PlaneShift
Gameplay => General Discussion => Topic started by: Edicho on October 28, 2006, 07:07:49 pm
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I'm not really sure about these things on Auction channel so it's always better to ask: (i wish some GM's/DEV's post their opinions too :) )
Should we allow buy requests if someone is not running regular business (in examlpe Alliva is ok as he always buy weapons and other stuff)
Should we allow "offers on /tell" when someone is selling weapon? (i thought auctions are public don't they?)
Thank you in advance....
Edi
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Auctions don't have to be from established merchants - anyone can run one. As for the offers in /tell, it's an OOC function that I would rather see people avoid. Auctions are indeed meant to be public. I'd be hesitant to say that it "isn't allowed" - only that /tell is meant for OOC purposes and does not mix well with roleplay.
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The only things tells are used for in roleplay would be either someone trying to act like they're magic and speak through your thoughts, or they're whispering to you.
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An auction is an auction.. I liked the way Bodacher and I did them with the P.U.B.S. (Proglin Unsir & Bodacher Seldakam) Auction House. We announced them on forhand, and sold of wares using an auction like it should be. A guy presenting the items, and all people offering in auction, trying to get their hands on the most liked item.
If you want to RP an auction, I'd definitally leave /tell out of it.
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When multiples auctions are held at the same place or at in a limited area, offers and bids to one or the other can easely be mixed. For such places you can make a call in /auction to define the object you have to offer, and the initial price and where you are. Then bids can be made by interrested people coming closer to you and bidding in /say.
This is not a matter of GM opinion, but a civilised way to share space.
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The best aucton I ever attended was Proglin and Bods P.U.B.S. I liked the way they did it. It was very realisitic.
Anyway, some people feel more comfortable being a silent bidder. So they may send you a /tell bidding on the item you put up in the auction box. Or they just may not be close enough for you to hear them in any of the other chat boxes. A friend may have told them about the item and so they send a /tell bidding on the item. I don't think auctions are just "public" not unless you want them to be.
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Anyway, some people feel more comfortable being a silent bidder. So they may send you a /tell bidding on the item you put up in the auction box. Or they just may not be close enough for you to hear them in any of the other chat boxes. A friend may have told them about the item and so they send a /tell bidding on the item. I don't think auctions are just "public" not unless you want them to be.
It doesnt matter, its ooc. That just for a matter of fact, nothing more.
When there are many people selling and buying things in one area, a good idea is to write the name of the person directly interested with what you auction/say/shout. Its working well as the interested people can easly ignore the rest of messages.
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How does the auction channel work IC? Is it a board? Someone shouting like in a market? Or is it really a 100% OOC channel? When people say "silverweave ss /10 s2.0 /tell offers" it's hard to let it pass as IC at all. And even if you use it IC and avoid OOC info someone will go []less and ask "what's the /?" or "weapon specs please"...
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You could call it special market language. sellers use shortcuts, because others use them too. Its normal on a market. It is important to sell your offer in a short way. In effect, not every stranger undestand this a bit different language, but they learn fast.
The question is what about the slash and speed informations. It is hard to us to know it from looking at the sword, but the problem as they are present, even if not for your char. It is imposible to avoid it when buying a weapon. Would you buy it not asking for the slash? As long as these stats are present, it will be asked or told at least once for the buyer, so he know its value.
We have two options as everything whats in-game is suposed to be IC
a) eliminate the stats values from weapons
b) accept knowing them as IC, no matter how amaizingly suprising it is that everybody know the exact numbers.
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so:
as long as group auction will be made we can allow /tell, but not /tell me offers? (to be sure auction is public somehow and we know someone don't forces us to pay more)
and noone told yet how we should treat seeking items on auctions. (as far as i remember auction is for sales :) ) so how?
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As it is right now, it's like shouting offer and bids. As long as it's done this way, not using /auction for private conversations, it is fine and reflects the life of a public market.
Of course you can come close to the seller and whisper your offer, or decide to make it public.
Using the name of the seller in your bid can work, but it means that you shout it accross the market place.
Yliakum being a rather civilized place, everyone should be rather aware that shoutings are noisy. That's why when possible they would prefer going next to the shop to see who is around, who is bidding in a normal voice (/say) or may be whispering.
And to know the stats of an item, you have to look at it to evaluate its quality.
It seems that everyone is able do make precise evaluations independently of his knowlegde. But well, it's the way it is. But one should not believe the seller, and come to see merchandise by himself.
