PlaneShift
Gameplay => General Discussion => Topic started by: Xillix Queen of Fools on October 29, 2008, 02:07:25 pm
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This should be fun.
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Everytime Laanx smites someone, it makes my day.
The flashing message that Laanx smote someone is great. Laanx should be able to smite everything Laanx wants.
Oh, and snorks.
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Snorks!
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Adding snorks basically implies that the answers are not being taken seriously. I mean, this is a yes or no question. I voted no because roleplay should be natural in order to be fun, it is a state of mind that needs to be engendered, not enforced. Enforcing it does not make it fun -- it is fun already and the more people that roleplay the more people will see that it is, and then they will roleplay. If it is not fun, there is no point in enforcing it.
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Edit- changed vote to Snorks.
I voted no.
/me waits for everyone to recover from the shock before continuing.
'Enforcing' has the connotation of making people do something they do not wish to do for the sake of something other than fun. The phrase "You are going to have fun whether you like it or not!" comes to mind. The goal should not be to 'enforce' roleplaying, but to make roleplaying more fun so more people would actually decide for themselves to take part.
Also, if 'roleplaying' were strictly enforced as it should be, that would mean people would not only have to act in character all the time, but would have to act as the character that Character Creation handed to them. We would also have to strictly abide by the mechanics of the game and certain in-character rules of being forced to train, as well as having to try to make sense (or ignoring the nonsense?) of the actual training mechanics.
Roleplaying to me is not just about acting in-character with other people. It is about interacting with the world around you as well. In the strictest sense of the word, that is not possible right now, and would make a very un-fun environment.
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I'm a little divided on this one... shock... gasp... whatever. I like the idea of people staying in-character in main chat. If someone is observed talking about computers or guns or whatnot, then a GM should warn them and take action as appropriate if the advice is ignored.
But I have no problem whatsoever with someone asking questions about how to do something and expressing that in main chat (the mentor in this situation should always use brackets to respond if appropriate).
It has been my observation, that with few exceptions, experienced players respect main chat and stay IC, so i would say that "stricter" enforcement of the existing policy is not warranted at this time. But i couldn't resist responding "snorks". :)
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Snorks are present only for people who want to throw away their vote.
I take those who answer snorks to be indifferent to the topic at hand.
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What do you mean, "on Laanx" ?
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What do you mean, "on Laanx" ?
laanx is the code name for the public server you play on
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Emperor of the poll says re-vote!
and i did.
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We have the player policies for a reason, and they already restrict Main chat to IC conversation, and OOC only allowed in small amounts when enclosed in brackets. I voted 'No' because the policy is already enforced pretty strictly. If you hear someone talking OOC chat and dont notice anything happen it just means that a GM is not within 10 yards (meters) to hear it. If you have a problem, report, petition, or /tell a GM.
I also agree with UtM that you cant force people to do it, if they want to run round and PL everything, not RP but still not actively disturb others, then they should feel free. Just respect the rules.
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Moon skews the argument beyond the scope for his own purposes. A simple yes, no, or snorks will answer the question.
The question is this, do you think Laanx should require that people play the character they have, guild names and character names should respect settings, and that characters should use brackets to speak of ooc things?
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Okay... I guess I'll ask the question then... what do you mean by "enforced"?
My understanding is there aren't enough GM's to even enforce the no weapons in Hydlaa rules or no bigotry rules let alone now trying to enforce the stay in IC rule. Is this planning to be enforced via code in the game? too many brackets and off you go, then people will simply stop using brackets. Someone complains in IRC so a GM comes in and smites? That leads to a whole host of things such as liars complaining about someone they simply don't like...
I'm just not sure this can be easily enforced unless there can be a GM everywhere at every moment of game play.
I don't mean to cause anger or ire here. Just asking a question.
/me cowers slightly knowing the power and might of Xillix
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The question is this, do you think Laanx should require that people play the character they have, guild names and character names should respect settings, and that characters should use brackets to speak of ooc things?
Yes.
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I have the feeling that sangwa and some other long term rpers would be more likely to gm or play more often if rp were more enforced . . .
Enforced could me stricter penalties, or greater rewards. . . I changed the poll question to reflect this . . . and reset the vote count.
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Thanks for the clarifications.
I find the way things are pretty good already, and I don't know if it's due to GMs enforcing rules or to players will. In both cases however, that makes me lean towards voting no. Keep arguing; I would like to read reasons (and facts) promoting the 'yes' before I vote.
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How much is done now to encourage rp?
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Damn it how do you change your vote? I entered the wrong answer. :(
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reset, AGAIN
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The question is this, do you think Laanx should require that people play the character they have, guild names and character names should respect settings, and that characters should use brackets to speak of ooc things?
If this is what is meant by 'enforced', then I would vote yes, but that is covered already under the player policy. I still voted no because it sounds as though penalties are going to be handed out for players who do not 'roleplay'. Roleplay could be interpreted by different players and different GMs differently.
I am still bothered by the Snorks answer. The reason being that a non-vote is practically the same as not voting at all. Or to put it differently, being silent on the vote. Silence under the law implies consent. So if one was following legal precedence, Snorks votes would be inclusive under the Yes vote category.
I am not actually trying to troll this, I just think that a simple Yes or No would be clearer.
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reset, AGAIN
Sorry! X-/ :-[
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I voted no, because planeshift could use more people. And ooc players bring a lot to the table, they focus on the game itself rather then just writing. if you take five role players and five oocers. I am willing to wager that the rpers spend more time rping in kada-els, while the oocers spend more time playing the game, and testing much needed features.
I don't think it should be enforced, motivated, but not enforced.
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Heath that is quite a stretch, sometimes a snork is just a snork.
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It depends on what you mean by "strictly enforced" and "highly encouraged". I'd have to know what these things mean more specifically before answering the question.
I think that the best way to encourage roleplay right now is by making the game mechanics more conducive to roleplay. Community values are a part of the equation, but community values are more of an ends than a means. Game Masters can probably best do their part by being a good example for others.
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I see this question as a bit too vague. Sorry Xillix, promise I am not trying to make waves here. I think the current policy states, in plain language, what is expected of people in-game. If people do not with to obey those rules and become disruptive, PS has a way to deal with them via /report, /tell <GM>, whatever.
I see the "highly encouraging" part or the "strictly enforced" part being a bit more than should be done right now.
On a slightly different, but related topic, how would "highly encouraged" work? Giving mechanics advantages to people who chat instead of play the mechanics? Items, positions?
I stand by my vote of "snorks", but only because I think that the current level of "enforcement" is adequate for the time being. I assumed (I know what happens when you assume) a No vote would be to say we shouldn't have any enforcement. People who do not want to role play, and ARE NOT disruptive to others, should be left alone.
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I voted Snork simply because i think the pool should not be the thing you look at to decide this. If all the veterans of the community state their case with arguments to support their claim but 50(in reality probably 2) people just mash the no or whichever button they win.
But other then that i think we don't need more regulation. We don't need less regulation either. I can say that i haven't seen a GM in a while. Maybe RPed with them but haven't seen them do GMy thing's that i couldn't. And then i also have not seen people be disruptive. I've seen people who talk trash but do it IC. I've seen people who ignore you IC. I've seen a lot of stuff be done the greater amount of which was IC.
So from my perspective the moderation is standing on that golden line.
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Absolutely yes. There's a difference between a heavy role playing game (as planeshift advertises itself) and just another MMO. Right now the focus seems to be encouraging RPers to tolerate PLers. Personally I don't mind them, but I can see where the frustration has risen from. The game is advertised as being RP-heavy and RP oriented, attracting a certain sort of RP-heavy player. Of course when they see 'wts 15 plat ore 1k each' they get a little irked, and probably say something stupid/rushed/elitist. "Elitism is bad, m'kay?" Yes, I know, but right now the heaviest and most devoted (RP-nazis and texplayers, as they're often referred to), who have the most complex, interesting characters and original storyline ideas, are given a verbal lashing for being as they are on the forums for the sake of being kinder to PLers. It feels like being bopped on the nose for being bad, and really discourages RP. I said before I don't mind Powerlevelers, but if I had the choice I'd much rather socialize with the scorned RPer than Miney McMinerson Mineymine the fourth-- No matter how nice mineymine is, I find RPing more fun.
