PlaneShift
Gameplay => Guilds Forum => Topic started by: lordraleigh on February 05, 2007, 12:27:38 am
-
Edit By Neko: Topics split from this thread: http://hydlaa.com/smf/index.php?topic=27339.0
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
As the rest of the post became obsolete as well here is the brief. This post started as something lacking seriousness(a very bad joke, I admit it), met Godwins Law (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwins_Law) twice, accidentally offended some people, but then started changing to something else more consistent as some claims denying the previous posted goal of the Dark Empire, "World Domination", is still in account.
*Edited due to obsolescence
-
lordraleigh, what's with you and nazis? The Dark Empire guild has nothing in common with the nazis. Quit being stupid.
-
*Updated*
Pass away from here and go for the next page, as it was still the bad part of the discussion.
-
Bring your flames elsewhere Zanzibar. This is not the place for such actions and offensive words.
Dude, I'm not flaming you. This is around the dozenth time that you've compared the Dark Empire guild to the nazis, and it needs to stop.
-
well, they are lawful evil aren't they? And isn't that was fascism is? Lawful evil? :P
-
well, they are lawful evil aren't they? And isn't that was fascism is? Lawful evil? :P
Fascism is lawful evil, but there are a lot of other systems of government that are lawful evil as well. Some would argue that capitalism is lawful evil. But the point is that fascism is one lawful evil system among many.
The thing is, the Dark Empire - and other likeminded individuals - are above the narrow definitions of good and evil. If you say that your character is "good", or if you say that it's "bad", you haven't really said very much. Not in the context of Planeshift, anyway. And there's no reason why your character can't be a mix of both. So what some of us have done is to decide to throw those words out the window because they aren't terribly useful.
Now, you could argue that a character would say "There's no such thing as good and evil" if they wish to hide the fact that they're evil.:)
-
Fascism is lawful evil, but there are a lot of other systems of government that are lawful evil as well. Some would argue that capitalism is lawful evil. But the point is that fascism is one lawful evil system among many.
actually capitalism would be unlawful evil, being a free market and all :)
Ah, but really, I wasn't serious at all with that statement... As a matter of fact I'm not serious with most of my statements. Always assume that my statement isn't serious, unless I say it isn't.
-
@Lordraleigh I'm being quite serious now when I say that the first comparision to Nazis could slide with me, more will not. I'm begining to find it quite offencive. When said in passing thats quite alright but when repeated in the way you do it becomes rather grating. I am formaly requesting that you stop before I get pissed off.
-
@Lordraleigh I'm being quite serious now when I say that the first comparision to Nazis could slide with me, more will not. I'm begining to find it quite offencive. When said in passing thats quite alright but when repeated in the way you do it becomes rather grating. I am formaly requesting that you stop before I get pissed off.
Take it easy!
Anyway it's gone from here.
And lastly: There is no need of formally making a threat.
No more mentions. Godwins Law (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwins_Law) applied fullwise.
It was not my intention to offend you. Anyway your request was listened to. It's gone. So it's Case Closed. Hostilities are pointless due to that.
And Parallo, I didn't know the Dark Empire was real and that you are a member of them in the real world. Sorry for comparing you to such. In other words: there is a difference between referring to a ficticious organization and to ficticious characters and referring to real ones!. I didn't make this non-serious comparison to the players behind the Dark Empire. Of course I understand if you take any thing targeted towards your RP so seriously. So it's over...
Anyway, I recommend to anyone comparing the Dark Empire with the Nazis to retreat to a quiet cabin in the woods and think over his or her life.
Your witty/sarcastic comment was spotted. X-/ Now this thread met Godwins Law twice. More one reason to bury it. Time to magnify a little the message.
I just noticed that in the edit. I feel the need to respond as it is addressed to me. Firstly, if we go by your logic there is no point in comparing any PS organisation to a RL organisation. You seem inconsistant in that respect. Second, by making that comparision it seems that you think that the upholding of a tradition is equivilent to gassing jews and such. I would naturaly take offence to that as I enjoy the idea of a sense of loyalty and tradition(Non-discriminative of course) rhich is the Empire as I've explained to you time after time. As progressive as I may be in politics I still enjoy the convention of various things like formalities. So yes I take offence.
Well what I meant is that such (bad joke)comparison was not addressed to the members of the Dark Empire as real world people. It was a cheap bad joke, nothing else. Anyway the only point of similarity is the "take over the world" thing and the authoritarianism. Something that several fully different types of organizations, both fictional and real, struggled to achieve. It was not targeted on the values of the players at all, if you were offended, it's over, so no need of bickering about it now.
@ lordraleigh: You should be better than this. You were the one that set the hostile tone. And you had to know that what you said would have offended some people, especially given the number of times that you said it.
This is starting looking like a flame bait (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flame_bait) against me! Do I need to reply for the third time this thing is over and that I cleaned up the posts about it? Well if you wish to keep this pointless discussion while extending the life of this now finished thread, I won't support you by adding a new post zanzibar. I apologized myself about this, as I didn't know the people here took such things so seriously. Now quit with it, this is becoming too personal and seems that hostility is being raised against me in a not very obvious way.
-
You are the one being hostile. Comparing people to Hitler and co. is generally considered not quite nice, no? Don't switch this around to me being aggressive.
-
And Parallo, I didn't know the Dark Empire was real and that you are a member of them in the real world.
I'm totally confused by this sentence. You are talking about the PS guild Dark Empire, aren't you?
Anyway, I recommend to anyone comparing the Dark Empire with the Nazis to retreat to a quiet cabin in the woods and think over his or her life.
-
I just noticed that in the edit. I feel the need to respond as it is addressed to me. Firstly, if we go by your logic there is no point in comparing any PS organisation to a RL organisation. You seem inconsistant in that respect. Second, by making that comparision it seems that you think that the upholding of a tradition is equivilent to gassing jews and such. I would naturaly take offence to that as I enjoy the idea of a sense of loyalty and tradition(Non-discriminative of course) rhich is the Empire as I've explained to you time after time. As progressive as I may be in politics I still enjoy the convention of various things like formalities. So yes I take offence.
-
@ lordraleigh: You should be better than this. You were the one that set the hostile tone. And you had to know that what you said would have offended some people, especially given the number of times that you said it.
actually capitalism would be unlawful evil, being a free market and all :)
In true capitalism, you are a victim to the laws of competition and social darwinism. There may be a lack of rules and a lack of social services, but there are laws (better described as values) which have led to their absence. Capitalism is a society determined by a faith in competition, a faith in social darwinism, and a faith in market forces. So I think it's entirely appropriate to say that capitalism is lawful in the RPG sense.
-
Seems to me, if the Dark Empire was really evil, they would strive to be like the Nazis... And that comparing them to Nazis would be a positive reflection on your RPing skills...
Personally, I don't think 'evil' has a place in Yliakum - the quests are totally OOEC (helping people, etc.) and real acts of evil are banned by the PG-rating... in fact, Planeshift in general shows no support for Evil characters at all, outside of RP.
-
Planeshift in general shows no support for Evil characters at all, outside of RP.
I can't see the support much too, but err.. you know... evil characters and RP is one and the same thing, you can't show no support for evil characters, but support their RP being evil...
-
lordraleigh, I thought you and I talked about all of this. You said you would quit it, I am beginning to feel seriously offended by it and I am sure many of my guild mates as well.
If your character has something against DE then take care of that problem in-game and don't take it to the boards.
-
lordraleigh, I thought you and I talked about all of this. You said you would quit it, I am beginning to feel seriously offended by it and I am sure many of my guild mates as well.
If your character has something against DE then take care of that problem in-game and don't take it to the boards.
I wanted this thread to die as it met Godwins Law twice, and is emptied of reason to continue, but others don't.
I talked about you after this thread Jekkar, and it never was my intention to have all those things as an offense.
I erased the references on this thread, some people just like to pull it over for unknown reasons.
So lets throw away this thing, but thanks to one or other, it becomes difficult.
And emeraldfool, if some people get offended by such comparisons, don't pull them over again after all.
Of course, there're differences, personally I wouldn't care if I had created a fictional "evil organization" and hyperbolic unrealistic comparisons were done about it with, but I understand the tendency to take such things seriously. So I ask for the last time:
Finish this thing, it's over, it's dead, it's gone and it's past
-
Seems to me, if the Dark Empire was really evil, they would strive to be like the Nazis... And that comparing them to Nazis would be a positive reflection on your RPing skills...
The Dark Empire is not evil. The Empire is above such meager distinctions. It's more like the second reich than the third if you must know.
-
The Dark Empire is not evil. The Empire is above such meager distinctions. It's more like the second reich than the third if you must know.
Bismarck's realpolitik (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Realpolitik) really fits with that.
But is the Dark Empire completely devoid of ideological politics and fully based on an amoral and realistic treatment of politics?
-
Realpolotik wasn't actually a term coined by Bismarck. It was Ludwig Von Rauchau. But anyway, the ideology of the Empire is a trinity of Loyalty, Honour and Virtue. That, and of course a bit of ambition, will ensure an Imperialist's rise through the ranks.
-
Seems to me, if the Dark Empire was really evil, they would strive to be like the Nazis.
The Nazis reflect just one kind of evil, and Dwarvesbane already has that one covered.
And like others have said and continue to say, the Dark Empire is made up of roleplayers and characters who see things in more complex terms than simply "good versus evil".
-
Ya know, I have been on quite a while, and I have only seem one member of the Dark Empire. I don't really qualify them as much of a threat, and comparing them to nazis is like comparing celery to a nuke
-
Ya know, I have been on quite a while, and I have only seem one member of the Dark Empire. I don't really qualify them as much of a threat, and comparing them to nazis is like comparing celery to a nuke
You don't call people Nazis if they're threats. You call them Nazis if they're bigots.
-
Ya know, I have been on quite a while, and I have only seem one member of the Dark Empire.
Really? Have you seen members of the Imperial Trades? The Imperial Scholars? The Imperial Intellig... No you wouldn't have seen them.
I don't really qualify them as much of a threat, and comparing them to nazis is like comparing celery to a nuke
We're the opposite of a threat. We're the best thing to happen to Yliakum.
-
We're the opposite of a threat. We're the best thing to happen to Yliakum.
OOC wise surely, due to the lack of longlasting RP-intensive guilds around that deal with politics.
IC-wise...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propaganda (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propaganda)
-
Point out to me a member that ICly does not posess honour and loyalty. Our self assesment is unbiased.
-
Point out to me a member that ICly does not posess honour and loyalty. Our self assesment is unbiased.
Honour and loyalty to what? To the Empire itself regardless of anything else? To the stability and security of Yliakum? To the hidden goals of the Dark Empire(even though most of the members would be unaware of them if they exist)?
Previously it was clearly demonstrated OOCly as "Lawful Evil", so unless a whole overhaul happened over it(something that only happens when leadership shifts) I doubt about that.
The Dark Empire lacks the power level of the RW Roman Empire now, but what would they do once they managed to build up a very powerful military, several political connections and a large intelligence and covert ops network?
-
Honour to ourselves and our fellow Yliakum denizens. Loyalty to the people that strive to create a structured enviroment that upholds this honour; The Empire.
The Dark Empire lacks the power level of the RW Roman Empire now, but what would they do once they managed to build up a very powerful military, several political connections and a large intelligence and covert ops network?
We have those.
-
The Dark Empire has very little to do with the Nazi's.
It is not an evil guild, we do not believe in allignment.
It has no prejudices.
It isn't run by a maniac.
