6 anyone?) you claimed it was irrelevant and off-topic.
I don't think this answers the question.
Word Processors today are extremely bloated with plenty of features few people need included just to keep the price high and to ensure customers have to keep buying updates.
Again, this doesn't answer the question. Also, it's pretty much mere assertion - there are plenty of other reasons why word processors have had more features added to them over time. You're reaching on this one.
And yet you have presented no facts which counter any of my arguments instead relying on labelling them derisively.
He who claims must prove his claims.
Thats because intelligent people are attracted to linux..
Ok, this is a definate troll comment.
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Hey Bilbous, I just wanted to say I support totally you on this one, and I think you're losing your time talking to sheeps that just don't even know what Linux looks like ... Anyway, great arguments Bilbous ! :thumbup:
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Hey Bilbous, I just wanted to say I support totally you on this one, and I think you're losing your time talking to sheeps that just don't even know what Linux looks like ... Anyway, great arguments Bilbous ! :thumbup:
Hey! Linux is great, but Bilbous's comment was just trolling! Don't think for a second that I don't have appreciation for Linux!
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Well if it was good enough to put in front of the Judge who are you to say it was not evidence?
Literally anything can be put forward to a Judge. But it was not proven, therefore it is not a fact. That’s what matters.
De Beers was founded on 13 March 1888 -wikipedia, that 60%? excludes Canada and Russia looks like it might be out of date
http://www.debeerscanada.com/ and was a relatively recent occurance.
Could you point to any specific page on De Beers that answers the question of what % of the Diamond trade they control?
It says nowhere that the 60% excludes Canada and Russia, and if it did, the percentage would be even lower, because there are many mines outside their traditional mining sites. In fact further in the article it says their share today is probably an even lower 50% or less.
STILL I don’t see what De Beers has to do with anything at all. Its all good and nice and interesting to discuss, but it has absolutely no relevance, unless you'd like to enlighten us.
If I see a man in a bank with a mask and a gun I am not going to conclude he is trick or treating, I gave you a specific instance of a prior Microsoft bad act (DOS 6 anyone?) you claimed it was irrelevant and off-topic.
I didn't ask for a "Microsoft Bad Act", I asked for specific proof of your claim that "business practices from Microsoft are to blame for poor hardware support in linux". DOS has nothing to do with Hardware support in Linux, unless there’s a connection here none of us are seeing.
Word Processors today are extremely bloated with plenty of features few people need included just to keep the price high and to ensure customers have to keep buying updates. What feature of the most recent update could you not do without?
Hang on, first you said we didn’t need word processors at all, now you're saying we don’t necessarily need the latest ones. Make your mind up about what you're arguing. I couldn’t live without Mail merge, compatibility with excel, full support for different label sizes, VBA support (with editor), Autosave functions, Outlining views, Document changes tracking. I don’t use the very latest version of word because I dont know of any critical features I'd need- but I'm sure if I checked it out I would find features that improved by productivity. Before I took an actual course in word I thought I knew everything about it; then I was actually forced to use some more advanced features and found I could do things alot faster and more accurately.
Speaking of which, do you work in an office environment? Are you responsible for organising document distribution and conducting mail outs to clients? How exactly would you have complete knowledge of other people's needs enough to say that these features are just 'bloat'? You're displaying your narrow minded view again.
And yet you have presented no facts which counter any of my arguments instead relying on labelling them derisively.
On the contrary; I read and quoted from the SCO link you provided, I gave quotes of facts from wikipedia relating to the De Beers diamond trade, to name a few. Most of the time I don’t bother countering your arguments because they're not relevant at all! I don’t care about the De Beers diamond trade or DOS 6.0 unless you can tell me how they relate to the issue at hand, which is windows ease of use for ordinary users. You're just clutching at straws and going off on tangents every time I try and steer the topic back to what we were originally arguing about!
"Oh, linux sucks!? Well De Beers has a Diamond monopoly! Yeah! What do you say to that, huh? Windows? What about word processors, we don’t need them at aaaaall, man...."
You claim Windows is easy to use, where is your evidence for that? Would it be the thousands of computers that have been compromised and turned into zombies? If that is a proper function of an easy to use computer I'll eat my hat. If it isn't a proper function then perhaps it is not quite so easy.
The fact that windows has 90% of the market share. You and I no doubt agree that Linux is technically superior, so what then is the reason why Windows is many many times more popular? I don’t think, in all of the business fields something as technical as computing, you can dominate ninety percent of the market without having a decent product.
It is no more difficult to use a properly set up Linux box or Mac than it is to use a properly set up Windows box, you point and you click, maybe once maybe twice. Then you type or you point and click some more. The main difference is that the Linux box or Mac is more likely to be set up properly in the first place.