If this is discussed, it is that /auctions are too often turning to noise and confusion, with OOC informations mixed to ingame life.
Let's say we have two merchants selling fish. Each one selling to the best offer. since there are no separate shops, they can stand far anough from each other so what is said next to one [/say range=10meters] is not heard by the other.
Each one can "/auction "fresh fish" starting at X Tria", as a sword seller can give the name and average quality. /auction is heard by passing-by people, the interrested ones can come closer, have a look at the fish, evaluate how fresh it is then bid Y Tria. From time to time, the merchant might "/auction "really fresh fish" almost gone for Y Tria" to attract other customers.
what's IC and OOC in this?
the /auction can be kept IC by not giving stats but his personal evaluation of the item compared to the ones sold by a regular merchant like Harnquist for weapons. Fine, good, excellent, legendary...
They can use abreviations and acronysm if they are sure their customers are going to understant them.
-side note: BS can be interpreted a few other ways than Broad Sword, one using B for Bull ...-
To look at the merchandise, you have to rely on the seller. An OOC solution is for the seller to use his description. After all, there are no implemented shops, so the seller is the stall. When not selling, moving around...he should not have an opened stall.
Before stalls are implemented, you could try this system to see if it works, and suggest solutions to possible problems you discover in it. Hydlaa's plaza and Ojaveda's Akkaio dsar are market places, use them and share them.
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I think what might be helpful would be for someone to design a system of ordinal values that could be adopted to replace raw slash values. a ruined short sword with a slash value of .1 could be said to be as sharp as a butterknife. One thought of the top of my head is that we could adopt the mohs scale of diamond hardness and adapt it to our purpose. This scale traditionally ranges from 1 to 10 which fits our needs. therefore a blade with a 10 slash could be described as suitable for engraving diamonds while anything less than 2 couldn't scratch talc. In this way we could eliminate the need for OOC slash values while still having a means of discussing comparative quality.
This is just a suggestion another means might be better suited to our purpose but the real difficulty will be getting players to actually use the system.
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For stats being asked for or told, I think it is a very easy thing to do IC. You can say something like " I have a beutifull SilverWeave Short Sword, It is 10 times more powerfull than a regular Short Sword. It is balanced perfectly so its motions are as fast as a regular Short Sword."
You can play with the wording to compare other specialty swords to the base or standard swords, ' feels twice as light as a Long sword', 'This sword has been crafted with such precission it wields like a dagger'. For everyone who has played for a short time, it wouldnt take much to figure out the speed when compared to other standard weapons.(IMHO)
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This is just a suggestion another means might be better suited to our purpose but the real difficulty will be getting players to actually use the system.
Players are the society, general usage defines the customs, mores and everyday life. GMs are not here to ineterfere with that unless it's really disruptive, like abuse of OOC, flood and spam.
The best way for you to create a custom in game is to use it and encourage others to use its benefits. You won't be able to "force" others to agree with it. shoutings, OOC, auctions, duels, mobs sharings, ... are under a set of rules, the rest is customs, manners, lifestyles...
If you think you have a good "system", promote it. If it's generaly agreed that it's fine, it will become part of the Yliakum's civilisation.
@LARAGORN: It would be the perfect way. Maybe is it unrealistic to hope that people are going to be perfect :) and we would have weapons 2.732 times the base stat very soon :) . The more your options are IC the more people are going to follow you.
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I still think the auction channel is OOC by default. It's just that I can't find an explanation of how the messages go from char to char without being OOC. You read an offer because you're in the /auction range, yet you're in the arena, hunting or training and with no merchants nearby yet you're interested in the item and you bid with /tell or in the /auction channel too. Is it yelling? Is there someone shouting their lungs out offering a sword or glyph and bidders do the same if interested?
What if you're in the middle of RP and you hear an offer and you bid but you don't leave your RP. "She's having a baby! Push!", "what's the /?", "Push!", "I'm at the tavern", "wheee-wheeee whoooo", "ok. 10k's fair...", "One more push!"... Bad RP? Well, maybe... but i think the channel itself is disruptive. Would be better to just have people shout, if that is how it is meant to work.
Another example, when Proglin and Bodacher held one of their auctions people used the channel to bid and they were told not to and some players were muted for "flooding". Well, if the channel is meant to be IC not using it to bid would be a contradiction, right? especially during an event where the whole thing is being done in character (and very well thought out).