It doesn't commit Genocide.
The only link is the fact that the Dark Empire is powerful and well structured.
You can have your opinion Raleigh, I don't care, you don't know about the inner happenings of the guild and so your knowledge is quite limited.
That's enough on the Dark Empire, please. I doubt that's what this thread is about.
-
The Dark Empire lacks the power level of the RW Roman Empire now, but what would they do once they managed to build up a very powerful military, several political connections and a large intelligence and covert ops network?
We have those.
Claiming your organization has the equivalent power of a Roman Empire without any fact to back it up is a little of godmodding, isn't it?
How many cities were controlled by Rome? How large is the Dark Empie army? This is a real overestimation, still the Dark Empire obviously has the potential for achieving that in the future.
The Dark Empire has very little to do with the Nazi's.
I already know that, what i said is that I doubt that taking over territories in Yliakum is off from DE's agenda for the future.
You can have your opinion Raleigh, I don't care, you don't know about the inner happenings of the guild and so your knowledge is quite limited.
Neither do I. And my opinion is that the Empire goal is absolute power, period.
-
The Dark Empire lacks the power level of the RW Roman Empire now, but what would they do once they managed to build up a very powerful military, several political connections and a large intelligence and covert ops network?
We have those.
Claiming your organization has the equivalent power of a Roman Empire without any fact to back it up is a little of godmodding, isn't it?
How many cities were controlled by Rome? How large is the Dark Empie army? This is a real overestimation, still the Dark Empire obviously has the potential for achieving that in the future.
We have a powerful military and a large intelligence and covert ops network. I never said we were as powerful as the Roman empire.
-
Actually, I havent seen any of those either. Maybe I just arnt paying attention.
-
Dark Empire is a hidden guild, IIA is a hidden guild...
The only guild you can notice is the Imperial Trades, stick around the blacksmiths and you will surely notice them.
-
The Dark Empire lacks the power level of the RW Roman Empire now, but what would they do once they managed to build up a very powerful military, several political connections and a large intelligence and covert ops network?
Should the Dark Empire enter a time of war, there are many outside of the guild who will answer its call to battle.
-
Should the Dark Empire enter a time of war, there are many outside of the guild who will answer its call to battle.
Because of what?
Lots of trias to recruit mercenaries?
A huge association of traditionalists all over Yliakum?
Massive popularity among the people?
A web of alliances to make others fight for them?
-
Because of what?
Old loyalties and common ideology.
Lots of trias to recruit mercenaries?
Uh... that doesn't work very well.
A huge association of traditionalists all over Yliakum?
Traditionalists? What does traditionalism have to do with anything?
Massive popularity among the people?
In part.
A web of alliances to make others fight for them?
People only do what they want to do.
-
Traditionalists? What does traditionalism have to do with anything?
The concept Honor is most of times connected with traditional values, and can be classified as well as a traditional value.
Loyalty, Honor and Virtue usually implies in an organization that values traditions.
----
*Add
IC-wise where would the Dark Empire popularity come from? Do they run or support some kind of NGO or altruistic project for organization marketing purposes? Or is it because many of their members aided into bashing the "Obvious Evil" types?
-
IC-wise where would the Dark Empire popularity come from? Do they run or support some kind of NGO or altruistic project for organization marketing purposes? Or is it because many of their members aided into bashing the "Obvious Evil" types?
I think the Dark Empire's primary attraction is good, charismatic leadership. The philosophy of the guild is another point of attraction for people.
-
The concept Honor is most of times connected with traditional values, and can be classified as well as a traditional value.
Loyalty, Honor and Virtue usually implies in an organization that values traditions.
Loyalty, Honor and Virtue? I don't see why this would be traditional at all. It even makes me think of the Napolean revolution among other things and really can't say they hung onto "old traditions"
Obviously in our current society these may seem linked to tradition seeing they aren't "hot" words anymore, but really every generation has their own meaning of these words and so "old traditions" is more I think your view of the words colored by the movies perhaps then that the words themself imply such.
-
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honor)
for women, according to Dr Johnson, honour is synonymous with "chastity".
"Honour" in the case of females is frequently related, historically, to sexuality: preservation of "honour" equated primarily to maintenance of virginity of unattached women and to the exclusive monogamy of the remainder. One can speculate that feminism has changed some linguistic usage in this respect. Conceptions of honour vary widely between cultures; in some cultures, honour killings of (mostly female) members of one's own family are considered justified if the individuals have "defiled the family's honour" by marrying against the family's wishes, or even by being the victims of rape. These honour killings are generally seen in the West as a way of men using the culture of honour to control female sexuality
Napoleon motto was "Freedom, Equality and Fraternity" from what I remember.
Loyalty is pretty neutral and not necessarily linked to the "conservative X progressist" spectrum, Virtue also is a very neutral concept in those regards, but as for Honor(or Honour), well the cultural aspects related to it are conservative as demonstrated by the quotations from Wikipedia.
-
I despise the positivist approach to things like this. Definitions of things like loyalty and honour are entirely subjective and audience based.
Even when talking about things in a historical perspective, different people had different ideas so you can't conjure up some objective definition that covers all the ground. For instance, the "honour" of a woman in ancient times if it was connected to virginity would be more synomonous with "value" or "desirableness". This is because back then, women were more commonly seen as commodities and objects. If a woman was not a virgin, it would be more difficult to marry her off, and therefore her value decreased. In order to encourage women to protect their virginity - and I'm using the term "woman" loosely here because it used to be that girls would marry at age 12 to 14 at the latest, 16 and you're an old maid - social pressure was used to help keep then in line. If they do something to make themselves less valuable to their men, they would suffer social consequences. Such things then took on a life of their own.
And yeah, this is all old news to you, but the positivist approach is still being used...
-
The Dark Empire is an Empire (organization/alliance if you want mechy terms) with high ambitions that doesn't hide its true purpose of controlling as much as they are able to. However nothing indicates that this goal will be pursued through vicious methods. In fact, if you judge the Empire for what it is now, you could determine that our actions have been positive. We've provided aid many times against evils found both in Hydlaa and Oja.
The Empire's virtues are the Empire's virtues. They are obviously meant to guide ourselves so that we can make the best of the Empire. It's normal that people outside could feel intimidated or suspicious about these, since we are growing to prove them as very efficient. Still, only those who're thinking of standing in our way should feel such doubts. And currently our way has been merely progressing and aiding wherever we can.
-
Napoleon motto was "Freedom, Equality and Fraternity" from what I remember.
I said it reminded me of that not that their motto was those exact words allthough I think that motto shows already why "Loyalty, Honor and Virtue" wouldn't sound wrong at all coming from Napoleons mouth and at the same time that the meaning changes over time. If I tell you that I feel you are honorable I in no way mean you are a traditionalist. If I say you have no honor I most definately don't mean to say you are someone who is for a new movement.
-
Dark Empire is a hidden guild, IIA is a hidden guild...
The only guild you can notice is the Imperial Trades, stick around the blacksmiths and you will surely notice them.
Ahh. This would explain why I can't see them. Is there a "main" HQ guild that controls them all, am i just being dumb and not noticing it? oh well.
-
Well... Interesting discussion, once it starts off. :whistling: The concept of Honour, as I see it, differs enourmously according to which culture and time period you are referring to. Honour to a Roman (or rather "virtus") is quite different to a medieval knight's Honour (Arthurian ideal). And Machiavelli's Virtue (or "virtu") could barely qualify as Honour.
But I have one thing to set strait.
Napoleon motto was "Freedom, Equality and Fraternity" from what I remember.
As a matter of fact, Napoleon Bonaparte didn't have much to do with the 1789-1793 French Revolution. What he did do was establish a Consulate after Robespierre's reign of Terror, before being crowned Emperor of the French (and getting involved in world politics to a certain degree, such as invading Prussia and all that ;) ). And initially, France's new motto was "Liberty, Equality", since it is said the revolutionnaires weren't too keen to being fraternal with the monarchists, who were still powerful (heck, they reinstored a king during the 19th century). "Fraternity" was added under the IIIrd Republic (1848-1940).
Anyway... :offtopic:
-
Thank you Lomerandin. *smiles*
I wasn't really thinking to deeply about the revolution and when it all happened but now that you mention it you are completely right. Well not sure you are sompletely, but about Napoleon only being the leader after the revolution and all. Still in your mind the two are hard to seperate ;)
But anyhow drifting ;)
-
Boredom turns anyone into a "forum archivist"...
http://hydlaa.com/smf/index.php?topic=1341.0 (http://hydlaa.com/smf/index.php?topic=1341.0)
http://www.geocities.com/thedarkempireofps/index.html (http://www.geocities.com/thedarkempireofps/index.html)
How it changed after 5 years.
http://hydlaa.com/smf/index.php?topic=15005.0 (http://hydlaa.com/smf/index.php?topic=15005.0)
http://psdarkempire.webhop.org/ (http://psdarkempire.webhop.org/)
-
Wow. I didn't even remember that post.
We've evolved plenty.
-
1. You mentioned it yourself it's five years. That is what? More then twenty years in PS? And you think it's strange the DE has changed a bit from that first day it was created? After so many changes in the game and so many wipes it's rather nitpicking to dig up threads from five years ago.
Everyone is treated fairly and is to be respected. We help each other in times of need and we work together to accomplish our missions and goals.
2. I don't see how it has changed as much as you say. It always had a caring part for it's own members just as it has now. And yes in theory our enemies could be anyone we wish, but in the FIVE years around I believe it's been proven the DE isn't a random kill all guild no matter what you seem to suggest. Yes we have gone more political then was envisioned in the beginning, but that is adjusting to what is possible in the game and adjusting to what would be realistic at this point in the game. A change that happened years ago aswell and not just today mind you
-
I believe it's been proven the DE isn't a random kill all guild no matter what you seem to suggest. Yes we have gone more political then was envisioned in the beginning, but that is adjusting to what is possible in the game and adjusting to what would be realistic at this point in the game.
Exactly. It's been a great effort to adapt the Dark Empire to the Planeshift setting without disrupting its initial idea. I believe I was successful, though I might have added some extra subtlety to it.
Changes were brought upon taking into consideration that there's a poweful government in Yliakum and you can't just go around killing people and ignore the retribution of such power.
I believe what we have now is a great success. The Empire is gathering forces to be able to set its own place somewhere. We're not after a lost city, we're not searching for our lost legacy. We're simply seeking out a place for ourselves, at the moment, to base our power and live prosperly.
Considering we're staying at a place we do not deem to be our own (Hydlaa), and that we're obviously respectful of everything around us, it's only normal that we dont' go around raising swords against people without a reason. It would make us seem unworthy of power, and it'd be suicide.
Our objective can't be reached in a day. It can't be done, like some people some times expect, with a war, or with a threat or anything like that. It must be planned and executed patiently and surely, so the base of our effort is solid enough to resist anything that comes. This way any possible failures will be met with resistance, and all successes kept with perseverance.
I'd like to discuss something more pertinent though. These are questions we're usually asked, and the answers I've given to them.
"What have you conquered to be an Empire?" Currently we've achieved respect, members of great skill and our plots are pointing flawlessly towards the occupation of our first lands. These are traits of an Empire. I actually prefer to think we're a proto-empire than making up a story about having lands in some place that no one can get to. I'd rather have myself and the imperialists be the ones to forge our history. It will mean alot more in the future, and it's how we've been doing things up until now.