You just accuse me of making unfounded claims about ease of use, then you go and make on yourself. What brand of Linux can be installed and setup in two clicks? Give me a link?
You claim that it is not vulnerabilities that matter but that it is known vulnerabilities but you fail to specify who it is that knows what. If MS knows about a vulnerability but doesn't tell anyone or claims it isn't a bug its a feature is it "known"? If security researcher "A" knows about it but doesn't tell anyone is it "known"? If Cracker group "B" knows about it but tells no-one but uses it to steal your data is it "known"? If "A" and "B" are actively searching for it for their own purposes in what way does it not matter it will be found.
I honestly don’t even know what you're trying to say, or what your purpose in saying it is. I mentioned there is a correlation between number of users and number of known security bugs. If you disagree with that, say so. Suffice to say, I know Window's security isnt the best, but its decent, and a professional can easily secure a windows box against viruses and spyware.
BTW Selling data-mined information has become big business. Why wouldn't Unethical Megacorp want to get in on the action?
Because its illegeal, because it would be hard to hide, because they have an ethical duty not to?? Thats like saying "Terroism is big these days, so why wouldnt those arabs over there want to get in on the action"? If you have any actual proof of Microsoft doing anything of the sort, feel free to present it.
BTW2 I really loved your discription of Windows as for really stupid people which you imply is the majority of the population.
Again, making stuff up? Can you please quote where I said that?
Hey Bilbous, I just wanted to say I support totally you on this one, and I think you're losing your time talking to sheeps that just don't even know what Linux looks like ... Anyway, great arguments Bilbous !
Aside from the fact I've used Red Hat, Fedora, Gentoo, Suse, ArcLinux, Mandrake, Debian and Ubuntu along with Windows 95, 98, XP, XP 64-bit and Vista RC1, I'd clearly not know anything about this subject, would I. Oh, and the plural of sheep is sheep, not sheeps, in case you would like to advance your english a bit. Anyway, great arguments mate.
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Let's avoid taking too aggressive or personal of a stance in this thread - there are plenty of bigger things to worry about anyway ;) Like saving whales. Try taking a step back, and if you have specific points to bring up, do so calmly - ultimately you're here to discuss issues, and not jab at each others' possible blunders and oversights. Corrections can be made in a way that progresses a topic instead of digging a rut for it.
So please cool your heads a bit.
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The problem inherent in Windows is exactly that it is catered to a group of users who refuse/can't take the effort to learn "computers."
I could also do pretty much everything I want in Win*, I just have become taken in by a number of features that I can't give up. The solution's pretty obvious, though. For lightweight apps, virtualize (VMware server is free.); for heavyweight apps, dual-boot. I spend most of my computer-time in linux. (Kubuntu specifically.) Once you tweak your configuration and make it your own, it is much more efficient. (I'm also addicted to KDE, which is not properly supported on Windows. In other words, the killer app effect that keeps most people on Windows keeps me on linux.
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The problem inherent in Windows is exactly that it is catered to a group of users who refuse/can't take the effort to learn "computers."
Touche, the problem with linux is that is is catered to a group of users who have a very high level of expertise in computing. In it's current incarnation its simple not suitable for the general user base without it having been configured by someone else. Which I think is definatly a shame, given it's potential.
I could also do pretty much everything I want in Win*, I just have become taken in by a number of features that I can't give up. The solution's pretty obvious, though. For lightweight apps, virtualize (VMware server is free.); for heavyweight apps, dual-boot. I spend most of my computer-time in linux. (Kubuntu specifically.) Once you tweak your configuration and make it your own, it is much more efficient. (I'm also addicted to KDE, which is not properly supported on Windows. In other words, the killer app effect that keeps most people on Windows keeps me on linux.
What features of KDE cant you give up? Not to be dismissive, I'm just interested to see what 'killer app' it has, so to speak. I'd be suprised if it couldnt be done in windows, but of course I dont yet know what these features are.
Personally I dont think I could ever give up windows as my main O/S because of the amount of windows related programming and gaming I do. For performance issues I cant really virtualize, and since I program while doing other basic things (like surfing the net, chatting to people, etc) the platform I use for programming dictates what platform I use for everything.
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So is Linux better than Windows or does it depend what you use your PC for ive often thought about changing to Linux would it be better for my music programs such as Cubase or would that aspect be the same?
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Well if it was good enough to put in front of the Judge who are you to say it was not evidence?
People put a lot of things infront of judges. What matters is if the judge throws it out or not.
What is put before a judge is evidence until the judge says it isn't. Even if it is deemed inadmissable on a technicality it is still evidence.