Of course, planeshift could do something else, too. Get rid of the mention of roleplaying in game and in the websites, advertise it as a free game, and probably do fairly decently as it is. People will RP, and probably do a little more PLing than they currently do, and you'll attract less than a third of the textplayers or immersion-fascists or whatever they're called nowadays. But as it is, I don't think Planeshift is being true to its own words.
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I think you are possibly confusing "stay in-character" with "chat the worlds best impromptu gathering". I have RPed a few times, what I assume everyone keeps talking about, and it is a lot of fun. However, I don't find occassion to run around chatting with people and telling wild fish stories all day to be my cup of tea on a regular basis. Does this mean that my character is maxed in everything? No. Does this mean that my character uses internet speak in main? No. Does my character act in ways that are inconsistent with his overall storyline. Yes. But only when helping new players learn the ropes. I will stop what I am doing and show a new player around Hydlaa. Find the local shopkeepers, help them earn a few PPs, or give them a pair of sabres or something. Should I, in your opinion, be elsewhere because I am not always looking to RP when in-game?
I do not condone people being rude or OOC in main at any time (although to help newer players, brackets are used frequently... not all know how to switch tabs at first). But I do not feel that people who do not "play the game" and just "chat about the game" should be given special treatment/rewards over what is offered to any player in the game.
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I find some RPers far more annoying than many PLers but how each chooses to play the game and enjoy it is up to them. Taking away that freedom would be taking away a big part of what makes PS special, imo. Rules are clear, break them and you get the axe. What I find annoying differs greatly from what others find annoying and I may deem certain RPs as such or simply "not good enough". If I happen to be the one policing RP, my point of view becomes absolute while I'm on duty, then some other GM will enforce their own point of view, which could be totally different from mine. Unlike other issues, the gray areas are the vast majority here so it's harder to maintain a suitable standard of performance for whoever handles RP enforcement. This will only bring more problems.
Anyway, I do think we can do more to encourage RP but I wouldn't use the term "enforcement". So, snorks it is! :)
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If you were addressing me, directly, (which you might not be), then you're putting a lot of words in my mouth. I never said you had maxed stats, I never said you shouldn't help newbies, and I never said that you shouldn't be here. And I don't think that people should be given things for RPing, but having a bit more of an emphasis on the forums, the website, and in game wouldn't hurt at all. And I did NOT say that rudeness was a good thing, or something that should be condoned. I was just trying to point something out. People that are consistently rude... are rude people. That's just how it is.
Mythryndel, I was not attacking you, or your style of playing. Keep doing it if you want. But I recall a thread, a little while ago, called "Child of RP and OOC". It was largely tongue-in-cheek, made by RPers throwing in a few jokes, but it's... kinda what the game looks like now-- half in, and half out. Neither one is wrong, but jammed together, both suffer.
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I think it's also important to point out that we aren't divided into roleplayers and non roleplayers. It's a sliding scale, and players who roleplay often do things that are out of character even when they're roleplaying.
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Snorks!
I think it's also important to point out that we aren't divided into roleplayers and non roleplayers. It's a sliding scale, and players who roleplay often do things that are out of character even when they're roleplaying.
These two quotes sum up my vote. Besides, if RP was 'enforced' that would mean we would ALL have to play by the rules :P I'm admittedly a rule breaker and I think many 'roleplayers' are too so they'd kill their fun as well. (Not trying to saw we should break rules....just that we do.)
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I voted yes, not to make it stricter but to put a little more emphasis back on RP. What kind of RP game has little RP. ??? And lately it has dropped. I trust will swing back in the other direction eventually but for now the game seems to be mostly ooc tells and grinding.
It is very difficult to strike up Rps because most of the experienced RPers are gone or not on very much and new players rarely start out RPing. I'm sure most RPers remember being terrified or a little scared to do it at first. Once the current wave of new players starts turning out more Rpers it should balance out though.
...The game is advertised as being RP-heavy and RP oriented, attracting a certain sort of RP-heavy player. Of course when they see 'wts 15 plat ore 1k each' they get a little irked, and probably say something stupid/rushed/elitist. ... It feels like being bopped on the nose for being bad, and really discourages RP. I said before I don't mind Powerlevelers, but if I had the choice I'd much rather socialize with the scorned RPer than Miney McMinerson Mineymine the fourth-- No matter how nice mineymine is, I find RPing more fun.
I think Kedhran is right. But less so now. I think most of the "tell the RPers to stop whining talk." has winded down again. However, RPing is a bit of a footnote as opposed to the focus of the game right now. I distinctly remember walking around Hydlaa and passing friends engaged in personal RPs and plenty of open RPs. Honestly, that's how I started.
I also notice that the level of RPing seems to have scaled back.
I remember 5 base groups:
PLers
people who never mentioned anything outside of the game but didn't roleplay
People who RPed but were really laid back about it (i.e. smileys are ok, etc...)
People who RP but where a little stricter (i.e. don't type "/me thinks that so and so is crazy")
And the RP Nazis (few though they were)
Now it seems to be 2 groups:
PLers
People who RP but where a little stricter (i.e. don't type "/me thinks that so and so is crazy")
I think RP nazis just gave up on getting rid of the PLers and left. XD
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I was addressing your remarks, but giving my background as well. From your remarks, it appeared that you were saying that only those that RP should be allowed. I take a more centrist view, and say that as long as you are not in violation of the rules, or rude, that both extremes (and the majority that, I believe, are a hybrid like myself) can all get along just fine. I do not see where anyone is being left behind, or suffering, because of the way PS is right now.
I do not see your "poking fun at the PLers" thread as fostering an environment that is welcoming to all. The reason I stop what I am doing to help new players is to return the favor done to me when I first started by many, and to help introduce new players to what the game has to offer. The game has more to offer than a 3d chat client, or just a 1-player game that is nothing but grinding.
And, for the record, I wasn't attacking or trying to put words in your mouth. I was making a case, and taking your statement about PS needing to be more RP-only to task.
[EDIT] I just realized I missed an entire page of responses... For all of the talk of days gone by and how great the RP was... I am always on the look out for stuff going on in main. Possibly it is just because I don't hang out around Kada El, but there have been entire evenings (2 - 4 hours) where I see nothing going on in main unless I drop something or have to sit down and rest. I have been involved with groups who were playing around in-character, but it wasn't some huge grand thing that I would necessarily tell tales about a year from now. Maybe I just got involved with PS too late to experience what all the hype is with RP. However, I see a lot more people moaning about it (not addressing anyone personally in this thread), but not a lot of people in-game making new RPs.
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You opened a can of worms here Xillix. I say let people play their game and have fun. That is what the quest system and grinding is for to many people in game. If they feel pushed into doing something they do not want to do then they will leave. Once I greeted a player in game and the player said "I am not a role player." I wished him well and went on my way. I love the role play, but I would never ask someone to do it if they do not want to. It is called Common Courtesy.
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It's not so much that it felt like a personal attack, as it felt like you went on the defensive right away. Let me clarify: Powerlevel all you want. By no means remain in-character at absolutely all times, we'd go mad from stress if we did. I'm not saying you shouldn't train and have fun, but I'm saying the game-- in and of itself-- should put more focus on roleplaying and the community. Or it should put ALL of its focus on ease of play and working on making the mechanics more fun. Play any Roleplaying server on any other game, it's seldom just a 3d chat client-- and people talk all the time when they're playing it for the grinding aspect. And I'd like to say this: Roleplaying a tea-party isn't fun for me. In the past this meant ZOMG AWESOME EMOTE FIGHT IN THE TAVERN for myself and others, which I'm sure earned me my share of harsh glares from all varieties of players, but now it's calmed down to walking, talking, doing stuff other than sipping ale at the bar. My guild, which is by no means filled with roleplayers, does the most amusing of RPs when they want to, even if most of the time they're training or leveling- Roleplaying hunts, ceremonies, parties, etc. It's great stuff, and the way they use it is hardly a 3d-chatbox.
But, I digress. This poll isn't one about banning all the people who actually PLAY the game. It's about what the focus of the community should be on, what the Devs and GMs should do about it, and simple, overall things. That's all. Not enforcement "RP or DIE" sort of thing. No one would do that, it'd never be fair. A bit more interest in character development and storylines would be lovely, though. I'd like a player to stop and wave back when I say hello, or walk around town without their weapons out. Mabye have one of the people I greet not rocket by, and wave or say hi, even if only for a second. Maybe a few less names like "Elfy Earpoint". That teensy bit of roleplaying-- small and insignificant it may be-- would do wonders for me and others. After all, that's supposed to be what sets planeshift apart from other games-- As we're told in the tutorial, the guides, and many other places.