"You are named the Dark Empire and you don't kill lots of people! We're bored and we think the only thing fun about playing PS is the Good vs Evil fights which you guys never, or rarely, take part in. Why aren't you cool like the rest of us who take part in those pointless events?" Hahaha. Go away. I'm not sure you can shame yourself any further, but I'd rather not have to find out.
-
It's the journey that's important in the end anyway.
-
actually capitalism would be unlawful evil, being a free market and all :)
In true capitalism, you are a victim to the laws of competition and social darwinism. There may be a lack of rules and a lack of social services, but there are laws (better described as values) which have led to their absence. Capitalism is a society determined by a faith in competition, a faith in social darwinism, and a faith in market forces. So I think it's entirely appropriate to say that capitalism is lawful in the RPG sense.
yeah, I know, this is from way back when, but with this you are subjected to nothing more than natures law. By this definition all things involving living creatures are lawful.
-
yeah, I know, this is from way back when, but with this you are subjected to nothing more than natures law. By this definition all things involving living creatures are lawful.
There is nothing natural about capitalism or its premises.
In the natural world, we do see examplse of animals and insects working towards a common goal. We see self sacrifice for the common good. Some creatures work according to their ability and take according to their needs. This idea of everyone being out for themselves in a cut throat competitive environment is not natural. It's not even human. The reason why the human race has achieved such greatness is because of our ability to work together and take care of one another.
Not only is capitalism unnatural, it's unhuman as well.
-
Not only is capitalism unnatural, it's unhuman as well.
Who made it then if it isn't human? The devil?
Nah, capitalism is just another form of hierarchical distribution of power, and as all others, leads to corruption. But ambition and ego are very common in human nature, specially when culturally they are encouraged, alongside the brainwashing of media to promote unstopable consumerism that pulls people to the edges in the permanent goal of acquiring money.
And the Dark Empire is closest to being in between Lawful Neutral and Lawful Evil if using D&D alignments. Although D&D alignments are extremely superficial.
-
What makes them evil? Their tactics? I've seen supposedly "good" guilds do things that would make your grandmother cry.
The point is that pure capitalism is not natural. Just as you say, it's a structure forced upon society by human agency.
-
You do not judge an organization by its means, but by its ends.
An autocracy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autocracy) could be considered either as lawful neutral or as lawful evil from the sketchy D&D alignments. But the very subjective(and arguable) concept of "Benevolent Dictator" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benevolent_Dictator) could fit here as well. I would say the Dark Empire currently is more of a lawful neutral organization.
-
You do not judge an organization by its means, but by its ends.
I hold the opposite as true. "Rule by X" is a statement of means.
-
Growls tired of people spreading false rumours and speculations of his empire
Get it straight, it's Neutral good.
Those whom are afraid of Ecuetas in game are afraid out of stupidity or rumoured speculations.
Ecuetas has always fought to uphold justice. As has his fellow guild members. We do not go around attempting to enslave people. We do not go around slaughtering people just because they give us a dirty look.
Those who fear ecuetas, fear him out of stupidity and rumoured speculations because they do not take the time to get to know him. As is the same with the rest of his guild members. END DISCUSSIONS OF US BEING NAZIS! I am part German, and ANYONE comparing us to nazis's is becoming quite insulting.
I can show people true evil in game if you want the rumours to be true. But guess what. I serve a higher purpose. I serve Nurahk, and Sangwa, so without there permission, I will not show people true evil. End of this topic. No more, it is dead.
It's old. We're not lawful evil. On our website we are Neutral Good. So stop the rumours. I'm tired of being tugged in 15 different directions at once with people pulling me aside asking are we evil?! We're NOT!
That's the end of it. I don't want to hear anymore of this DE is evil and wants to control people!
-
But the Dark Empire does want to control the people.
-
The Empire does not want to hold a dictatorship over Yliakum.
We do not wish to restrict freedom any more than preventing crime.
As opposed to the common belief that we wish to own all of Yliakum we lean more towards having a hand in guiding it to better itself.
-
But the Dark Empire does want to control the people.
You insult me by saying Im lying? You don't even know me, so sheathe your tongue, and don't call people you don't know liars
-
No, they do want to control the whole of Yliakum.
edit: replying by editing older posts is annoying, don't do it.
And to reply in this annoying way, as I do not want to doublepost:
You're totally wrong, the goal of the Dark Empire is obviously to conquer the world. Maybe the leaders don't trust you enough if they didn't tell you their long-term goals.
-
Have control over all of Yliakum. Of course, who doesn't want to keep their friends from dying?
The control we seek is not evil, it's human nature.
-
Phoenix you're 1 post away from annoying the crap out of me. And they do trust me. So Guess what. Annoy me, and I'll show you true evil in the game :lol:
-
I like this @Nurahk, to keep the answers more or less like they would IC to avoid something called spoiling and to keep people curious.
And @Ecuetas, the Dark Empire means would be more or less around "Lawful Good" or "Lawful Neutral", but its ends, it's another history that no one is sure about.
But my advice.
Time to weed out this alignment discussion. The Dark Empire "alignment" is "Loyalty, Virtue and Honor".
Have control over all of Yliakum. Of course, who doesn't want to keep their friends from dying?
The control we seek is not evil, it's human nature.
Ambition is one of the aspects of human nature
-
And Ambition is only a bad thing when the dose is too large.
-
Have control over all of Yliakum. Of course, who doesn't want to keep their friends from dying?
The control we seek is not evil, it's human nature.
I'm not saying that that control is evil at all, on the contrary! I'm merely pointing out how awfully blunt Ecuetas is for someone who's supposed to be a "respectable member" of the glorious Dark Empire.
phoenix you're 1 post away from annoying the crap out of me. And they do trust me. So Guess what. Annoy me, and I'll show you true evil in the game LOL
Proved my point. It seems the quality of Dark Empire members is degrading. You should act, Nurahk, he is your pet after all.
-
He does his job well, Thom.
He may not be the most political of people but, I'm not going to make the all too common mistake of punishing him for OOC acts.
He is a respectable member, he's not a political member at all.
-
Hmm, yes, a blunt weapon. But hey, those are needed too!
And I wasn't suggesting IC punishment for OOC acts ;)
-
Nope, Im the Muscle of the group \\o//
I don't do polotics Im the muscle for a reason :whistling:
:oops: did I get back into this topic? I was content mining.
-
It seems a little contradictory to claim to be honorable and yet to hide your affiliations, why is the top level guild secret, exactly? I am not too invested in this argument but think this may be the source of some contention.
-
@bilbous: I don't see how it is contradictory to be honorable while hiding your affiliations,
I see no reason why the mute hero is any less of a hero than the one who will never shut up.
I'll not have this thread turn into a discussion about Ecuetas.
He's got great leadership, all he has to do is take control of his
pride.
The Empire is, as it always has been, known only to a select few
at the top of the chain. What little that is hidden to the rest of
the Empire may prove crucial in this discussions about the Empire.
As Shadowlord I am in control of the diplomatic entity in the Empire
and with said standing I'm going to ask that only Natrina, Setmot, Sangwa and
Myself reply to the arguments and questions that will be brough up in
this thread. This is an annoying restriction which even I do not fully
agree with but, I am hoping that it will help end this needless thread
and the many other times the Empire has been brought up.
Therefore, I'll open the stage to any questions or concerns you may have
Sangwa, Setmot, Natrina or Myself will answer them. I'll ask that you keep your
questions structured.
-
Shaping the future towards your own means, that's the same as controlling it.
-
That's the same as trying to be successful.
Or planning to have a baby.
Or trying to get a promotion.
Or attempting to survive a battle.
Or...pretty much anything... ;)
The whole idea of life is shaping the future towards your own means.
There is nothing natural about capitalism or its premises.
In the natural world, we do see examplse of animals and insects working towards a common goal. We see self sacrifice for the common good. Some creatures work according to their ability and take according to their needs. This idea of everyone being out for themselves in a cut throat competitive environment is not natural. It's not even human. The reason why the human race has achieved such greatness is because of our ability to work together and take care of one another.
Not only is capitalism unnatural, it's unhuman as well.
You've got a very strange idea of what nature is like. Wolf packs have their alpha males, apes have their alpha males, all pack animals have their alpha males.
The alpha male very rarely condemns the rest of the pack to starve so that he can eat more.
All the same, this is the wrong thread.
-
But Nurahk, we're not talking about shaping the future of one individual, as in your examples, but of the future of an entire world.
-
Then we'll take another look at shaping the future, from a guilds perspective.
Killing thieves and murders is shaping the future, many good guilds have done this.
Does that make them evil?
-
Indirect shaping yes. But I thought the Dark Empire was not one of those petty "good" guilds and wanted to shape the future directly.
-
We aren't, I'm just showing that any alignment can and should have the goal of shaping the future.
The Empire does not believe in alignment, this thread does nothing more than prove our point. Certain aspects of the
guild may be evil, others may be good. The end may be good the means evil and vice versa. Added to which we do
not have any single goal besides shaping the future so that the world becomes a better place, by our standards. And,
that goal is amazingly vague.
-
@bilbous: I don't see how it is contradictory to be honorable while hiding your affiliations,
I see no reason why the mute hero is any less of a hero than the one who will never shut up.
Hmm that example is rather poor. It is true that the concept of secret guilds comes up against some out of context considerations as guild tags themselves are such. That being said I would consider it to be a lie of omission to appear to be guildless when you are a member of a guild that is bent on world domination. If all guilds had no tag then there would be no aspect of deception but the very act of hiding your affiliation lends the appearance of dishonorable intentions and it seems to me the truly honorable takes pains to avoid even the appearance of suspect actions.
This is a very theoretical distinction as real life is rarely black and white and you are free to define honor as you wish. It just goes against the ideal of honor. I do not believe that the government is so bad that it deserves to be overthrown and to seek power for its own sake is not an honorable course. Perhaps I have misunderstood the guilds intentions.
-
Added to which we do not have any single goal besides shaping the future so that the world becomes a better place, by our standards. And,
that goal is amazingly vague.
Yeah it's vague, I would really want to see an official Dark Empire "list of goals" or something to make it more clear.
-
That being said I would consider it to be a lie of omission to appear to be guildless when you are a member of a guild that is bent on world domination. If all guilds had no tag then there would be no aspect of deception but the very act of hiding your affiliation lends the appearance of dishonorable intentions and it seems to me the truly honorable takes pains to avoid even the appearance of suspect actions.
To begin, world domination is a rumour. A false one at that. If we were bent on world domination, we would have it.
Some of the most honorable ends have means that must be done is secrecy. The Dark Empire isn't going to be Yliakum's savior, nor is it going to be it's bane. We look after our own and see no point in flaunting everything good we do. Honor to ones self and guild.
This is a very theoretical distinction as real life is rarely black and white and you are free to define honor as you wish. It just goes against the ideal of honor. I do not believe that the government is so bad that it deserves to be overthrown and to seek power for its own sake is not an honorable course. Perhaps I have misunderstood the guilds intentions.
I've already said that we do not wish to overthrow the gouvernment.
--------------
A list of goals?
Alright, at the moment we are
1) Trying to stop people from murdering my daughter.
2) Hunting down a dwarf who killed a Glow in cold blood.
3) Trying to put an end to these misconceptions.
In the long run, we know that we want
1) Safety for the guild members
2) Knowledge of the happenings of Yliakum.
3) A good economical base
4) Knowledge of the arcane arts.
All of these are intertwined.
5) To bring the Dark Empire to glory.