So, if the channel is not OOC but can't be used IC either... why have it in the first place?
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in the first place it was in the main chat=your ears
it is yelling. and has a defined range to be heard. Like /shout
Why it was moved? misuse of it.
Why not using /shout? to make trades easier by marking them in a different color.
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It doesnt matter, its ooc. That just for a matter of fact, nothing more.
I failed to see where I posted it was IC or OOC in this thread. I have to agree with Zhai's post on this one.
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Hadfael you're great \\o// i like the idea with BS
"selling Bull----It of Peace" ^^
But we're not here for this...let's back to the topic.
I like the idea to compare quality of items by saying it's 10 times better than regular ones (actually silverweave ss is 5 times better than regular). That won't make many question with stats. that will make many things clear. I also like the idea to look at the item and not ask for details (should be a rule if you ask me ^^) [otherwise use /tell]. Auction should be used as auction so selling from one tria. People use it only to know everybody of their wants/spares because auction is wider than any other chat. (next rule: if you're not going to sale something from one tria: use shout/say/tell ) OR please rename Auction tab for Sales/Wants. I think it ridiculous people are auctioning their wants and phrases ^^ can i auction the thing called "buying siolverweave!" of course not, there is nothing like this and people will not put their offers lower and lower just to sale him their silverweave... Please think about it
That's how i see it. I will be greatly appreciated if GM/DEV team will make it clear how to use Auction tab (point by point) in rules section. After making it clear i'm sure we can make the window totally IC or OOC,but if Planeshift is rpg Auction should be IC only tells OOC... Public channels IC --- not public OOC
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I will focus on the "/" and "s." shortcuts.
No matter what rules you set, you can't make them work, ecause they will work only when everybody will agree with them. They won't agree because they will use / and s no matter what. So you are doomed on failure.
So i repeat myself:
We have two options as everything whats in-game is suposed to be IC
a) eliminate the stats values from weapons (no stats so no / and s ever again in any channel. Problem solved)
b) accept knowing them as IC, no matter how amaizingly suprising it is that everybody know the exact numbers.
Yeah, we really can sell and buy things the same as you do in real^^ Someone sells a sword, you look at it, its steel, sharp and balanced, it must be good.
when its quality is high, its sharp, balanced when you check it and what metal it is by looking at it.
Really, there are no silverwave swords of defender. What the freak is that anyway? The only conclussion i get is: magical swords are common thing in ps and everybody have them. As players want to know which of the 10 magical swords they can choose from is the best, they want he slash value to be known to them instantly. So, bang, we have a slash value, and so we have it commonly used by the character, so furher, it must be IC! Yay!
Magical swords are mistake, they are common, but with what cost?
It's really that simple. You can know whats IC and what isn't, but even if you do, you can't have IC world as long as in the world there are people who doesnt know the difference xD The more ooc the Devs put to the IC world, the more OOC it will be There is no walkaround to it.
Why did i said all this this and not the other way? Because i didn't say anything new at all, you find the same thing by searching this forum. So writing in my style, i'm hoping that maybe at least 2/3 of this will be taken under consideration, so that people stop complaining how they can't RP because they are disrupted. A good time to look at what we have. It isn't coming from nowhere, its not the community or lack of some rules enforced by GMs, its the game which has to change.
What if you're in the middle of RP and you hear an offer and you bid but you don't leave your RP. "She's having a baby! Push!", "what's the /?", "Push!", "I'm at the tavern", "wheee-wheeee whoooo", "ok. 10k's fair...", "One more push!"... Bad RP? Well, maybe... but i think the channel itself is disruptive. Would be better to just have people shout, if that is how it is meant to work.
You are in the middle of RP in the moment you enter PS. It is not occasional. When someone is having a baby in a building near the market place, its normal that you hear what is outside the window. If someone is stupid enough to shout that he want to buy the damn thing, then character of that person is plain stupid. Furher, that person is plain stupid, when he does it and then claim it was outside rp and ooc even though that persons char did it.
I think such behaviour may be just avoided when you understand where the voice can reach and where it can't. But if the voice really reach you and you decide to do some idiotic thing and answer due to suprise of everybody around, you are just being idiot and in IC way.
So i don't now why you tell about all this like it was oocly wrong.
Akaye, you should have quoted the rest of my comment.