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Your most recent response is different from how I took your initial post. I think I agree with almost everything you said in your most recent post. When someone /greets me or tries to talk to me, I (almost) always stop and respond as soon as I notice. And I TRY very hard to not have weapons out in Hydlaa. It is difficult sometimes to remember always to put away my swords when leaving the arena, or when I am carrying large amounts of stuff to Kada El's...
Names are supposed to be enforced by the GM's when things like that are brought to their attention. Beyond that, I don't think RP focus is going to get all players to be... um... courteous.
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Having an in character conversation with someone is roleplaying. In character conversations usually start with a greeting. ;)
Still, I gave a bad example. Let's say I give them an in-character greeting. They don't have to be courteous and wave back. They can spit on my boots, or give me a glare, or emote out ignoring me. But I like seeing that the player isn't ignoring my RP, OOCly, regardless of the IC results, get it? It's not about courtesy so much as it is a reaction-- any reaction-- so long as it's in-character.
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But I like seeing that the player isn't ignoring my RP, OOCly, regardless of the IC results, get it?
How would you have this enforced?
And how isn't ignoring by ignoring the perfect acting?
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Do I think roleplaying should be more strictly enforced...
I was recently in Hydlaa plaza listening to someone shout the song 'barbie world' *clicks yes*
Do I think it should be enforced beyond blatant disregard for the rules, no, not really... I think roleplay should be encouraged more? Yes, yes I do...
My theory on life is as long as their not bothering anybody else let them do what they want... think it should be the same with roleplay... my thoughts are jumbled right now, sorry for the incoherentness, 7 day patrols while replacing sleep with dip isn't good for johnny, sorry :P
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Like I said: I want to know the player acknowledges me. Sure, we might have a hundred perfect little actors who are just the bestest at ignoring people and are all better RPers than me...
...Or the players could not be paying attention, or flat out ignoring out-of-character. There's really no way of telling.
As for enforced... never said enforced. In fact, I never even suggested that there was a way for it to be enforced. It's the sort of thing that can't be enforced, but comes naturally when the effort is made to focus more on roleplaying. If you're asking me about how I personally would fix the problem... I don't know. I answered the question on the poll and gave my reasons, then defended my reasons. Pick apart all you want, but there's absolutely nothing else you can take from what I've said. Re-read my previous posts if you want, because there's nothing I can say now that won't be repeating myself.
@Mythryndel: I get a little agitated, because most of what you took from my original post were things I didn't even say, and certainly didn't mean. (Especially the bit about helping newbies and 'maxed out stats'.) But I've seen names like the one I mentioned... so mabye the GM team isn't doing as much about the names as I'd like them to. Which is why I voted 'yes'. And in the end, this isn't about you, or what you personally do. You might be setting a good example, but not everyone is like you in their actions.
I'll leave with this: The fact that exceptions exist, and the fact that I can't come up with a solution, is no evidence that there isn't a problem or that no effort should be made to solve it. I won't simply say "It's not my job to figure out how to fix this," but I truly, honestly, have no practical advice. If I figure out how to make things better, I'll certainly send the devs a jingle.
Oh, and here's your booby prize, Khoridor: You win, I lose, congratulations. :sleeping:
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I voted yes because I chew fried beetlebooth.
Yeah, I couldn't think of any long, philosophical paragraphs to type...
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I voted "yes" despite not being particularly fond of 'enforcing' roleplay. That will only tick people off.
It's the encouraging roleplay that I'm saying yes to. If you want to do nothing but outmax your stats, that's fine by me as long as you don't grief me over playing out scenes that mechanics doesn't support whatsoever and possibly (and this happens often) neglecting working at my stat-related goals because I'm involved in a plot. However, if you want to give this whole roleplaying thing a shot, you've got my support.
Also, there's nothing wrong with frequenting the tavern, in my humble opinion. XP
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But I've seen names like the one I mentioned... so mabye the GM team isn't doing as much about the names as I'd like them to. Which is why I voted 'yes'.
There is a lot of digression through this page, but I got my answer here.
Oh, and here's your booby prize, Khoridor: You win, I lose, congratulations. :sleeping:
??
well at least I just learned a new word, although I have no idea if its supposed to be condescending or not.
For me, the only place I find names out of context is in the guild ranks, and since it's only as a result of /who, I don't make much of it.
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Well, something else I meant by my earlier comment was that people, even while roleplaying, will interrupt roleplaying with out of character words and actions.
player1 : [zomg, this is such a good RP!]
player2: [lol, I'm taking a screenshot]
And so on. Maybe Xillix is talking about cracking down on stuff like that during GM events?
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The answer is obvious, like I've been telling you guys for a while now.
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I try to keep personal OOC to myself, and if OOC overtakes the RP, I sometimes suggest a group for OOC discussion. Obviously I slip up sometimes, but then, I'm human (even if my characters aren't)
I said yes as my answer, not because I have anything against grinders and so-called PLers, but because I believe that RP should be more prevalent. Leveling and RPing can coexist. Right now it can be a little hard because grinding takes up a lot of time, but even still, I think everyone should be expected to remain in character, whether they choose to RP or not. I also think maybe an 'OOC' channel may be an idea? With an option to show it in the 'Main' tab. However, brackets should still be used just in case. But this would rid people of OOC in RPs if they wished, and Non-RPers could live in peace without RPers getting annoyed at them for being OOC. There could be a setting in the ingame chat options to choose the channel your normal text shows in, with 'OOC' or the 'Main' channel. This way, Non-RPers could easily use that as their 'Main' while RPers have 'Main' nice and clean, and can use the 'OOC' channel just like anyone else.
If that were implemented, I think regulating the OOC at GM events and such would be easier, and RPers would be happier, and Non-RPers would be left in relative peace.
There would of course be some room for error for new players who wouldn't necessarily know of this. Perhaps, rather than suggesting roleplay in the tutorial, saying that staying in character is a RULE, and that OOC chat must go into the OOC channel is a RULE.
I'm not certain how hard/easy any of that would be to create, but maybe as a future idea...
Enforcing roleplay directly, like, telling a non-RPer he can't play because he is not a roleplayer, would be rather rude and a little to far. After all, roleplay is not the ONLY purpose of the game, it is just highly encouraged, and I believe it should remain that way. What should be focused on is the encouragement of RP. There are many people that would be willing to RP if it was explained to them more thoroughly. I doubt that most people actually read that part of the tutorial (I didn't, really, when the tutorial was first made). So perhaps more of something you have to read before the tutorial or after it, and you have to wait a certain amount of time AND scroll to the bottom to go through. Make the words somewhat large, people would be more likely to read it (unlike EULAs when installing software, which most people never read).
EDIT: Wow, I think that's one of my longest posts on these kinds of threads yet >.>
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I forgot to mention I did not vote. It is just like voting for the president, it does not really matter, we all know who will win even if we do not vote. Just as we know the outcome of this pole. In any case it is just a senseless thing to do.
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we all know who will win ...
'we' minus one, thank you
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If no one voted for any president candidate (and I mean no one), who would win the election? I'm not much into politics, but I guess with absolutely no votes at all none of the candidates would win...
Anyways, those polls do make sense, they help the devs see what the players think about the topic at hand and the devs can then consider working on those things. If no one voted on those polls, or everyone voted for snorks, then it indeed would be senseless to even have those polls.
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I forgot to mention I did not vote. It is just like voting for the president, it does not really matter, we all know who will win even if we do not vote. Just as we know the outcome of this pole. In any case it is just a senseless thing to do.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M-vCyQRBEwU
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How vulgar your link is Socius Rockus!
Vonor past experience shows that the Devs will do as they please no matter what we think or say anyway.
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Youtube doesn't censor it, so it's not vulgar :lol:
Don't talk bad about devs.
Besides, this question involves more the GMs then the Devs. ;)
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Not bad, Socius Rockus, just truthful.
The GM team does try to do their best. It is not an easy job that I would ever want. Sometimes how they handle things are not always to everyone's liking. As I said it is a hard job.
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Besides, this question involves more the GMs then the Devs. ;)
Hardly. Roleplaying consistently means roleplaying according to the setting. If RP is to be enforced in a better way, Devs and GMs will both be held accountable for the success of the moderation, the previous responsible for the actual space allowed for roleplay and the latter considering how people are kept within those limits.