-
So if then I am a shopkeeper and I put a sign in my window saying "No Dark Imperials allowed" you would not enter even though I make far and away the best ale in the realm bar none?
-
I'd confront you outside of your shop and ask you why you didn't allow dark Imperials.
If you bring up a reason, I would debate with you.
If you didn't, it would be prejudice and you'd learn to respect your fellow men. ;)
-
Yeah, I knew all those above. Explain nr 5 though. Define glory.
-
Define Glory?
Can you?
Raise the Empire up in the eyes of the public.
Is the best I can do.
-
In other words your way or the highway? Would you bother to reveal your affiliation in the discussion or just lay me out with me being none the wiser? I might be most intractable, I might have clientele in the establishment that are your sworn enemies and I do not want it to be the site of a bloodbath, there might be any number of reasons.
-
I'd confront you outside of your shop and ask you why you didn't allow dark Imperials.
If you bring up a reason, I would debate with you.
If you didn't, it would be prejudice and you'd learn to respect your fellow men. ;)
Of course I would reveal who I was.
See, this is how people read my posts.
Line 1: Nothing wrong there
Line 2: Good point
Line 3: Haha, If I ignore the rest I can get him there.
I'm not going to reply to your post any more than I already have, bilbous.
-
I find it ironic that the people questioning the Dark Empire now are actually contributing to keep it on the spotlight.
-
@LordRaleigh:
Your point is...uhh..stupid...and bad...
This much free publicity is...umm...bad for us...yes <.<
:P
-
ThomPhoenix, you've been such a jerk in this thread.:D Eceutas is a bit new, so what? Big deal. Why are you picking on him so much? IRC wasn't a big enough playground for you?
So if then I am a shopkeeper and I put a sign in my window saying "No Dark Imperials allowed" you would not enter even though I make far and away the best ale in the realm bar none?
Now, why would you want to do something like that? (By the way, by posting something like that, you make it seem like you're just trying to upset people.)
-
@Nurahk
No problem. The empire is the law and you are the Secret Police, nothing dishonorable there.
At least that is the impression I am left with. Enjoy your hypocrisy it does not bother me in the slightest.
@ Zanzibar as I said could be many reasons not least of which would be unwanted patrons with a knife at my wifes throat or merely some perceive slight or philosophical disagreement. If you wish to leave it at that mere hypothetical situation I was about to leave the thread.
-
Haha, Bilbous.
I'm sorry to hear that you think standing up for your friends and punishing prejudice is dominating the world.
Enjoy trolling the rest of the threads in the Hydlaa, it does not bother me in the slightest.
Two people can play at the annoying person who jumps to conclusions ;)
-
@ Zanzibar as I said could be many reasons not least of which would be unwanted patrons with a knife at my wifes throat or merely some perceive slight or philosophical disagreement. If you wish to leave it at that mere hypothetical situation I was about to leave the thread.
DE members tend to leave alone people who aren't a threat to the guild. The same is true for the DC and most other guilds I've looked at.
I also have a hard time seeing a DE member murdering your wife for no reason... they aren't a bunch of psychopaths. That's even the reason why one of my characters was kicked from their guild.
So yeah, I think you said what you said just to upset people.
-
Ad Hominens
And Secret Police is a bad comparison, most usually have one intelligence agency and one secret police right?
But I readed something about "inquisitors" somewhere :whistling:
-
There was a time when we were thinking of having an inquisitor. He would only
act within the guild and in the end, the idea was scraped and the Empire moved
on.
Ad Hominens, heh. The Forum is an archive of logical fallacies :P
-
Another less drastic reason might be that the Imperial Brewers guild wanted to get my recipe and I had every intention to take it to my grave. If you can't handle hypothetical situations that is not my fault. To assume it is impossible for me to have a valid reason for not wanting Imperials in my establishment and must perforce accept them is not honorable in any way I can think. It is not different than "do what I say or you are dead." Don't blame me for your "hidden agenda" .
BTW the guy with the knife was your enemy, why would an Imperial make me put up a sign disallowing Imperials. I am just standing up for anyone who might not like your guild for some reason why would you call that trolling? Good for the gander eh?
-
ThomPhoenix, you've been such a jerk in this thread.:D Eceutas is a bit new, so what? Big deal. Why are you picking on him so much? IRC wasn't a big enough playground for you?
Hmm, let me have fun sometimes! I think I was politely teaching him for his arrogance.
I do not understand you last remark though, I practically never visit #planeshift?
-
Another less drastic reason might be that the Imperial Brewers guild wanted to get my recipe and I had every intention to take it to my grave. If you can't handle hypothetical situations that is not my fault. To assume it is impossible for me to have a valid reason for not wanting Imperials in my establishment and must perforce accept them is not honorable in any way I can think. It is not different than "do what I say or you are dead. Don't blame me for your "hidden agenda" .
BTW the guy with the knife was your enemy, why would an Imperial make me put up a sign disallowing Imperials. I am just standing up for anyone who might not like your guild for some reason why would you call that trolling? Good for the gander eh?
Interesting, my favourite part of you post is where you take the word debate
If you bring up a reason, I would debate with you.
And turn it into kill you if you don't change your mind.
-
Forgive me for assuming that the steps you laid out were to be your operating procedure, you did not say you would accept my right to keep you out.
-
No I didn't.
Didn't see the need to. Debate means that I may be wrong, otherwise I would have said change your mind.
But then, people hear what they want to.
Anything else?
-
If you didn't, it would be prejudice and you'd learn to respect your fellow men
on the heels of If you bring up a reason, I would debate with you
is most disturbing. You might label my reasons as excuses after the debate and proceed to the next step which would lead to you having to kill me or completely disable me such that I would be in no position to oppose your will if I was sufficiently intractable. You still have not said you would respect my rights as shop owner and instruct your minions that my establishment is off-limits. If you do not concede that would do that the rest is pointless. I really don't care as I was just trying to get a better idea of where your guild stands and I see it is nothing but the velvet glove.
-
In which case the shopkeeper is a vile man who holds prejudices for no reason.
Yes, I would teach him to respect his fellow man. As I would any bigot.
And the rest of your post is assumption and mostly you trying to grasp on to the false feeling that you are correct.
It's alright to be wrong, it's how we learn.
I would accept any reason that wasn't down right idiotic.
To expand:
If the reason was quite valid, I would bring it to the high council and we would try to resolve the problem.
If the reason was valid but, not really worthy of the punishment, I would ignore it and order Imperials to stay away.
If the reason was stupid, I'd advise Imperials to stay away.
-
I am just standing up for anyone who might not like your guild for some reason why would you call that trolling?
You aren't standing up for anyone. You're just trying to cause trouble. I can handle hypothetical situations, but the examples you posted are silly and inflammatory. You're trying to start a flame war, nothing more and nothing less.
-
@ Nurahk I will accept that last statement even though it leaves you room to define any reason as idiotic because to continue really would be idiotic. I may be wrong but I doubt that if I was right you would be able to admit it publicly as it would attract a type of player you might not want. I will reserve final judgment until more facts are on the table. The proof is in the pudding and the Tapioca has not yet congealed. I do remain unconvinced that fish eyes and glue can possibly be a tasty concoction.
@ Zanzibar:
-
NKVD is agreed by YOU!!
Call the firefighters!
-
You are wrong but your pride won't let you fully admit it. I respect that.
Now, is there anything else?
-
I may be wrong but I doubt that if I was right you would be able to admit it publicly as it would attract a type of player you might not want.
Yet another sideways insult! I love it!
I will reserve final judgment until more facts are on the table.
Right, because your opinion is all-important. Sheesh!
-
Hey my final opinion means nothing to anyone but me and I see no insult in suggesting a pragmatic approach to recruitment. As I implied the guilds future action will prove its nature. It might even change due to personnel changes, whether planned or unplanned.
Nurahk if you feel it necessary for whatever reason to equivocate to keep your options open that is fine with me just do not expect me to believe 100% and allow me to equivocate at my end as well. Certainly in any hypothetical situation there are more factors that can be added to make blanket assurances invalid. I accept that. Nuff Said?
-
I'm not sure what you guys are talking about. I'll try to clear out somethings though.
First: Any usage of D&D Alignments in this game is out of place. That means any tagging of the Dark Empire, or any other PS guild, using this alien alignment system is far from being accurate, whichever perspective you look at it with. We're not Lawful Evil, Neutral Good or Lawful Neutral.
Second: The Dark Empire doesn't hide its higher ranked people or affiliations. The Dark Empire "guild" is secret merely because I do not wish to part with it and have someone else stealing the name. If you check our descriptions, you'll see we have it obvious that we're part of the Empire. If you don't check our descriptions... Well. I don't care about what you think. Check the Dark Empire's Members Page (http://users.fragnetics.com/darkempire/MEMBERS.HTML) to know who is acknowledged as a true imperialist.
Maybe I should add that we only affiliate to ourselves and our interests.
If it still doesn't make sense to you, it's because you're not familiar with our structure. That is your problem. I assume people discussing here have some basic knowledge about the Empire, and our structure is plainly explained in our website.
Third: My member's quality isn't degrading. Some members need more experience though. Still, all imperialists are imperialists because they are important to us. That's obviously our point of view though. It's possible some of you dislike some of our members, specially if they're an obstacle to you in some way.
Fourth: Our objective is quite simple. It has been called world domination before. However I currently put it in the following wording: to please our ambitions and attain whatever is within our reach. This means it actually depends on our virtues. And currently we've proved to be virtuous by most everyone's standards.
And finally Fifth: I'd ask for the mitigation of all side topics. We don't need confusion.
-
Shrouding this forum members into doubts about the Dark Empire is an excellent advertisement policy, and aways get some unvoluntary(or voluntary) contributors to the Ad keeping the thread alive.
Anyway the goals of the Dark Empire for the near future are *SPOILER*
-
The goals for the near future are simple. Make sure all four main subguilds have a loyal strong membership.
-
Shrouding this forum members into doubts about the Dark Empire is an excellent advertisement policy
I'm being very explicit. If you still have doubts it's either because I didn't answer one of your questions, or you can't seem to grasp the meaning of my words. In both cases, you can ask again and allow me to try and make all your doubts go away.
Our current goals are quite simple. The reason we don't post them publicly is because they hardly concern those who are not willing to aid us. We're currently establishing each Force with its own guild. We're also making sure the Empire is well suited, trained and placed within Hydlaa. Each Imperial Guild obviously has its own specific agenda though.
EDIT TO ADD: I am amused by how we intrigue some people. It's good advertisement indeed to have people discuss us so willingly. It's hardly our doing though, as we're merely providing for something that has been requested: discussion about the Dark Empire.
I'd like to thank for everyone's time and interest, and hope we'll keep receiving both.
-
Trust me on this one. I try starting crap with Sangwa all the time, and he just doesn't let me. He's too straight forward a guy.
So here's my question for Nurahk: Why do you entertain such bogus questions?
-
The truth? I love giving bogus answers.
Look at the answers I gave Thom and you'll know what I mean. :P
-
Just a quick popping in to share some economic policies considering Bilbous' imaginary situation, though I do understand he was aiming for what we'd do when being will blocked.
As to what the objectives and plans in economical terms are leading us to, our economy will be made in such way that, in theory, we'd either have economic relations with your shop or you'd rarely meet an imperialist in it at all (at least speaking for the Imperial Traders), so personally, ignoring you for your "right" to exclude us as customers would be a lovely pleasure.
-
The truth? I love giving bogus answers.