I wrote that its just for a matter of fact. The sense of it is that people /telling themselves some offers can't be accepted really right, especially when they do it at the final step, buing the item.
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Actually, the whole /tell system is OOC. Remove it, the auction channel and the guild channel and we would be closer it being all IC. Problem is, weren't these functions added because that is how people were using thing?
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Stating /tell *is* OOC doesn't mean you can't use it IC to whisper, hand a note, ...
Same goes for every implemented function. The function is not OOC by design, it is used OOC.
If the subject is a request to change functions, this is the wrong section and you should better use the wishlist.
Now if the point is to find a commonly agreed use of them, an evolution of the IG social rules, this is the right thread.
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sorry but this gone too far...
i asked two simple questions... the answer would be yes/no so WTF you are trying to tell me about ooc ic. (sorry for being straight).
1. "i'm looking for blablabla" on auction channel ---- yes or no?
2. "/tell me offers, /tell me your prices" on the auction channel ---yes or no?
is is so hard to choose between two answers and type one? i assume everyone that know about the forum know about ooc and ic so don't post this for 1000th time ok?
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Edicho, sometimes yes-no answers are not complete, and to understand someone's answer fully requires reading a further explanation. Moreover, sometimes there are no clear yes-no answers, but rather a gray area that "depends."
I think that the answers posted here have already taken care of your first questions. Yes, anyone can use the /auction channel. They don't have to "own a business." It's the /tells that you will not see a clear answer on, because /tells are an OOC function and there are no rules against using them for auctions, but it's not realistic. So I would want people to avoid using /tells when in an auction, and other people have posted suggestions for how to handle auctions in general.
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In my opinion, No and No.
http://hydlaa.com/smf/index.php?topic=24966.msg276158#msg276158
That is how it should be done. Auction is ridiculously stupid in this game. Just rename it /spam and get it over with.
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How about no, Moon?
I don't see the problem with any "random" person auctioning something off. Yes, it should be more organized - but you should never have to be part of some business to run an auction.
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Sorry, but yes you should.
Everything for everyone is a terrible way to do the system. It is unrealistic to the extreme, and more than prone to spam. You have to train to do every other aspect of the game, so why would auctioning be any different. Auctioning IS a skill that MUST be learned. In real life and in a virtual world.
God, everyone here is always so down on how bad Runescape and WoW are ooc and not RPGs, then you shove in a system that is WORSE than what they have.
*typos
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Karyuu,
I understand there are many things that excludes some situations, however if we want to make this game as RP as possible we should make rules that people will have to keep on otherwise they will get many /tells it's forbidden or "you can't do that, instead use XXX method". You now know how i see it? if you want to make this game RP you can't let them OOC as often as possible.
thank you for pointing out that tells are OOC and OOC should not be used in RP part of the game.
i don't want everyone to run a business however if there are merchants in-game then:
- they have daggers swords etc for sale
- player know merchants and ask merchants for items
- merchants are known and always buy items for players and they can shout/(even at auction) "i'm buying items blahblahblah"
- players don't need to sell via "/tell me offers" because they know merchants who will buy them for sure,
and players don't need to post "i'm looking for a silverweave" because one of merchants will have it, they buy them from players.
- just group with some merchants to get the highest price for your item/ or lowest price for item you want to buy
- auction the item if you wish to make an auction, not get highest amounts of tria as possible.
see what i mean? better interaction with others as well as removing as much OOC as possible.
whoever who points this topic to OOC an IC should stay calm, this post is for explaining the meaning/using/rules of Auction tab
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Moon: I don't have to remind you that this is just the beginning of a system that will be further expanded upon, right? I think we all have understood this, so there is no reason for you to act as though this is the end and now we are all doomed to "endure."
I don't believe that auctioning should be a skill. I would love an auction house and perhaps you'd have to have an NPC auction your items off for you (meaning actually do it in an auction house, not a window) but I do not want this to be something you'd have to spend time training. You haven't provided any argument as to why you believe a skill should be necessary, beyond "everything else is trained."
Moreover, we're not talking about the future of auctions. The questions were about today, about the now. And right now to ask "should we allow" people who are not running a full business to have an auction is rather silly.
Edicho: There are definite benefits to known player merchants who run auctions, but it's not OOC for "lone characters" to run auctions as well.
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Karyuu:
I think you misunderstood. "lone characters" can start their auctions of course. I just don't want them to post "i will BUY XXX" or "i'm looking for XXX" - let's leave that to merchants only
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so no new merchants can start up to provide competition to the old ones?
