PlaneShift
Gameplay => General Discussion => Topic started by: Xillix Queen of Fools on November 23, 2007, 05:34:19 pm
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I am hereby requesting both new and old players contribute ideas for how PlaneShift can do more to aid the retention of new players. Once several ideas are forwarded I will take them and put them into a poll to see which options are favored and do what i can to either implement or have implemented the features that the community and devs think might help most.
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Make sure they know what they are getting into right at the start.
Not necessarily in the tutorial (That will most likely get skipped over) but somewhere before they actually get into the game. The first time logging into an account for instance.
They should know it's all about RolePlay.
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They should know it's all about RolePlay.
I second that.
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The tutorial CANNOT be skipped. Next!
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That wasn't being suggested.
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By skipped over I meant read over. Players will likely just be looking for how to move on in the quests and will skip over most of the text.
Sorry for the confusion.
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The Death Realm still seems to discourage many newbies. (When I started, it made me quit for a few weeks.)
So how about letting the first ... lets say... 3 deaths resulting into a respawn rather than ending up in the Death
Realm? Combined with a warning "Next time, you'll be in deep excrement."
Best,
Minks
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Many newcomers don't really know where to find the information they need. True, most of it is there already but they are sort of frozen. Many don't know how to use /tells and other useful commands and won't think of going to the help window and maybe there should be a pop-up that summarizes what the tabs and menu buttons are. Something harder to miss. Especially regarding petitions, help, shortcuts, options and the help tab.
Also, the progression system is kind of complex for a newcomer and they won't experience it in the tutorial (afaik), so maybe the first time they access the Stats and Skills window or try /train on an NPC they could get another pop-up with a clear explanation of how it works.
And of course, something about the possibility to edit their descriptions and write something unique about their character. The sooner they do this, the better.
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Well, when we have all of these random spawn points...when they get out of the tutorial, it pretty much leaves them saying "What do I do now?"
There needs to be more...flow, help them get started, give them a little more advice on how to roleplay with NPC's near the starting area saying "hi" to them and other such things so that they would use what they learned in the tutorial to try and talk with that NPC.
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The Death Realm still seems to discourage many newbies. (When I started, it made me quit for a few weeks.)
So how about letting the first ... lets say... 3 deaths resulting into a respawn rather than ending up in the Death
Realm? Combined with a warning "Next time, you'll be in deep excrement."
Best,
Minks
That seems like a good idea to me. But some may get the idea that if you die there is no consequence. So why not apply the 'curse of the death realm' to them when they respawn, but without going to the death realm. They could always crawl to the nearest tavern and rave there until their stats go back up.
Oh, this is probably going to be redundant, but having separate help channels. Where newbs can voice their questions and like the help channel, volunteers man it OR another possibility players can lend a voice or too. This would be out of character of course. I know there is a newbie section on the forum, but if your computer is like mine...running your web browser and the client can really...tie it into knots. It would also help with the issues of people re-posting questions that have already been answered.
But I have to say it: everyone who has been playing for awhile, should create a new character and RP being new. Nothing gives you more insight than this. I know when I first started I had no idea where i was. Questions were running through my head, "where am I, what do i do to get in-game money, how do I find those sewers that the forum was talking about...THERE"S NO ONE AROUND TO ASK!" But probably more important, how do you role play? Sure the tutorial gives you some idea, but it's like being told how to swim, then tossed into the deep end. You may be treading water, but how DO you start to swim?
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Tough one.. it's been a long time since i started, but i remember my first issues were with finding trainers and places. Not entirely sure how possible it is to code something that would show new players around?
Next is it possible to have everyone start with at least level 1 in a weapons skill and the relevant weapon in their inventory? On the same theme a basic skill in mining would be a good start too.
Finally.... I agree the tutorial can be a great tool for starting players off, but could it be made to run off server, client side? The frustrating crashes or npc inactivity (i know they're rare at the moment, but still sometimes....) could be avoided and the tutorial run seamlessly before launching the new player into the "real world" we all know and love.
*Edit* The resurection of the "Helpers of Yliakum" guild :). They were fantastic at getting me started in game. Once they got me going, i learned about roleplay and made my game time much more fun. I miss them so... :(
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By skipped over I meant read over. Players will likely just be looking for how to move on in the quests and will skip over most of the text.
I agree there. I went through the tutorial and if your a new your most likely going to understand what you have to say everytime someone speaks without really reading what they say. The tutorial is great but only if they take the time to read it. Maybe to keep them focused a bit try making them have to respond in different ways (like when you start getting asked questions by the kylros in the tutorial's end). Possibly have them answer questions that may help them form their own characters. For example when talking to the dwarf that teaches you about smithing she might ask:
"Do you think you might like to become a crafter?"
or
"Do you see crafting as a skill your character will want to learn?"
Asking questions like that between the information to break it up into small sections might help someone keep focused and actually read the tutorial through.
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In regards to Suno's suggestion, perhaps instead of how the tutorial ends it could ends with a suggestion to look up a specific npc such as Harnquist for the Hydlaa bound or Brado for the enkis. You could then build in responses to frequently asked questions to these characters.
Also having Character Points left unexpended in creation might allow you to get into the training method in the tutorial as it could translate into progression points to spend. New characters could be told that any one of the tutorial npcs will train one of their zero level skills for free.
