PlaneShift
Support => Complaint Department => Topic started by: nude0007 on March 19, 2008, 02:04:22 am
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This game had so much potential that it really irritated me that I had such a bad experience with it.
The game was 3-d, "real-world" looking. The architecture was stunning and the textures were rich and varied. I have never seen a game where just standing and looking around was enjoyable, except for Oblivion (I am sure there are others).The game required you to build something of a history for your character and encouraged you to buy skills up front to flesh out your character. It has only a few races to choose from now, but that is easily added on later. Movement was simple and easy point and click OR arrow keys! Keys are also programmable and "shrtcuts" (macros) can be added to further customize th einterfae. Another feature I really liked; you could easily move between first person, follow mode, overhead view, or another mode that was at an angle from above. chatting with other players was easy and there was an help feature that allowed you to ask real people online for assistance or search through a limited (for now, I hope) Help file. The landscape was beautiful and quite often I could climb to the top of hills to survey the surrounding area.
BUT! The skill levelling system. A complicated system of bars that is not very intuitive. Once you read an explanation, it makes some sense, but other games are easier to understand.
Many places were unbelieveably dark. The main city, Hydlaa, was so dark I couldn't see at all most of the time except a short window around noon. A section of the path leading away from the city to the north is so dark allof the time that you miss the sharp turn between two large bolders to move further into the world and coming back across it makes it hard to find the city gates. When I enquired about this, I was told to just adjust the gamma on my monitor! He said other games like Doom are also dark, but Doom allows you to set the gamma with a few keystrokes from within the game (and remembers them). We shouldn't have to make a special foray into Windows settings just to play the game, and then have to reset it when we quit playing.
More annoying than that is the game interface was rather awkward. Multiple windowed menus that you (on the plus side) can move around the screen wherever you want, but often obscure much of the screen. If you open the inventory window it takes up half of the screen! several others do also, so if you want to see more than one or two, you can't see anything in the game even though it can be set to be semi-transparent until you mouseover. The icons were very similar in design and blended together until mouseover, making it hard to remember which one it is you want. Simple actions are unnecessarily complicated. In order to move items from the world into your inventory, you have to click on it, right click on it, and then select an action like "pick up" or "examine". Moving things from inventory to the ground is just about as complex. Another example is to place items into a furnace you had to open a window for the furnace, open your inventory, select the amount of the type of object you want to move (reasonable), then drop it into the other window. Why not click and drag directly onto the furnace and have it show up in the real world in the furnace? on top of that, the inventory menu has all your stats in it as well making it occupy more space.
Worst yet, interaction with npc's is almost impossible. It uses a text window to type in what you want to say to the npc. It was a RARE thing when I got one to understand what I wanted, and even seemed worse when I reduced my sentences to one or two words! In a game where "roleplaying" is supposedly paramount, just getting quests or information is almost impossible!
Okay, actually the worst thing is there is no map! zip! nada! The world is vast and full of valleys, so it is impossible to set your sights on a distinct feature and reference from it. What is odd, is that it has many really tall rock spires scattered around the landscape, but they all look similar enough that they do not help with direction. With no compass or map you spend a lot of time being lost, either in the city or in the wilderness.
Aside from all this, when you log into the forum and mention ways to improve the game, the creator pretty much flatly refuses! "There will be no maps, because they ruin roleplaying! Exploring is fun!" (Exploring is fine, but being lost all the time detracts from the game immensely.) "This game is about roleplaying, so I am going to force you to have to talk to npc's (who can't understand you) and others (who are all super nice, but may not have time to explain all you want to know) to get find out how to do things" (All paraphrased, or what I understood from what he said)
Then, finally, I died doing something I had done many times before with no problem. I slid down a steep incline and died. So I went to Hell. Excuse me, The Death Realm. A horrible place of endless paths that lead nowhere, with no clue whatsoever as to how to get out. "to teach us to be very careful and to make us not want to die" like any of us REALLY wanted to die in the first place! That's when I quit for good.
Add to all that the fact that monsters didn't attack back for a while ( a feature to allow players to run around for awhile without dying (shudder) and left little or no loot, then became un-attackable, apparently a huge glitch. Also, the first quest I did get required me to wander to the absolute opposite end of the world to get a mineral. Remember, this is a beginner quest and there is no way to find out where that location is!
I kept trying to remember that this is a Beta version of the game, but even so, there are so many problems, many that they refuse to even address, that I have had the worst gaming experience ever! What is wrong with having maps and compasses? If you don't feel they add to your roleplaying, THEN DON"T USE THEM! No one is forcing players to use features in a game. If you want to roleplay, you will, but having the game be especially difficult to use, just to try to force people to do it will only kill the game eventually. A game should offer people OPPORTUNITIES to do what they want, and if some agree that roleplaying is paramount, then they will roleplay. Trying to force the issue only limits an otherwise positive gaming experience. The interface should be VERY simple and intuitive. Most of us have real lives and don't want to spend most of our gaming experience reading Player's Guides that are lengthy and still may not cover what we want to know (I didn't find out much about what I wanted to know) or wandering around lost and not acomplishing what we WANT to do, or having to ask other players or help advisors about things that we should be able to either figure out or should be quickly explained when you try to do something. (you need a hammer to do that, or you have to learn skill X from an instructor like X).
So until the Death Realm dies, maps appear (or at least a compass, and npc's can understand SOMETHING I say to them, I am affraid I will be found on Runescape!
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I am affraid I will be found on Runescape!
Yeah...that sums it all up in more ways than one.
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So until the Death Realm dies, maps appear (or at least a compass, and npc's can understand SOMETHING I say to them, I am affraid I will be found on Runescape!
Well that's the entire point isn't it? if you want to play Runescape, play Runescape, if youwant ot play Planeshift play Planeshift.
I agree wih Jeraphon here, because it doesn't conform to your idea of what a RPG should be like (Runescape), you think it should be changed to a 3D clone of Runescape. It's a different game, with different gameplay dynamics.
What is odd, is that it has many really tall rock spires scattered around the landscape, but they all look similar enough that they do not help with direction.
Which just goes to show that you never really understood the game at all. Saying the rock spires (actually stalagmites!) all look the same fits into the same category as saying all pine trees look the same, they are supposed to look the same, they are the same thing. And it's not at all odd to have stalgmites and stalactites in a cave. Planeshift is designed and aimed at poeple who want to explore and find things out for themselves just as they would have to do if they were a real person suddenly transported to a different realm.
Have fun in Runescape, I tried it once, it just seemed utterly pointless and completley full of flaws and after a few minutes I simply couldnt stand it, they should change to be just like Planeshift, only 2D, then I would have stayed longer LOL
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I do not quite agree with dismissing his "rock spires" complaint. The stala[gmites|ctites] in the game are not particularly realistic and could be much more varied. It is true that the basic shape is common but there is little evidence of their proper origin from dripping water depositing its suspended minerals. Also there are different formations in the real world that depend on the direction and strength of the flow as well as intervening obstructions. I hope to see more kinds of speleothems (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speleothem) in the future.
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Okay, actually the worst thing is there is no map! zip! nada!
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the creator pretty much flatly refuses! "There will be no maps, because they ruin roleplaying! Exploring is fun!"
It seems to me that this gets repeated quite a bit, but really, there are maps.
I'll admit there's not too many, they're not always helpful, they can be hard to find and the sketching system can use some more improvements. It's being worked on.
But using the tools available in-game right now, it is possible to create a good, detailed and accurate map. If you can't find one, make one.
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hey folks...
since this is a complaints section, there's little need to sulk when people raise criticism or threaten to abandon the game for (gasp! shock! horror!) runescape.
the issue of finding one's way around is a bit difficult for a newbie, but i feel that it adds a little realism - of course you'd get lost if you suddenly appeared in a vast cavern on the inside (!?) of a massive stalactite, with myriad hills, vales and tunnels.
maps can be found (some of them extremely detailed) in various guild archives - once again an incentive to interact with people in-game, develop alliances and friendships.