If I see a man in a bank with a mask and a gun I am not going to conclude he is trick or treating, I gave you a specific instance of a prior Microsoft bad act (DOS 6 anyone?) you claimed it was irrelevant and off-topic.
I don't think this answers the question.
It is an analogy. It means that the best predictor of future actions is past actions. To spell it out for you because Microsoft has in the past used illegal and/or unethical means to achieve their ends there is no reason to doubt that they will again. Does not the U.S. have three strike laws for just this reason? I have no need to prove anything, this is a discussion not a court of law.
Word Processors today are extremely bloated with plenty of features few people need included just to keep the price high and to ensure customers have to keep buying updates.
Again, this doesn't answer the question. Also, it's pretty much mere assertion - there are plenty of other reasons why word processors have had more features added to them over time. You're reaching on this one.
I'm sorry, which question? Try to be specific and help me to help you understand.
And yet you have presented no facts which counter any of my arguments instead relying on labelling them derisively.
He who claims must prove his claims.
Ok Ram claims that Windows is better than Linux. Let's see him have a go at proving that.
Thats because intelligent people are attracted to linux..
Ok, this is a definate troll comment.
As you can see I have modified the post you are quoting and that comment was made by ramlambmoo. I just quoted it. Are you sure I'm the troll? I admit my inventive reading of his comments were meant for their entertainment value. It felt good to hoist him on his own petard.
Now Ram...
Well if it was good enough to put in front of the Judge who are you to say it was not evidence?
Literally anything can be put forward to a Judge. But it was not proven, therefore it is not a fact. That’s what matters.
You didn't ask for facts you asked for evidence. For the moment at least what I refered to is in front of a judge and as such is evidence.
Could you point to any specific page on De Beers that answers the question of what % of the Diamond trade they control?
It says nowhere that the 60% excludes Canada and Russia, and if it did, the percentage would be even lower, because there are many mines outside their traditional mining sites. In fact further in the article it says their share today is probably an even lower 50% or less.
You think that diamonds are as common as amethysts and that De Beers has stockpiled 90% of the world's diamonds and is only selling a few (Despite the fact that De Beers only sells 60% of the world diamonds on the market- wikipedia).
From: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Debeers The De Beers Group is a Johannesburg-based diamond mining and trading corporation. In the 1980's the firm had a near de facto monopoly on the world's diamond trade (80% share), however that share has been reduced to 60%[1] due to discoveries outside of De Beers' control (such as in Russia and Canada).
I posted the link to debeerscanada to show that they have their fingers in the Canadian pie now, as evidence that the wikipedia entry you refered to was indeed as I said out of date. Would you like me to go into wikipedia and update it?
You think that Businesses would be fine without word processors and that word processors are an unecessary software that pretty much the entire world has been tricked into buying over and over.
I said:
I have no real need for a word processor; neither, I think, do most people, however their expectations have been trained to require one. How did the business world get along before there were computers and only manual typewriters or before that?
Please try not to put words in my mouth.
Let's avoid taking too aggressive or personal of a stance in this thread - there are plenty of bigger things to worry about anyway ;) Like saving whales. Try taking a step back, and if you have specific points to bring up, do so calmly - ultimately you're here to discuss issues, and not jab at each others' possible blunders and oversights. Corrections can be made in a way that progresses a topic instead of digging a rut for it.
So please cool your heads a bit.
I hope I have been calm and reasonable enough in my reply.
So is Linux better than Windows or does it depend what you use your PC for ive often thought about changing to Linux would it be better for my music programs such as Cubase or would that aspect be the same?
It really depends on what you use your computer for. I dual boot going into Windows for games that don't have Linux clients. There is software available to run Windows programs in Linux, Wine and it has a couple of for profit spinoffs, Cedega for running Windows games and another one I can't remember the name of for running office apps. I have not experimented with these but they exist. There are a large number of music programs available and even a couple of distributions that are tailored specifically for audio development. Do a search on distrowatch.com. I believe there is one or two livecd based distros which can be used purely be booting from the cd, no need to install anything. I have no experience with this specific type of livecd but I have had very little trouble with generic livecds. I would recommend that anyone who was interested in Linux but did not want to install anything should download a livecd and try it that way. One I have used in the past is called Knoppix. I haven't seen a recent version but it was the original that taught others how to do it.
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What is put before a judge is evidence until the judge says it isn't. Even if it is deemed inadmissable on a technicality it is still evidence.
A technicality like being FALSE?
Genius. Yet another "tactic" - every time you get caught, you will reinterpret your previous statements to mean something other than what they obviously meant originally.
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Ok Ram claims that Windows is better than Linux. Let's see him have a go at proving that.