As for the death realm goes you could have them spawn in the DR the first couple times give them 30 seconds or so to look around and then receive <insert gods name here>'s mercy respawn them in Yliakum with appropriate messages indicating this will not last.
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Just thought of this...perhaps an 'information' NPC? Similar to what bilbous suggested for Harn or Brado, but not related to any other task?
and at the end of the tutorial, make a statement saying, if you have any questions regarding the game, feel free to ask X, which can be found at Y. So now they only have to ask, if they don't know, where Y is. which is a neutral ground for issues with RP-ing.
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Helping newbies get together is another idea. I remember when i first started, i found several newbies like myself and it made figuring everything out a lot less frustrating. When we were totally stumped, several veteran players helped us, but a lot of the learning we figured out ourselves. Being by yourself in Yliakum as a newbie is rather frightening :D
Im not sure how this could be incorperated game-wise but maybe not have unique instances for newbies in the tutorial. That way they have the opportunity to make friends before entering the actual game world. Then maybe an NPC can add a line about /tells and group so they know how to find each other upon leaving the tutorial..
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Helping newbies get together is another idea. I remember when i first started, i found several newbies like myself and it made figuring everything out a lot less frustrating. When we were totally stumped, several veteran players helped us, but a lot of the learning we figured out ourselves. Being by yourself in Yliakum as a newbie is rather frightening :D
Im not sure how this could be incorperated game-wise but maybe not have unique instances for newbies in the tutorial. That way they have the opportunity to make friends before entering the actual game world. Then maybe an NPC can add a line about /tells and group so they know how to find each other upon leaving the tutorial..
oooo like being automatically placed in a newbie guild? that would be fun. then we could get lost together! YEY!
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The thing I found worst as a newbie were the NPC dialogs. I really needed to get adjusted to their restricted vocabulary. I don't think they have been changed very much since then. This has been an option in some of the previous polls (http://hydlaa.com/smf/index.php?topic=30659.0), but I think it may have gone too unnoticed because it probably were the more experience people voting for newer things for them to do (i.e. crafting). Has anyone taken the side of the new users in that poll? Just a suggestion.
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I don't think they have been changed very much since then.
Then help me out.
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Helping newbies get together is another idea. I remember when i first started, i found several newbies like myself and it made figuring everything out a lot less frustrating. When we were totally stumped, several veteran players helped us, but a lot of the learning we figured out ourselves. Being by yourself in Yliakum as a newbie is rather frightening :D
Im not sure how this could be incorperated game-wise but maybe not have unique instances for newbies in the tutorial. That way they have the opportunity to make friends before entering the actual game world. Then maybe an NPC can add a line about /tells and group so they know how to find each other upon leaving the tutorial..
Lol, like an Immigrators Receiver Comitee XDDD
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I don't think they have been changed very much since then.
Then help me out.
I didn't mean it like that.
Lyoven moves sideways uneasily: "One should always mind one's words in public but I'm only a simple miner and not a town crier."
Certainly, lot's of changes have been made to the NPC's but not of that kind that would make this go away. Sorry. No I know why they used multiple choice responses in Neverwinter Nights.
In a way by saying this I thought I already was helping you out ... a bit ... no? ... not at all? :-[
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I don't think they have been changed very much since then.
Then help me out.
I didn't mean it like that.
Lyoven moves sideways uneasily: "One should always mind one's words in public but I'm only a simple miner and not a town crier."
Certainly, lot's of changes have been made to the NPC's but not of that kind that would make this go away. Sorry. No I know why they used multiple choice responses in Neverwinter Nights.
In a way by saying this I thought I already was helping you out ... a bit ... no? ... not at all? :-[
I'll have to agree here. Some of the quests are obvious for triggers, others aren't. I supppose if you've created teh quest it should be obvious, but somedays it's not.
perhaps include a section of common quest triggers on the forum? that way people aren't guessing how they should get to the next step of the quest. And that way, those that develop the quests could have a common ground to go from.
does that help?
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The NPCs should give valuable information about the current location when they get asked
"Where am I" / "What is this place" and the like.
Also they should probably have information about other NPCs' whereabouts.
"Where can I find >name<" / "Where is >name<" and so on.
These might be frequently asked questions, and I think they deserve an answer. Maybe not too detailed, and not everyone would know everyone. If I ask for a certain NPC which is located in hydlaa, none or almost none in Oja should know him. But Yonda should know Edrich, for example. I can imagine that would be a whole lot of work, but I see new players very much benefiting from that. Them, and Bilbous. :P
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Make sure they know what they are getting into right at the start.
Not necessarily in the tutorial (That will most likely get skipped over) but somewhere before they actually get into the game. The first time logging into an account for instance.
They should know it's all about RolePlay.
I agree with Waylander.
The problem with newbies (Being one myself at one point and now coming back after a long break feeling like one again :P ) is that they want the answers now. Not tomorrow or five hours from now, but right now! They are excited to play and come into it thinking it is like any other online game. When they find out that it isn't this way they tend to freak out and leave the community without ever giving the game a real chance. Basically they need a guide that breaks down the most important rules of planeshift in a ten minute read. If they want to learn more, ALL imformation should be at the end of the guide for reference. This guide will also tell them that planeshift is roleplay based and they will find it easier to have help in game if they respect the players RP in game.