I have usually found that just asking other pc's for help or directions is good enough to find most spots.
i also had a rough time in the death realms for a while ... until i just sat back and observed other pc's....there's enough influx of battered souls that you don't have to wait too long before you meet someone. even if they are not inclined to chat, you could follow them for a while and see where they go.
just watch your step, and don't look down if you suffer from virtual vertigo!
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Okay, actually the worst thing is there is no map! zip! nada!
[...]
the creator pretty much flatly refuses! "There will be no maps, because they ruin roleplaying! Exploring is fun!"
It seems to me that this gets repeated quite a bit, but really, there are maps.
I'll admit there's not too many, they're not always helpful, they can be hard to find and the sketching system can use some more improvements. It's being worked on.
But using the tools available in-game right now, it is possible to create a good, detailed and accurate map. If you can't find one, make one.
I supect the OP has a different concept of "map" than what you are discussing, AKA the traditional "reveal" map that appears under the tab key of many other exploration games that unshadows territory as you traverse it to reveal the landscape details and remains forever once you have it revealed, rather than the traditional paper map, whch as you say do exist even in public from places like Jayose's. thisis the type of map the OP wants and the Devs are determined not to have, I agree with them, I can just see every new player walking around in a grid pattern revealing all the maps so they no longer have to think.
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One thing that is great about PlaneShift is it is free to play. Another thing that is great about this game is this forum where we can express our opinions both ‘Pros’ and 'Cons’.
I do think that if a person does not like the game for whatever the reason they should not play. To each their own, as they say. So nude0007 I wish you well as you go on to play another game. Though, in my opinion, I highly doubt you will find a better community then the one that PlaneShift has.
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In order to move items from the world into your inventory, you have to click on it, right click on it, and then select an action like "pick up" or "examine".
Unless you changed the default configuration, you simply have to double click onto the item in order to pick it up.
If you don't like to actually have to "click onto" the item (targeting doesn't work that well always), you could simply use "Target next Item" and "Pickup" shortcuts. Or even a combination of both.
/target clear
/target next item
/pickup
The "target clear" only in order to pickup the nearest item.
Moving things from inventory to the ground is just about as complex.
open your "small inventory" (which needs way less space)
/show bag
And drag the desired items to the place where you want them to be. It hardly can be easier. Althought - I must admit - I'd love to see a "/drop <count> <itemname>" command.
Greetings, Arerano Areramau
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I can't say I have the same problem of darkness as you do. I haven't had to change gamma anywhere, and everything's fine for me. Maybe the Mac version is different. *shrugs*
I agree that the various windows are large, but there is rarely a time when you want more than two open. In fact, the only thing I can think of is when you find out you have a glyph via your glyphs window, and are anal to want to organize it with the rest of your glyphs in the glyph sack. So... glyphs and inventory... but you could close glyphs. Once you get used to what you need (which didn't take long for me), it isn't as bothersome. The only thing I'd suggest is that the character portrait in inventory be as large as the one in player stats.
Picking things up and putting them down isn't complex. I don't see how it's more complex than other MMORPGs out there (I played WoW for a year, EVE for several months, Vendetta for half a year).
I agree that NPC interaction can be *extremely* frustrating at times. It took me awhile to get used to, but now I can do it better than before. I also tend to help those with ideas if I see people frustrated. We know that the NPCs can be hard to talk to; it's being worked on. It's just hard to program an NPC to understand anything a actual person could say, but I prefer this (with all of its frustrating things) to little chat boxes where you pick what you say. I like thinking about it (most of the time).
The lack of maps does mean you either have to explore or ask people for directions. It was an issue with me when I first started, but I asked directions and made notes on how to get to places. Straight lines and road landmarks are your friends.
Actually, some people want to die so they can glean info from those inhabiting the Death Realm. There're quests that send you there because the folks there are... more odd than those in living reality. There're trainers in there too. Also, monsters to fight (rats that give 200 exp? what?). Death in PS isn't that bad, it's the true death that's bad.
Monsters having issues happens a lot. As you said, this is a beta, there're problems. People complain when they can strike back, people complain when they don't. Please, just deal with the problems of the NPCs as yes, these are too being worked on.
The Death Realm is part of the game. Maps and compasses are moot when you have friends. Besides, what would the Explorer's Guild do if everyone had maps to everywhere? You get used to NPCs as you play.
This game is good as is, and I like the direction it's going. To make a WoW or Runescape knockoff won't get it anywhere. Making it unique is something that'll set it apart. That's what were trying to do here.
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If I have to say something good about this game it would be that the graphics are ok, indoor environments look quite good but it's not like I can really enjoy exploring the game with the mouselook being so useless for windows users. I don't have a problem with brightness though, it's not too dark for me. After saying all this, I still think this game has potential and I will be testing every new update that comes out.
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the respone i got to my lengthy missive is no less than i expected. Rather than offering the promise of something better or trying to make a better game with criticism, all they offer is their own criticism of the problems we have with the game and say we are at fault. I too think Runescape is basically pointless, but until guys like you actually listen and make a BETTER game, it is still better than the Impossible-to-play monster you offer (Grin). and as others said, it doesn't matter if you call them stalactites, stalagmites, or abstrat polygons with textures like they really are, the fact is they could be used to navigate, if made to look sufficiently different from one another, a point you are intent upon missing.
I BET if I made a game with no way to know where you are, you'd be the first to complain, and if the npc's didn't understand YOU, you'd be ticked off too. Just cause you wrote it that way doesn't make it the right way. Anyone who is truly intelligent realizes that the way he sees things is not necessarily 100% accurate or best. Probably not even 50%. True brilliance is being willing to adapt. It's the story of success. Those who are willing to adapt survive. Those who don't are not even a footnote in the collective conciousness.
Iwish you a measure of success at your NEXT endeavor.
*edit*
my biggest point is that it shouldn't be that hard. I shouldn't have to have to learn shortcut/bypass # 110 or spend hours figuring out just th e right syntax to talk to npc's. If you want things to be hard then you can ignore help or easy ways and try to talk to others using sign language or something. Run out into the wilderness and turn off you monitor and move around a while to make SURE you are lost if that excites you, but DON'T expect others to find that as exciting as you do. Roleplaying is hindered by NOT HAVING TIME TO DO IT, not by being lost or unable to communicate easily. As I said, maps do not hinder play.If you don't like them, don't use them. But if you can't communicate with npc's that are the central way to interact with the game, then what have you got? As for when I got trapped in hell, er, Death REalm, there was one other person there who was as lost as me. I don't have time to wait hours or days for someone to get me out of a situation i shouldn't be subjected to in the first place (FOR SLIDING DOWN A HILL that i'd done before! It's not like I said "I'm invincible, I'm going to jump off a really high spot just because I can!")
At least in runescape I can set out to do something and do it. I am only limited by what I decide to do, not by having an interface that stops me.
*edit*
Oh, PS: I have met THE NICEST PLAYERS ON THIS GAME THAT I EVER MET! They deserve better! Wish I could repay them in even the smallest way. Especially a certain gentleman from Germany. I salute you!
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Nude0007, Runescape is a game requiring money to play, and a larger, paid, dedicated staff. Not saying that the staff and workers here aren't dedicated, but they're also not paid to my knowledge.
Runescape is also a game that is essentially finished. This is not. It is a -> :beta:
Thus, we are all testers. You are a bit testy. Our suggestions move this game in the directions it takes. If you don't want to help, give suggestions, try things out, then by all means, play games that are finished. Who knows? Maybe maps will be implemented later. Maybe someone will make a breakthrough in NPC AI and they'll be like walking/talking people.