I don't understand why someone would excuse themselves for saying "Yes." Play the game for a week, now tell me how many characters you've seen that have demonic features or magical shadows of doom around them.
Then, I don't think we need to invent anything to get a better RP enforcement. It's as simple as warning the GM's to the new types of behaviour they should be looking for. This obviously means that GM's would have to be completely aware of the setting. If they were, then it would be obvious to them when people are abusing (by exaggeration or complete distortion of the settings, or by bypassing/automating other character's actions).
All in all, this "extra" (I'd call it "necessary" though) moderation would not introduce anything new. "Being OOC" and "behaving good" are all as subjective concepts as "Roleplaying Consistently" is. So, this is not about setting a new type of moderation, but just implementing "consistency" into the current moderated behaviours, therefore only increasing the volume of work and not its nature (as some lazy-minded-individuals imply by saying it's impossible to know who roleplays consistently or not.) As always what constitutes "Roleplaying Consistently" is a field left to the Developers and GM's, just like "Being OOC" and "Behaving Good" is.
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I forgot to mention I did not vote. It is just like voting for the president, it does not really matter, we all know who will win even if we do not vote. Just as we know the outcome of this pole. In any case it is just a senseless thing to do.
Of course, why vote when you can dismiss the devs' efforts to get to know what the community thinks. This attitude is not constructive, Mathy. You keep talking and talking about being nice to each other, building a better community, bringing back the good vibe... well, guess what? not gonna happen if you already think PS is doomed and players can't do anything about it. Now, how about we all pitch in to make this a better game and try to be a bit more constructive?
How vulgar your link is Socius Rockus!
Vonor past experience shows that the Devs will do as they please no matter what we think or say anyway.
And past experience shows that players will complain no matter what devs do, think, or say anyway, especially about things devs, GMs and mods have got nothing to do with.
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I forgot to mention I did not vote. It is just like voting for the president, it does not really matter, we all know who will win even if we do not vote. Just as we know the outcome of this pole. In any case it is just a senseless thing to do.
Of course, why vote when you can dismiss the devs' efforts to get to know what the community thinks. This attitude is not constructive, Mathy. You keep talking and talking about being nice to each other, building a better community, bringing back the good vibe... well, guess what? not gonna happen if you already think PS is doomed and players can't do anything about it. Now, how about we all pitch in to make this a better game and try to be a bit more constructive?
How vulgar your link is Socius Rockus!
Vonor past experience shows that the Devs will do as they please no matter what we think or say anyway.
And past experience shows that players will complain no matter what devs do, think, or say anyway, especially about things devs, GMs and mods have got nothing to do with.
Maybe the loss of so many good people lately has made me give up the old fight for what I thought was right at the time. So maybe I do have a bad attitude towards things, Dajoji. It is the circumstances that make it so. Yet I did feel compelled to make my post here, yes I did. There are so many things yet to say and maybe it is best not to voice them. Right not all I feel is sadness and I hope PS is going in the right direction for the players that are left so no one else feels they must leave do to conflicts also.
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By making such posts you're hardly helping your stated cause. "I'm all for improvement but it can't be done."
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So, is everyone that is posting here, seemingly in agreement that:
1. The rules cover conduct expected in-game, and should be enforced with respect to rudeness, non-settings compliant names (guild and character), etc.
2. Forcing people to "actively" RP is a bad idea.
3. Expecting PLAYERS to be courteous and in-character should be the norm. Players must be courteous, even if their character is rude.
4. How on earth do you enforce "better" RP beyond the obvious netspeak or rudeness issues addressed in 1 above?
Did I miss anything?
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If no one voted for any president candidate (and I mean no one), who would win the election? I'm not much into politics, but I guess with absolutely no votes at all none of the candidates would win...
Anyways, those polls do make sense, they help the devs see what the players think about the topic at hand and the devs can then consider working on those things. If no one voted on those polls, or everyone voted for snorks, then it indeed would be senseless to even have those polls.
In some countries, you can turn in a blank ballot if you don't like any of the candidates. If "no vote" gets the most votes, then a new election with new candidates is called.
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1. The rules cover conduct expected in-game, and should be enforced with respect to rudeness, non-settings compliant names (guild and character), etc.
If you mean that very obvious interuptions of roleplay and the settings should be responded to by game masters, I can agree with this.
2. Forcing people to "actively" RP is a bad idea.
Yes. We should stop people from hurting the roleplay environment, but we can't force people to roleplay. We can however do things to limit activities that are out of character, even when they don't directly hurt the roleplay environment.
3. Expecting PLAYERS to be courteous and in-character should be the norm. Players must be courteous, even if their character is rude.
There's a good thread on this topic called IC baddies versus OOC goodies or something. I think we need room for evil characters, evil actions, and rudeness. I think that it's extremely tricky though. A character who spits is one thing. A character who spits on others is something else, even when it's supposed to be IC. Often, people will roleplay things like that, but only to characters controlled by players they don't like. And often it's completely unnecessary anyway. So maybe there should be strict limitations on IC rudeness, especially since IC rudeness is often a disguise for OOC rudeness. There are many ways to roleplay dark, evil, or rude characters, and only some of them stand the chance of hurting OOC feelings unintentionally.
4. How on earth do you enforce "better" RP beyond the obvious netspeak or rudeness issues addressed in 1 above?
Addressing bad behaviours. Providing models of good behaviour.
Did I miss anything?
Yes, but there's so much to write on the topic that it probably isn't wise to address everything in a single post.
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Zanzibar... yup. That is what I meant. Largely, the rules and framework for enforcement exist, and should be able to address most serious issues.
Preventing any interference with a given RP... the only way I can see that happening is if a group that wants to RP, gets sent to their own instance of Y'liakum for the duration of the RP. That way they cannot possibly be bothered by anyone sneezing loudly in the plaza. Yes, I am exaggerating again, but only to illustrate a point.
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By interference, I mean OOC behaviour. Your roleplays should be vulnerable to in-character interuptions. If you act like other in-character roleplays and actions aren't happening, then you're breaking the rules of roleplay. If it's in character, and within the settings, and it's happening around you, then your character is aware of it and should respond to it in a way that's in keeping with the character.
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Zanzibar, I agree completely... I get so annoyed when I try to hop into some RP and someone says to me in a /tell, [We're doing an RP right now] as if they're trying to get me to back off, and they sometimes ignore you when you try to roleplay anyways. However, and I am guilty of this part myself, I consider newer players to be OOC, so when I am RPing and a newbie comes up to us to ask where they can kill something [unless they ask the question the right way to make it IC (without all the acronyms and such)] then I usually ignore them, usually doing so by standing very still and saying nothing. If it is not a busy RP I'll show them and stuff.
However, some characters are known for annoying others. These characters BARELY stay in settings and some of them even say OOC things. Often I put these common annoyances on my ignore list for a while.
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I am reading to figure out only as a "general temperature gauge" on the opinions of forum goers only. The poll is doubtless skewed, and intentionally vague. I still want an impression of how people feel.
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I feel angry when people don't roleplay on a game that emphasizes roleplay. Then the nonroleplayers get their way and turn it into an ordinary grinding game. But PS is low-budget and still in progress, so I think it would be foolish to not enforce RP. PS can't compete with other games, so might as well make it unique.
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Would you like to see roleplaying more strictly enforced and more highly encouraged on Laanx?
(I quote because it keeps changing; I'm not mad, I saw it, I swear :detective: )
Voted Yes after all, because the only word pulling to the 'no' is the first 'more'.
As to encouragements, there are plenty of ways to do that via game features improvements.
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what happens when laanx smites you?
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You go to the Death Realm I believe.
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When RP isn't enforced but instead "encouraged" not only does this game's uniqueness plummet (that uniqueness being the community that actually roleplays), but we invite every single lesser-being to play this game (Runescape kiddies looking for a free game, for example), which severely destroys any sort of enjoyment that can come from this game when more than one of them collaborates together. If RP is enforced, the people who DO want to roleplay don't need to be punished by the idiots who come in and try to ruin the fun.
And just to be clear, I'm NOT talking about "powerlevelers", since that term seems to be hated so much; I'm talking about people who run right into the middle of an RP gathering and start spamming emoticons/lol's and completely disrupt what's going on. Powerlevelers and those people are two different entities - the latter just happens to powerlevel as well as disrupt.
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Powerlevelling and true roleplaying are mutually exclusive.
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I agree. The problem is simply rude people, not power levelers. I don't think you will ever be able to pre-screen all of the rude people out of PS (or any other game). You just have to deal with them on a case by case basis.