Problem now is there are way to many area's to look into to find the info in planeshift. It can be quite overwhelming to a new player. Someone posts in the forums that they can't find or do something and everyone on the forums freaks out on them for not looking harder rather then just pointing the way in a nice polite manner. (That concerns me and makes me feel like this community is leaving a bad impression) I think organization is the key to this problem.
[ Sorry I am at work so I can't finish off my thoughts until later tonight. :/ I will post what I mean more in depth unless you all get my general idea.]
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I was actually pretty impressed with the tutorial, and even though it's a bit heavy on the dialog (and I agree that most newbies probably just skim the information) I think that most of the introduction to RP actually comes from interacting with the NPCs in the tutorial area. With each of the NPCs having a different personality and acting out various little habits and quirks, it seems to me that this is probably the start of learning RP by example so, cursory look or not, I'd like to think new players are still learning a little something about RP. In short, I'm all for the NPCs being even more interactive and conversational like Duraza suggested.
Like Bilbous mentioned, I think telling the player to find a certain well-established NPC once they arrive in Yliakum would give them at least a sense of direction and hopefully lead them to people that can actually answer questions they may have about the game. In fact, I'd even be for taking this idea one step further and giving the character a quest to find this NPC, something simple like delivering a letter once they are sent to Yliakum. If an "information" NPC was added like Liadan thought up, I can see it being a nice way to ease a new person into what they need to do in Yliakum but, even if you just sent them to Harnquist or Brado, hopefully they'd at least be able to get some of the more simple quests and be around "real" people that can actually interact with them.
Also, I think Anumesa was dead-on suggesting that the new tutorial should not just be a unique instance for people. Planeshift is a game that very much requires a person to rely on the other players around them... why not get them started early? It also could potentially cut down on people having problems with the tutorial quests, if one person is pulling the ore out before it turns to dust and can't figure out why it's not working, there may just be another newbie that has already figured out that part and tells them that they only need to let it "cook" a little bit longer.
Finally, it's a tough thing to try and tell someone how to RP, I spent my first month or two in game not really having any idea how to RP but just making sure to learn the difference between IC and OOC so people wouldn't yell at me. :P Personally I think all the RP guides in the world can only go so far, RP is one of those skills that is learned by example (hopefully good ones) and cultivation of this skill requires a bit of patience on the end of more established players. While I can't entirely blame someone for ignoring a "n00b" that is running around spamming "plz giv me stuff!," particularly if people are in the middle of a pretty serious RP, but I think that sometimes PS can be a bit elitist and needlessly "clique-y." In my mind a big step to retaining new players would actually start with the attitude of the current players... While I'll admit some new players just aren't cut out for PS (lack the patience for an alpha-game, don't care for RP, etc.) I'd like to think that there are more than a few that just need a little direction and patience to develop into the type of players this game project needs. So basically... Be nice to newbies! (Disclaimer: Not saying everyone is like this or even claiming that I haven't brushed off the occasional new player just because I wasn't in the mood. This was not intended to blame anyone just bring up something I've noticed from time to time that, like all things, could probably be improved upon.)
Edit: Now that I think of it... that "information" NPC would be kind of like Xillix back in the Vesper days where a player could just point a newcomer over to The Temple and say "Look for Xillix, she'll help you you... Just follow the jingling bells and pipe smoke." So, I change my vote to handcuffing Xillix to his computer 24/7 to teach all the newbies again about Yliakum history and how to RP. :P
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perhaps include a section of common quest triggers on the forum?
There is one. Someone link the quests section of the newbie guide please?
The NPCs should give valuable information about the current location when they get asked
"Where am I" / "What is this place" and the like.
They do. I had coded this previously months ago but it wasn't until someone submitted a top ten for someone to me that a bug was exposed and has been subsequently fixed. If they don't, by all means feel free to pm me some logs and I'll fix it.
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http://hydlaa.com/smf/index.php?topic=29976.0
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The NPCs should give valuable information about the current location when they get asked
"Where am I" / "What is this place" and the like.
They do. I had coded this previously months ago but it wasn't until someone submitted a top ten for someone to me that a bug was exposed and has been subsequently fixed. If they don't, by all means feel free to pm me some logs and I'll fix it.
My bad, tried with a few NPCs in Hydlaa and they do indeed. It could be a little more detailed at times, but that's probably wishful thinking. However, I tried asking about my location when I was in BD a few days ago, and they didn't get my question (nor had they ever heard of Hydlaa :P), so I thought that none of the NPCs would..
On another note, the idea about bracketing the keywords one could ask about is not to be considered, I guess? Would that make it too easy?
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However, I tried asking about my location when I was in BD a few days ago, and they didn't get my question (nor had they ever heard of Hydlaa), so I thought that none of the NPCs would..
Yes, we're aware that the EBD inhabitants are more limited compared to the ones in Ojaveda and Hydlaa. Honest, eventually they'll all know these things but it takes time.
And yes, highlighted keywords has been discussed and dismissed as too easy. Sorry.
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Everytime I have the time, I give newbies tours. But it is difficult, sometimes. I think there should be three things that are really needed.
1. Explain PP and how to train somewhere. All the newbies want to become a wizard. Great. They don't comprehend they must kill 40 clackers with a sword to train magic first, however. Also, they should be shown some monsters that are good for noobs to kill, and actually give enough pp. Rats don't give enough.