Look at the answers I gave Thom and you'll know what I mean. :P
Nurahk, you must have noticed that I contradicted what you "answered" to me in every post. Sanwa's post just confirms what I've been saying all the time.
Your techniques of seeding confusion about the Empire do not work on me.
Thank you for your time.
-
I'm saying I never actualy gave you an answer, Thom :P
-
You did say it was not the Empire's goal to conquer the world.
To begin, world domination is a rumour. A false one at that.
So you contradict:
Our objective is quite simple. It has been called world domination before.
;)
-
Keeping the Infowars (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infowars) and Information Warfare (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Information_Warfare) IC will be more interesting and appropriate.
@ThomPhoenix: :detective:
-
You did say it was not the Empire's goal to conquer the world.
To begin, world domination is a rumour. A false one at that.
So you contradict:
Our objective is quite simple. It has been called world domination before.
;)
It's not a contradiction. Something can be called X without actually being X.
-
It's not contradiction! It's Doublespeak, the manifestation of a skill called doublethink!
The Dark Empire goal is world domination glory!
Goldstein is a great comrade traitor!
We are in war with Eastasia Eurasia!
-
It's not a contradiction. Something can be called X without actually being X.
Uhuh, if you say so. I prefer people to just say what they mean, or else things get confusing very quickly.
I don't expect you to understand.
-
It's not a contradiction. Something can be called X without actually being X.
Uhuh, if you say so. I prefer people to just say what they mean, or else things get confusing very quickly.
I don't expect you to understand.
You're telling me that never in your life have you heard something described as something it isn't? Give me some credit here.
-
I know a lot of these ones @zanzi
But usually they are used to disguise goals to make they seem positive and good or less obvious( euphemisms and rhethoric ).
Liberation of Iraq
Cultural Revolution
The Purges of Soviet Union
Among many others
-
[hmm, sorry, dunno what happened here, please delete this post someone]
-
You did say it was not the Empire's goal to conquer the world.
To begin, world domination is a rumour. A false one at that.
So you contradict:
Our objective is quite simple. It has been called world domination before.
;)
I said it has been called world domination before. Some of us may consider it rumour nowdays though.
It's not contradiction! It's Doublespeak, the manifestation of a skill called doublethink!
The Dark Empire goal is world domination glory!
Goldstein is a great comrade traitor!
We are in war with Eastasia Eurasia!
The examples you've placed after DE are actually contradictions as well. World Domination can be compatible with Glory. You can't have a great commarade and traitor at the same time and Eastasia isn't Eurasia.
Anyways, I've told you already the guide line we hold currently. It is: "we'll dominate what we are able to." This can mean a lot of things, depending on our capacity. And our recent activity has proven us to be benefitial for both towns and their people.
Also, if you check our history of disagreements, you'll check that we've been only against guilds that were either unrespectful or harmful towards the general wellbeing. I'd say it's safe policy to group those who unreasonably oppose and attempt to undermine our success without provocation to be part of the category above mentioned.
-
I guess I should have made a reference to this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doublespeak (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doublespeak)
Doublespeak is language deliberately constructed to disguise or distort its actual meaning, often resulting in a communication bypass. Such language is often associated with governmental, military, and corporate institutions and its deliberate use by these is what distinguishes it from other euphemisms. Doublespeak may be in the form of bald euphemisms ("downsizing" for "firing of many employees") or deliberately ambiguous phrases ("wet work" for "assassination", "take out" for "destroy").
Or "glory" for "world domination"
-
Isn't anyone else bugged by the fact that these are all questions and worries that SHOULD be thought of as IN CHARACTER? This thread shouldn't even exist.
-
Isn't anyone else bugged by the fact that these are all questions and worries that SHOULD be thought of as IN CHARACTER? This thread shouldn't even exist.
/me locks the thread with an invisible lock, but it does not work properly.
/me suddenly sees a thread disappearing misteriously from the guild forums , and can't(or perhaps is not willing to) post on it anymore.
-
Oh, that's right. These conversations are more amusing character to character, since that's the only place while they hold any worth.
^^
This thread has allowed me to respond to some relevant questions... Maybe someone else has doubts about something else in the Dark Empire?
I'd ask all of you to be as kind as to check psdarkempire.webhop.org (http://psdarkempire.webhop.org) and offer your opinion on anything. There might still be some doubts about some aspects regarding the Dark Empire. That's the reason why this thread has been created after all.
-
Oh, true Sangwa. When I tried having similar conversations with the Dragon Council in character and in game, I ended up getting banned! My bad. When will I learn to distinguish between IC and OOC?
I guess never.
-
Oh, true Sangwa. When I tried having similar conversations with the Dragon Council in character and in game, I ended up getting banned! My bad. When will I learn to distinguish between IC and OOC?
I guess never.
Must have been a real challenge to talk about Dragons IC. ::)
-
Must have been a real challenge to talk about Dragons IC. ::)
Funny enough, Dragons never came up.
-
Must have been a real challenge to talk about Dragons IC. ::)
So you feel that when we ask about the goals of the Dragon Council IC nonetheless we should try to talk about dragons? Judging a book by it's cover much?
-
All right. I will make a guild named "Gangrel Hobbits of Cania Punk Gang" then. Don't judge it by its name OK?
*Added to @Natrina: I was referring to the "Dragon Council" as I already got bored from this Dark Empire discussion.
-
You can only be kidding, lordraleigh, I mean, nobody is that blind to not see the difference between "Dark Empire" and "Gangrel Hobbits of Cania Punk Gang", whatever true point you were aiming at, there must've been a better way to demonstrate it. Let's see what the wiktionary says about the word "dark" for a moment though, as to prove you that judging the Dark Empire as evil cause of it's name is wrong.
1. Having an absolute or (more often) relative lack of light.
The room was too dark for reading.
2. Hidden, secret
"Meantime we shall express our darker purpose" (Shakespeare, King Lear, i 1).
3. Without moral or spiritual light; sinister, malign.
4. (of colour) Dull or deeper in hue; not bright or light.
My sister's hair is darker than mine.
Her skin grew dark with a suntan.
So, who tells you we aren't simply dark cause we haven't got light? (First meaning, which you should have by default.) We're an Empire with no current feudal (in the sense of land) owning, so we're pretty in the dark, pretty empty handed of the future we'll have, pretty the darkness before the dawn of our own greatness, though I don't want to bet on darkness breaking images, as to even with greatness, which we already have, we won't stop being the Dark Empire. We don't bound ourselves to an alignment, as others do using their alignment as an argument to justify their actions or the lack of them. We simply act and only do so according to our own values and ideals.
I can't really see what you're panicking about. You're taking us quite serious, aren't you? As you should. But as to why you're actually afraid, is another thing, I can't see what you're trying to defend. But one thing you can rest assure, lovely commoners, those with no sins have nothing to fear.
Edit: On a second thought, you might be discussing the Dragon Council, as to that I'm simply clueless to why you're going off-topic and participating on off-topic, you really want to keep this thread alive, eh? The post I made still stands for the majority of it, though not as a counter-argument to you, lordraleigh. Many people go judging the Dark Empire just cause of it's name, though the DC does have a somewhat ooc name (which is discussable, PS has reptiles, and in medieval times people said those to be dragons, still didn't make them real, no reason why we can't simply go calling big and strong reptiles dragons, as an adaptation of a term to our reality).
-
*grabs flamers hand and does a wave, chanting kumbyah* :-X
-
Volund, seems you don't know what flaming is. No one here is snapping at the other, we're merely exchanging points of view in a civilized way.
Actually, the post you've just typed is the worst kind of post. It's boring and it actually inspires flaming. Because it sounds like a whine and it's an unfair critic to this discussion of ours.
Anyways, either you people discuss the Dark Empire, or you don't discuss anything here. This is the Dark Empire discussion thread. Make your point, if you do have one, or question us about anything you'd like that has to do with the Dark Empire. If you don't feel like doing any of these, check another thread.
-
Volund, seems you don't know what flaming is.
joking. Now that is personal attacks S.
-
Volund, please keep useless posts out of this thread. Especialy if you are replying to something said 7 days ago.
-
What's so bad about replying to a post that's 7 days old.. a reply is a reply isn't it? Though you're right, it didn't really contribute anything useful.
As for the dictionary/wiktionary referencing posts, dark can mean a lot of things, but judging on the secretive nature of the guild... and the typical reasons for being secretive, it would be assumed that they have sinister intentions behind them.
It's also funny how people will use dictionary references in an argument... some will aim for one definition... and demand you fit in with that because you used that word and therefore must fit definition number X. --- Another will cover all definitions to try to disprove your reasonable assumptions about them, pointing out that number Z means something completely different.
-
There is a rule on "bumping" a thread with useless messages and another one on "ressurrecting" a dead thread I think.
If you want to practice necromancy, make a character in Planeshift with high skills on dark way, not an undead thread.
-
I'm just explaining that the secretive nature of the guild is what would suggest to others that the guild is inherently evil.
EDIT: never mind... wasn't directed at my post, sorry :)
-
necromencery is implememented in ps!?! ::|
-
It's actually Crystal Way that raises the dead and no, it is not implemented.
-
I'm just explaining that the secretive nature of the guild is what would suggest to others that the guild is inherently evil.
Well, I think the Empire, considering it as an union of the guilds it is currently, has as much secretiveness as any other normal guild (of each category, the Imperial Trades will have economic-related secrets as any other guild of that category, and so on). Maybe with the growth of the Imperial Trades and the foundation of both the Imperial Guard and the Imperial Scholars in-game, people's idea of the Empire's "secretiveness" will change.
-
Every Empire guild has public and non-public parts, this also counts for the Empire as a whole, just look at the Agency.
-
Or better yet, don't look at the Agency. Best to keep your sanity.
And yes, I understand you completely, drah, it's what makes my job so much harder than it should be. But, maybe one day, people will understand that Dark != Evil.
-
It's also funny how people will use dictionary references in an argument... some will aim for one definition... and demand you fit in with that because you used that word and therefore must fit definition number X. --- Another will cover all definitions to try to disprove your reasonable assumptions about them, pointing out that number Z means something completely different.
Wouldn't call it funny and think it was used here how it should be. To proof that it can have several meanings and that you shouldn't just asume one when others could work aswell.
Showing only one definition of the word while infact there are several when quoting a dictionary is infact misleading.
-
Is the dark empire a chaotic guild? The imperialists I meet in game seem unusually civil, and the name Dark Empire, sounds like it would be a chaotic guild.
-EL
-
/me yawns
I can answer this:
Incredible! Where did you guess that the Dark Empire is chaotic? It is as chaotic as the Imperium of Man! The guild threads, structure described the site of the Dark Empire and overall roleplaying of them clearly show. :whistling:
----
Don't feed a dead horse, this discussion was over some time ago.
-
Empire = Chaotic? Thats just funny. I suppose the Outlaws are cival now?
-
AHEM,
Darkness and dark, and more dark, it gives a chaotic ring to it. And no, the outlaws are indeed chaotic. I have a genuine question here, so enough with the sarcasm, because it annoys me. This thread is called Dark empire disscusion, so I figured it was a disscusion about dark empire, thus a perfect place to ask a question like this.
-EL
-
Empire and imperial both are words that imply order. Dark implies dark.
-
The Dark Empire, the name I mean, does give off a bit of an evil feeling.
No, we are not a chaotic guild. Any other questions?
-
An evil feeling, yes, but not chaotic. Those are completely different things.
-
Keep in mind that humans consider Dark something evil because it is something we can't dominate well. 'Fear of the Dark'. You can't see in the dark.