I'm here because I'm patient. I know there are bugs that need to be worked out, and I want to see things fixed, because it feels good to see them done.
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We promise to offer players a better experience in the future. No, your complaints will not all be adressed to your personal satisfaction. Some may be. It will not all happen anytime soon. Tracking minimaps will never happen (as I have been told).
I would also like to point out at this time that PS does not have a single person that works full time on the game. Not one. Not a single person is paid to work on the game, or gets any money out of it. Not one. Not a single person working on the game is indebted to the players.
Am I defending the game? No. I am merely pointing out that we are not your servants. We work on the game because it is enjoyable for us to do so.
Having said that, and having briefly looked at Runescape, you are free to remain there as long as you wish.
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If you thinking playing planeshift is difficult, you should try programing it ;) I tried to fix mouselook problems at various points, but what remains is some inconstiant software in windows that no one seems to be able to pin down. Poor mouselook :'(.
Also, I suffered from the gamma problems... until recently there was the commandline -fullbright, but I belive that was removed... maybe someday someone will figure out how to make the gamma accessable, but it will take work.
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I BET if I made a game with no way to know where you are, you'd be the first to complain, and if the npc's didn't understand YOU, you'd be ticked off too. Just cause you wrote it that way doesn't make it the right way.
Ahh, you really do seem to be missing something, I didnt write it, I just play it OK? I joined, found all the same game mechanics you found, and adapted my play style to suit. Yes I wandered off into the wilderness my second time, umm, there are roads! I walked all the way to BD from Hydlaa without getting seriously lost, having a map or getting directions from anybody.
The NPC's were irritating, but I do understand this is a beta and not a polished release, I eventually learned how to communicate by putting in a bit of time and effort.
At least in runescape I can set out to do something and do it.
If a game is to easy to play it loses all attraction pretty quickly unless you have a very short attention span, PS is not a game to jump into and become an uber mage/warrior etc in a few days, in fact it does take a lot of work to gain levels, and more imprtantly, to gain the respect of other players, those people you seem to regard so highly but would never be seen dead or alive in Runescape. Aren't they enough of an attraction to keep you in PS? If not then I expect you are placing to much emphasis on wrong aspects of the game.
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True brilliance is being willing to adapt. It's the story of success. Those who are willing to adapt survive. Those who don't are not even a footnote in the collective conciousness.
an interesting philosphy you hold... yet i see little of it's application.
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i've been involved with this game for less tha 6 months - i was astounded by the amazingly interactive 3d world...open source!!! \\o//
in this time, i have already noticed major improvements and changes. this game is under development, it's quite dynamic, and an amazing bit of work.
sure there are rough edges, and our feedback as players/testers will help to polish these, i am certain. luckily for the sake of brilliance, both players and devs are capable of adapting. hang in there!
the darkness issue and the mouselook seems to be a windows-related problem - just one more reason to ditch the virus :devil: and start working with linux! :thumbup:
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It should be kinda difficult to get lost from place to place. There are clearly marked paths from place to place (note they are different colors), and there are signs all over the place.
The intelligence of npcs . . . in many ways planeshift npcs are actually several orders of magnitude smarter than in most games. I know this seems hard to believe but dealing with drop down menus and strictly linear quests is much more straightforward than writing thousands of entries and growing able to predict the types of things that people will ask. We do have tools for this and more responses are added every week as we adapt to what players desire.
People who come to ps expecting a complete game tend to leave disappointed. There is little the ps team can do about this but keep marching. Remember folks it is an alpha.
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yes, i understand that the game is in Alpha. yes, I figured it is kind of a spare time project. the big problem is that it seems very much like you just dismiss my concerns as my problem. It seems like you really don't want constructive criticism, you just want to be left alone to go your own way. If that is the case, then why have forums at all? or at least this thread? If you want us to tell you what we feel is a problem, don't just tell us we're the ones that are wrong. If I have sounded more and more edgy, it's because you seem to act like none of my points have any validity. It's great if some people don't mind trying 500 times to talk to an npc till they finally get it right, but those of us who don't have that much time or patience should also be able to enjoy the game, don't u think?
Everything I have said is intended as a tool to help you make the game better. If you allow options for people to turn on or off according to how they want to play, then you have made a better game. I assume you will one day want to actually launch it as a "finished" game and perhaps even charge people, well you will increase your player numbers by being more versatile.
BTW: Runescape is free too. I read that there are 5 million active free accounts! And as I said, it's not THE game I am looking for, I want multi-player Oblivion! You guys were the closest thing I found to that. You seem to have glossed over that I said a lot of positive things about your game as well. The "problem" section took up more space, cause I had to spell out in detail what I found to be a problem.
Sorry if you didn't find any merrit in my suggestions.
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It should be kinda difficult to get lost from place to place. There are clearly marked paths from place to place (note they are different colors), and there are signs all over the place.
That statement is, at best, a misleading half-truth. Let's break down some of these "clearly marked paths" and "signs all over the place:"
Kran city to Hydlaa: if you ask any of the Kran how to get to Hydlaa, they will tell you "go out the gates and turn right at the fork in the road." So, you go out through the stone "gates" into the next region and...road, what road? There's just a great big empty green area with lots of hills, a few trees, and a lake. If you just turn right and start going, the edge of the area will gradually force you to curve your path around to the left until you hit the stone "gate" to Hydlaa. (Note to newbs: this is actually a very reliable, albeit excruciatingly slow way to get around: follow the edge of the area and you will always end up a at a "gate" to the next region). If you try to go the other way, from Hydlaa to the Kran city, you emerge from the stone "gate" onto a very well defined road: it's a different color, and it has steep walls closing it in on either side. Unfortunately, following this road will never get you to your destination. You just have to know that at some point, you have to defy all common sense by climbing up that steep wall on your left and setting out cross-country. As for signs, there are a few along this route, but none of them mention either city. All of these signs just sit right next to some sort of geographical feature and provide it's name. While knowing that I'm at "Cutthroats Bane" certainly adds some nice flavor to the game, it doesn't tell me how to get where I am going.
Hydlaa to Ojaveda: exit the gate behind Jayose's library and just follow the road. This works pretty well at first because the road does seem to be reasonably well defined by its different color, but then the borders of the road become vague in a few places, and there are even some small branches here or there. You think to yourself, "Should I take those branches? No, I'll just stay on what looks like the main path." And then, you get to a large, round area that's all the same beige "road" color, with several "roads" branching out from it. Which one do you take? Well, fortunately, there are some signposts. Oops! None of those signposts say anything about Hydlaa or Ojaveda. You'll just have to guess! Isn't getting lost just one great big fun adventure?
If the intent is to make this a world with some verisimilitude, then the roads and road signs are an abject failure. We are talking about a society that, at this point, has just three major settlements plus the bronze doors. Such a society would have very big, very well-defined roads between those settlements to facilitate travel and trade. There would be clear signposts at every intersection to tell travelers which way to go. If you want to take a page from the ancient Romans, you could even put mileage markers along the roads (10 leagues to Hydlaa...8 leagues to Hydlaa...6, etc.). There would be inns along the roads, certainly at every major crossroads. There would be a constant stream of NPC traffic going in both directions, especially trade caravans. I realize that those last two (inns and NPC traffic) will most likely not come until a later stage of development, but the roads and signs really need to be improved as soon as possible.
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I assume you will one day want to actually launch it as a "finished" game and perhaps even charge people, well you will increase your player numbers by being more versatile.