2. All guildless people logged in less than, say, 20 hours, should automatically be enrolled in a 'Newbie Guild.' There, newbies can help each other out, and volunteers can answer tough questions. It's easier to figure something out with 20 other people in the same situation. I don't know how this can be implemented, as people must be erased from the guild when they log out, or else it gets too big.
I like the help window for newbies idea, but it will always be flashing if on the communication bar. This is why a seperate guild might work. And we could also identify newbies on sight by the guild tag.
3. Enkis spawn in Hydlaa for first three deaths. It sucks to be in Ojaveda as a newbie. Nothing to do, no easy monsters besides worthless rats, impossible to go anywhere without getting very lost...
Everytime I go to Oja, I end up leading 3 newbies back to Hydlaa. I often lose one somewhere on the way.
Oh, and Jeraphon, if I ever catch you online, I'll give you some things for npcs to say. I don't remember many now, but everytime I chat with one, I find something. For example, Brado complains aout rogues hurting his buisness, but when I ask about the rogues he doesn't understand. I don't remember the exact wording I used.
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You have more than 10 posts, hence you can send Jeraphon a detailed PM. Likely much more detailed, than you could do in a chat, but no offense if you have an uber memory :P
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2. All guildless people logged in less than, say, 20 hours, should automatically be enrolled in a 'Newbie Guild.' There, newbies can help each other out, and volunteers can answer tough questions. It's easier to figure something out with 20 other people in the same situation. I don't know how this can be implemented, as people must be erased from the guild when they log out, or else it gets too big.
I like the help window for newbies idea, but it will always be flashing if on the communication bar. This is why a seperate guild might work. And we could also identify newbies on sight by the guild tag.
A) would it be possible to make a tab closable? Ie a little x that can be clicked if it gets too annoying.
B) how could you tell the difference between a completely new player and a new character? You really don't want to end up with new characters from old players in the newbie guild.
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I don't think there really would be any workable way to tell whether a person is truly a new person or just a new character created by a longtime player.
I am pretty much whole-heartedly against the mandatory newbie guild idea, it would drive me insane having to be auto-placed in a newbie group whenever the mood strikes me to try out a new character type or I just need to make a roll character for some small part in an RP story line.
I also don't see how having a bunch of people that arguably will all have the same questions and none of the answers will really make it easier for a person to assimilate to PS, if anything it may only encourage a separation between new players and older players and reinforce poor RP habits due to the new players essentially leading the new players.
I am all for making it easier to figure PS out but, I think that this idea would have more drawbacks than gains.
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Every character should do the tutorial INCLUDING... those who didn't because they existed before hand.
Why?: Because there are a lot of '1337 pwnz0rz' who need re-educating in the fact that this is a RP game.
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Tutorial: Yes.
Even if you have to do it a few times for a few characters it really only takes 10 or 15 minutes if you already know what you are doing.
Mandatory Newbie Guild: No.
Pretty much for the reasons in my last post.
I actually like the tutorial, even if it can feel a bit long-winded at times, it at least covers a lot of good information in a pretty entertaining way. :thumbup:
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An open access school or college where new folks can be pointed to ingame to continue the teaching started in the tutorial, with low level trainers. IC teaching jobs for players there, where actual tria can be earned. A 'Welcome to [This city]' visitor's center in every large town, with a map of the city on the wall, names and jobs of some NPCs, and history of the city.
Discuss.
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In Last Chaos there is a Guardian System. Between level 0 and level 20 you have the chance to apply to another person who made himself available as Guardian. Not quite sure how that works, since although I had a Guardian, that dude never helped me with anything. :P
But maybe PS could have something similar, but actually working. Kinda like the Adopt-A-Newbie (http://hydlaa.com/smf/index.php?topic=26423.0) thingie, but supported by the game itself somehow. Not sure if or how it would be possible for such a feature to be IC though. After all, the newbies want mostly have the game mechanics explained.
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I am pretty much whole-heartedly against the mandatory newbie guild idea, it would drive me insane having to be auto-placed in a newbie group whenever the mood strikes me to try out a new character type or I just need to make a roll character for some small part in an RP story line.
I also don't see how having a bunch of people that arguably will all have the same questions and none of the answers will really make it easier for a person to assimilate to PS, if anything it may only encourage a separation between new players and older players and reinforce poor RP habits due to the new players essentially leading the new players.
Who said alts couldn't leave the guild? Also, a few players might moniter the newbie tab on a volunteer basis. I have found that in a group of 5 newbies, one usually has the answer to a question (This road leads to Ojaveda. The cat city? Right! good job, newbie.) The really tough ones can be answered by those volunteers.
The other main options, the tutorial and the 'Adopt-A-Newbie' combinations aren't enough. The tutorial just doesn't cover transportation and training, and those would be difficult to impliment. A free crude map of the world handed out in the tutorial might help. But in the end, someone has to ferry newbies accross the world and help them gain pp. I like the guild for the simple reasons that newbies can be identified, and they can answer some of their own questions. Like someone said earlier in the topic, it is easier to cope with several newbies in the same boat as you. Now I must go. Someone, somewhere, is wondering why they must kill with a dagger to earn enough pp to train magic. And when they get a flying bat that takes them everywhere. And how come the hard monsters are guarding the gold. And how to get to the cat city. And...