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just think...
of course weapon merchant will seek only for silverweave short sword, right? are you ok? merchant does not buy only certain weapon ....
he buys all otherwise he's not a merchant
merchant would say: buying weapons 5.4 or greater --- for example.
man... think please
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There are plenty of types of people that only deal with one specific type of item in thier business, and they are still considered merchants.
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really? but i see a paradox...
begginer merchant will of course have at least 500 000 tria to afford more than one silverweave short sword he is looking for at a time...
ok if he does i will check him for buying two or more silverweaves, i know some buys and offers only one but this can be easily cheked out, if someone is looking for kind of weapons it's ok but if he looks for 1x weapon that shoudln't be called a merchant
i think that's offtopic anyway
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"lone characters" can start their auctions of course. I just don't want them to post "i will BUY XXX" or "i'm looking for XXX" - let's leave that to merchants only
Given the fact that every person trading at the marketplace is a merchant in smaller bigger way, you have no right to forbid them doing something.
Who are you to tell people what they can and what they cant?
When i'm looking for something and i shout it at the marketplace, i do it, because it doesnt lack sense. There are actually people who may be interested with my offer.
You didn't even check if what you wrote is right, yet you act like an expert.
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HEy' you've asked i replied, i'm not an expert
how do you think, why i asked GM/DEV to post their opinion?
it's because i'm not sure that's why. i want to know how should i see it but i don't want to take their time in-game...
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ok if he does i will check him for buying two or more silverweaves, i know some buys and offers only one but this can be easily cheked out, if someone is looking for kind of weapons it's ok but if he looks for 1x weapon that shoudln't be called a merchant
Not all merchants have to be of the same mold. A have a charcter I play that is a merchant, yet sells nothing. That is, not in the typical way you describe how merchants sell things. She is the "for hire" type. People come to her saying they are looking for a certain item, she finds that item, and trades it to the person searching for it, for a profit of course. So in this way, yes, she could be looking for just one silverweave, yet still be a merchant. It depends on what she has been requested to find.
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@ Karyuu How can it be expanded on if you are unwilling to change it? Despite what you 'believe', auctioning is a skill. It is closely entwined with public speaking, charisma, confidence, intelligence, and will to start off with.
And again you are wrong. The -best- time to talk about anything is before the time comes that you actually have to create it. Why talk about rules on the way auction is used now, when it will be 'expanded upon' in the future, and those rules will no longer apply? The answer is, that is how you make things better.
Where in my words did your -ever- read "Change this now, or we are all doomed."? I am not a stupid, 'silly' person who thinks everything can be changed with the wave of a magic coding wand. Everything I write is carefully thought out, researched as to how other players would like it, then asked of Devs if it could be done, then adapted to fit multiple ways to play. That involves ways others enjoy, but I do not.
I give you a real life example of what would happen with the current system. A well known Auctioneer (-not- a merchant, as that is a different job) is set up in his usual space. As he starts to auction his commissions, some fools with a single sword walk up and start trying to hock them to the crowd. Now what do you think would happen? The people there for the real auction would become annoyed. The Auctioneer would become angry, and ask them to leave. If they did not, the well known auctioneer would go to the lawmakers, who are likely his friends, and request a law requiring you to have a license to have an auction space. the lawmakers would not wish to see a good businessman driven off due to interruptions to his business, so they would make such a law. End of story. That is how things work.
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\\o//
nothing more nothing less :thumbup:
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@ Karyuu How can it be expanded on if you are unwilling to change it?
I beg your pardon? Please elucidate.
Despite what you 'believe', auctioning is a skill. It is closely entwined with public speaking, charisma, confidence, intelligence, and will to start off with.
I don't want characters to have to train for everything that they might want to do. I honestly don't understand you sometimes - on one hand you're excitedly against "leveling," and on the other you ask that it be required for what I consider to be a roleplayable skill. If a character may want to run a full auction house then I can understand needing to study for the job - but not for your average everyday auction.
Why talk about rules on the way auction is used now, when it will be 'expanded upon' in the future, and those rules will no longer apply?
Because maybe that's what the original question was about?
"Mini-auctions" happen all the time in marketplaces and bazaars. To limit them to auction houses, and moreover to "official" business is unrealistic.
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Sorry, but yes you should.