I don't think diabolis would think the same about darkness, neither would krans or klyros. The Dark Empire was founded by a diaboli.
/me yawns
I can answer this:
Incredible! Where did you guess that the Dark Empire is chaotic? It is as chaotic as the Imperium of Man! The guild threads, structure described the site of the Dark Empire and overall roleplaying of them clearly show. :whistling:
----
Don't feed a dead horse, this discussion was over some time ago.
Seems you couldn't quite give him a good answer after all.
This discussion won't be over until everyone has rested their doubts. Earl, thank you for coming around and posting your doubts here. You are completely right. This topic is meant for you to discuss the Dark Empire and your question is as valid as any of those previously posted.
-
Discussions like this should happen in game and in character. Threads such as this one hurt in-game roleplay.
-
Not true, I must say. He was discussing his OOC point of view of the Dark Empire's name, and his perspective about how the name didn't go well with the members. I responded with a fact that might as well please him and other people with the same doubt.
That's not something we should discuss in-game. Since my character wouldn't care if a silly person is afraid of the dark.
-
That's not true, Sangwa is a kind and caring character ingame. He would sure hold your hand if you were afraid of the dark :P
-
I can vouch for that. He does all the time with me, dark or not... I hope Garile doesn't see this. :P
-
Not true, I must say. He was discussing his OOC point of view of the Dark Empire's name, and his perspective about how the name didn't go well with the members. I responded with a fact that might as well please him and other people with the same doubt.
That's not something we should discuss in-game. Since my character wouldn't care if a silly person is afraid of the dark.
What's wrong with trying to get an answer to that particular question IC though? And why do we need to have every question answered? There are some questions that would be better left unanswered rather than getting answers to them outside of the game.
-
*glances at Parallo and smiles*
@zanzibar
There is nothing wrong with asking something about the name of a guild OOC. Specially seeing with a guild as old as the Dark Empire you can easily say it's very likely your character should already know it. Just like you probably heard about Kada or Nilaya even if you have never met and could say your character heard some basic information through rumors.
Also discusions about if diaboli, kran or enkie consider dark the same as humans do not work well IC :P
-
I don't really care that there are other ways to do things. I'm just saying that our way isn't evil. There being a few or even many merchants who aren't greedy doesn't make those who are evil.
So far, by your reckoning, almost every army/armed force is evil because the threaten their members. Pretty much every business is evil because they are greedy. Police forces are also evil...
You know what, let's go with a shorter list. The people who don't fall into evil by your reasoning:
Jesus.
(Then again. According to your tyranny thing. He never did make rules about him not being able to use his powers against everything...so he's a bit on the border there.)
Long list.
Lawful Evil
These characters believe in using society and its laws to benifit themselves. Structure and organization elevate those who deserve to rule as well as provide a clearly defined hierarchy between master and servant. To this end, lawful evil characters support laws and societies that protect their own concerns. If someone is hurt or suffers because of a law that benifits lawful evil characters, too bad. Lawful evil characters obey laws out of fear of punishment. Because they may be forced to honor an unfavorable contract or oath they have made, lawful evil characters are usually very careful about giving their word. Once given, they break their word only if they can find a way to do it legally, within the laws of the society. An iron-fisted tyrant and a devious, greedy merchant are examples of lawful evil beings.
Do I really need to say more?
And personally, I know lots of people who don't threaten others or are overly greedy. Actually, personally I don't really know any people who are doing such things.
Police that just follows its orders is lawful-neutral, no matter whether the orders are "bad" or "good". Nice of you to put words into my mouth, but believe me, I can do that myself.
Just one more thing, during the Cabal era, Dark Empire was openly proclaiming itself to be lawful-evil, though ooc'ly. Still, our relations with ingame people were simply superb. In time most guilds (even the good ones) had no problem with the Empire, sometimes even agreeing to stand side by side. In fact, some people have seen us as protectors. No one organised anything against us whatsoever. Now the thing is, back then role-playing was on a much lower level than it is today. I'm interested in how your argument is exactly supposed to work.
Today there's this general opinion of quite a few Hydlaa people (not only from those who oppose DE)
- Dark Empire members either have ill intentions, or are too naive to see what Dark Empire is about.
- Many people aren't fine with the Dark Empire. Most are too afraid to stand against it.
Alright. Dealing with this...again.
Devious, Greedy merchant. I'd never call Donari that, infact, she tried to raise the price for gold and thus have the miners earn more and her earn less. The rest of Yliakum was against this. Sure, she's out to get tria when she can, but she's only as devious as the position requires and only as greedy as is understandable.
I've yet to see somebody in the Empire be called an "iron-fisted tyrant" so I'll just let that drop.
Next you use adjectives to your benefit "Overly greedy", I don't see overly in your definition of Lawful Evil there, Draklar. So, one can assume you know people who are greedy, seeing as that usualy implies devious (one must be devious to aquire as much as possible) I'm assuming you know some lawful evil people.
Nothing Donari has done has harmed others. She hasn't stolen tria from competition in any form. You're argument here lies solely on the fact that she wants tria...she's a merchant, Draklar, you'll find that many of them do.
Moving on....
I've no idea what you are talking about with the Cabal era. Perhaps you could quote it to refreshen my memory.
And the general opinion.
A thousand people can believe something that is wrong. Doesn't change whether or not it's wrong (Except in the case of language :P)
As for the latter remark, I'm guessing you've run into five or so people and so stated that "Many people" aren't fine. Most are, most don't actually really care one way or the other. The Empire tries to keep to itself for the most part. Recruiting and expanding, as all guilds do at this point.
Overall, Draklar. You're calling the Empire evil, maybe we are a little bit, I doubt it. But you've yet to give IC reasons that are substantial for hating the Empire.
To be blunt, Draklar. You came back to PS (OOCly) and joined the Empire (ICly), on the forums there you had a long dispute over the word brethren (OOCly), from there, me and you had a bit of a fight over personal matters (OOCly), Draklar then left the Empire, seemingly for no reason and started disliking it.
That's a bit iffy RP.
You then created Magnir, Magnir is a new character who hates the Empire for...no reason I can think of. In fact, he's the Empresses son (Or so you say).
So you came back. Didn't like what you saw OOCly and so decided to fight us ICly. That's why I said mediocre at best.
I don't know about the rest of the people who are against the Empire at the moment. I imagine they have some reason to dislike us somewhat. But, there is no reason for the Empire hate that is going on presently. You've still failed to bring up a point that even somewhat justifies it.
-
Hmm. Well Nurahk, you did make a bunch of stuff up about my character in order to remove it from the guild and take over its position. :)
-
I didn't take over it's position. And, at the time your character was destroying the Empire's reputation.
And that's me, not the Dark Empire.
-
I didn't take over it's position. And, at the time your character was destroying the Empire's reputation.
Even if that were true, you're merely saying "The ends justify the means", which gives weight to Draklar's accusations.
And that's me, not the Dark Empire.
That's like saying that the Dark Empire has nothing to do with Sangwa's leadership and style.
-
It is true, Zanzibar.
And one man slighted is not enough to cause a bunch of people who don't know him to rise up against the Empire.
I couldn't care less if you think the Empire is evil, everybody has a different opinion of what evil is. It's just not evil enough to cause such uprisings.
Draklar seems intent on changing the topic, I imagine it's because he knows he's wrong. As for you, Zanzi, you don't really have a character who hates the Empire as far as I've seen, so this doesn't have much to do with you.
Not to sound offensive, of course, this is all around whether or not their reasons for hating the Empire are OOC.
On the note of the "evil Empire", Imperials have stood up for Yliakum more times than most people who claim to be good. Even while these uprisings were going on the Empire was looking into stopping a new threat from harms Yliakum. A threat that I'm quite convinced the Empire could benefit from, if they so chose.
-
As for you, Zanzi, you don't really have a character who hates the Empire as far as I've seen, so this doesn't have much to do with you.
In fact, I've done quite a bit to help the guild. That makes it even more bizarre that you lied to so many people to get me kicked out of it.
-
Right...Zanzibar.
I understand you see an argument and go "Oh looky looky, I should be there."
But, you've contributed nothing to the topic at hand, and to the thread topic only slightly.
I don't care how much you did to help the guild, Zanzi, I personally don't think it was anything notable, you were killing it's reputation and weren't stopping. You had to go.
Lied to so many? I find it intriguing that your respect for 2 or three people is so high that you count them as many.
-
I can't be bothered to argue with you, but it seems now it's not only my Magnir character you criticize. It's not like I consider you an authority on role-playing, but it still annoys me. So to make a short answer:
To be blunt, Draklar. You came back to PS (OOCly) and joined the Empire (ICly), on the forums there you had a long dispute over the word brethren (OOCly), from there, me and you had a bit of a fight over personal matters (OOCly), Draklar then left the Empire, seemingly for no reason and started disliking it.
Draklar's last words on DE boards:
"I do not need your wars or your pride. Most people of Yliakum do not need them... Think about whom you fight for."
After saying this I've been waiting for an answer. Either agreement that violence is not the answer, or scolding of Draklar. Since it was the latter, Draklar left. Simple as that.
I made it clear to Sangwa that I wouldn't leave because of you, not any time soon anyway. The reason why Draklar left was because he didn't like the way DE was managed.
And he's not opposing it in any way. Just mistrusts.
Magnir is the one who opposes Dark Empire, but it's not only DE he opposes. If you want to know why, ask Vexonee about his life story.
-
"The ends justifies the means" is not something used exclusively by those dubbed as "Lawful Evil". In fact, "Chaotic Good" tends to use all means necessary to achieve their "good goals".
And finally a quote that relates to one of the few books about politics that resemble the way things work in reality instead of delving into idealistic utopian views. Now, I think what really matters if one wishes to attempt putting an organization in such shallow "alignment system" are the ends, not the means. In fact the means are usually related with the lawful-chaotic axis. With "the ends justifies the means" as being a characteristic of the "chaotic" alignment.
Now I think that this discussion is slowly drifting towards the ad hominens and criticisms towards each other instead of conclusive answer to dismiss arguments. Things might get heated later on a possible "duel".
Putting it bluntly, as I already said, the Dark Empire isn't Lawful Evil, it is authoritarian and imperialist. Whether such structure will bring just rewards and acknowledgements for those who swear and keep their loyalty and obedience with competence instead of serving to the interests of an elite of wealthy politicians once it becomes a federal government is another history. However the concept of "benevolent dictator" is skewy, and it is a very loaded expression, just like "freedom fighters", only time will tell what the Empire will become, but while we wait, lets not forget that republics and "democracies" are also prone to corruption and might become "evil" governments. I cannot seek more partial conclusions as I am not sure whether the Dark Empire follows a "social body" idea where each individual is a single cell of a greater collective, or if it is somewhere inbetween absolute collectivism and indivualism.
However, any hierarchical system is prone to heavy competition for the higher ranks, and sometimes, ruthlessness will be used by some people to reach them, so incidents related with internal bids for power are to be expected in any organization with strong hierarchies. If this ruthlessness is not detained by internal regulations, it might lead to the eventual slippery slope towards corruption as the most ruthless slowly assume higher ranks as the years pass.
-
"I do not need your wars or your pride. Most people of Yliakum do not need them... Think about whom you fight for."
Alright. I'm giving you about a month to find one war that the Empire started.
How long after our falling out did those words come? And I don't care about Magnir's life story, you created him shortly after our disputes.
You've yet to come up with a decent reason, Draklar. I'll assume it's because you can't.