No, I didn’t claim that at all, and I wont. "Better" is too subjective and you'd have to clearly define it before I would say that. I said windows is easier to use and more aptly suited to general users, and my evidence for that is the fact windows has a 90% share of the operating system market.
What is put before a judge is evidence until the judge says it isn't. Even if it is deemed inadmissable on a technicality it is still evidence.
I asked for evidence that is taken as fact. What you gave about the SCO case wasn’t dismissed on a technicality, it was never proven. If it wasn’t proven, then it isnt fact. You're side stepping the issue by playing on the wording here. What I mean is, I want verifiable facts to back up your claims.
I have no need to prove anything, this is a discussion not a court of law.
No, you don’t have to prove anything, but you don’t have a very convincing argument by just making assertions without backing it up with facts. Anyone can make claims, but a coherent discussion needs those claims to be backed up with actual facts. If no one has to back up claims with facts then anyone can claim anything they like, and theres no discussion at all.
You didn't ask for facts you asked for evidence. For the moment at least what I refered to is in front of a judge and as such is evidence.
Evidence: (n.) "A thing or things helpful in forming a conclusion or judgment". I am asking you to provide facts, to validate your claims. As we don’t have the means to determine whether the SCO claims are facts, we must rely on the courts where this was given as evidence: and if those courts have not verified them as true, then they should not be presented here as being true.
So, let me rephrase: do you have any verified facts to back up your claims?
How did the business world get along before there were computers and only manual typewriters or before that?
Please try not to put words in my mouth.
You asked a rhetorical question about how businesses got along before computers; the implication was that businesses were and are fine without them. If that's not what you meant, then you should have been clear and specific. If you're not clear about the point you're trying to make, I’m going to have to interpret your post as best I can.
If its not what you meant, then what did you mean by that comment and what are you trying to prove by it?
If you did indeed mean that, then my response stands as is.
I posted the link to debeerscanada to show that they have their fingers in the Canadian pie now, as evidence that the wikipedia entry you refered to was indeed as I said out of date. Would you like me to go into wikipedia and update it?
Thanks for the clarification- you should have said that when you posted it, imo. However the article is not out of date as it mentions Canada in the next paragraph- "Currently, De Beers is involved in a joint venture that is developing a diamond prospect in Canada." From the website you provided, "In Canada, De Beers has two advanced projects, which are scheduled to begin production at the end of 2007". Therefore De Beers is not currently producing diamonds in Canada, and the wikipedia article is correct in both its assertions. So please, no, don’t go and update it.
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I think the correct term to use in this instance is: "wtfpwned".
I think ramlambmoo has a good point. If we all just say what we mean the first time we say it, then we'll create less trouble for ourselves later on.
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I think the correct term for most of the exchange between me and him is "spurious debate," well at least on his part. I think the correct term for your interjections is "blatant trolling" but that is just my opinion of course. It all could just be a feeble excuse for humor. Since you have no interest in anything but trying to annoy me I have to conclude this charade. It is too bad you could not take Karyuu's words to heart. Better luck next time.
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You have no idea what a flame war is until you've visited the Rubies of Eventide message board (http://www.cyberwar.com/forums/ubbthreads.php)
Though this is a heated discussion which goes on and on without no end... And yes, I agree with bilbou's term "spurious debate" though just stay away from the personal plane, or this might get grizzly. I have yet to see a real flame war in this forum. Good luck :) And don't you be barbecuing each other on my watch :P
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I think the correct term for most of the exchange between me and him is "spurious debate," well at least on his part. I think the correct term for your interjections is "blatant trolling" but that is just my opinion of course.
This statement is itself an example of trolling. Not only are you trying to bait me into engaging in a flame war with you, but you're ignoring the substance of the posts which have been politely made in response to you.
It all could just be a feeble excuse for humor. Since you have no interest in anything but trying to annoy me I have to conclude this charade. It is too bad you could not take Karyuu's words to heart. Better luck next time.
More textbook trolling on your part, poorly hidden, this time in the form of personal attacks. I'll say it again, this time more politely: This behaviour is not welcomed here.
Edit: Xillix is right. Stop the flaming and get back to the "spurious debate"! :P
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:offtopic:
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the last post i can see referring to anythign related to the original topic, ie spybot programs and other protection software is about 27 posts ago, opn page 3 by Xillix, I may have missed a few but I rthink if this has gone 2 pages withotu mention of the original topic it's run it's course, if you want to debate further, pm, either that or hop on irc and make yourself a #windowsvslinux and have fun..
and referalyl to the originaly topic, i think i laready saidm, I use AVG free edition, lavasoft ad-aware personal, and firefox for a browser.
