Auction rules...

[Nikodemus]

We can't realistically expect people to stay IC if the channel itself doesn't, now can we?

We doesn't hear shout no matter where we are, we did i MB, but it is over long time ago^^ So i suppose you basicaly say that you are in a building and you can hear clearly whats outside. I'm sorry, but you hate action channel so much, but you say no single word about other channels. It is exactly the same thing or worse, because in some cases you cant hear what others said at all! like group or guild. So drop this argument.
Limits trading only to some places? The places are already limited, so i don't know why you want to limit them more. Such places change as the world and conditions are changing. Given the fact PS is under heavy development, do you want the devs to split their time also on finding out where exactly these spots should be? Or you want the GMs to punish people for selling an item? Absurd.
Sorry, i fail to see what do you mean with the Ebay (your punctuation/grammar/"my reading skills" problem)
No idea why you want to justify "trade jargon". It just happens, its natural.

One from not many good ideas i read in this topic is to raname action to market. And the nitpicking people at least won't complain when all related to trading dialogs will be inside that tab. People won't complain that it should be only for traders who offer stuff.

[zhai]

We can't realistically expect people to stay IC if the channel itself doesn't, now can we?

We doesn't hear shout no matter where we are, we did i MB, but it is over long time ago^^ So i suppose you basicaly say that you are in a building and you can hear clearly whats outside. I'm sorry, but you hate action channel so much, but you say no single word about other channels. It is exactly the same thing or worse, because in some cases you cant hear what others said at all! like group or guild. So drop this argument.
Limits trading only to some places? The places are already limited, so i don't know why you want to limit them more. Such places change as the world and conditions are changing. Given the fact PS is under heavy development, do you want the devs to split their time also on finding out where exactly these spots should be? Or you want the GMs to punish people for selling an item? Absurd.
Sorry, i fail to see what do you mean with the Ebay (your punctuation/grammar/"my reading skills" problem)
No idea why you want to justify "trade jargon". It just happens, its natural.

One from not many good ideas i read in this topic is to raname action to market. And the nitpicking people at least won't complain when all related to trading dialogs will be inside that tab. People won't complain that it should be only for traders who offer stuff.

I think you misunderstand. I never said I hated the auction channel. I never said GMs should intervene at all for that matter. And I certainly don't want to boss around the dev. team and push them into dealing with this thing right away. My first question in this thread was "how does auction channel work IC?" to which I got an answer: it would be like a person shouting, only OOCly distinguished by a tab and text color that would facilitate getting these messages. When I said that we can hear it everywhere, I didn't mean that auctions are like global shouts. No. I meant that you can use the auction channel anywhere. And if you're within range, you'll hear it. No matter where these people are: bronze doors, sewers, death realm, anywhere. Should there be a market anywhere? Does it make sense to yell in the middle of nowhere to sell something? A crowded or at least populated area would be a better place to "invest" in advertising.

And well, even then, characters can be in completely different places yet within range when the /auction channel is used. No possible conversation could take place. Yet, players want to trade for their own OOC reasons too. So /tell or /group kick in. And that's the virtual space I referred to (as in a non physical place of interaction, just like this forum). There's no face to face encounter prior to the actual exchange of goods. All the negotiation happens OOC most of the time. So that's a contradiction to the answer to my first question. The auction channel is a shout, yet the whole trade process steps out of character pretty quickly.

By having only a few places where the auction channel would work, I think more IC interaction would be encouraged for trading. You would have to go and meet the trader in person and negotiate right there. Your character needs a weapon? He should go somewhere and buy it. That's staying IC. Why exclude this part from any RP? Characters "go hunting". Well, they should "go shopping" too.

Now, that's a suggestions that is aimed to place the auction channel in a more IC area but if it is meant to be an OOC channel, then leave it as it is and don't try to force any rules on it. The best thing to do with an OOC channel that everyone has access to is to selflimit our entries to the minimum possible to avoid flooding. No point in calling the channel "market" or "trade" or any different from what it is if it still is a non tête-a-tête channel. Call it "virtual store" or "magic catalog" for that matter. It would be more accurate. How can you talk to/hear someone so far from you? Magic! Easiest way out... Meh, I'm done here.