This discussion has been interesting but, as Raleigh pointed out it is becoming less and less an argument and more a fight.
I stand by my opinion that this is terrible RP. I also still believe this is all done because of you dislike of me, considering the time between our "fight" and the time Draklar left and Magnir came to be.
You've yet to raise any points against either besides, first, saying that Draklar is against Imperial wars (Which...you know...just don't happen) and Imperial pride...Obviously a very lame RP excuse.
As for Magnir, if I hate somebody OOC, and create a character just to piss of there's IC. No matter what story I come up with, it's still terrible RP.
All the same, I'll continue to play along a little more ingame. But, it's getting tiring and there are many more interesting events unfolding that I'd like to participate in.
-
Right...Zanzibar.
I understand you see an argument and go "Oh looky looky, I should be there."
But, you've contributed nothing to the topic at hand, and to the thread topic only slightly.
I don't care how much you did to help the guild, Zanzi, I personally don't think it was anything notable, you were killing it's reputation and weren't stopping. You had to go.
Lied to so many? I find it intriguing that your respect for 2 or three people is so high that you count them as many.
More misdirection and deceit. You already got what you wanted, why carry on with the act?
-
Zanzi. I enjoy politeness and despise rudeness but, this is how old?
In short, shoo...go find some other argument.
-
Haha, okay, I'll bite. I do find it amusing how people can build alternative reality to fill up the gaps :D
Alright. I'm giving you about a month to find one war that the Empire started.
Context, please. Draklar was talking about Hwnae's will to fight Duraza (though in more organised way).
How long after our falling out did those words come?
Honestly, I don't know. But as far as I remember they were carried out shortly after my argument with Hwnae over tactical/strategic matter. Nothing against Hwnae, simple disagreement. But none the less it seemed to me like too much emphasis on open fighting. Not something Draklar would be fine with (though he was, as a lad).
And I don't care about Magnir's life story, you created him shortly after our disputes.
Hmm... I created him after getting annoyed with Enkidukai side of the community (I didn't hide it on the boards). Since then I returned emphasis to Draklar, among other reasons because of how you criticized Magnir and alike characters. No fun in role-playing dispute with people, if those people won't feel okay about this dispute, right? Anyway, Magnir is shaped after my all time favorite character I developed in WFRP, with quite a few changes to fit the PS setting. I actually told Cyl long time ago I might have such intention. It's not a secret the said character was anti-authoritarian and ever so shady. Cyl also knows some details about him (and knew as far as a year back).
Enough of a reason?
-
Err...I don't see your reason.
And this would be the Duraza that attacked our HQ twice, right?
...
If your posts and reasons are going to continue to be so weak, I'm going to go watch tv.
-
*shrug* Draklar wanted case-fire. I don't care whether he was right in asking for it. I'm not Draklar... err.. not the one ingame :p
Have fun with tv o/
-
Yes, context please ...
Hwnae's will to fight back against the same Duraza that was enslaving Imperial Scholars and then attacking our headquarters in order to claim him back. If Draklar considers that evil .. well then Draklar is probably a wee bit messed up in the head or the next Ghandi.
Hwnae is a defender of the Empire .. not an attacker of those who want to be left alone. He is a honourable but ruthless warrior, he won't shy away to answer force with even more force but he will never agree with attacking the defenseless or even just those who aren't looking for any trouble. Not even if his superiors would command it .. which I know they won't :P He has little tolerance for public disobedience as well and his men are treated harshly sometimes but he can also be very rewarding towards those who perform well and in the end he considers his men as an extended family. His sometimes rude words are something he deems necessary to keep the discipline that will make his warriors superior to most others in Yliakum. Towards outsiders who don't show him clear disrespect and hostile attitudes he will never be rude.
You've been pulling Hwnae's motives and quotes out of context quite a bit in these last few discussions.
-
Erm. Draklar doesn't consider Dark Empire evil. He just mistrusts it, that's all. Come to think of it, exactly like Havena used to mistrust the Legendary Warriors.
And evil-calling is a nice myth now. I only refered to Dark Empire as evil on boards, as a player. But somehow it is assumed ICly that Magnir does the same... Despise his friendly relations with some DE members and his avoiding the word "evil", also because it's usually him who is labeled as such.
I don't understand what you mean with the context though. Should it be objective, or subjective considering we're talking about Draklar leaving? In context Draklar knew nothing about any imprisoned Imperialists (and the HQ attacking I never took seriously, as from what I understand, escape from the setting (overpowering) was the case there), nor was he told anything about it. He was just told to keep silent :P
Finally Draklar has (or rather had) different views on the matter than Hwnae did. He did scold people when he needed to, but he never yelled or threatened them. I think neither Hwnae nor Draklar had the supreme knowledge over what should be done, so again, this is not much of a relevant context.
I used the quotes to explain why someone could see DE as evil. I don't know about Sangwa's mind, nor that of Hwnae. I'm just saying how they may be perceived by people (who don't have mind-reading abilities).
But in the end, Aelya also used her whip for discipline. She was never rude to people who didn't deserve it. She could explain herself with these arguments. Yet by her standards she was lawful-evil. Lawful-evil is a very mild sort of wrongdoing. It's the sort of evil that can prosper without people even realising there's anything wrong with it. I encourage anyone to point out any "evil" action performed by the Dark Empire during the Aelya-Aendar-Draklar-Kwartz era. Not much of that and yet DE was widely considered great example of lawful-evil guild. Evil isn't just about mindless murdering.
Hwnae may or may not be evil. But his actions can be perceived as such.
Overall I find the attitude somewhat strange. Why does it trouble you people so much that others perceive you as evil? During medieval times false accusations on this matter were fairly common. And seriously, at least you have something to role-play about. Trying to fight this opinion I mean (but most certainly not through arguing over it on the forums). Neither by trying to talk with those who call you evil. That appears to me awfully silly (maybe offer them some tea and cookies as you continue conversation?). Also keep in mind some of those people are simply criminals trying to avenge their brethren. General public is what you should aim for. If you can work for your good there without raising suspicion, then it should work and people who think ill of DE should disappear with time.
Leading an empire shouldn't be easy. As you grow in power, you'll face problems such as ones you face right now. Did you really expect it'll be solely about earning money, fighting criminals and recruiting members? Do you really want everything to always go as you'd wish it to go? Wouldn't that be a little bit boring?
Though do keep in mind the environment. As an evil guild, Dark Empire was enriching the world. It was something people could fight. What does DE bring into the game nowadays? What's so interesting about it? At least when perceived as evil (mostly by the shady people, irony, and that's what is cool about it) it enriches Planeshift with some action. Imperialists have to defend themselves from growing opposition from the side of the poor. Personally I think it's a shame you discard the idea so easily. Asides that and some fun stuff in Ojaveda, Yliakum is a boring semi-utopia (not according to setting presented ingame though, which is sometimes quite apocalyptic <3 )
-
I won't say anything about how Draklar should act or what makes him tick, it's your character and not mine. But I want to avoid people reading this OOC information and using it IC without justification. That's why I prefer putting things you say about my characters in the proper context. If Draklar is the one to judge without knowing the situation .. that's his full right. I'm just trying to prevent others from following his example. I wish I could trust people here to keep OOC and IC separated but I know that's only a dream.
Now as to our problem with being percieved as evil ... well I've been getting the overall impression that the latest Planeshift trend is "Hate the Empire, they're evil!" A little opposition can make a game more interesting but half of Yliakum suddenly wanting to jump on the bandwagon and pick fights with the Empire is a bit too much and it's starting to create unpleasant gaming experiences. Like it was said already in the other thread, the large majority of these anti-imperials are newly created characters with no good RP reason to hate the Empire. I'm assuming this all started when people heard about the Dark Empire creating a military branch .. many people suddenly heard the words "Guard" or "Military" and the next conclusion they made was "War". There is nothing more annoying for a newly erected heavily roleplaying guild than being jumped on by almost every dueler and power leveler who thinks they can RP.
Also do keep in mind that we're not the ones who brought this whole ordeal onto the forums, we're just the ones tired of being called evil when there is no adequate reason and defending ourselves. I'm also not accusing you for starting it or Draklar for distrusting the Empire. The Empire is fine with enemies, as long as those enemies know how to RP and have their reasons, like Draklar does. Also staying in character and in-game doesn't work against those people who don't take their roleplaying serious and go out of their way to band Yliakum together against the Empire. They began by using OOC, both reasons and communications .. we're simply tired of sticking to the RP standards and are now 'fighting back' with their rules.
Final conclusion: Too many and poorly underbuilt enemies are the cause of our somewhat irritated attitude lately.
People should keep in mind that this is a game and a good hostility between characters is supported by an even better understanding and co-operation between players. I think this is something we should all learn to uphold more, myself included .. so I partially disagree. OOC discussion and communication is rather important in matters like this.
-
I'm just trying to prevent others from following his example.
But through forums? What's wrong with role-playing not-so-perfect characters?
I think we should agree the obvious problem here is you're called "Dark Empire". But the question is how should people of Yliakum react to force with such name. Even today dark is associated with evil. Would you expect people in medieval setting to be more open-minded than those today? It's kind of tricky. As I understand now, you do have your reason for frustration, but there is some basis for people opposing the Empire (even if it is the narrow-mindness). I doubt anything will be solved through arguments on the forums. Those aren't exactly place where opposing opinions often turn into agreement ;) Fueling the matter is much more likely to occur. I think the best thing you can do right now is wait until it all passes. If it's how you describe it, it's probably just a fad.
Anyway, Draklar is actually apolitical (had to straighten things up a bit to fit the Enkidukai setting, rp explanation is kind of complex :P) so not much of an enemy to anyone. Just mistrust.
-
Nothing is wrong with playing not so perfect characters, Hwnae is far from perfect. A lot is wrong with using forum obtained knowledge as in-character knowledge but it always happens so I'd rather have them know my character's good sides along with his negative sides.
The Dark is misleading but it also has a lot of history behind it and I don't think anyone feels good betraying that history by changing the name.
And we'll just have to disagree on the problemsolving role OOC communication has then :P I like to think that some people do see things differently because of these topics .. else I wouldn't be appearing in them.
-
And we'll just have to disagree on the problemsolving role OOC communication has then :P I like to think that some people do see things differently because of these topics .. else I wouldn't be appearing in them.
Fiiiine :P
I'll drop Draklar's mistrust towards the Dark Empire. Maybe it's not much, but always something, right?
RP excuses are as always easy to find *rolls eyes* At least it's done for the good of role-playing environment ;)
-
@Hwnae: The "Sarge that is tough with his troops but considers them as a family" isn't evil. It is just something from the old cliché of "Tough Sarges" that came from many war movies, so Hwnae shares some in common with these typical characters and therefore is cliché. :P
And you should have threatened people with: "Do that again and I'll send you to a manning station in the Stone Labyrinths!" >o)
-
Hwnae is somewhat cliché, I won't deny that .. it's what makes him fun to play.
And I prefer my "You just earned yourself two days of Patrol duty at the Bronze Doors." I could actually send them off for that :P
-
Err, just to make a few things clear.
I know((, OOC and IC,)) who the Empire's enemies are, I'm calling a truce for the next couple days, those who are confirmed enemies have these two days to swear that they will not harm the Empire. You do that, you go free.
The list won't be made public, so don't ask.
If somebody fails to swear an oath of non-aggression for OOC reasons, PM me.
If somebody fails to swear an oath for non-OOC reasons, I'll be taking actions.