I am also backed up by common sense not to click on stupid ****, which -really- does help.
anyways, toodles
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I think the correct term for most of the exchange between me and him is "spurious debate," well at least on his part. I think the correct term for your interjections is "blatant trolling" but that is just my opinion of course. It all could just be a feeble excuse for humor. Since you have no interest in anything but trying to annoy me I have to conclude this charade. It is too bad you could not take Karyuu's words to heart. Better luck next time.
I'm inclined to think you're just saying that as a way to get out of the debate because you dont have many valid points left. But suit yourself.
the last post i can see referring to anythign related to the original topic, ie spybot programs and other protection software is about 27 posts ago, opn page 3 by Xillix, I may have missed a few but I rthink if this has gone 2 pages withotu mention of the original topic it's run it's course, if you want to debate further, pm, either that or hop on irc and make yourself a #windowsvslinux and have fun..
and referalyl to the originaly topic, i think i laready saidm, I use AVG free edition, lavasoft ad-aware personal, and firefox for a browser.
Who really cares, the topic has evolved. Its hydlaa plaza after all, so we're entitled to discuss whatever we want, as is my understanding. We've just moved onto something more interesting. If you want to get technical then discussing how it is off topic is off topic itself, so I'll ask you to please refrain from doing that. :offtopic:
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who cares? people looking for an answer to the question, they dont want extra pages full of some other discussion, you can make a new thread for that, i'm not saying it's against the rules, it's just courtesy to keep things as clean as possible.
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random comment... http://www.bash.org/?699308 ;)
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who cares? people looking for an answer to the question, they dont want extra pages full of some other discussion, you can make a new thread for that, i'm not saying it's against the rules, it's just courtesy to keep things as clean as possible.
Yes but the topic pretty much died. The answer(s) to the question were all posted on the first page, and the thread would have died if we didnt continue a different discussion. Those people who want answers can read the first few posts and get them, and we can still discuss our topic.
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/me sighs
who cares if the thread dies, thats what search is for, and it'd make it so much easier to find things if people didnt cram crap into threads their discussion is irrellevant to.
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Touche, the problem with linux is that is is catered to a group of users who have a very high level of expertise in computing. In it's current incarnation its simple not suitable for the general user base without it having been configured by someone else. Which I think is definatly a shame, given it's potential.
I'm not sure I entirely agree. Studies have shown that if you sit down people who have never used a computer before ever, they find
1.) Apple, OSX (it wasn't specific on what version of OSX)
2.) Knoppix
3.) Mandravia Linux
4.) Ubuntu Linux (Hoary Hedgehog was the test version I think)
5.) Windows XP
Were easiest to use in that order. I think this shows a different trend than you see. People who are moderately to well experienced windows users (which is the majority) have been using windows for years. Its not that Linux is really that much more difficult than linux, its that its simly so DIFFERENT. To a new user all environments are foreign. To a windows convert Linux is totally bizarre and difficult because there are already tons and tons of preconceived notions of how things work and where things are located, and how to diagnose problems. This is akin to teaching an old dog new tricks. Its not that it can't be done its just that once you have so completely learned one system, making a clean break and using a new system is very difficult.
I also have some experience with this. I am often called upon to setup computers for older people - 50+ - and find that they don't know the difference between windows and Linux or openoffice and msoffice. To them computers are magical devices. I usually end up setting them up with linux boxes so that I don't have to spend tons of time providing tech support. Most of them want to: Browse the internet, make lists (with word or ooWriter) print things, and send email. Linux handles these tasks flawlessly. The older generation are easily fooled by popups that tell you your computer is infested with viruses and they need to follow these links and purchase this random special software to save their pc from certain doom. I give them Linux boxes and tell them that in the event they DO get something like that not to worry. I tell them that linux is "vaccinated" for all Internet viruses. I rarely have them call me ever again. The ones who get windows though by request (usually from their kids) call me constantly. Despite all precautions you can't stop the end users from F*&KING up the computers with viruses and malware.
That isn't to say that Linux can't be improved, and it IS. Things look better and easier each day. I'm not one of those people who wish doom on Microsoft, I would just like to see their product improve and their market share drop for the sole purpose of creating an actual competitive environment. This will lead to a better product for all involved.
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"Studies have shown" is a dangerous phrase to use. I would want to know how those studies were carried out and I would want to know how they arrived at their conclusions.
As far as off topicness goes: The topic evolved, and that's ok. What's NOT ok is when an individual tries to turn the thread into a flame war. That crap is the real problem.
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"Studies have shown" is a dangerous phrase to use.