[Nikodemus]

Zhai, I just couldn't agree with most what you wrote and if you got a feeling that i claimed that you wrote somethink, while you did not, it means i was assuming, because it isn't clear what you meant, or why.
Even though you explained some points from your previous post, i still can't agree with ony of it (what doesn't include ideas in above and not the previous post), my previous statements and arguments persist.

You still call the auction channel OOC, like it was OOC in some unique and special way. I don't know. But you say no word abut communication in overal at all. You know, you can't call the action occ not calling ooc the whole system. If auction is ooc, shout is also ooc, because it is exactly the same thing. Only devs were so nice for us and gave us choice to distinguish traiding from overithing else, by color or that we can even filter it out. Like with any other channel.
Unless you know all this, but don't put all the informations which would state that.


I'm worried in overal that there are so few people, who actually try to roleplay in this game including everything it has to offer. People eighter pick some features from it and roleplay only when these are involved or roleplay with no respect for any features, often cutting off other people who could disrupt them.
Thats my feeling free reading this topic. Maybe people just give this feeling there, while in game do their best.

[eldoth_terevan]

@hadfael: I should write more clearly when I am stating something that is meant to be a 'devils advocate' type of point. I think that the current system is good. And I believe that it has evolved into the separate /tell, /auction, /guild, et cetera channels because the users were using the system in such as manner as to make these different channels a functional necessity. I.e., so that the main channel did not get overwhelmed with auctions, guild meetings could be private, and RP instructions could happen on a group or tell level. So actually I meant that in support of your previous post.

[Hadfael]

This /auction issue deals with various aspects of PS and mixes them in a confusing way. Each one of us focussing on a specific one, there are little chances it will reach the needed consencus.
Being in the "General discussion" part of the forums, I personaly think it's more intended to find a generaly agreed use of /auction as it is implemented. A way to use it that will make it acceptable for public tradings to share the ingame world with other activities (discussions, fights, ...)
To suggest changes, the "Whish list" is the right place. All you need is not only to point a problem but suggest improvements. Some where made here that are constructive and deserve a collaborative thinking.
Sorry if I hurt a few, by blaming the way they did point problems, but there is little need to insist on saying "it's bad" once it's agreed that a problem exists.

Let's try to separate the various critics, workarounds, and whishes made so far:
 * First, the original question made to GMs and devs by Edicho:
I can only answer as a GM, the answer by devs can mainly be to implement or not a suggestion made in thhe whish list.
GMs are only giving recommandations, reminders, or even warning when needed. When is it needed? When ingame actions are abusing the system features for a personal benefit without respect of the need to share the server. (please don't answer this here. It's not the place and this is an incomplete definition that only applies to this specific issue).
That is why there is no "official" GMs position. The only GM intervention that can occur in auctions is to ask one to lower the frequency of calls to prevent flooding and to avoid private dialogs on this public chanel.
 * is it IC to answer an auction in /tell? yes if you are close enough to whisper.
 * /auction is not a worldwide chanel. It is like shouting. There is a separate command to allow a different color to be used. Why a different color? because of a possible different intonation IC and to make it easier to follow a transaction. An auction being made of successful bids, it makes it easier to see the next one within other chats. Since it is in a separate chat tab, those /historical/ reasons are less obvious now.
 * The command name /auction defines a primarily intended usage. The fact that it is used for Shop announcements, instead of /shout is the proof of players' creativity when it comes to use a command in a respectful way. What is in /auction color is to be read by people looking for gear or interrested in knowing the trade prices of them.
 * The command is not OOC by itself. Only an OOC usage of the features makes it so. You have to remember that not all the implementations are made in the name of "realism" nor IC meaning only. Some features are here for the gameplay. To make it easier to deal with "real" facts, like all the commands used to stay in touch with your guildmates that are often friends OOC. There is no reason to claim that speaking loudly when auctioning would be OOC.
 * Creating market places. It is a whish. But before proposing an implementation, you might consider that in a medieval fantasy world, it is unlikely to have a "Mall". A souk of mobile merchants has his place. Limiting it to a specific place would be irrealistic. Once again if the usage is to sell in the arena and the plaza, it's a local custom, not an enforced rule.
* If you ignore people abusing a feature, (visible stats, range of chat commands, ...) there are little chances that he will change his ways if you ignore him. Before long others are going to do the same and whether you like it or not, it will be the new custom and the general agreement to to so.