There will never be any charging players. Not a dime. The very purpose of this project is to create a fully free, fully functional and ever-evolving game. Donations are welcome, but even then they do not give players anything in return, in the game - no special advantages, no special items.
nude0007, some of your complaints are valid, and some suggestions are things that we are already working on. But not everything you advise are things we want to go for. It's a difference of opinion and preference of design. We've made our choices, after years of thinking it over and comparing alternatives, and listening to all the arguments. Yes, it would be super easy for drop-downs when you talk to NPCs, but it would also be boring. Surprise surprise, when presented with such a system, most players tend to barely read anything and click with a half-absent mind. The point is we have chosen a system for NPC conversations that we are not going to radically change - only improve in the direction it's going. If this design choice upsets you, there is little we can do but ask you to either bear with us until you find it more usable, or take a break and come back in the future.
But, when it comes to your points about the GUI for example, I'm in total agreement that it badly needs a redesign. Some of our devs have a lot of ideas in how to make it better; they also lack the time. I just want you to know that I realize that is a problem, and I hope to be tackling it as soon as we find the right manpower and right amount of hours. (And redesigning the GUI is no simple task.)
Now, tackling the complaint of ambiguous roads and scenery that can induce highway-hypnosis: total agreement. I'm an art dev and I find our hills boring as hell... :) I'm waiting for the day we can use foliage without major performance hits to make it more interesting, but the point lucasjung brings up about a constant stream of traffic and the need for better orientation is totally right. While I can't promise that current maps will see a dramatic update soon, I can promise that new maps created will not suffer from this problem. Again, I recognize the problem and hope to rectify it next chance I get.
I'm afraid there's not much more I can offer you that is within my power, but I hope seeing that you are listened to will ease your mind just a bit. PlaneShift can be a frustrating experience, but as stfrn said: if you think playing is bad, try working on it ;)
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If I have sounded more and more edgy, it's because you seem to act like none of my points have any validity. It's great if some people don't mind trying 500 times to talk to an npc till they finally get it right, but those of us who don't have that much time or patience should also be able to enjoy the game, don't u think?
Truthfully? Not really.
If Planeshift was a game being developed to make money and attract the largest demographic all of your points would be very, very valid. But, PS is not a development for money project. Think of it this way, there are things an artist crafts to make a living (i.e. a photographer shooting a magazine ad, a commercial portrait painter, etc.) then, there are projects that an artist does just for themselves and/or a small group who appreciates the less standard approach. PS always has been, and I would guess, always will be a niche game. They chose to largely target roleplay gamers (a group typcially marginalized by other MMORPGs) and it's philosophy on things like maps is just another example of this commitment.
Think about it... once map making skills are refined, a new person could show up in town and there are actually player characters peddling maps, Not just one standard map but, lots of different types! So, first few moments in game and already you are RPing with another person and the realm doesn't seem quite an overwhelming place as it did before. While some features are admittedly rough around the edges and there is always the occasional misstep when a new feature is added, most of the times it seems to me that these features are being added/developed in order to increase the IC interactions of people in game. A concept that I agree with even if I don't necessarily always agree with how they go about trying to achieve this goal.
Basically, if it seems that your suggestions have fallen on deaf ears it's probably more just a difference in philosophy... You have a vision of what a MMORPG game should be and that (at least in some aspects) differs from the people creating PS.
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Note also Nude007, most people answering are just fellow players.
You do have your ideas, I get it.
There are clearly defined paths. With time you CAN identify landmarks. People do this all the time.
The thing that I try to concentrate on is that ps is somewhat educational in nature and does require a bit more real world sense to be good at.
Example: I am in hydlaa in the plaza. Noob asks "how do I get to a tavern?" I say, "Ah friend look up [use pg up and pg down key] you see that very tall tower there?" Noob says "Yeszors!" I say, "[we try not to use leet here this is am immersion game] Right then I want you to head toward that ramp and toward that tower, as you go up a little ways off to your left you will be looking for an inset stairway, head on up there and you should see the tavern. May Laanx frighten the shadows from thy path."
or you can face the statue of Laanx in the center of the plaza and relate all directions to it.
Example: "I can't find Harnquists shop." "Ah that is easy good sir, go to the Laanx statue in the center of the plaza, when you are facing the statue, Harnquists shop is off to Laanx's right."
There are specific things that stand out in every map. Finding the language to wield these things to be able to communicate with other players is a challenge that at least for now we leave to the players.
The Npcs will of course improve in time but we have our own solid reasons for them not being the purveyors of directions about the city.
One day they will move. (this make it impossible to use relative direction)
There are over 300 of them. (kind of less than trivial to get them to do all we might want in an ideal world)
We want players to interact WITH EACH OTHER.
Anyhow yes, the game is in development, all comments are taken in the spirit they are given.
All posters must realize the inevitability of repetition in a forum such as this, and know that no one is dismissing their ideas, just bored with the thousandth such complaint.
Runescape comparison's will never have the least bit of sway on me. I work as hard as the best of their devs for free while they get paid to do it.
Happy gaming.
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BUT! The skill levelling system. A complicated system of bars that is not very intuitive. Once you read an explanation, it makes some sense, but other games are easier to understand.
Most of the points have already been addressed. I'd like to point out that this is a very valid one. I don't mind the leveling system itself (progression then practice) but the way it is represented in the skills window could be rethought. Would be a nice little change.
You have to keep in mind that a lot of your points were just bugs. Though I can think of a couple devs who would love Hydlaa to suddenly be really, really dark just to bother the players, I highly doubt that it's anything but a glitch :P
PlaneShift is going to be a game. It's not necessarily going to be your perfect game. Something that a few players could do with realizing ;)
All the same, I wish you'd stayed. Besides the questionable Forum user name you seem to be quite alright.
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There are clearly defined paths. With time you CAN identify landmarks. People do this all the time.
Your initial statement about paths being clearly defined had nothing to do with landmarks: you said that their color gives them away. I showed how the color of roads is pretty much useless for navigating to many places. Now you are changing your story and saying that it is the landmarks, not the color of roads, that makes the paths clearly defined.
Example: I am in hydlaa in the plaza. Noob asks "how do I get to a tavern?" I say, "Ah friend look up [use pg up and pg down key] you see that very tall tower there?" Noob says "Yeszors!" I say, "[we try not to use leet here this is am immersion game] Right then I want you to head toward that ramp and toward that tower, as you go up a little ways off to your left you will be looking for an inset stairway, head on up there and you should see the tavern. May Laanx frighten the shadows from thy path."
or you can face the statue of Laanx in the center of the plaza and relate all directions to it.
Example: "I can't find Harnquists shop." "Ah that is easy good sir, go to the Laanx statue in the center of the plaza, when you are facing the statue, Harnquists shop is off to Laanx's right."
There are specific things that stand out in every map. Finding the language to wield these things to be able to communicate with other players is a challenge that at least for now we leave to the players.
If that were how players and NPCs gave directions, then I think it would not be so objectionable, but that isn't how they give directions: several NPCs and players all gave me the same directions to get from the Kran town to Hydlaa: go out the gate, take a right at the fork in the road. There is no road, and therefore no "fork in the road!" Directions based on landmarks have to be based upon landmarks that actually exist.
Furthermore, your suggestions about how "clearly defined paths" can be based entirely upon landmarks does not address my point about verisimilitude: even if no central authority is maintaining the roads, they will still be obivous from frequent travel (mud and dirt vice grass, ruts from wagon wheels, etc). Also, it is almost impossible to navigate cross-country based solely upon landmarks unless you have a compass. "To Laanx's right" works in the city, but there is no such easy method of orientation in the wild, unless you have a compass. I realize that there may be solid technical reasons why compasses have yet to appear (and that it may be much longer before they do), but until compasses appear, cross-country navigation without roads and/or direction signposts will be impractical and unrealistic.
I understand that there are a lot of things about this game that can't be fixed right now (or even anytime soon) due to the limited time and resources of the developers. I have no problem if you say, "We just can't fix that right now; maybe later." It is ridiculous, however, to say, "That's not really a problem." There is no shame in having problems in a game at this level of development, but there is great shame in trying to explain away real problems.