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I agree. The problem is simply rude people, not power levelers. I don't think you will ever be able to pre-screen all of the rude people out of PS (or any other game). You just have to deal with them on a case by case basis.
No, people who don't roleplay are a problem if you're trying to create a roleplay game. Because if there are people who aren't roleplaying, they encourage other people to not roleplay.
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So... then you go back to the age-old question... why would the devs put all the time and effort into mechanics for PS, if there was never any intention to have character interaction beyond typing stories to each other?
Please, do not misunderstand my post. I am not saying that there is no value to RP, or that it is not enjoyable. But I am trying to make a point that the mechanics are there to be used. The devs did not waste countless hours trying to make these things available, so that a bunch of people could act superior and belittle those that wanted to play PS as a game, not a interactive storybook. NON-rude PLers can often turn into RPers. But, rude players... well... RP or PL... are just rude and are going to upset everyone.
I think that as long as PLAYERS, regardless of the characters nature, are polite, that the two extremes (and everyone in-between) can co-exist just fine.
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Wait, why can't roleplayers use mechanics?
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The "pure roleplayers" I've known in game don't use the mechanics, but I think that's silly as well. You should use the mechanics so long as the mechanics are within the settings.
Frankly, most roleplayers in PlaneShift ignore the settings. The settings say that we start off as nothings, then we work our way to being somebodies. Meanwhile, roleplayers enter the game and immediately start acting like they're the most powerful wizard in the world. Or they act like they have positions because they say they have them (bartender, city guard, etcetera). Or at least people were doing that two years ago.
Maybe PlaneShift shouldn't be thought of as a pure roleplaying game, but I think the developers should weigh in on the discussion....
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I consider myself on of those 'pure roleplayers...' but I use mechanics, also all those I play with do too to an extent.. and we all try to remain in settings... best we can. Yes there are things we 'make up' to add to our fun, but nothing so drastic that it is so OOC that it is unacceptable.
as to RPing you are a city guard, or a bartender - I don't see any problem with that - so long as you are not 'godmodding' on others, and if you are RPing something like that - you adhere to the settings strictly.
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I consider myself on of those 'pure roleplayers...' but I use mechanics, also all those I play with do too to an extent.. and we all try to remain in settings... best we can. Yes there are things we 'make up' to add to our fun, but nothing so drastic that it is so OOC that it is unacceptable.
as to RPing you are a city guard, or a bartender - I don't see any problem with that - so long as you are not 'godmodding' on others, and if you are RPing something like that - you adhere to the settings strictly.
In other words, why so serious?
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I have said more times than I can count, that MOST people who play the game use both the mechanics, and stay in character. However, there are those that ONLY RP and do not have stats/skills to back up their RP (even where they are implemented). I would argue they have the potential to be just as disruptive as the pure PLer, if you truly believe that either is a problem.
I do not believe that just because someone is here for RP that they cannot or will not be rude and disruptive... just look at the recent guild house raid as the most recent evidence of that. I also have personally seen PLers that really don't want to do the "RP thing right now, but might try it later", that are still nice and courteous and not using "sup d00d" in main. So, what do the two extremes that are disruptive have in common? Anyone? Disregard for others in-game. But I don't know of any kind of personality filter you can put in at account creation to keep those people from having a chance to be disruptive, so there will always be some player that comes in and isn't in-character until chastised or they leave. I don't see where this needs any more dev time devoted to it at this point in the PS life cyle. However, this is simply my opinion. Do with it what you will.
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Rude people are bad. Shocking, but true, I know. But that's not what the discussion nor poll is about.
No, people who don't roleplay are a problem if you're trying to create a roleplay game. Because if there are people who aren't roleplaying, they encourage other people to not roleplay.
Zanzibar said it best. No one will disagree with you that rude and disruptive people are -a- problem, Mythryndel, but they aren't -the- problem at hand. This is about Planeshift in itself, and what kind of game it should try and be.
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I'm also a 'pure roleplayer'; well, I'd call it a purist. If, just through the mechanics, I could understand what characters are currently doing, without reading the chat box, I'd find it brilliant. Imagine dozens of animated emotes; to realise that this guy, standing still with a weapon in hand, is actually repairing it; etc. All right, I'm a bit off topic.
Back on enforcing things: I read on the forum of another game, also very RP oriented, that they go as far as to forbid the use of slang words like 'hi', or 'ok'. That is, for me, enough reason not to even try that game. PlaneShift offers a great level of freedom; the rules are mostly there to protect the immersive aspect. It doesn't matter to me if one plays more using the chat box or the mechanics; at the end of the day, we play the same game. What matters is that we use them without disrupting our common denominator: the setting.
[EDIT:]
Frankly, most roleplayers in PlaneShift ignore the settings. The settings say that we start off as nothings, then we work our way to being somebodies. Meanwhile, roleplayers enter the game and immediately start acting like they're the most powerful wizard in the world. Or they act like they have positions because they say they have them (bartender, city guard, etcetera). Or at least people were doing that two years ago.
Yes, but...
I will agree with you when the game is complete, or advanced enough. Currently, some liberty has to be taken to portray many characters that are in setting, but not yet playable. Example: the thieves PCs. Example: Khoridor may well be one of the most powerful glassblowers in the world (with a skill score to backup such a claim). I find someone playing a bartender perfectly in setting (it cannot possibly be disruptive; as long as it's not, say, a vampire bartender).
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So it's either you RP or you are against PS?
What I don't understand is how someone who is not interrupting your RP is damaging the game. They may be perfectly respectful yet quietly swinging a pick and you seem to find that offensive. By wanting to exclude these players you are the ones hurting the project as we need more testers who can not only explore all the features of the game (and that includes the leveling system) and recommend the project to their peers so the community can grow but also who in time might become good RPers as well.
The way I see it, the game is not for RPers only. It is a Roleplaying game but there's a difference there. While the first excludes all non-rpers, the latter encourages all kinds of players to try to RP, even those who do not have the skills yet (be that because they are new to RP or because they don't speak English very well). The important thing is that all players respect RP and the community.
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I demand roleplayers WORK to roleplay!
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First, I'll answer the question directly. No. Using force of any kind to get people to conform is not productive in an environment such as this. Also, I am of the opinion that there is little more that can be done to encourage RP, other than what is being done currently (tutorial, player guideline, this forum). Anymore encouragement and we start bordering on enforcement.
The solution to this problem is not an easy one. PlaneShift is put out there for anyone to download and use. Now let's look at the term "anyone" for a second. Do you realise how many different types of people there are in the world. Of all the millions of people who are able access the game, no two people are the same. So this begs the question, how on earth do you create a game that will be enjoyable to everyone. The answer, you can't. It is literally impossible to cater to everyone's needs.
This then leaves us with a few options. We could open our doors completely and let every j03 s04p in, and stop promoting ourselves as an "RP" game. In my opinion, this would mean that PlaneShift will lose it's uniqueness and the community I've come to know and love would more than likely disappear completely. Our other option is to close our doors a little more, filter new players more and smite those who deliberately obstruct the flow of RP in game. This would certainly improve things for the so called "heavy RPers", but we would introducing so much unnecessary negativity towards other people, not to mention increasing the workload of our already overworked GM and Dev team. I believe the game will become a frustrating experience, with people constantly on the lookout for the RP police.
Our last option is to keep things as they are, at least until the game develops into a state where RP and leveling run a bit more parallel. As a whole, our community is pretty tolerant of new players who do not yet understand RP. Let the heavy RPers RP heavily, Let the levelers level, Let casual RPers RP casually and let GM's smite those who cause trouble. The current system has worked for us so far, why change it?
It all comes down to personal attitude, if you allow your in game experience to be hindered by others, then the fault is your own. The trick, in any community, is to find your place, the place that makes you most comfortable and happy. If you are not happy with where you are at the moment, instead of trying to change the environment to suit yourself. Change yourself (attitude) to suit to the environment.
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Rude people are bad. Shocking, but true, I know. But that's not what the discussion nor poll is about.
I beg to differ. The vague opinion (I am summarizing, not saying people are being vague) in support of stricter enforcement of RP stated in this poll is that people that don't RP are disruptive. I don't see how people mining for hours is a problem, but it causes others to get upset. I have to wonder if these same people cannot possibly immerse themselves in their dinner, because there are people working in restaurants cooking food. There are going to be people working if Y'liakum is to be a "real" place and have a sustainable economy. If this is disruptive to your RP, or you feel that it is the wrong direction for PS... you are entitled to your opinion. However, I believe that the Devs disagree with you on this point.