I understand that. Unfortunately a quick google search didn't yield the study I had found which was the only one I'd ever found that included several Linux distro's in the mix. As a result I also included references to personal experiences I have had in dealing with people who have never used a PC either in an attempt to substantiate my claims through evidence I've gathered of my own accord. Not perfect, but I am at work - ;D and only can sneak online for finite periods of time.
What's NOT ok is when an individual tries to turn the thread into a flame war. That crap is the real problem.
:D Is your use of vaguely inflammatory rhetoric an attempt at satire? ;) j/k that little bit isn't so bad. Sometimes though I do think your choice of words does more to keep a flame war going than it does to steer it back from the brink. If you really want to turn a discussion back from the brink of going down in flames sometimes it helps to set an example with your posts.
As far as off topicness goes: The topic evolved, and that's ok.
Couldn't agree more. Topics evolve. I never understood the people who hate it when a topic moves beyond its original point. Sometimes everything that needs to be addressed regarding the initial topic gets more or less resolved or is established that it won't be resolved. At this point of the topic wants to turn in a different direction, I say have at it. The only annoying thing is when people make a conscious attempt to steer a discussion away from a legitimate discussion.
But uhhh...
LINUX IS OMG THE BEST LAWL WINDOZE SUCKSORS!
/me couldn't resist!
;) ;)
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but: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1yP9pvm4JLI
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Is your use of vaguely inflammatory rhetoric an attempt at satire?
You know as well as I do that there's a difference between saying something someone might not like and saying something which is a useless and petty personal attack. Granted, both statements can be used to try to provoke a flame war, but it's harder to give someone the benefit of the doubt in the second case.
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I know, it just struck me as slightly amusing. I couldn't resist the urge to poke a bit of fun :-*
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Holy Frak, this thread got out of hand. A whole page of arguing in less than 2400.
ramlambmoo:
The problem inherent in Windows is exactly that it is catered to a group of users who refuse/can't take the effort to learn "computers."
Touche, the problem with linux is that is is catered to a group of users who have a very high level of expertise in computing. In it's current incarnation its simple not suitable for the general user base without it having been configured by someone else. Which I think is definatly a shame, given it's potential.
I used to keep a copy of a german usage (this one: http://www.linux-usability.de/download/linux_usability_report_en.pdf, specifically,) which placed them rather close to each other in terms of usability. Induane's already addressed the new users bit, but I prefer that it expects the user to know what it is they're doing. I really don't like being treated otherwise.
What features of KDE cant you give up? Not to be dismissive, I'm just interested to see what 'killer app' it has, so to speak. I'd be suprised if it couldnt be done in windows, but of course I dont yet know what these features are.
Well, basically: I've changed my key bindings to ring up a number of applications on command (using the 'win' key to assign to applications is marvelous, everyone should do it.); then there's the other configuring of things like the panels, (I have one on top, one of bottom, and another one which pop out from the side,); I also have four virtual desktops, and I miss them dearly in Windows; and finally the numerous other little tweakable things which are as I want them. For applications: Amarok (a music player), KNotes (post-its), Evolution (groupware client), Kdissert (a mind mapping tool), x64 GIMP, K3B (CD&DVD burning), Konqueror (Filemanager/Browser), vobcopy (I rip DVD's to the HDD to watch later), and a number of the little helper applications that accompany the DE's. Those are all native-only or port-troublesome apps. Oh, and SSH.
Linux: symbolic and hard linking, BASH (command line), flexible filesystems, user permissions. The command line is natively supported, and I can make calls to GUI apps from it for automation, or proper batch processing. I do not want to learn another command line, especially when the developers have pretty much isolated it.
...and personally I LOVE the KDE developer's philosophy of UI design.
Personally I dont think I could ever give up windows as my main O/S because of the amount of windows related programming and gaming I do. For performance issues I cant really virtualize, and since I program while doing other basic things (like surfing the net, chatting to people, etc) the platform I use for programming dictates what platform I use for everything.
As for programming platform being your total platform; I understand. Such makes sense.
I actually dual-boot because I still like video games, and some other software not available for linux (proper techno-creation software is something that's a work in progress right now.)
Gharan:
So is Linux better than Windows or does it depend what you use your PC for ive often thought about changing to Linux would it be better for my music programs such as Cubase or would that aspect be the same?
Speaking of which, linux is not windows: http://linux.oneandoneis2.org/LNW1.htm, and I doubt Cubase would work.
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I just wrote a half hour response, before accidently clicking the stupid, useless, 'back' button on my mouse which told my browser to go back and delete what I wrote... :@#\ I'm taking that as divine intervention to leave this thread alone. :sleeping:
Unless I decide to re write it, which is a possibility.