*edit*
All posters must realize the inevitability of repetition in a forum such as this, and know that no one is dismissing their ideas, just bored with the thousandth such complaint.
I also have a suggestion to cut down on the repetition factor. Following this suggestion will also hopefully address the feelings on the part of many players that their concerns are being ignored, thus killing two birds with one stone.
Most of the opensouce projects I have interacted with have a "state of the project" tracker that basically outlines, in brief, where the project has been, where it is going next, and what the known outstanding issues are. PS may have such a document, but I have yet to find it. I suggest putting a sticky thread at the top of the Complaints Department, right under the guidelines, and make one of the guidelines, "Read the 'state of the project' thread before posting." The 'state of the project' thread should include a very brief statement of developer philosophy, short- and long-term development goals (and rough estimates for when each will be realized), and a list of known problems with brief explanations that include relative priority. Here's an example:
Philosophy: PlaneShift is about roleplaying, so most of our design decisions are centered around encouraging player-to-player interaction...
Short-Term Goals:
1.)
2.)
etc.
Long-Term Goals:
1.)
2.)
etc.
Known Problems/Common Complaints:
1.) Conversing with NPCs can be extremely frustrating.
We are well aware of this, and are constantly working to improve NPC conversation skills. No matter what, we are NOT going to adpot a pull-down system for NPC conversations. You can help fix these issues by following the steps in [this other thread about NPC conversations]
2.) The Death Realm is difficult to escape and generally frustrating.
The Death Realm is supposed to be difficult to escape and generally frustrating, which is an incentive for you not to die and a small "punishment" if you do. That being said, we are always open to constructive suggestons on improving the Death Realm. If you are new, here are some tips for coping with a trip to the Death Realm...
3.) There is no auto-map.
There will never be an auto-map. Instead, we want players to make maps and sell them to each other.
4.) There is no compass.
That is on our to-do list, but is very low priority right now. If you are a skilled programmer, maybe you can volunteer to work on this problem!
5.) I'm new, and I can't find any weapons to buy that I can afford! Also, the relationship between prices for different items seems all out of whack.
We have set up the economy in order to encourage players to trade with each other instead of with NPCs. However, we understand that there are still a lot of problems and imbalances in the economy. We are constantly making small adjustments in an attempt to improve the economy, and are always open to constructive suggestions on how to make it better. However, the following steps are ones that we are NOT willing to make because they contradict our design philosophy...
With a sticky post like this at the top of the complaints department, players with a complaint will quickly be able to find out which category it falls into:
1.) The developers know about it and are doing their best to correct it.
2.) The developers know about it but are not currently working on it due to lack of time/resources.
3.) The developers know about it, and it is on purpose (see maps and Death Realm above)
4.) The developers apparently aren't aware of it, because it's not mentioned in the sticky.
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If that were how players and NPCs gave directions, then I think it would not be so objectionable, but that isn't how they give directions: several NPCs and players all gave me the same directions to get from the Kran town to Hydlaa: go out the gate, take a right at the fork in the road. There is no road, and therefore no "fork in the road!" Directions based on landmarks have to be based upon landmarks that actually exist.
That was written as a placeholder when it was only discussed that gugrontid would be on a leftward path on a road from hydlaa, before gugrontid was actually placed. If you'd like to re-write the directions from gugrontid to hydlaa in concise terms, pm them to me and I'll give you my personal guarantee they'll go in as such.
Edit: you're at nine posts, so just reply to this and then pm me. :)
I suggest putting a sticky thread at the top of the Complaints Department, right under the guidelines, and make one of the guidelines, "Read the 'state of the project' thread before posting."
Yeah, because stickies work. Ever see the wishlist thread? There's a sticky there and at least two thirds of all wishes are locked because the poster didn't read them.
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Edit: you're at nine posts, so just reply to this and then pm me. :)
This makes nine, which apparently isn't enough for PM. Here are my directions:
From Hydlaa to Gugrontid:
Exit through gate by Octarch's tower and go into the woods. Go left at the fork in the road in the woods. Shortly after exiting the woods through a short canyon, the road will curve to the right--instead of following the road, go straight ahead over the ridge. You will see a large stalagmite in the distance: the entrance to Gugrontid is to the left of the base of that stalagmite.
From Gugrontid to Hydlaa:
After exiting the canyon out of Gugrontid, you will see a fallen stalagtite ahead and slightly to the right. Go towards it until you see a large boulder ahead and to your left. Go past the boulder and continue over the ridge, then turn right onto the road on the other side. Once in the woods, turn right at the fork in the road and follow the road to Hydlaa.
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Most of the opensouce projects I have interacted with have a "state of the project" tracker that basically outlines, in brief, where the project has been, where it is going next, and what the known outstanding issues are. PS may have such a document, but I have yet to find it.
Ahahaha. Yeah, the missing roadmap.. I complained about that, too, when I was still player 3 years ago.
There's no roadmap. Not publicly, not internally. We have a collection of ideas and subprojects being worked on and everyone having "their brainchild" which they like most to work on.
At the beginning of each release circle everyone places suggestions for the next version, then Talad decides what takes priority, depending on who is around (which changes constantly) and what he wants in primarily.
We use the forums and bugtracker (bugs.hydlaa.com) to filter suggestions from players and keep track of the problems while we decide internally on which feature gets in.
Well, there CAN'T be a roadmap planning ahead the next 10 versions for PS simply because people come and go, and everyone has different things in mind (which is a good thing) and wants to have things work in a certain way - and because we decide on things in a semi-democratic way, depending on what we need most in that moment.
If someone suggested an idea but isn't around anymore to fight for the time and ressources to get it implemented, the idea dies, too, in most cases.
Everyone wants to have specific features integrated and bugs fixed, but we only have so many devs who can do one thing.
PS is different from most opensource projects I know, mostly because of its organisation which is a hybrid of a company structure and a chaotic geek-thing.
What I wanted to say: No roadmap, except the things Talad mentions in different interviews, forum posts etc. The rest is on the bugtracker and the various FAQ (which you can find collected on pswiki.xordan.com).
And last but not least: If you have bugs to report, put them on the tracker. We have built a tester team whose purpose is to exactly work on those, they eventually also can give you better answers than the people around here.
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laying all the other stuff aside for a moment, why do you feel there must be a Death Realm to "penalize" people for dying? I've never even heard tell of a single player who got themselves killed on purpose, or kept doing it to the point where it was a problem, or any other reason I can think of. Most games just have you lose items, which is penalty enough if you ask me.
The thing is, I cannot find the way out, and after investing all the time I did in that character, I am upset that I can't get him out to use again. I really don't want to have to start another character, so where does that leave me?
As I said, I didn't do anything that I hadn't done many times before without losing even a smidgen of health, and was completely dumbfounded when I died. If you feel that the Death Realm is necessary, then how about 3 "get out of DR free" cards, so that if you can't get out, ou spend one. Then, if you die by mistake, or can't find your way out of the DR, you just use one of your passes.
If you could get me out fo the DR, I might try playing again. Heck, I have always wanted to become a developer, BUT...
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I can't imagine it's that hard to watch other players and follow them out in the DR. It's not even necessary to stop and talk.
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First time I was sent to the Death Realm, I got to the exit in about a minute (then I fell and died). And a twelve-year-old girl I know (who doesn't play anymore) got out in no time without help or guidance.
I can't fathom how the Death Realm can be so difficult. You have to be pretty freakin' stupid to get stuck in there.
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to add, the dr is also a realm on it's own that will have inhabitants, maybe me in the future who knows ;)
it's just like the living realm and may when the game is more finnished be as big as or even bigger than the living realm
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I am relatively new to the game myself. I had a very hard time getting out of the DR. I was stuck for over an hour, and was consulting google, before someone noticed me and asked if I needed help. I had tried to follow people, but i kept losing them... I died several times walking off the edges of things, and it seems odd to me to force people to take a leap of faith to get out of the DR.
