Is Spysweeper Retarded?

[zanzibar]

Is your use of vaguely inflammatory rhetoric an attempt at satire?

You know as well as I do that there's a difference between saying something someone might not like and saying something which is a useless and petty personal attack.  Granted, both statements can be used to try to provoke a flame war, but it's harder to give someone the benefit of the doubt in the second case.

[Induane]

I know, it just struck me as slightly amusing.  I couldn't resist the urge to poke a bit of fun 

[Monketh]

Holy Frak, this thread got out of hand.  A whole page of arguing in less than 2400.

ramlambmoo:

The problem inherent in Windows is exactly that it is catered to a group of users who refuse/can't take the effort to learn "computers."

Touche, the problem with linux is that is is catered to a group of users who have a very high level of expertise in computing.  In it's current incarnation its simple not suitable for the general user base without it having been configured by someone else.  Which I think is definatly a shame, given it's potential.

I used to keep a copy of a german usage (this one: http://www.linux-usability.de/download/linux_usability_report_en.pdf, specifically,) which placed them rather close to each other in terms of usability.  Induane's already addressed the new users bit, but I prefer that it expects the user to know what it is they're doing.  I really don't like being treated otherwise.

What features of KDE cant you give up?  Not to be dismissive, I'm just interested to see what 'killer app' it has, so to speak.  I'd be suprised if it couldnt be done in windows, but of course I dont yet know what these features are.

Well, basically:  I've changed my key bindings to ring up a number of applications on command (using the 'win' key to assign to applications is marvelous, everyone should do it.); then there's the other configuring of things like the panels, (I have one on top, one of bottom, and another one which pop out from the side,); I also have four virtual desktops, and I miss them dearly in Windows; and finally the numerous other little tweakable things which are as I want them.  For applications: Amarok (a music player), KNotes (post-its), Evolution (groupware client), Kdissert (a mind mapping tool), x64 GIMP, K3B (CD&DVD burning), Konqueror (Filemanager/Browser), vobcopy (I rip DVD's to the HDD to watch later), and a number of the little helper applications that accompany the DE's.  Those are all native-only or port-troublesome apps.  Oh, and SSH.
Linux: symbolic and hard linking, BASH (command line), flexible filesystems, user permissions.  The command line is natively supported, and I can make calls to GUI apps from it for automation, or proper batch processing.  I do not want to learn another command line, especially when the developers have pretty much isolated it. 
...and personally I LOVE the KDE developer's philosophy of UI design.

Personally I dont think I could ever give up windows as my main O/S because of the amount of windows related programming and gaming I do.  For performance issues I cant really virtualize, and since I program while doing other basic things (like surfing the net, chatting to people, etc) the platform I use for programming dictates what platform I use for everything.

As for programming platform being your total platform; I understand.  Such makes sense.
I actually dual-boot because I still like video games, and some other software not available for linux (proper techno-creation software is something that's a work in progress right now.)


Gharan:

So is Linux better than Windows or does it depend what you use your PC for ive often thought about changing to Linux would it be better for my music programs such as Cubase or would that aspect be the same?

Speaking of which, linux is not windows: http://linux.oneandoneis2.org/LNW1.htm, and I doubt Cubase would work.

[ramlambmoo]

I just wrote a half hour response, before accidently clicking the stupid, useless, 'back' button on my mouse which told my browser to go back and delete what I wrote...  I'm taking that as divine intervention to leave this thread alone.   

Unless I decide to re write it, which is a possibility.

[bilbous]

Oh, and SSH.

PuTTY http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~sgtatham/putty/ is a pretty good ssh client for windows. It has its own user interface (pops up in a window) and supports telnet and SSH 1&2.

[ramlambmoo]

I used to keep a copy of a german usage (this one: http://www.linux-usability.de/download/linux_usability_report_en.pdf, specifically,) which placed them rather close to each other in terms of usability.  Induane's already addressed the new users bit, but I prefer that it expects the user to know what it is they're doing.  I really don't like being treated otherwise.

I had a big look at that, but my response got chewed by this stupid mouse.  Have to wait for a re-write, sorry.

Well, basically:  I've changed my key bindings to ring up a number of applications on command (using the 'win' key to assign to applications is marvelous, everyone should do it.)
I use autohotkey, which provides the same functions.