Everything for everyone is a terrible way to do the system. It is unrealistic to the extreme, and more than prone to spam. You have to train to do every other aspect of the game, so why would auctioning be any different. Auctioning IS a skill that MUST be learned. In real life and in a virtual world.
God, everyone here is always so down on how bad Runescape and WoW are ooc and not RPGs, then you shove in a system that is WORSE than what they have.
*typos
You don't have to learn how to scream at the top of your lungs that you're selling something...
It shouldn't be called auction necessarily, but maybe "market" since auctioning would be taking bids and going for the highest one. The way it's done here is first offer mostly gets it, or it's sold at a set price and someone just says they'll buy it.
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You want to understand my view.
Start with this.
http://hydlaa.com/smf/index.php?topic=24966.0
Combined with this.
http://hydlaa.com/smf/index.php?topic=24938.0
Then add this.
http://hydlaa.com/smf/index.php?topic=25763.0
And this.
http://hydlaa.com/smf/index.php?topic=26058.msg291733#msg291733
My stance has been mistaken over and over again to be against leveling. Search every last word I have ever said, and you will not find anywhere I have said to remove it, or that it is bad. Nor would I. Some people like to play that way, some do not.
You are mixing and mistaking two seperate concepts in my words. One is playing by stats. The other is the gaining of stats. Those are not the same thing.
As it is, and unless there is a drastic change to the system, /auction = spam. Period.
*edit*
""Mini-auctions" happen all the time in marketplaces and bazaars."
Show me one that does not require either a permit or a fee to set up. You want to have these mini-auctions, then make it something different than the professionals, and ruduce the frelling radius. Selling a personal item is simple, and needs a simple and -limited- command. Auctioning is an entire system in itself.
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@Under the moon
IRL if you are running an auction and someone uncivilised jumps in to sell something, you have to deal with it.
auctioning is not bargaining. There is no specific skill needed. All you need is something to sell or money to buy.
In a more general way about all your late complaints about how PS does not prevent "irrealistic" people to interfere with you dreamed but incredibly leet RP; It's not to the system to determine who's leet and who's not. Especialy for something as simple as opening your mouth to say what you have to sell and how much you would like for it. And it's exactly what's implemented.
Period.
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"say what you have to sell"
Say? Hell no. You have given every player a megaphone to hock their loot. Even WoW has a better system. The auction tab is a player to player system, not a character to character, so it should not sit there spamming the rolepaying window, or endlessly blinking in the corner. Auctioning in this game is a free for all carpshoot. You can't even get away from it in the DR. How stupid is that? Auction is nothing more than a second /shout as it is. And it seems as if you want it to stay that way.
To keep myself from getting into an argument with all of the insulting comments you have been directing my way lately, Hadfael, I'll not be reading anymore of your bias and vision-lacking -opinions-. You want to sit around 24/7 and try to keep the 'n00bs' in check, be my guest. IRC, forum, and in-game, you are on my permanent ignore list. Don't bother responding to this, as I will not read it.
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@Under the moon
Ignore me as you ignore everyone and everything that don't match your dream. To bad you made no decent proposal nor explain why a seller would not try to attract people by speaking louder then the usual conversation.
The topic here is about a way to make options in the real PS world, using what is implemented. It's not WoW, but we already knew that.
@others
try the method posted earlier, it is IC.
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Ok, so, having established that the IC explanation of an /auciton message is similar to someone shouting in the streets to push their business, here are some thoughts:
Does it make sense to have "access" to these shouts no matter where we are? Not IC, in my opinion. If the idea is to resemble a sort of market place it should only be active within such a place. What I suggest is limiting the auction channel to only a few areas in town, like the plaza, for example. You want to buy something? Go to the plaza. You want to sell something? Go to the plaza. Anywhere else you try to use the /auction tab at would be limited and you'd get a "You must be in the plaza to auction!" message. I think it's important to go "analog" on commerce. Having an open auction channel no matter how far from civilization we might be or despite the distance the characters that might end up dealing with each other might be only leads to an OOC "virtual" space for trade. It's like going on eBay! It shouldn't be like that. Being limited to a place gives IC justification for "trade jargon" so things like "slash" or "speed" can be talked about (supposing / refers to the degree given to the item by some bureau of something and speed is just a number reached after some sort of measurement, like the pages per second a printer can spit out).