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Yeah, still not a fan of the idea but, it did give me a thought that could perhaps be a sort of "happy medium..."
Why not just tweak the already existing help tab so it includes a more public, newbie friendly interface? If the newbie guild would at least partially rely on veteran player volunteers anyway, why not just make the questions asked in the help channel visible by all? That way, even if a newer person doesn't ask a question they can at least learn from other people's common questions. Basically it would be like the guild idea but, not mandatory and would even give a place for more established players to ask questions (we have them from time to time too you know ;)).
The only thing I'd be worried about is that it could potentially be misused as a type of global chat but, if you used the same type of system that something like the auction channel already uses, I don't see that being a problem... though I guess the problem arises that a new person could get lost and not be in range... I'm sure there can be some sort of creative workaround to both of these problems, even if I can't think of one at the moment.
Basically what I'm thinking is instead of creating a new feature, why not use one we already have and just make it more informal? If anyone can ask/answer a question, at the very least it would get rid of the "No advisers seem to be available at the moment" type message and maybe will encourage people to help new players without creating a closed off insular groups of "newbies" vs. "oldbies." Think of it as an extension of the "Newbie Help" section of the forums where a person can hopefully just pick up a lot of necessary information just by hanging around and checking out other people's questions.
I know there are a lot of things that a feature like this would require figuring out and it is just a suggestion but, I can't help but feeling that improving the help channel in some way or another will help new players out immensely.
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A good way to learn training, is to train. Let the newbie train a stat by one level for free, give them enough PP and tria to train any stat by one level. Then take back the tria and PP, kind of like the other "quests" in the noob pen. edit...forgot to add a little background to this. As a noob, I played for a weak without training anything, assuming that I was getting stronger, because I was battling, and I didn't know any better.
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The problem with this is: How do you know how much pp to give. What if osmeone has lvl 5 daggers, and tries to train that. That would require 30 pp, about, and many trias. I like the idea of training one skill for free, but that can be exploited somewhat.
Also, @ Marq, the problem I have with the help tab is that it would always be flashing. Have you ever had a lot of annoying auctions going off, so you keep clicking the auction button to stop the flash? Imagine that, all the time. Perhaps a way to toggle the flash might help.
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I am pretty much whole-heartedly against the mandatory newbie guild idea, it would drive me insane having to be auto-placed in a newbie group whenever the mood strikes me to try out a new character type or I just need to make a roll character for some small part in an RP story line.
I also don't see how having a bunch of people that arguably will all have the same questions and none of the answers will really make it easier for a person to assimilate to PS, if anything it may only encourage a separation between new players and older players and reinforce poor RP habits due to the new players essentially leading the new players.
Who said alts couldn't leave the guild? Also, a few players might moniter the newbie tab on a volunteer basis. I have found that in a group of 5 newbies, one usually has the answer to a question (This road leads to Ojaveda. The cat city? Right! good job, newbie.) The really tough ones can be answered by those volunteers.
The other main options, the tutorial and the 'Adopt-A-Newbie' combinations aren't enough. The tutorial just doesn't cover transportation and training, and those would be difficult to impliment. A free crude map of the world handed out in the tutorial might help. But in the end, someone has to ferry newbies accross the world and help them gain pp. I like the guild for the simple reasons that newbies can be identified, and they can answer some of their own questions. Like someone said earlier in the topic, it is easier to cope with several newbies in the same boat as you. Now I must go. Someone, somewhere, is wondering why they must kill with a dagger to earn enough pp to train magic. And when they get a flying bat that takes them everywhere. And how come the hard monsters are guarding the gold. And how to get to the cat city. And...
I really think that this idea has some merit. If you automatically place newbies in a guild (that they can leave if they choose) it would encourage them to communicate and help each other out. Additionally, if a few veteran players could somehow monitor the guild chat, it would provide direction when needed.
As a new player, I still have lots of questions. Simple things like where do I get leather gloves can be very frustrating. My guild has been great at helping me. But if I would not have them, the game would have been incredibly frustrating.
I really don't think that you would need to worry about it being abused for communication by veteran players. Afterall, ultimately people will want to leave the newbie build for a regular guild or to go off on their own.
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/me stares at the previous posts in disbelief....
If you're going to use someone's idea...at least accredit it to that person, by some sort of reference (ie so-and-so suggested...)
/me coughs
I think we have to keep in mind that every new player will have a different strategy of how to get around the game. Some decide to go for a guild ASAP. Others decide to be independent, or won't because their particular char wouldn't. That is why I strongly lean towards a channel where everyone can see everyone else's questions...without repeating one you just answered.
A few of the posts have strongly opposed the newbie-guild. Think of it like walking into highschool, a frosh, and everyone knows it. This could lead to the mischevious few creating havoc for new players. As well, if the guild happens to be over 10 characters, they will not work well together anymore. Call it from experience.
I call for a compromise!
So, why not a group? They're temporary, and you can leave and join accordingly. and those cute little speech bubbles give a general idea of where everyone is. Although I suggest the group leader be someone who has some experience under their belt, and is willing to take the group of say, oh, 5 to 6 people, to the VIP of the map. Ie sewers, dungeons, Eagle, Oja, gold mine, iron mine, coal mine....
What do you think?