What I have seen, is that certain players are disruptive. These players come from every range of players from only RPers to only PLers... and everywhere in-between. NOT just from people who do not RP.
Dajoji brought up a good point that I hadn't though of also. I don't frequently think about the players not being native English speakers. I can't imagine trying to make things even more unfriendly to those who don't speak (type) English very well, have to converse in perfectly spelled flowery dark ages type language. That is setting very unrealistic expectations on new and old players alike.
BTW... Eliseth... EXACTLY!!!!! That is my point almost exactly.
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Devs are making a game. RP is a chat interaction. If you can chat while playing the game, then great. If you can chat based upon what your character is in the game, then great. If you can chat in a manner that takes the world settings, other characters chat, and everything that is going on around you... then you might succeed at roleplaying in PlaneShift. Attempting to somehow enforce this behavior is going to go wrong. Focus on creating a finished game.
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So it's either you RP or you are against PS?
What I don't understand is how someone who is not interrupting your RP is damaging the game. They may be perfectly respectful yet quietly swinging a pick and you seem to find that offensive. By wanting to exclude these players you are the ones hurting the project as we need more testers who can not only explore all the features of the game (and that includes the leveling system) and recommend the project to their peers so the community can grow but also who in time might become good RPers as well.
But one can also argue that people who don't roleplay will scare other players away.
The way I see it, the game is not for RPers only. It is a Roleplaying game but there's a difference there. While the first excludes all non-rpers, the latter encourages all kinds of players to try to RP, even those who do not have the skills yet (be that because they are new to RP or because they don't speak English very well). The important thing is that all players respect RP and the community.
I think this is a ballanced way to look at it, and it's how I play.
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So it's either you RP or you are against PS?
What I don't understand is how someone who is not interrupting your RP is damaging the game. They may be perfectly respectful yet quietly swinging a pick and you seem to find that offensive. By wanting to exclude these players you are the ones hurting the project as we need more testers who can not only explore all the features of the game (and that includes the leveling system) and recommend the project to their peers so the community can grow but also who in time might become good RPers as well.
But one can also argue that people who don't roleplay will scare other players away.
Definitely not more than RPers who stop roleplaying to rudely "correct" other players and tell them how to do it "properly". An unwelcoming community can be the biggest barrier for a game to reach more users.
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So it's either you RP or you are against PS?
What I don't understand is how someone who is not interrupting your RP is damaging the game. They may be perfectly respectful yet quietly swinging a pick and you seem to find that offensive. By wanting to exclude these players you are the ones hurting the project as we need more testers who can not only explore all the features of the game (and that includes the leveling system) and recommend the project to their peers so the community can grow but also who in time might become good RPers as well.
But one can also argue that people who don't roleplay will scare other players away.
Definitely not more than RPers who stop roleplaying to rudely "correct" other players and tell them how to do it "properly". An unwelcoming community can be the biggest barrier for a game to reach more users.
I agree with that as well. I remember the first day I played, I died (like most players). I walked onto the bridge, and I got yelled at by Platnya for interupting her RP experience when I asked how to get out. I kept playing the game obviously, but I didn't feel welcomed. Admitedly the fault was on me, but I didn't know better because I was new.
Still, correcting bad behaviours is important to do. It's just difficult to do it right.
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That is one thing I do not like about many roleplayers. They have this illusion that their 'RP's can not -nay!- should not be interrupted by anyone or anything, including other people's roleplaying. To them, I say "Fie!" and "Ne!".
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I demand a shrubbery.
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...Our last option is to keep things as they are, at least until the game develops into a state where RP and leveling run a bit more parallel...
You know... Eliseth is right. More than likely, once game mechanics have caught up with the story, RPing should come more naturally to new people. For example, say you have someone mining constantly, but when talking in game they mostly talk about getting ore, smelting and prices. Even though the person may not like officially RPing, they will be doing enough to not be disruptive.
Honestly, that's how I started. I remember resenting the need to RP but I love it. I got into by going with the flow even if I didn't want to RP. I don't think I was particularly disruptive in the beginning. I do think more should be done to enforce RP since it is in fact the thing that makes PS stand out, but it should still be a fairly moderate standard of RP.
It makes me think of the game Puzzle Pirates. it is not an RP game and yet people stay basically in "piratey" character on their own since there is enough game related stuff to talk about.
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I am generally encouraged by this thread - most people want to be inclusive of the new player, who has no idea of how to RP.. and generally most want to help them learn... surely - that is enough isn't it?
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I am generally encouraged by this thread - most people want to be inclusive of the new player, who has no idea of how to RP.. and generally most want to help them learn... surely - that is enough isn't it?
I don't know why it's always about new players. All new players I meet always RP. In fact, they probably come because it is a RP friendly game. That's how I found PS myself, and I advertise it to RPers.
There are mostly people who (think they) RP, while other people think these RPers don't RP (hence these debates on godmodders, elitists, levelers and 63 other categories). The difficulty is to be able to RP together. The first thing we need is to understand the setting in a similar way, as clearly as possible.
I try to play by example, and to act or talk always in setting (I prefer the use of IS than IC, because we don't know the other characters, so we don't know how they are supposed to be in character; ok, I digress again). Yet there are things that can be done only by a referee (checking names, stopping mechanics abuse, calming frustrated players...).
One other thing I would do to encourage (proper) RP, is to remove that (OOC) part of the description telling you that such character is a wimp or such character is unbeatable. How would I know that? And why would I care to know that? I'm not looking at this merchant to see if I can kick his derriere; if I want to measure a potential opponent, I'll have to watch him fight. And, more importantly, I won't have this wuss/demi-god idea towards newbies/PLers put inside my head.
My opinion is to Improve the mechanics to improve the RP, and keep the enforcement as it is. Every suggestion to encourage RP which has been posted earlier, I agree with, as long as it doesn't restrict the way that non-disruptive people RP.
I also strongly agree with Dajoli and Under the Moon's latest posts. Someone using brackets to tell you that he/she is currently RPing is highly disruptive. How to correct that kind of behavior? I have no idea.
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Well i do love it when people RP... But the thing is i am new and not so great at it... I had a struggle trying to act drunk correctly in keeping with my characters personality (although i think i will invent some tavern jokes and games later if i get a chance)
Now some players not participating irk's me slightly but rude players irritate me more... I would prefer help from a leet speaking but kind and well intended child as opposed to crusader who tries to skewer any outlander who scarcely speaks his language and only accepts an elite circle of guardians to be worthy to set foot on to his land. (this is not directed towards someone and i am not saying anyone here is like that)
Roleplay + 5 points
Kindness + 5 points
poor roleplay speaking - maximum number of points + 8 (given he follows the top two and how poor his ) minimum number -5 (anything below 1 deals with behavior)
Outright being mean to other players just because they do not RP (but do not intend any harm) to simply RPing poorly 0 to - 5 points (point variable depends on behavior)
Maturity (not lack of) + points
Now starting from rouge and earlier games... i have played hundreds if not thousands of games and i always wanted to find a (non text) RP game with what you here call "Game mechanics" so realize that i do not take people affecting my experience in it lightly... But i also think a person and their feelings should be valued above RP (and admittedly in some cases my point system shows that under some conditions i only hold a slight higher opinion for people who do not have the patience to try)
"Maybe a few less names like "Elfy Earpoint"."
I chose the last name Elvenspirit, now admittedly it's from getting fed up with trying to find an accessible name... But whenever i introduce myself it is done so with only my first name, i see no need to tell most people... If anyone my last name, My apologies if i took characters not knowing another's name till told too seriously... I was also trying to consider how hard it was to make my first name and how difficult it can get to find a unique name the more and more characters (not people... Characters) are made. Maybe i am guilty of breaking the rules :S My first name is certainly unique though and it is not as if Elven sub races do not exist :(
"The GM team does try to do their best. It is not an easy job that I would ever want. Sometimes how they handle things are not always to everyone's liking. As I said it is a hard job."
This is a very important point, and one many people NEVER even bother to consider. People have excessive expectations of others in authority positions, they are like us... Maybe there are guidelines like there often are for such positions of course, and probably a lot of them complain just as much about the players often not holding up their standards either (if they know it or not) maybe some innocent bystander who intended no harm even?