Then there's the other configuring of things like the panels, (I have one on top, one of bottom, and another one which pop out from the side,); I also have four virtual desktops, and I miss them dearly in Windows
Windows XP Powertools, which is an addon pack (free) released by Microsoft, features virtual desktops (up to 4).  Not sure about panels.

and finally the numerous other little tweakable things which are as I want them.  For applications: Amarok (a music player)
Plenty of music players avaliable for windows.

KNotes (post-its)
The new windows vista has a post-it notes gadget avaliable for the sidebar that does this.

Evolution (groupware client), Kdissert (a mind mapping tool)
Not sure what these are, I dont use them.

x64 GIMP
I think you can edit images in windows.

K3B (CD&DVD burning)
Plenty of software to do this.. windows vista has CD&DVD burning native.

Konqueror (Filemanager/Browser)
IE7&windows explorer is finally reasonable in this area... I wouldnt have said that previously with IE6.

vobcopy (I rip DVD's to the HDD to watch later)
Can do as well with programs on windows.

and a number of the little helper applications that accompany the DE's.  Those are all native-only or port-troublesome apps.
Really all these things can be done in windows.  Granted, you probably like the 'look and feel' of your particular CD burning software, or music player, or image editing software- thats understandable.  But its nothing special to linux. 

Oh, and SSH.
I use PuttyTel for telenet and what not (as bilbous mentioned).

Linux: symbolic and hard linking, BASH (command line)
Windows Powershell is being released soonish (betas out now) which is a far more advanced command line program then the out of date command prompt.

flexible filesystems, user permissions.
I only have one user on my computer, so I dont use user permissions.  What do you mean by 'flexible'?

The command line is natively supported, and I can make calls to GUI apps from it for automation, or proper batch processing.
See windows powershell- pretty sure its going to be integrated now if you want it to be.  Not positive, i've only played around with it a bit.

I do not want to learn another command line, especially when the developers have pretty much isolated it.
Its being un-isolated now, and well 90% of windows users dont want to learn another O/S, but thats not a technical comment

...and personally I LOVE the KDE developer's philosophy of UI design.
Look and feel... you can skin windows however you want, really, its personal if you like KDE's UI.

[Induane]

Then there's the other configuring of things like the panels, (I have one on top, one of bottom, and another one which pop out from the side,); I also have four virtual desktops, and I miss them dearly in Windows
Windows XP Powertools, which is an addon pack (free) released by Microsoft, features virtual desktops (up to 4).  Not sure about panels.

Linux panels are far more customizable. Windows panel also suffers wierd bugs when you move it to different screen locations (such as making it a top bar) uinless you restart your computer.  Otherwise certain 3d rendered things interpret your mouseclick in the wrong location (off by about the height of your startmenu).  I tend to use between 6 and 8 desktops at once.  I have one for web browsing, one for blender, one for gimp, etc. Why not have some of them running in the same desktop? Partially because it keeps the taskbar uncluttered, also some of the caching makes it faster to use the virtual desktops as the contents of the others are eventually cached to disk for retrieval instead of all staying in ram like is the case with windows.  The two are not comparable. 

and finally the numerous other little tweakable things which are as I want them.  For applications: Amarok (a music player)
Plenty of music players avaliable for windows.

True but I've never found a single media player on windows that rivals amarok. I have winamp pro 5, Windows Media Player, RealPlayer (god forbid), and many others, but no dice.  Songbird is a cross platform media player that is looking promising however.

KNotes (post-its)
The new windows vista has a post-it notes gadget avaliable for the sidebar that does this.

I've been using post-its in linux since 2002, and I'm sure they were available long before that.  I'm actually surprised windows is just getting them now. 

x64 GIMP
I think you can edit images in windows.

There are some advantages of a native  64bit version of an image manipulation suite.  Also proprietary equivalents on windows are prohibitively expensive.  There are freeware apps but none come close to krita, gimp or photoshop.

K3B (CD&DVD burning)
Plenty of software to do this.. windows vista has CD&DVD burning native.

Name one completely free stable full featured suite of burning tools for windows.  The native support is there in linux as well, but ;a good suite is hard to beat.  Same goes for windows. Native is nice but a good tool that will do DVD titles, etc is invaluable. Can't compare windows native burning to K3B.

Konqueror (Filemanager/Browser)
IE7&windows explorer is finally reasonable in this area... I wouldnt have said that previously with IE6.