And what about travelling merchants? They can still do their travelling business, only using the /chat and /shout but this would have to be IC. Messages that combine IC and OOC properly, with [ ] would be OK for this. An example can be "Get your great weapons with <name>! Magic weapons! Rare weapons! And today: An amazing Silverweave Short Sword! [/10, s2] and an Amethyst-Encrusted dagger [+N <stat>].
We can't realistically expect people to stay IC if the channel itself doesn't, now can we?
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We can't realistically expect people to stay IC if the channel itself doesn't, now can we?
We doesn't hear shout no matter where we are, we did i MB, but it is over long time ago^^ So i suppose you basicaly say that you are in a building and you can hear clearly whats outside. I'm sorry, but you hate action channel so much, but you say no single word about other channels. It is exactly the same thing or worse, because in some cases you cant hear what others said at all! like group or guild. So drop this argument.
Limits trading only to some places? The places are already limited, so i don't know why you want to limit them more. Such places change as the world and conditions are changing. Given the fact PS is under heavy development, do you want the devs to split their time also on finding out where exactly these spots should be? Or you want the GMs to punish people for selling an item? Absurd.
Sorry, i fail to see what do you mean with the Ebay (your punctuation/grammar/"my reading skills" problem)
No idea why you want to justify "trade jargon". It just happens, its natural.
One from not many good ideas i read in this topic is to raname action to market. And the nitpicking people at least won't complain when all related to trading dialogs will be inside that tab. People won't complain that it should be only for traders who offer stuff.
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We can't realistically expect people to stay IC if the channel itself doesn't, now can we?
We doesn't hear shout no matter where we are, we did i MB, but it is over long time ago^^ So i suppose you basicaly say that you are in a building and you can hear clearly whats outside. I'm sorry, but you hate action channel so much, but you say no single word about other channels. It is exactly the same thing or worse, because in some cases you cant hear what others said at all! like group or guild. So drop this argument.
Limits trading only to some places? The places are already limited, so i don't know why you want to limit them more. Such places change as the world and conditions are changing. Given the fact PS is under heavy development, do you want the devs to split their time also on finding out where exactly these spots should be? Or you want the GMs to punish people for selling an item? Absurd.
Sorry, i fail to see what do you mean with the Ebay (your punctuation/grammar/"my reading skills" problem)
No idea why you want to justify "trade jargon". It just happens, its natural.
One from not many good ideas i read in this topic is to raname action to market. And the nitpicking people at least won't complain when all related to trading dialogs will be inside that tab. People won't complain that it should be only for traders who offer stuff.
I think you misunderstand. I never said I hated the auction channel. I never said GMs should intervene at all for that matter. And I certainly don't want to boss around the dev. team and push them into dealing with this thing right away. My first question in this thread was "how does auction channel work IC?" to which I got an answer: it would be like a person shouting, only OOCly distinguished by a tab and text color that would facilitate getting these messages. When I said that we can hear it everywhere, I didn't mean that auctions are like global shouts. No. I meant that you can use the auction channel anywhere. And if you're within range, you'll hear it. No matter where these people are: bronze doors, sewers, death realm, anywhere. Should there be a market anywhere? Does it make sense to yell in the middle of nowhere to sell something? A crowded or at least populated area would be a better place to "invest" in advertising.
And well, even then, characters can be in completely different places yet within range when the /auction channel is used. No possible conversation could take place. Yet, players want to trade for their own OOC reasons too. So /tell or /group kick in. And that's the virtual space I referred to (as in a non physical place of interaction, just like this forum). There's no face to face encounter prior to the actual exchange of goods. All the negotiation happens OOC most of the time. So that's a contradiction to the answer to my first question. The auction channel is a shout, yet the whole trade process steps out of character pretty quickly.
By having only a few places where the auction channel would work, I think more IC interaction would be encouraged for trading. You would have to go and meet the trader in person and negotiate right there. Your character needs a weapon? He should go somewhere and buy it. That's staying IC. Why exclude this part from any RP? Characters "go hunting". Well, they should "go shopping" too.
Now, that's a suggestions that is aimed to place the auction channel in a more IC area but if it is meant to be an OOC channel, then leave it as it is and don't try to force any rules on it. The best thing to do with an OOC channel that everyone has access to is to selflimit our entries to the minimum possible to avoid flooding. No point in calling the channel "market" or "trade" or any different from what it is if it still is a non tête-a-tête channel. Call it "virtual store" or "magic catalog" for that matter. It would be more accurate. How can you talk to/hear someone so far from you? Magic! Easiest way out... Meh, I'm done here.