Of course a moderator in most games seems to be chosen partially by their ability to deal with such situations... But that does not mean that they are perfect - People view thing's differently or people make mistakes... I'm sure there are moderators or admins that go "Oh please tell me he/she did not say that" but for any person that has one idea there are normally at the very least an equal number of people that have a different look on it (and more often than not it's just a muddle of them)
This is what people need to look past, no matter how strongly you feel about something you need to consider more than yourself IF you wish to even attempt to make a considerate opinion.
"so when I am RPing and a newbie comes up to us to ask where they can kill something [unless they ask the question the right way to make it IC (without all the acronyms and such)] then I usually ignore them, usually doing so by standing very still and saying nothing. If it is not a busy RP I'll show them and stuff."
I say put information on how to get help in game with as much instructions on RP as possible, Direct them to a "New Player" guide that does just that (while only going OOC when absolutely a necessity... Do not overdo the RP and forsake lack of clarity)
I understand where you are coming from but understand that you are being just as unsocial (the player is doing it by not participating in the social activity and you by not being social in return)
"but we invite every single lesser-being to play this game"
... That comment is just unforgivable, you have no right to assume you are better than someone... Yes if someone does something criminal such as mugging then what they did was wrong, no i would not want to associate with that person... But they are not less than human and you are not more than human.
"Runescape kiddies looking for a free game, for example"
There are more people (not a larger percent...) that try to roleplay in that game than are even in this game... And i have met a great deal of wonderful people that play that game. No i do not like the general community, but let's get thing's straight... If this game had such a large community then it would be extremely difficult if not impossible (even with being aggressive) to keep the population well behaved, yes admittedly it is partially because this game is free - and i do not think this community would fall that low... But i think a certain awareness should be kept that the first step in a community like that is a progressive decline in friendliness and respect for the common player. I understand how you came to your view... But he without sin throw the first stone. (no i am not religious but i think the point is sound as long as you understand it)
"I also have personally seen PLers that really don't want to do the "RP thing right now, but might try it later","
And that's a mixed bag i think, i am sure most of us would love to see them RP
"Definitely not more than RPers who stop roleplaying to rudely "correct" other players and tell them how to do it "properly". An unwelcoming community can be the biggest barrier for a game to reach more users."
And this goes both ways, a non roleplayer should probably try to make an effort to make a roleplayer feel welcome also, i feel that this is the center of this debate... Keep in mind though that both sides are guilty, it would be sad for this issue to turn into a witch hunt :(
I realize there are others who have felt as i do and gotten fed up with thing's, and that is something that saddens me. But realize that instead of trying to rally the support of GM's to force the change we should try even harder to encourage other's to RP, i do not mean to force other's into RP - i mean let's try to structure everything as best as possible to make it easier for other's to roleplay, Then maybe with GM help try to make it so people who choose not to roleplay can fit into the game somehow and still be in character... The only solutions i can see involve either hand signals or unique area's and such for non RP'ers, the latter i do not like as it discourages RP and the former may be too harsh unless thorough (with the option for RPers to "speak their language")
Now encouraging non RP'ers to participate with RP'ers in activities? Maybe. I do think a better solution though would be to create conduct rules... With the condition that players must keep borderline in chat when answering questions - just specific in game answers like i do not like mining or the square is that way, mundane responses sure... But while it is my choice if i wish to discuss my life with someone, i do think it should be discouraged... And i also think better spelling should be encouraged... This is both helpful for foreign players and children who may be learning from our community.
In essence, encourage maturity safety and clarity... I realize my grammar is not the best and i apologize for that, and i also apologize for being long winded -.-
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I think the problem with the whole 'his RP, her RP, my RP', rather than all coexisting, is that people form 'RP circles'. They have a group of people and these are the only people they actively RP with. Sometimes they add new people or meet new people from another person's circle who also happens to be in their own, but rarely do people go out of their way to join other RP circles. Of course, at some point, all of these RP circles join with another few and make a sort of chain. But in the end, there is still groups who do an RP and a totally different group is basically shunned from it if their RP is different.
Personally, i try not to fall into these groups, and try to unite them. I do this by having over 20 characters and trying to get each one into a different circle and then trying to bring other circles together. As Farren, I have managed to join form my own little 'circle' and our circle sort of floats through other peoples' circles, and we all interact with just about anyone. It takes time, but if more people were to do this rather than keep to themselves, RP might be more shared between people.
One of the main killers of RP is when a guild, which doesn't generally require its members to RP, mass recruits, recruiting any new player and that new player has that group, that guild, around it all the time and they rarely see RP and thus don't RP themselves. While this is fine [not everyone should be required to focus on or like roleplaying], I do believe staying in character in the main chat channel should be enforced. My earlier suggestion (which everyone seems to have entirely ignored) of an OOC chat tab would make this much easier to enforce and comply with. [ Link to post: http://hydlaa.com/smf/index.php?topic=33964.msg390221#msg390221 ]
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Sorry Farren, I could have sworn I made comment on that... I like the Idea, but the same reason that I would use brackets to converse with a new player is the same reason that the two chat tabs may not be as effective as one might hope. I think that overall, it would be a very good thing. As long as people are willing to overlook a new player who is just getting familiar with the game. Or, and this might upset almost everyone with an RP focus, make the RP tab opt-in and the OOC tab the default. The first time a new account clicks on the RP tab, have it pop up a message to the user... maybe I am taking this too far for a theoretical discussion, but I do like the idea in general.
The only other concern I have with the OOC tab is that if newer players do use it to ask questions, are older players going to bother checking it? The tutorial and forums constantly tell people to ask other players for information, and asking about "how" to do something is always OOC because there aren't mouse buttons or dialog windows in Y'liakum. I've been creative in responding, keeping as IC (IS?) as possible, but at some point you have to mention specific clicks or whatnot.
I know this is a bit off topic, but as it was mentioned... spamming guild invites is highly annoying. I have kindly declined several from players interacting with me face to face, but when I receive them via tells and have never even seen the player that is trying to recruit me... that just frustrates me to no end. RP or no RP, I find that annoying.
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As far as the community being divided. pish posh.
If we were only Rpers we would be playing a forum based game devoid of graphics. If we were only PLers we would play some other MMORPG and spend our hard earned money on treats for our characters.
I have seen Awesome Rpers Power level and the most die hard power levelers RPing.
We are here in lovely PS a nice mix of both. Fact is a player may lean more to one end of the scale or the other, but to think of us as divided pff not true there is a litttle RPer and a little PWRlvler in all of us.
Personally I took the spirit of this thread as this : Do the Rpers want to have to scroll through lines and lines of OOC conversation in the middle of an RP or do we want someone to give a tap on the shoulder to say "hey DOWN IN FRONT" ya know
so long as it doesn't get "Big Brother" I'm fine with that.
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One other thing I would do to encourage (proper) RP, is to remove that (OOC) part of the description telling you that such character is a wimp or such character is unbeatable. How would I know that? And why would I care to know that? I'm not looking at this merchant to see if I can kick his derriere; if I want to measure a potential opponent, I'll have to watch him fight. And, more importantly, I won't have this wuss/demi-god idea towards newbies/PLers put inside my head.
Fair enough, but I know that one of my characters can't tell if anyone is more powerful than her or not, where as my other one can... (I think this must be due to some kind of stat, but after comparing my two characters stats together I can't figure it out xD I'll find out one day *shakes fist*) so I take it as how much your character notices about other people.
Anyway, I voted Snork, read a bit then changed it to Yes. Yes, more strictly enforced and more highly encouraged roleplay would be great. Especially when Xillix said enforced could mean rewards and not just punishment. Rewarding and encouraging roleplay sounds good to me. I really don't see a downside to that. "It's good to do this, you see?" but not "You have to do this." I'm fairly sure that's how it is now, but yeah. A bit more love and care and gentle pushes towards roleplay can't go bad, from my point of view.
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(sorry but I don't have time to read the whole thread so sorry if this was answered)
By "enforcing" roleplay, do you mean making people RP or punishing RP done in an ooc manner?
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Yes, unless you are just simply leveling and don't wish to interest yourself in RP as of yet.