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Liadan, you sure you want the blame, ur... "credit" for that idea. :P
Serqfeht, I actually saw the blinking tab issue as one of the easiest to solve, just make it a sort of subscribed channel. It could be on when a person leaves the tutorial section but have a feature where you can essentially turn that channel off if a person so desires. Then if a player wants to log into the help channel again, they could just click the tab and something like "would you like to join the help channel" could appear and they just choose yes or no. This way if anyone (new or old) has a question they can log in and ask, newer players will be able to at least see the channel as default when they start out (and older players with new characters can turn it off) and finally if more veteran players are experiencing a lull in RPing or are just in a helpful mood, they could join the help channel and hopefully answer a few questions.
Believe me, the last think I want is another flashing tab... flashing tabs are the ban of my existence. ;)
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Liadan, you sure you want the blame, ur... "credit" for that idea. :P
oh believe me i do.
In a not-as-good game, newbies were automatically joined to the 'newbie' channel...but there you could close your tabs so you wouldn't have so many flashing in your face. I enjoyed it...until I got sick of hearing the question "How do you get to C2?" "Ask in general help"
but you have a good idea, and that's what i was aiming at saying anyways, Marqsaynt. Perhaps i didn't articulate it well enough.
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Ok, we've reached a common point, Marq. The only difference between our points now is that I want the word 'newbie' floating under users of that tab. Walking in the outer bd and running into that label would be easier than that newbie typing, 'Help! I'm lost' into the tab. These two things will probably be facing each other in the poll that's coming.
@Liadan: I think I skipped over the part of your post about the guild. I don't remember reading it, and it didn't influence my opinions. Sorry if it looks like I stole your idea. It just looks like 2 random people found some common ground.
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Call them Sheeples. :)
The newbie guild/group/chat idea has been around for longer than I have been here, so don't fight over a chewed bone.
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Ok, we've reached a common point, Marq. The only difference between our points now is that I want the word 'newbie' floating under users of that tab. Walking in the outer bd and running into that label would be easier than that newbie typing, 'Help! I'm lost' into the tab. These two things will probably be facing each other in the poll that's coming.
If you're going to use that idea, please use a different word than newbie. Try to think of something that falls under medieval/fantasy...like the rest of the guilds. Might as well have it written on their forehead in sharpies. And what a way to welcome them!
*coughs* you know the "i'm lost" thing will get easier once we have coordinates...or a reference point.
Sheeples?
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Well, with the whole label system being changed, this may not even end up being an issue.
*makes a mental note to ask what happens to visible guild tags under the new invisible name system*
On a different note...
PS-HIS 200: Modern PlaneShift History
Chapter 7: "The Sheeples"
The Sheeple Foundation ---> http://hydlaa.com/smf/index.php?topic=15528.0 (http://hydlaa.com/smf/index.php?topic=15528.0)
The Sheeples ---> http://hydlaa.com/smf/index.php?topic=28009.0 (http://hydlaa.com/smf/index.php?topic=28009.0)
---
I actually still have a Sheeple hiding somewhere, maybe I should dust him off and see if I can successfully get him killed this time. :P
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Most newcomer questions I get belong to a specific question like:
* what do I have to do to learn casting magics
* how do I craft (weapons/armor)
* how/where do I mine
I try to explain how to do that with my limited english skills and every time I think that a youtube video might explain that more precise in less time. So making a few videos covering the most common tasks and make the available to newcomers might help a lot.
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[off topic]
Well, sorry for beeing off topic now, but ...
There is a Kran on my list who is totally afraid of stones and gems and things ...
and ... err ... I wonder if those sheeples still exist !?
[totally off topic]
I wonder if I will ever get my Internet-Connection back, but if so ... it could be fun to be a sheeples sometimes
[/totally off topic]
/me hides
[/off topic]
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I remember being new. It seems to me I was embraced by the players pretty quickly and felt like a ‘member of the family.’ Somehow that has been lost and I do not know if it this new generation of players or not. One thing I did not like was each time I met a player I was asked, ‘Do you want to join my guild?’ In order to keep the new players the older players must try to remember what it was like when they started. For me it was how I was so welcomed. Maybe for someone else it would be how they received the help they needed. Or maybe it was just the way people ignored them and with sheer determination they succeeded in understanding the game play anyway.
I think a newbie guild is not going to work because it puts people together in one place and gives them a title, ‘New.’ That can cause embarrassment. My suggestion is to have players volunteer to help the new player that looks lost. ‘Hello, my name is ______, can I help you with anything this fine day?’ Not only will you be helping someone, but also I am pretty sure you might even learn something new yourself. Even if it is how to better help the new player the next time. One piece of advice I received from Grroow was to stay on the ‘well traveled paths’ and that helped me a lot in the beginning. So you never know what you might say to help or hinder the new player so I say that you should tread carefully.
Another suggestion is the books. It would be great to have books that better explain how to do things without giving all the information out so they still have to work it out their selves. I would love to see books written about the players themselves that can also have little hints in them as to how something can be done, may it be mining, making weapons or role playing. Again I think the library is a good source for information. It always is, right?
This might not have the complete answer but it may help. So we do not put a tag on the new player in a ‘guild’ that would possibly embarrass them and yet give them the chance to be the next best player this game has ever seen because we can all be that person if we want to. That is the beauty of this game, you can be anything you wish as long it is in character, the possibilities are endless!