I still play, largely because the graphics are amazing, and the price is right.
The argument about realism and no maps. Maybe it is just because i was in boy scouts growing up, but I would NEVER go out in the woods trying to find some place I had never been without a compass. I have been told once or twice to look for the crystal, but It cannot be seen from many places I have been. It is very easy to get turned around completely and not recognize where you are, or how to get back to where you were.
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Part of the problem with exiting the DR, which takes some practice, is that many people end up there soon after starting to play the game. The spiral ledges are hard to navigate and frequently cause new players to plunge to their death. The drop from near the citadel to the second catwalk is hard to find and following an advanced character can be fatal -- I for one often drop off the upper ramp to the rock floor which can be fatal for a newcomer. It is also easy to miss the lower catwalk causing yet another fatality. The last thing about following people out is that when you are new you still have to fight with the controls which is a lot easier while walking and most of the people you are following are running full out. It is easy to lose them and if you happen to play at the wrong time you might not see another for quite a while.
Once you know the way out it just takes practice to get where you can traverse the route without dying or getting stuck on the geometry. When the mobs are active it is possible to die just trying to walk past them. There is a fine balance between be quick or be dead and be quick AND be dead.
Once you get used to it, it is easy enough.
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I'm just wondering, do the characters join the world after having experienced some sort of amnesia? Do they arrive on a vessel or through a portal from the surface or from a different world? Do they start out as infants on the first login? Just in case they don't, this is where a basic built-in map comes in.
Might I also ask why the developers are so preoccupied with "penalties"? Is the Maze Realm... I mean a maze-like realm on a laggy server with a laggy client with NPC trainers (that players might require) and quests in it really the best design decision to handle "death"? This is a game, is it not? Unless the goal is to make it tedious and boring.
I also see numerous people (read: player base) post about changing the quest dialog system into a dialog tree based system instead of having to type everything manually, only to get accused of wanting to be "spoon-fed" (very "professional", by the way). Is this really the case here? Or are some developers not up to the task and want to be "spoon-fed" by not having to code a better and more intuitive quest system or come up with challenging and interesting quests that might require a better thinking? I will just say one thing: I will challenge any quest writer any day, who thinks that an outdated MUD-like quest system provides for more challenging and interesting quests, with a much more challenging (and fun!) but devilishly logical quest based on a dialog tree and item system. Want hair-pulling quests and puzzles? That doesn't require a text parser. Ask Jane Jensen or Roberta Williams, if you don't believe me.
I see a lot of people post about quitting the game or ask why the server has been deserted and devoid of any interesting activity lately... Then I see some posts from the developers or some regulars wonder how the game can attract more players and keep the existing ones. Yes, really, such a dilemma...
A lot of additional good advice has been posted throughout the forums on the topics of "maps", "death" and "quests" already, so I won't repeat it here.
Bye. :)
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Deserted server? You totally missed the point of that thread - might want to recheck it and find out exactly what it talks about. We have ~200 players on every single day.
But I see you're here just to get a rise out of people with your posting style, so be prepared for replies that are less than kind :) You're quite insulting towards the people who put their time and effort into this thing, and that never makes them want to bother paying further attention.
Toodles!
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I'm just wondering, do the characters join the world after having experienced some sort of amnesia? Do they arrive on a vessel or through a portal from the surface or from a different world? Do they start out as infants on the first login?
Maybe, no, no, and maybe. Most everyone's life begins in Yliakum (some elves like to say they're from Dermoria, though). The Surface is out of bounds and inhospitable; and I suggest, from past experiences, that no one creates characters from another world. It's possible to start out as an infant, but then the game would be pretty boring, just crawling around and whacking rats with pacifiers... :P
Might I also ask why the developers are so preoccupied with "penalties"?
They aren't, and you'd be surprised that this is the most forgiving game I've ever played. All you gotta do is perhaps waste a bit of time, but other than that, you don't lose anything. If you're someone who has a really short attention span, just go find some people nearby to roleplay with, or you can go outside and do something. Thirty minutes (or is it twenty-five?) isn't that long.
I mean a maze-like realm on a laggy server with a laggy client with NPC trainers (that players might require) and quests in it really the best design decision to handle "death"? This is a game, is it not? Unless the goal is to make it tedious and boring.
I actually like the Death Realm ('tis my favorite place, next to the sewers). And it's really simple; not that maze-like at all. But I guess it can be a bit maze-like, if all you do is whine about it instead of trying to get out of it. I've never lagged in there, though, and that may just be something about your client, computer, or connection. I also don't see what's wrong with the NPC trainers. Unfortunately I can't say anything about the quests since I've been stuck on one for months...
I don't see how it's a bad decision to handle death like that. Would you rather your character be permanently dead? Or lose all your items or skills?
And on that last part: try to make more constructive insults. Maybe you should find a solution instead of complaining.
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I also see numerous people (read: player base) post about changing the quest dialog system into a dialog tree based system instead of having to type everything manually, only to get accused of wanting to be "spoon-fed" (very "professional", by the way).
The discussion how the quest system should be has taken place about 5 years ago. It's far from being perfect still, but we won't change the basic concept, take it or leave it.
Also, devs come from the player base and we make the game as WE think it's right. If you want things changed, either make constructive posts and try to convince us or become dev and do it yourself <fullstop>
If you could get me out fo the DR, I might try playing again. Heck, I have always wanted to become a developer, BUT...
Come on irc, channel #planeshift-gmtalk, ask for Kerol and I'll show you the way out.
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I prefer talking to NPCs with text. Dedicated select an answer branching is a simplistic approach that I do not like in this type of game. Perhaps a hybrid system with simple [yes/no] [Continue] [Ready] [<choice of this> or <that>] and other standard answers would be good, but I do not see a good way to use it for everything. As a person who has written some quests, I would find that downright limiting.
You say you see a lot of people complaining because they do not like things, and would rather have them another way. You fail to mention the people who do like the direction a lot of the features are going. I'll give you the example of myself. I like the Deathrealm, but would actually like it to be even darker so you can't see far, with a 'glow' added to characters so you can see your feet. This is not possible yet. I like the death curse, and would like to make it if not harsher, at least more interesting. That means adding 'crawl' and 'stager' animations for at least five minutes, a tapering debuff, and a 'smell of death' status effect for the full half hour. I like the idea of talking to NPCs with text, though it needs a much better parser for me to enjoy it. I like the way crafting is set up, though would like it to be more interactive than pushing a button.
There are many things I do not like, such as the mechanics of combat (though I do like the base idea of stances), the mining system, the guild system, the road areas (I still get lost all the time trying to follow the roads), creature AI, the entire training system, character creation, and some other things. A lot of those systems are placeholders for when better systems are coded. However, these things take a lot of time to change, and do not make me want to quit the game.
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actually there is a better and somewhat less obivous reason why the quests are writen like they are... well there are two. but i'll give the more important reason. dialogue trees are _a lot_ more work, for little benefit. it is faster to do quests as they are now, and easier to trouble shoot. with the trees you have to write atleast 50% more text, and then if problems arise wonder if it is an effect off the tree, the player or the engine. as it stands we just have to worry about the player and the engine.
btw:
I will just say one thing: I will challenge any quest writer any day, who thinks that an outdated MUD-like quest system provides for more challenging and interesting quests, with a much more challenging (and fun!) but devilishly logical quest based on a dialog tree and item system. Want hair-pulling quests and puzzles? That doesn't require a text parser. Ask Jane Jensen or Roberta Williams, if you don't believe me.
1. i remeber the earlier stuff so i doubt you are using a good example.
2. you're on. step up to the pen.