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Oh, and SSH.
PuTTY http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~sgtatham/putty/ is a pretty good ssh client for windows. It has its own user interface (pops up in a window) and supports telnet and SSH 1&2.
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I used to keep a copy of a german usage (this one: http://www.linux-usability.de/download/linux_usability_report_en.pdf, specifically,) which placed them rather close to each other in terms of usability. Induane's already addressed the new users bit, but I prefer that it expects the user to know what it is they're doing. I really don't like being treated otherwise.
I had a big look at that, but my response got chewed by this stupid mouse. Have to wait for a re-write, sorry.
Well, basically: I've changed my key bindings to ring up a number of applications on command (using the 'win' key to assign to applications is marvelous, everyone should do it.)
I use autohotkey, which provides the same functions.
Then there's the other configuring of things like the panels, (I have one on top, one of bottom, and another one which pop out from the side,); I also have four virtual desktops, and I miss them dearly in Windows
Windows XP Powertools, which is an addon pack (free) released by Microsoft, features virtual desktops (up to 4). Not sure about panels.
and finally the numerous other little tweakable things which are as I want them. For applications: Amarok (a music player)
Plenty of music players avaliable for windows.
KNotes (post-its)
The new windows vista has a post-it notes gadget avaliable for the sidebar that does this.
Evolution (groupware client), Kdissert (a mind mapping tool)
Not sure what these are, I dont use them.
x64 GIMP
I think you can edit images in windows.
K3B (CD&DVD burning)
Plenty of software to do this.. windows vista has CD&DVD burning native.
Konqueror (Filemanager/Browser)
IE7&windows explorer is finally reasonable in this area... I wouldnt have said that previously with IE6.
vobcopy (I rip DVD's to the HDD to watch later)
Can do as well with programs on windows.
and a number of the little helper applications that accompany the DE's. Those are all native-only or port-troublesome apps.
Really all these things can be done in windows. Granted, you probably like the 'look and feel' of your particular CD burning software, or music player, or image editing software- thats understandable. But its nothing special to linux.
Oh, and SSH.
I use PuttyTel for telenet and what not (as bilbous mentioned).
Linux: symbolic and hard linking, BASH (command line)
Windows Powershell is being released soonish (betas out now) which is a far more advanced command line program then the out of date command prompt.
flexible filesystems, user permissions.
I only have one user on my computer, so I dont use user permissions. What do you mean by 'flexible'?
The command line is natively supported, and I can make calls to GUI apps from it for automation, or proper batch processing.
See windows powershell- pretty sure its going to be integrated now if you want it to be. Not positive, i've only played around with it a bit.
I do not want to learn another command line, especially when the developers have pretty much isolated it.
Its being un-isolated now, and well 90% of windows users dont want to learn another O/S, but thats not a technical comment :)
...and personally I LOVE the KDE developer's philosophy of UI design.
Look and feel... you can skin windows however you want, really, its personal if you like KDE's UI.
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Then there's the other configuring of things like the panels, (I have one on top, one of bottom, and another one which pop out from the side,); I also have four virtual desktops, and I miss them dearly in Windows
Windows XP Powertools, which is an addon pack (free) released by Microsoft, features virtual desktops (up to 4). Not sure about panels.
Linux panels are far more customizable. Windows panel also suffers wierd bugs when you move it to different screen locations (such as making it a top bar) uinless you restart your computer. Otherwise certain 3d rendered things interpret your mouseclick in the wrong location (off by about the height of your startmenu). I tend to use between 6 and 8 desktops at once. I have one for web browsing, one for blender, one for gimp, etc. Why not have some of them running in the same desktop? Partially because it keeps the taskbar uncluttered, also some of the caching makes it faster to use the virtual desktops as the contents of the others are eventually cached to disk for retrieval instead of all staying in ram like is the case with windows. The two are not comparable.
and finally the numerous other little tweakable things which are as I want them. For applications: Amarok (a music player)
Plenty of music players avaliable for windows.
True but I've never found a single media player on windows that rivals amarok. I have winamp pro 5, Windows Media Player, RealPlayer (god forbid), and many others, but no dice. Songbird is a cross platform media player that is looking promising however.
KNotes (post-its)
The new windows vista has a post-it notes gadget avaliable for the sidebar that does this.
I've been using post-its in linux since 2002, and I'm sure they were available long before that. I'm actually surprised windows is just getting them now.
x64 GIMP
I think you can edit images in windows.
There are some advantages of a native 64bit version of an image manipulation suite. Also proprietary equivalents on windows are prohibitively expensive. There are freeware apps but none come close to krita, gimp or photoshop.