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I like the help channel, and I find it helpful, but only when people answer. quite often, people get replies of all the advisors being busy. I went to be an advisor for a while, but what annoyed me most was actually the advisor option being turned off every single time I log out. maybe just a choice of leaving the advisor option on until you turn it off again, regardless of whether you log off or not, would get more advisors into helping. also, I remember not being sure how to use the help channel. we need something in the tutorial on that.
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In order to keep the new players the older players must try to remember what it was like when they started.
Are you suggesting a playerwipe? :detective:
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GAH NO! :o
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In order to keep the new players the older players must try to remember what it was like when they started.
Are you suggesting a playerwipe? :detective:
If you did that, many veterans would sleep like babies-wake up crying every two hours! ;D
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Updating the Players Guide might be helpful.
I hear the following plea from new arrivals to the game repeatedly: "Isn't there anything else I can kill besides rats or do to get points?" (Killing rat after rat after rat didn't thrill me either. PS was my first intro to online gaming and roleplay. I thought magic was the only skill my character would need to survive. :lol: My character's mental stats were higher than the physical stats for that very reason.)
Quests are a possible alternative. Is it possible to have a short, detailed list of NPC's that give out quests for beginners? Maybe even station one NPC in each city devoted to newbs with hints on who to go see if they are new to the area?
Maps are often requested and I realize there is a simple map in the library and many can be found online. "North" and "East Gate" are common answers I hear when people are giving directions. A compass in the game and on the map would be very useful.
Frustration when a newb can influence the way seasoned players are approached or spoken to. A little time and patience with them goes a long way...normally. ;) Roleplaying may be the least of their worries at the moment.
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I very much liked the tips that were given during my first hour or so. Like when I got hurt, a window popped up telling me about the health bar and to watch it. These tips were very helpful and have greatly expanded since I joined, just yesterday I created a new char and saw how it turned for the better. So, my suggestion is: Have those tips cover all the basics of PS and let them appear occasionally, until the player turns "tips: off" in the option window, or alternatively with /tips off. If they open the furnace, they should get a pop up saying what to do, if they target a char, another pop up saying how to trade and so on. I like the tutorial, but those pop ups would be less of a procedure to finish, but more of a guardian angel that aids you when the need arises. ;)
Thoughts?
*Edit*
Perhaps that way, the tutorial would then only need tell about how to roleplay and less about game mechanics. It is a bit overwhelming for the common newb to read everything at once, methinks.
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1) Update the information on the website and the player manuals:
Like people have said before me here, a lot of the info on there is seriously outdated and parts are just no longer right. Also a lot of newer features, like crafting, are hardly mentioned. I'd also suggest making the actual player guide easier to access. Right now you need to click on several links before you come to the guide that helps you in the game.
2) Keep closer watch over the 'Advisors' who talk in the Help channel.
I've spent some time advising people in the past, but I basically gave up because often I was beaten to the response by someone else giving a rude, halfassed or sometimes even completely wrong answer. I suggest not letting everyone become an advisor and at least have some sort of control over who helps new players. Secondly, get rid of the system that only allows one advisor to help a person and let others pitch in as well, even after one person already helped. This will prevent people getting away with giving wrong answers and boost the quality of the service alltogether. Thirdly, allow help requests to be stored in a database similar to the petition database. That way even when no advisors are online, a player can still hope for an answer in a day or so.
3) http://hydlaa.com/smf/index.php?topic=30831.msg353816#msg353816
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It will not be long before every npc gives out a quest so the idea of a quest guide will be moot.
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Nah. Then the quest guides will just be "if you want to level this faction, do these quests. If you want to level this other faction, do these quests....."
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In order to keep the new players the older players must try to remember what it was like when they started.
Are you suggesting a playerwipe? :detective:
If you did that, many veterans would sleep like babies-wake up crying every two hours! ;D
that would be fun! playerwipe that is...keep everyone on their toes...make levelling up not so important!
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Nah. Then the quest guides will just be "if you want to level this faction, do these quests. If you want to level this other faction, do these quests....."
I wonder if people are in fact spading quests. Do people know about the alternative quest endings, or - gasp - the third way into the winch?
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There is more than one? Goodness, I am out of the loop.
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There is more than one? Goodness, I am out of the loop.
Settings has never made the number of ways into the winch a secret. (There are three sides to winch access! Which will YOU play with?)
We've just not said anything about how to get to the second or third. The second was found mostly on its own. However, by the time the third came out, most people either already had winch access, or were asking others how to get into the winch and getting info on one of the first two ways. Add to this the fact that once you get into the winch you can't get the other winch quests, and jinkies, we've got us a groovy mystery! :detective:
The third way is in fact a rare treasure and is, in my opinion anyway, one of the best quests in the game, if not THE best. (Full disclosure: I wrote it, so I'm biased) :P
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Well I can guess what the third way must be, having read the book, but I haven't stumbled across the quest. Sadly I don't have any characters that would pick that option either. Maybe I'll just do it some time out of curiosity ... or to see if Jeraphon isn't bragging too much about his own work :P
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The problem mentioning that once you enter the game a new player will ask "ok what do I do now?" is a problem to consider. I think before leaving the tutorial the last npc you meet should give you a list of npc to talk to and where to find them. This small list will contain npc's that have a few easy quests to start out with and thier quests are a good introduction to what the game will be like. Either that or the last npc in the tutorial should tell you to talk with someone as part of a quest that is begun as soon as you spawn in Hydlaa. (part of the quest will be finding them and talking to them so you will not have the majority or any quest info till you do so.)