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As I said before, there was only one other player around when i landed in the DR, and they were as lost as I was. My help request went unanswered.
As far as it being easy for some, if you want to call me stupid, that's fine, make yourself feel better at others expense. By all means don't offer CONSTRUCTIVE criticism. Glad I don't know you. I notice you said the 12 year old girl doesn't play now. Interesting. Perhaps SHE is the smart one.
I might consider the offer of being led out, but I really don't see why we have to go through this DR mess at all. Just the prospect of having to do it again makes me inclined to decline the offer.
200 people a day. If you think that's a lot, you really do have more serious problems than just not listening to your players.
Oh, it would be GREAT if the parser worked at all, but programmers dropped parsers decades ago, because it takes forever to program them to handle even simple text. they have been tried again occaisionally, but never successfully. Everyone just thinks too differently. It is a great idea, and surely next to just talking to the npc via a microphone, it would be the best way to go, if it worked, which it doesn't.
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Oh, how it saddens me that a game can bring out such bitterness in people. Yet aren’t we lucky to have both this wonderful game and this great forum to be able to express our thoughts? So many work very hard for us to make it enjoyable.
I hope PS continues to grown and many more people get to experience it. Some will like it, some will dislike it, some will leave and some will stay. Many even return to find a totally new game and are amazed at what they find.
Let us all try to work together to make this the best experience for all.
Sadly if someone does not like the game I think they should just leave without making a scene and telling everybody how bad it is. I think many prospective players come to read the forum to see what people say about it. A positive outlook on the game would be nice for those to see.
This is just my opinion of course.
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There's nothing wrong with constructive criticism. Thats why this section of the forum exists after all.
But nude0007, you've made your points, and have heard the responses from the devs and they've given their reasons as to why they decided to go the route they are going with the game.
The way players interact with the NPCs aren't going to change much, and there's no more point discussing any other method, as it won't be used.
We thank you for your opinion on the game and your comments on how you think it could be made better, and hope you respect the Devs opinions on why they have chosen to do what they are doing.
If you are still dissatisfied, then I can only suggest that maybe PS just isn't for you, and you should look for another game to pass your time with. And if you so wish, try coming back in a few years and see how the game has developed along since now, and see if it's more towards your liking.
Thanks.
:)
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As I said before, there was only one other player around when i landed in the DR, and they were as lost as I was. My help request went unanswered.
The numbers of players cycle depending on what time you play, I hate hearing that there was not anyone available at that specific time, but that will not always be the case. I suggest logging back in and approaching the situation with a fresh perspective and/or looking for others in the same realm to aid you as has been suggested above.
As far as it being easy for some, if you want to call me stupid, that's fine, make yourself feel better at others expense. By all means don't offer CONSTRUCTIVE criticism. Glad I don't know you. I notice you said the 12 year old girl doesn't play now. Interesting. Perhaps SHE is the smart one.
Saying something along the lines of "If you could get me out fo the DR, I might try playing again. Heck, I have always wanted to become a developer, BUT..." is not constructive criticism, I'm sorry to say.
We do appreciate all actually constructive criticism as well as suggestions.
I might consider the offer of being led out, but I really don't see why we have to go through this DR mess at all. Just the prospect of having to do it again makes me inclined to decline the offer.
Again, this isn't constructive, it's you expressing your displeasure over an integral part of the game. PlaneShift is striving to be a well rounded world, and death is part of the world. Death is also not something taken lightly in Yliakum.
200 people a day. If you think that's a lot, you really do have more serious problems than just not listening to your players.
That number pleases me just fine and we do listen to players, in fact I'm here listening to you now and taking time to respond.
Oh, it would be GREAT if the parser worked at all, but programmers dropped parsers decades ago, because it takes forever to program them to handle even simple text. they have been tried again occasionally, but never successfully. Everyone just thinks too differently. It is a great idea, and surely next to just talking to the npc via a microphone, it would be the best way to go, if it worked, which it doesn't.
Dialogue with npc's is improving, but as the game is developing, we have a mix of old and new and we work on upgrading the old.
As I've said before on the forums and on IRC - if you spend time with a quest trying to guess something, once you finally get it send me - via PM or email - 1) the name of the quest 2) what the npc said you were trying to answer and 3) what responses you tried that did not work.
I'll be more than happy to look over it and add anything that fits. We never turn down information.
Thank you for your time, your perspective, and your feedback. I can only hope that you look at PlaneShift in the future with an open mind that lives up to your claims.
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As I've said before on the forums and on IRC - if you spend time with a quest trying to guess something, once you finally get it send me - via PM or email - 1) the name of the quest 2) what the npc said you were trying to answer and 3) what responses you tried that did not work.
Something I probably would not offer, but Rizin isn't me ;)
However, my offer stands on the other side - ask for me on IRC and I help getting out of DR.
DR will grow instead of getting removed and parsing text will be improved instead of getting removed.
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Rizin - "The numbers of players cycle depending on what time you play, I hate hearing that there was not anyone available at that specific time, but that will not always be the case. I suggest logging back in and approaching the situation with a fresh perspective and/or looking for others in the same realm to aid you as has been suggested above."
So your answer is that I still have to wait for the help of others, (on their schedule) to be able to even play the game? What if no one is ever there when I want to play?
Rizin - "Saying something along the lines of "If you could get me out fo the DR, I might try playing again. Heck, I have always wanted to become a developer, BUT..." is not constructive criticism, I'm sorry to say."
You are right, that was not constructive criticism, it was a plea for help. I'm not surprised that you can't tell the difference. (grin)
Rizin - "Again, this isn't constructive, it's you expressing your displeasure over an integral part of the game. PlaneShift is striving to be a well rounded world, and death is part of the world. Death is also not something taken lightly in Yliakum."
Again I ask, why are players punished for ACCIDENTALLY dying? (I slid down an embankment that I had slid down several times before without taking any damage) And how is the DR better than actual death? I'd prefer complete and total death to this. If Death is important, then make it final. I can accept that. Most games just allow us to live again because they know we'll probably just re-create a character as close to what we had before anyway. Then they graciously allow us to keep some if not all of our hard earned items, because they realize this is just a game, not reality. I'd much prefer losing ALL items I had to this. Maybe a window giving us the choice: "Do you want to try to escape the DR, or just lose all items?"
It would have been cool if the developers said, "Gee, that would make it easier and better." or "I never thought of that, I'll look into that as a possibility." Or even "I guess we could make an option here for people to do it this other way, those of us who prefer doing it THIS way still can!" As I said before: By offering multiple options, you end up pleasing more people. By making things easier, you promote role-playing.
To your credit, I think you did actually listen some, admitting that you were working on improving at least the dialog between us and npc's, maybe more?
Again, if your game did not show such promise, I would not have bothered writing even once, but since you are dead set on not making a better game and just blaming people who have problems for their trouble, I will probably not bother to return. I am sure someone will do this right at some point. I suppose I'll just have to wait a bit longer, or until I can retire and launch my own project (20 more years?)(grin).
PS: I don't IRC anyone or IM or any other chat. It is too risky in my estimation. Sorry, and thanks for the offer.
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It is too risky to contact someone by PM on the forums..? Are you here to play by yourself, or to enjoy the game with other people? :)
Rizin is an amazing person who goes out of her way to make sure people are happy and playing without problems. Why make it more difficult for her with the type of posts you're making? Clearly you're not satisfied with the game, and clearly you think that we're all here to make your experience miserable just because we can. You've also made it extremely obvious that you're leaving - several times. At this point, please do. I am not sure there is anything more we can do for you, so save yourself the time and effort of repeating your complaints (which have already been addressed), and find another game that is more enjoyable.
I'm sorry PlaneShift doesn't quite come up to your standards yet, and I hope in the future once we add more features and solve more problems, you will return and have a better time.
Until then - have a great day, somewhere else.