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Zhai, I just couldn't agree with most what you wrote and if you got a feeling that i claimed that you wrote somethink, while you did not, it means i was assuming, because it isn't clear what you meant, or why.
Even though you explained some points from your previous post, i still can't agree with ony of it (what doesn't include ideas in above and not the previous post), my previous statements and arguments persist.
You still call the auction channel OOC, like it was OOC in some unique and special way. I don't know. But you say no word abut communication in overal at all. You know, you can't call the action occ not calling ooc the whole system. If auction is ooc, shout is also ooc, because it is exactly the same thing. Only devs were so nice for us and gave us choice to distinguish traiding from overithing else, by color or that we can even filter it out. Like with any other channel.
Unless you know all this, but don't put all the informations which would state that.
I'm worried in overal that there are so few people, who actually try to roleplay in this game including everything it has to offer. People eighter pick some features from it and roleplay only when these are involved or roleplay with no respect for any features, often cutting off other people who could disrupt them.
Thats my feeling free reading this topic. Maybe people just give this feeling there, while in game do their best.
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@hadfael: I should write more clearly when I am stating something that is meant to be a 'devils advocate' type of point. I think that the current system is good. And I believe that it has evolved into the separate /tell, /auction, /guild, et cetera channels because the users were using the system in such as manner as to make these different channels a functional necessity. I.e., so that the main channel did not get overwhelmed with auctions, guild meetings could be private, and RP instructions could happen on a group or tell level. So actually I meant that in support of your previous post.
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This /auction issue deals with various aspects of PS and mixes them in a confusing way. Each one of us focussing on a specific one, there are little chances it will reach the needed consencus.
Being in the "General discussion" part of the forums, I personaly think it's more intended to find a generaly agreed use of /auction as it is implemented. A way to use it that will make it acceptable for public tradings to share the ingame world with other activities (discussions, fights, ...)
To suggest changes, the "Whish list" is the right place. All you need is not only to point a problem but suggest improvements. Some where made here that are constructive and deserve a collaborative thinking.
Sorry if I hurt a few, by blaming the way they did point problems, but there is little need to insist on saying "it's bad" once it's agreed that a problem exists.
Let's try to separate the various critics, workarounds, and whishes made so far:
* First, the original question made to GMs and devs by Edicho:
I can only answer as a GM, the answer by devs can mainly be to implement or not a suggestion made in thhe whish list.
GMs are only giving recommandations, reminders, or even warning when needed. When is it needed? When ingame actions are abusing the system features for a personal benefit without respect of the need to share the server. (please don't answer this here. It's not the place and this is an incomplete definition that only applies to this specific issue).
That is why there is no "official" GMs position. The only GM intervention that can occur in auctions is to ask one to lower the frequency of calls to prevent flooding and to avoid private dialogs on this public chanel.
* is it IC to answer an auction in /tell? yes if you are close enough to whisper.
* /auction is not a worldwide chanel. It is like shouting. There is a separate command to allow a different color to be used. Why a different color? because of a possible different intonation IC and to make it easier to follow a transaction. An auction being made of successful bids, it makes it easier to see the next one within other chats. Since it is in a separate chat tab, those /historical/ reasons are less obvious now.
* The command name /auction defines a primarily intended usage. The fact that it is used for Shop announcements, instead of /shout is the proof of players' creativity when it comes to use a command in a respectful way. What is in /auction color is to be read by people looking for gear or interrested in knowing the trade prices of them.
* The command is not OOC by itself. Only an OOC usage of the features makes it so. You have to remember that not all the implementations are made in the name of "realism" nor IC meaning only. Some features are here for the gameplay. To make it easier to deal with "real" facts, like all the commands used to stay in touch with your guildmates that are often friends OOC. There is no reason to claim that speaking loudly when auctioning would be OOC.
* Creating market places. It is a whish. But before proposing an implementation, you might consider that in a medieval fantasy world, it is unlikely to have a "Mall". A souk of mobile merchants has his place. Limiting it to a specific place would be irrealistic. Once again if the usage is to sell in the arena and the plaza, it's a local custom, not an enforced rule.
* If you ignore people abusing a feature, (visible stats, range of chat commands, ...) there are little chances that he will change his ways if you ignore him. Before long others are going to do the same and whether you like it or not, it will be the new custom and the general agreement to to so.