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1. Explain PP and how to train somewhere. All the newbies want to become a wizard. Great. They don't comprehend they must kill 40 clackers with a sword to train magic first, however. Also, they should be shown some monsters that are good for noobs to kill, and actually give enough pp. Rats don't give enough. Perhaps a 'zoo' in the tutorial.
3. Enkis spawn in Hydlaa for first three deaths. It sucks to be in Ojaveda as a newbie. Nothing to do, no easy monsters besides worthless rats, impossible to go anywhere without getting very lost...
Everytime I go to Oja, I end up leading 3 newbies back to Hydlaa. I often lose one somewhere on the way.
My second point (guilds) caused the rest of the post to to ignored. I think these are just as important. One is a tutorial upgrade, and the other is easy to code, and will be so much easier on the poor newbies.
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The problem mentioning that once you enter the game a new player will ask "ok what do I do now?" is a problem to consider. I think before leaving the tutorial the last npc you meet should give you a list of npc to talk to and where to find them. This small list will contain npc's that have a few easy quests to start out with and thier quests are a good introduction to what the game will be like. Either that or the last npc in the tutorial should tell you to talk with someone as part of a quest that is begun as soon as you spawn in Hydlaa. (part of the quest will be finding them and talking to them so you will not have the majority or any quest info till you do so.)
Hold the phone. This is an awesome idea.
An OOC book, something like a guide given at the end of the quest.
Xolani gets a Waylander point.
I also really like the Enki spawning in Hydlaa fo the first couple times, idea. Though I'd include a message when the spawn point switched.
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*picks up the on-hold call so it stops blinking at him*
"Huh? Is my refrigerator running..?"
*hangs up phone*
My biggest problem with the enki spawning "forgiveness" period and the newbie book is that they both seem rather OOC when, I at least thought that part of the goal was to assimilate new players in as much of an RP and IC way as possible.
With the newbie book, I like the heart of the idea but, just would like to see it employed a little differently... why not have something like a city "Bureau of Tourism" or some other civic building where all new citizens of that town need to check in (and in the mean time get some very helpful information ;)); think of it as the PS equivalent of the old US Ellis Island.
On the spawning in Oja idea, okay, okay, I'll admit I'm a little biased. I spawned in Ojaveda my first time playing PS and to be honest, I am really glad I did. Rarely is Oja a true ghost town, sure it's not nearly as busy as Hydlaa but, in a lot of ways that can be a good thing when you're just starting out and don't know a Tefusang from a tria. Also, the rats that newer players most often need to kill to earn PP are conveniently located (read: not located in a smelly maze) and there often isn't too much competition from a bunch of other newbies lost in the sewers. Basically, I think Ojaveda gets a bad wrap. As time goes by, other races get their own towns, and Oja expands, I would think that any problem a person has with spawning in Oja will go away (or at least greatly diminish). So, stop being a bunch of shortsighted Hydlaa-centrists, just because they aren't as industrialized as Hydlaa doesn't mean they should be marginalized. ;) :P
@Serq: Really, really, really, I'm not trying to pick on your posts (not that you seemed to mind, or care, or take any kind of offense).
@Waylander: Really, really, really, everything I said about your OOC book idea was typed with pure malice and should be taken with as much offense as possible. :P
P.S.
Oh, and since we're throwing points around... Serq, you get some Cool Points for being gutsy enough to quote your own post. :P While not to be done often, you pulled it off and I applaud you. \\o// (Disclaimer: Applause shown is for display purposes only. Actual applause may vary.)
Seems Waylander and I both give points for what we are... He is Waylander and therefore gives "Waylander Points." I am cool and therefore give "Cool Points." ;)
*feels all warm and fuzzy inside whenever he gets the chance to bug Waylander in one way or another*
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Wasn't really my idea :P
And yes, I agree about the Oja point, it's not all bad. But spawning in Hydlaa will keep all the really new players somewhat together is a good idea.
It's only for the first few spawns.
Love you, Marqy :P
(btw, the giving of points just makes you seem even more like the mini-me that you are ;) )
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@Serq: Really, really, really, I'm not trying to pick on your posts (not that you seemed to mind, or care, or take any kind of offense).
I take extreme offense! It is amusing that we seem to be on the opposite ends of multible arguements.
Oh, and since we're throwing points around... Serq, you get some Cool Points for being gutsy enough to quote your own post. :P While not to be done often, you pulled it off and I applaud you. \\o//
Yay! Cool points! But I thought that the Hydlaa spawn was somewhat better than the guild idea at first, and 7 pages over 2 topics based on one point somewhat overshadowed it. And, with the common response I defend myself with now, "Who said it was mandatory?"
Go ahead, newbies! Choose whether you want to spawn in the newbie-oriented town, or some desert hell inhabited by various smithers and rogue campers that ignore you. Choose wisely!
And again, it's only the first few spawns so that they can orient themselves in the surprisingly large world. (And don't say it's linear. I still get lost walking occasionally from Hydlaa to Oja.)