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@ Karyuu - Thank you.
@ Kerol - Thank you, I think ;)
@ nude0007 - You say that my first answer is for you to wait for the help of others on their schedule, well yes, I cannot make people appear online when you are...nor would I want to make anyone do anything. In all my time playing, I have never seen zero people playing when the server is available to the public, or any number close to zero.
You also say that I cannot understand a plea for help. I understand them just fine when someone sincerely asks for help and does not imply that I must do things for them if I want them to stay and then toss on a I would do this but as if I am the one keeping you from doing something, that is not a plea for help in my book and nor will I change my definition because you think I am wrong.
Based on your own statements help has to be coming from someone other than yourself (since you find exploring the death realm and finding your own way out unacceptable which I could call self-help in a sense) so I find it surprising that you would find displeasure in my response that suggested you wait for the help of others. I find that logic circular, you claim to want help, to be pleading for it even, but yet you do not want to wait for someone to be available to help you...
I'm sorry that you accidentally died. It happens. You propose final death, so you would prefer to "accidentally die from sliding down a cliff" and have your character deleted (perma death) to finding your way out of the death realm. My personal opinion disagrees with a change like that. Accidents happen, from an odd game mechanic or ones own fault. I have died at the hands of an accident (falling off something I was trying to get down and other times pressing the wrong key and running over a cliff when trying to chat) and I have had my own experience in the death realm, and I did make my way out - with a much better understanding of the realm.
Things like being given the option to lose all items, aren't immersive and don't fit into the concept of the area. As was mentioned above, the death realm will grow - not fade away into something we do not deal with.
Thank you for giving me some credit, I do appreciate that you are willing to meet me somewhat, if not half way on the topic of discussion. I also am glad that you think the game shows promise, it is nice to hear. On the contrary we are dead set in making the game better and we strive to do so every day - to each his or her own. I wish you much luck in finding a game that fits your criteria and standards.
At this point, I must say that I agree with Karyuu's sentiment:
I'm sorry PlaneShift doesn't quite come up to your standards yet, and I hope in the future once we add more features and solve more problems, you will return and have a better time.
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If a mod finds this post not fitting into this topic and inappropriate, please split.
I don't IRC anyone or IM or any other chat. It is too risky in my estimation. Sorry, and thanks for the offer.
3 reasons why this estimation should be reconsidered:
First I like to make some things clear.
"Risk" in this context is limitted to:
- Finding out your external IP address and trying to access your network/computer ressources
- Exploitation of a security risk of a chat client installed on your computer
- Social engineering and exploitation of low education and/or weak mindset
"Chat" means real-time textmessaging, being a combination of a phone call and email, used as primary means of communication for instance in PlaneShift (the game).
"pm" means "private message" which comes down to leaving a message for another forum user, being stored on the same server and displayed in a similar way as forum posts, but only visible to the recipient.
"IRC" means "internet relay chat" which is a specific communication protocol to relay chat messages from one user(-client) over several interconnected servers to another user(-client) or a group of users.
1. IRC is a well-tested and comparing to the development of the internet a very old protocol (according to wikipedia established 1988) used in many applications. If you are interested in learning on how it works, check the original memo to the internet community (http://www.irchelp.org/irchelp/rfc/rfc.html).
PS is using Freenode for IRC services. Freenode is a suborganisation of the nonprofit-organisation Peer-Directed Projects Center and is administered by volunteers. The network is set up with the purpose to provide FOSS projects a base for communication.
By using IRC on freenode you reveal your IP address to administrators of the network. To hide your IP from common users you easily can set up a cloak. However, if this scares you, you should be aware that your IP address is visible to the admins of these forums, to GMs and devs if you play PS, to any host of homepages you may visit.
Since you should have no open services or network ressources either way, revealing your public IP to anyone is a neglectible risk.
2. It is not mandatory to use an IRC client installed on your computer like mIRC, which is a well-known and thoroughly tested client. You also can use clients that are web-based. This requires your webbrowser to be trustable and bugfree, which is even more questionable since it is a lot more complex than a simple IRC client (thus viewing any webpage would pose a bigger threat than using IRC over freenode).
3. Social engineering can happen anytime human communication takes place. The only way to protect yourself is education and the intelligence to avoid people who want to manipulate you. Since in this case the only reason you should have entered into communication using chat as means was to approach someone who could help you the time you need help.
As a PM may not be read immediately, chat may be preferable in this case.
If you still think chat using IRC over the freenode network is too risky, you should also reconsider the usage of MMORPGs and with this PS.
Last but not least I would like to point out that the said above mainly goes for forum PM and IRC using freenode as network. "Chat" as an obscure general term cannot be applied in discussing risks. For instance I would not recommend (if security is the primary priority) the usage of ICQ (because accounts are hacked and used by the internet mafia) or Skype (since they do not reveal their sourcecode and thus may pose security threats without users knowing, see Eric Raymond's essay The Cathedral and the Bazaar).
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Heh, I have a simple suggestion . . .
Once you realize how easy it is go get out of the Death Realm you are gonna feel sooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo silly!
You will likely look back on this and think, "gods, I was such a rude little nooblet, why were these people patient with me at all?"
If you go into a biker bar and say, "I think motorcycles are stupid, and anyone who rides one is a complete idiot." you are likely to get your ass handed to you. In essence that is what you have done here, and instead of kicking your butt, we listened, advised, and offered aid.
Now one more point. Where else in the world of gaming does a new player get to submit a complaint and have 3 devs and the gm team leader answer all of their questions? No where!!!
Please take our advice in the positive manner it was given.
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Sorry nude0007, if you think it is just simply a matter of making it better then I think you got the devs mixed up with tinkerbell. Nobody gave them pixie dust to throw on the game to instantly make it "better." ;D However, if you want check out this thread : http://hydlaa.com/smf/index.php?topic=32017.msg367839;topicseen#msg367839 (http://hydlaa.com/smf/index.php?topic=32017.msg367839;topicseen#msg367839) This game might work a little better for you. :)
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Personally, I'd imagine a plea for help being more immediate (like the Help channel, or petition), rather than writing on a forum. Otherwise, you're just opening yourself up for people calling you out on it.
I think the Devs should have pixie dust. They could have some *real* fun then. :D
I have to say, Xillix, I felt that way when I got out my first time... in fact, I went and jumped off a ledge to do it again, as sort of a realization of how simple it was. 3 hours turned to less than ten minutes. I was -> :-[
But, from now on, whenever I read one of Kerol's posts, I will don my aluminum foil hat (because it's better than tin), to protect my brain from his social conditioning.
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Well, I know you'd probably rather just have this thread die, but it's your own fault for making me rest so much. There's not a lot of RP'ing being done down in the mine. At least my wireless reaches there. :)
The OP still makes valid points, and I'd agree with every problem and suggestion he made. But my vote and support is with the developers. This is a labor of love for them, done on their own free time, and as such they can make whatever game they feel like. I kind of like the different approach. I've been lost in the game as well, but it's slowly getting smaller and I'm learning my way around. The roads are more than sufficient, and eventually you get to learn the lay of the land. It's not all cookie cutter hills and rivers. Once you find a few key roadmarks and what to do once you see em, it's pretty easy. I was especially thankful to the NPC that clearly explained to me how to get to the magic shop.
My only addition is to echo that there are some serious bugs that should be worked on before new features are added. It's just a better idea from a software development standpoint to get things stable before moving on. You can end up with bugs that build off of bugs, making it even harder to debug. It seems that the dev's are not concerned with some issues because they have advanced beyond it. That's understandable, but I would think some concern should be given to the new people who come here and find things just a bit frustrating to get going.
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I was especially thankful to the NPC that clearly explained to me how to get to the magic shop.
You're welcome. Good to see at least some players out there are using the NPCs for directions. :)