Id somebody swears an oath and then breaks it, I'll be taking actions.
In the center case, I'll not act without the approval of the public. This only goes so far, don't expect to get away with only sore wrists. (This is mainly incase I am, though I highly doubt it, wrong.)
In the last case, I don't care what the public thinks. Breaking the oath means attacking the Empire, I'll defend my own and I'll not hesitate to make examples of people.
After the two day truce period, you'll still have a chance to swear the oath.
I believe I am being fair.
Note: If you have recently taken actions against the Empire, swear the oath even if you've decided not to attack. My information is most often correct but, I'd much rather we be sure about this.
Also: Many of you think you are tricking me. You're not. I'm just loathe to spill blood.
And, as a closing statement. If I can not avoid the need to make examples of people...Don't expect to get off easy. It will not be quick. I will be painful.
I'm most displeased that I am brought down to this level, all those who know me know that I try to solve problems in a diplomatic way. This reduces blood spilled and enemies made.
This is not up for public discussion, the only chance of this being changed is by discussion within the Empire.
Again, I'd like to remind the people of Hydlaa that there are rumors of a threat rising up, the rumors may just be there to distract the Empire but, if they are true then we'll need to be united to deal with the threat. I'll be most grateful for any help offered in dispersing the enemies of the Empire.
-
Hopefully you won't be brought down to the level of doing pre-emptive strikes against those who supposedly are threats like the way a certain country does in the name of "democracy"... Of course you won't have access to the "army of freedom fighters fighting against a brutal dictator to free the people of the Middle East blablabla" rhetoric if you decide to do so :P
-
Heh, right.
All pre-emptive strikes will be open to criticism by the public. If people are against it too much, I'll not do it. Public apologies will be a requirement, of course.
-
Just a reminder. Something like the "War On Terror" isn't the kind of thing that make things easy for Public Relations...
Hopefully we'll see things like this happening in Hydlaa Plaza then :devil:
http://la.indymedia.org/uploads/2005/03/march19f.jpg (http://la.indymedia.org/uploads/2005/03/march19f.jpg)
(Just Change Dubya's face for Nurahk's face :P )
Pre-emptive strikes are acts of aggression based on very arguable arguments about what consists on a threat, in fact you can point anything as being a threat, but wealthy guilds or guilds, once owning lands becomes possible, that have strategic resources on their territories, are always interesting targets for imperialist powers. So if the Empire starts doing this as an act of defense, chances are that any guild with significant power or wealth might be a "threat". Following the "attack first, ask later" also won't help to make people avoid claiming the Dark Empire as evil.
-
Hmm, this is only going to go on for maybe a week (depending on the activity of the enemies) and there will be, unless the Empire is attacked, absolutely no bloodshed.
If all goes well, there will be a few oaths sworn in private, hostilities will cease, and everybody will move one.
Worst case scenario is the Empire being attacked, in which case, who can really blame us for the bloodshed?
And, the most probably scenario will consist of the former with a few public apologies.
All in all, the most peaceful way of concluding this most unfortunate business.
I am the only person in control of who is declared a "threat", along with, of course, Sangwa and Natrina's counsel should she chose to give it, at the moment it is those who have planned to attack the Empire physically, and, only in extreme cases, spread rumors about the Empire.
I realize that some of my intel may be somewhat less than fully correct, therefore, unless there is no doubt, nobody will be harmed.
-
*Goes back to the PS Forums, hugs Karyuu and bows deeply over and over again apologizing for his absence.*
Raleigh's rhetoric would be marvelous, if his infinite attempts didn't make it funny.
Judging how we've managed our opposition in the past, I don't believe Nurahk had to even spend his time writing the previous post. Our confrontations have been quiet up until now.
EDIT:
Just to add that everyone's prone to suspicion.
-
*Goes back to the PS Forums, hugs Karyuu and bows deeply over and over again apologizing for his absence.*
Raleigh's rhetoric would be marvelous, if his infinite attempts didn't make it funny.
EDIT:
Just to add that everyone's prone to suspicion.
If you mean with the last thing you wrote, that everyone is prone to suspicion of being a threat to the Dark Empire, then this will definitively start like a counter witch-hunt(counter because the first one was against imperialists because they are "evil"). But I wouldn't recommend this line of action, as it would only create an atmosphere of extreme fear. This "everyone's prone to suspicion" also made me remind of Soviet Union where "everyone's prone to suspicion of being a threat to the Communist Party", and you know what kind of implication such affirmation brings, if it was intended to be IC. Of course if that is not what you meant about what kind of suspicion you were referring to, then forget this.
And regarding "infinite" attempts rhetoric, all this defense of the Dark Empire, all the PR stuff both IC and OOC and all the subsequent messages are parts of an "infinite" rhetoric attempt to remove the association of it with "evil", aren't they? But I won't say they are funny, I am not big into indirect ad hominens, Over.
-
All guilds promote themselves. At least all the successful ones. We are entitled to that, just as you are entitled to your opinion. However it's easily agreeable that we'd rather listen to dynamic sentences of promotion, that include facts and promises, than rantings of suspicion and hypothetical threats. It certainly adds to my point the fact that your hypothesis about our behavior have been proved wrong up until now, while our promises have turned into reward.
I'm not trying to shut you up. Dear lord, no. Just giving my opinion on your opinions.
Anyway, you obviously didn't grasp the meaning of the last sentence in my post. In fact, you interpreted it like I knew you would, considering your approach on everything related to the Dark Empire.
What I meant is that the suspicions you have on the Empire are able to be spoken towards most organizations. I do understand your focus though, it's not like any other has had half of our success and exposure.
-
The general fact of the matter is people inclined to fight against big powerful organisations because it is seen as a threat to their individuality. And in Planeshift the biggest and most powerful is the Dark Empire.
-
Feline Prince, can you explain to me how a big and powerful organisation is a threat to ones individuality? Or even better .. how fighting against such an organisation would make it less threatening?
-
Well eventually that organisation will become so big that it is all encompassing. Therefore anyone fighting it is considered a rebel. For your second question... If something is a threat you fight it to get rid of that threat.
-
@Sangwa: It's not like most guilds have survived for more than 5 years, so this is something that comes naturally for those who persist and work their way through the years. And finally, if my intention was to simply rant, I would have lowered my tone to the level that is only one step above a flame. Also you might not see it, but for me this "promotion" and defensive discourse is getting as or perhaps more repetitive than the accusations people make about the DE. So lets leave at that and depart to other areas of interest.
And @Feline Prince, don't forget there is a strong government in Yliakum, so it's not quite as simple to "take control of society" as you would expect. Remember also that the population of Yliakum in the Settings would be much more than the average 200 - 300 characters online in PS, that I can guess that are less than 0,1% of the whole population. So, all in all, there is no guild that could really pose a threat there right now. Except if there is some kind of cabal (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cabal) somewhere, because such activities never require huge amounts of people to suceed, but instead they require power, wealth, influence and the most important of all, secrecy.
-
So, all in all, there is no guild that could really pose a threat there right now. Except if there is some kind of cabal (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cabal) somewhere, because such activities never require huge amounts of people to suceed, but instead they require power, wealth, influence and the most important of all, secrecy.
Secrecy is important, but don't forget charisma, audacity, and a common sense of purpose.
-
The Empire is hardly all encompassing ... I'm certain that there are guilds who have more than the double amount of members than all Imperial Guilds combined. The Empire's strength lies in the dedication if it's men and women and it's organised leadership. People should be seeing it as an example instead of a threat.
And when something is a potential threat .. it's often smarter not to draw it's attention so that it becomes a very real threat by your own actions.
-
Hence what Nurahk said. They have drawn attention and been threatened with a fight back.
-
Now you're just mixing things up :P
To fight back .. one has to be attacked first.
-
I meant verbally.
-
I don't use swords to fight back against those who attacked me with words.
-
YOU don't.
-
YOU don't.
Nor should he, or anyone.
-
Feline Prince is correct in stating that people may see an organization as a threat, perhaps not so much to individuality but, to freedom and equality. Not so far off.
Much like a monopoly if you will.
He is also correct is assuming people would fight back, the Empire has been attacked both Verbally and Physically and, unlike what most people seem to believe, this has been going on for months. It's probably more a permanent thing than anything else.
I don't expect to defeat it completely, just render it insignificant until the next time it comes along.
I was half hoping that my taking a break would help but, if anything, it just gave the threats false hope and so they slipped out of their secrecy, so far, only to be beaten.
To make things clear: The Empire has been fighting this for a while, it's been winning the whole time. I'm just getting tired of it.
-
Which is the first step towards being defeated. Most interesting thing would be to wage war against the lot of them. Woo! Not exactly your style though?
-
I don't like bloodshed, actualy. So no, not my style.
-
What is your style then?
In the practical art of war, the best thing of all is to take the enemy's country whole and intact; to shatter and destroy it is not so good. So, too, it is better to recapture an army entire than to destroy it, to capture a regiment, a detachment or a company entire than to destroy them.
Hence to fight and conquer in all your battles is not supreme excellence; supreme excellence consists in breaking the enemy's resistance without fighting.
Pretty impressive, no? But it's not so easy to achieve as it is to write about. :P
-
My style?
I don't know. Vexonee might :P
-
Problem with a game like this is that there is no winning or defeating in wars. People die, people go through the death realm and people pop back up to carry on fighting. Nothing to be conquered, nothing to be won or lost ... just endless fighting until one side gets tired of it. If you consider getting tired of the fighting being defeated ... well I guess I can't change that but I find it a pretty lame definition of the concept. That way wars are reduced to whoever has the most time and likes repetetiveness.
I think the Empire, especially Nurahk, is just tired of the repetetiveness of a threat that cannot truly be defeated. Even should the players adhere to roleplaying rules and give up fighting once defeated .. I've known situations where they'd go as far as creating a new character to start fighting the same enemy all over again.
And Sun Tzu is the only style that matters :P
-
but for me this "promotion" and defensive discourse is getting as or perhaps more repetitive than the accusations people make about the DE. So lets leave at that and depart to other areas of interest.
That is both subjective and seemingly unfounded.
I don't use swords to fight back against those who attacked me with words.
Wait. Does the Dark Empire do that? As far as I know all our armed actions have been against armed aggression and affirmed opposition (like recruitment of forces with the intent of overthrowing the Empire).
You also fail to give credit to the fact that we've lasted 5 years. That's an impressive, unique feat and it certainly only adds to a positive judgment. It's hardly right to use it as an excuse of why we are superior.
You can find people that up until now have been quite adversed to our quiet way of dealing with the Empire's security. Some people want us fierce. Others want us peaceful. We're smarter than both and choose to be away from extremes.
EDIT: Taking advantage of this topic, I'd also like to announce that the Empire will be suffering some subtle, but important, changes in the future. Things which haven't (but should have) been discussed here like Diplomacy and Internal Politics will be made clearer, as well as some other modifications that shall assure an easier access and understanding of how the Empire works. I'll tag these changes with the Soon (TM).
-
Due to immense boredom with the whole affair, I've decided to drop the oath swearing plan.
As Sangwa mentioned the Empire will be suffering more changes (As...always :P). And, those that threaten the Empire have quieted down.
Hopefully, with the Empire drawing back from this those on the opposing side will follow suit.
There have been organized groups of people, I know that. The next one that pops up will be dealt with reasonably at first, but harshly soon after.
Thank you, I hope that the Empire's name stops appearing in every second thread now :P
And, for those who weren't concerned with this whole event, sorry for the confusion and test of patience.