K3B (CD&DVD burning)
Plenty of software to do this.. windows vista has CD&DVD burning native.
Name one completely free stable full featured suite of burning tools for windows. The native support is there in linux as well, but ;a good suite is hard to beat. Same goes for windows. Native is nice but a good tool that will do DVD titles, etc is invaluable. Can't compare windows native burning to K3B.
Konqueror (Filemanager/Browser)
IE7&windows explorer is finally reasonable in this area... I wouldnt have said that previously with IE6.
True the newer one is much better. But you have to realize you wouldn't have had it if it hadn't been for free software like firefox. It would have remained the same clunky ie6 like interface if they hadn't started to lose marketshare.
vobcopy (I rip DVD's to the HDD to watch later)
Can do as well with programs on windows.
Not natively. Linux lets me right click on the dvd icon on the desktop and just hit copy. I select dvdiso and bam. Its there for things like VLC media player to play. Windows does have dvddecrypter and dvdshrink which are nice as well. There isn't much difference in windows and linux in this department except that its easier in linux due to the native support.
Oh, and SSH.
I use PuttyTel for telenet and what not (as bilbous mentioned).
Putty is an open source client with its codebase originating in Linux. Once again you wouldn't have such an excellent free program without opensource software.
The command line is natively supported, and I can make calls to GUI apps from it for automation, or proper batch processing.
See windows powershell- pretty sure its going to be integrated now if you want it to be. Not positive, i've only played around with it a bit.
using proper shell scripting I can actually create real programs not just shell scripts. Also I could create a good enough script that could run on OSX, BSD, Solaris, Linux, and other *nix OS's. A windows powershell doesn't have that ability and it still can't make calls to gui apps because most gui apps in windows aren't designed with support for that. Linux programs tend to implement all core functionality and add a gui frontend instead of making the GUI unavoidable. This means that headless operation of a windows box is very difficult and essentially useless. Requiring a person to use the physical machine in cases like servers is not good for security.
I do not want to learn another command line, especially when the developers have pretty much isolated it.
Its being un-isolated now, and well 90% of windows users dont want to learn another O/S, but thats not a technical comment Smiley
The Shell linux uses is a long standing standard. Evenso, I think many windows users would be happy to jump ship if they knew all their apps would still run. They can't live without some of their apps - that link is what binds people to windows more I think, not necessarily its awesomeness.
...and personally I LOVE the KDE developer's philosophy of UI design.
Look and feel... you can skin windows however you want, really, its personal if you like KDE's UI.
Not comparable again. To use new themes in windows I had to get a patch to uxtheme.dll or install the horrific windowblinds software. Windows doesn't ALLOW you to skin it natively. You have to use an unofficial patch. Still though once you do, linux theming options outweigh windows by a lot. Windows can be nicely themed, but its about as flexible as a steel bar in comparison to most linux desktop environments. I personally prefer Gnome to KDE because its so mindbogglingly simple yet pretty. KDE is more windows like except more intuitive imho.
I just wrote a half hour response, before accidently clicking the stupid, useless, 'back' button on my mouse which told my browser to go back and delete what I wrote... Cursing I'm taking that as divine intervention to leave this thread alone.
Man I hate it when that happens. Totally unnerves me!
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Induane addressed most of the points pretty well. (Windows skinning is not pretty, btw.)
I do have a number of application equivalents on Windows for when I dual boot.
Media-Playback: MediaMonkey (best shareware app ever!), and VLC. (MM is close, but not as good as amarok.)
Internet: Firefox, as per usual.
CD/DVD: CDBurner XP Pro (Freeware, closed source. It's good stuff, though.)
Office: OO.org2 (Same as linux. Sometimes I use KOffice apps, though.)
Notepad: Notepad2 (Open-source, but not as good as the Kde Advanced Text Editor.)
E-mail: (Gmail account, web-mail function on my 1and1 domain.)
Image: GIMP (32bit.)
Due to the nature of linux distributions, aptitude dist-upgrade does the upgrade path for these app's linux counterparts.
As for Vista: the requirements and costs are beastly for just post-it notes. :) I'll wait for KDE4's native Win* support overtop XP. All the eye-candy, none of this silly $X00 pro-price.
Also, there are no x64 drivers for my soundcard, which is supported in my linux distribution. (Ironically.)
I do actually notice a susbtantial performance increase when multitasking in linux as compared to Win*.
Breakage of things can sometimes be confusing, just like in Windows. (Likewise, fixage of things depends on your skill level, just like in Windows. There are more areas that can be fixed higher up in the skill level, unlike Windows.)
This next question is not really an attack, just my curiousity:
Will Powershell enable me to fall back to the command line, without running inside a graphical envinronment?