True the newer one is much better.  But you have to realize you wouldn't have had it if it hadn't been for free software like firefox. It would have remained the same clunky ie6 like interface if they hadn't started to lose marketshare.

vobcopy (I rip DVD's to the HDD to watch later)
Can do as well with programs on windows.

Not natively.  Linux lets me right click on the dvd icon on the desktop and just hit copy.  I select dvdiso and bam. Its there for things like VLC media player to play.  Windows does have dvddecrypter and dvdshrink which are nice as well. There isn't much difference in windows and linux in this department except that its easier in linux due to the native support.

Oh, and SSH.
I use PuttyTel for telenet and what not (as bilbous mentioned).

Putty is an open source client with its codebase originating in Linux.   Once again you wouldn't have such an excellent free program without opensource software.

The command line is natively supported, and I can make calls to GUI apps from it for automation, or proper batch processing.
See windows powershell- pretty sure its going to be integrated now if you want it to be.  Not positive, i've only played around with it a bit.

using proper shell scripting  I can actually create real programs not just shell scripts.  Also I could create a good enough script that could run on OSX, BSD, Solaris, Linux, and other *nix OS's.  A windows powershell doesn't have that ability and it still can't make calls to gui apps because most gui apps in windows aren't designed with support for that.  Linux programs tend to implement all core functionality and add a gui frontend instead of making the GUI unavoidable.  This means that headless operation of a windows box is very difficult and essentially useless.  Requiring a person to use the physical machine in cases like servers is not good for security.

I do not want to learn another command line, especially when the developers have pretty much isolated it.
Its being un-isolated now, and well 90% of windows users dont want to learn another O/S, but thats not a technical comment Smiley

The Shell linux uses is a long standing standard.  Evenso, I think many windows users would be happy to jump ship if they knew all their apps would still run.  They can't live without some of their apps - that link is what binds people to windows more I think, not necessarily its awesomeness.

...and personally I LOVE the KDE developer's philosophy of UI design.
Look and feel... you can skin windows however you want, really, its personal if you like KDE's UI.

Not comparable again.  To use new themes in windows I had to get a patch to uxtheme.dll or install the horrific windowblinds software.  Windows doesn't ALLOW you to skin it natively.  You have to use an unofficial patch.  Still though once you do, linux theming options outweigh windows by a lot.  Windows can be nicely themed, but its about as flexible as a steel bar in comparison to most linux desktop environments.  I personally prefer Gnome to KDE because its so mindbogglingly simple yet pretty. KDE is more windows like except more intuitive imho. 

I just wrote a half hour response, before accidently clicking the stupid, useless, 'back' button on my mouse which told my browser to go back and delete what I wrote...  Cursing I'm taking that as divine intervention to leave this thread alone.

Man I hate it when that happens.  Totally unnerves me!

[Monketh]

Induane addressed most of the points pretty well.  (Windows skinning is not pretty, btw.)
I do have a number of application equivalents on Windows for when I dual boot.

Media-Playback: MediaMonkey (best shareware app ever!), and VLC.  (MM is close, but not as good as amarok.)
Internet: Firefox, as per usual.
CD/DVD: CDBurner XP Pro (Freeware, closed source.  It's good stuff, though.)
Office: OO.org2 (Same as linux.  Sometimes I use KOffice apps, though.)
Notepad: Notepad2 (Open-source, but not as good as the Kde Advanced Text Editor.)
E-mail: (Gmail account, web-mail function on my 1and1 domain.)
Image: GIMP (32bit.)
Due to the nature of linux distributions,

Code: [Select]

aptitude dist-upgrade does the upgrade path for these app's linux counterparts.

As for Vista: the requirements and costs are beastly for just post-it notes.    I'll wait for KDE4's native Win* support overtop XP.  All the eye-candy, none of this silly $X00 pro-price.
Also, there are no x64 drivers for my soundcard, which is supported in my linux distribution.  (Ironically.)
I do actually notice a susbtantial performance increase when multitasking in linux as compared to Win*.
Breakage of things can sometimes be confusing, just like in Windows.  (Likewise, fixage of things depends on your skill level, just like in Windows.  There are more areas that can be fixed higher up in the skill level, unlike Windows.)

This next question is not really an attack, just my curiousity:
Will Powershell enable me to fall back to the command line, without running inside a graphical envinronment?