More GMs would be necessary for this, however. As of now, there are only some dedicated GMs. (those we have now)
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voted no... who wants to feel like they are walking on thin ice 24/7. if you break rp you already get swamped by people telling you what to do or asking you to not talk ooc or whatever.
the only thing more strict could be getting killed or a kick from the server..would drive people away. especially people who dont RP overly well. might make them a bit nervous to even speak
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especially people who dont RP overly well. might make them a bit nervous to even speak
There is a difference between not roleplaying well and refusing to roleplay, someone poor but is trying will always be helped/tutored/pointed in the right direction and never kicked
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especially people who dont RP overly well. might make them a bit nervous to even speak
There is a difference between not roleplaying well and refusing to roleplay, someone poor but is trying will always be helped/tutored/pointed in the right direction and never kicked
What if someone is roleplaying in a way that is harmful?
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Maybe y'all should conduct another poll like this that actually explains what the choices are... A lot of people don't seem to understand what they're voting for.
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Zanzi: in that case, we try to explain nicely that their RP is not 'proper' (if they use OOC topics or something), or otherwise what is wrong with it and try to help them improve. If they refuse to do so.... that's called willful disobedience :P In that case they can just not RP or get talked to by a GM :P
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What's all this wind blown about? Xillix did a great thing asking for people's opinion on this, it clearly points towards the objective of having consistent roleplay implemented in the game.
It doesn't matter if a person just levels (i.e. powerleveler) or if it just stands in the tavern all day (i.e. roleplayer), just as long as that person behaves in the correct way (i.e. speaks IC and has a consistent character).
If you don't agree that a person can be the most powerful Cook, Mage and Fighter at the same time, complain about the mechanics that allow this, it doesn't have a thing to do with RP enforcing or settings.
And what is the correct way? What is considered "consistent roleplay"? Let the same people that decided what is considered "offensive behaviour" and "out of character chat" decide. You haven't been complaining about their job in those fields lately, so I can't see any reasons to predict a disaster for this new thing.
It should work like it currently does. A player abuses, it gets warned, keeps abusing, gets banned. Simple. We could spend days imagining, guessing and argueing about hipothetic results, but we should stick with this: people want better Roleplay enforcement and the PS Team (who seems interested) should try something about that. If it works, great, if it doesn't, oh well. We're just testers anyway.
Maybe y'all should conduct another poll like this that actually explains what the choices are... A lot of people don't seem to understand what they're voting for.
voted no... who wants to feel like they are walking on thin ice 24/7. if you break rp you already get swamped by people telling you what to do or asking you to not talk ooc or whatever.
I agree Raa. This friend here is obviously confused. If you have GM's telling you things, you will stop being swamped by people who really don't know what they're talking about and getting some real help from the ones that should be lending it.
Man, I'd love to see this through.
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You know Xillix, I was thinking about it and I think this poll maybe a bit misleading. (I say the following as a roleplayer) I don't think the people voting represent the in game sample very well. Most (but not all) of the people who come to the forum are probably RPers and they would most likely vote yes. However, in game I think it would be split more evenly if not in favor of not enforcing RP more.
PS has more new people right now, and not that some won't go on to become Rpers, but usually in the beginning they won't RP so much and will possible resent having RP enforced. I know, I felt that way in the beginning. Whereas I have only once ran into someone bothering to correct my RPing (in the last 3 years I've been playing) I can see where some people may run into it more.
Perhaps having GMs do the bulk of the correcting would make the transition to more enforcement easier. But, although I like the idea more enforcement. It would still need to be pretty mild so as not to run off any new players. Especially with older one not playing as often. ::)
Maybe having a RPing guide in the player guide would help. Goodness knows I was at a loss as to how to RP in the beginning. And most new players probably won't realize they can look up the tutorial guide to RP in their logs. Not to mention it is brief. If there was a guide that gave guidelines for different situations in Yliakum it might make it easier for new people and get older people to let more things slide as "their standard" may not be accurate compared to the guide.
For instance, would enkis, being "always suspicious of strangers at the beginning", bother to initiate greeting someone. Or, if someone greeted them, would most be inclined to make small talk. I'm not asking for hard and fast rules but an official precedent would help I think.
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You know Xillix, I was thinking about it and I think this poll maybe a bit misleading. (I say the following as a roleplayer) I don't think the people voting represent the in game sample very well. Most (but not all) of the people who come to the forum are probably RPers and they would most likely vote yes. However, in game I think it would be split more evenly if not in favor of not enforcing RP more.
playing) I can see where some people may run into it more.
All polls are like that. An example would be the recent presidential election in the US. You have the citizens who actively participate, and then you have the lazy fat lards, illegal aliens, and conspiracy theorists. Their fault if they don't vote.
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You know Xillix, I was thinking about it and I think this poll maybe a bit misleading. (I say the following as a roleplayer) I don't think the people voting represent the in game sample very well. Most (but not all) of the people who come to the forum are probably RPers and they would most likely vote yes. However, in game I think it would be split more evenly if not in favor of not enforcing RP more.
Who in the community (who doesn't get on the forums) wouldn't vote No, then? The reason is, aside from the people who calmly smelt to themselves, there are people who run around disrupting things and causing a scene that makes everyone around them want to facepalm. These are the people who definitely need to be addressed, and since they wouldn't want that to happen, they'd vote No if they even knew about this poll.
Now as for the problem with new players, roleplay being enforced doesn't mean you'll get the banhammer if you "do something wrong". If the person simply doesn't know how to, or doesn't know what RP means, the GM that intervenes could set them in the right direction, and I'm pretty sure everyone will be happy. And if that person doesn't want to RP, they can either look into the...smelting, or whatever they want to do, or decide it isn't for them and move on. But no one has the right to run around and disrupt others who ARE trying to roleplay.
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Isn't there a tutorial that new players have to go through?
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Who in the community (who doesn't get on the forums) wouldn't vote No, then? The reason is, aside from the people who calmly smelt to themselves, there are people who run around disrupting things and causing a scene that makes everyone around them want to facepalm. These are the people who definitely need to be addressed, and since they wouldn't want that to happen, they'd vote No if they even knew about this poll.
Just because you don't roleplay doesn't mean you are disruptive. I did nothing but grind and attempt to find my way around town my first year or so in PS and I didn't bother anyone. And I didn't join the forums right away because it wasn't necessary. For some people this is just a game to fill up 5 mins worth of time and they aren't trying to get that involved right away. So enforcing mildly would run less chance of scaring away new people.
Now as for the problem with new players, roleplay being enforced doesn't mean you'll get the banhammer if you "do something wrong". If the person simply doesn't know how to, or doesn't know what RP means, the GM that intervenes could set them in the right direction, and I'm pretty sure everyone will be happy. And if that person doesn't want to RP, they can either look into the...smelting, or whatever they want to do, or decide it isn't for them and move on. But no one has the right to run around and disrupt others who ARE trying to roleplay.
The people I am worried about in regards to enforcing Rp aren't the GM's. It's the Rpers who take it upon themselves to "help" the GM's and can become as disruptive as the non RPers.
It's like when people use /shout for help and people /shout back to stop being an idiot and not to use shout. However, when there are no advisors on, which happens frequently, you get (at least you used to) a message that specifically told you to use /shout to ask for help. Now the poor person has a conflict of information and people who are techincally right about the rule yelling at them and being rude. Mind you they are not doing anything helpful just being mean to the new person. Not to mention using /shout to tell someone not to use it is like whacking a kid in the back of the head and saying "we don't hit people to solve our problems." Especially since you can use a tell.
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There is Zanzibar. And I actually think it should be one of the main RP enforcing tools, but unfortunately people probably get way too busy trying to tell the NPCs what they want to hear to bother with RP.
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Just because you don't roleplay doesn't mean you are disruptive. I did nothing but grind and attempt to find my way around town my first year or so in PS and I didn't bother anyone. And I didn't join the forums right away because it wasn't necessary. For some people this is just a game to fill up 5 mins worth of time and they aren't trying to get that involved right away. So enforcing mildly would run less chance of scaring away new people.
aside from the people who calmly smelt to themselves, there are people who run around disrupting things and causing a scene that makes everyone around them want to facepalm.
I never said people who don't roleplay are disruptive... -.-
Illysia, when you play the game, do you look at how many people sit calm and quietly at the furnace to themselves, and help when people ask? Those people are FINE, and those ARE NOT the people that I was talking about when I said "disruptive". The people I'M talking about, are the ones who run straight into the middle of a roleplay group (not to call out names, but Eldemar) and say and do things that should really be kept under a watchful eye and punished when...they happen. >.>
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I think the point most people here are trying to make, is that individual players that are disruptive should be handled in the manner already established. In the case of someone being a real jackass... /report them if there is no GM at the time, and they both can, and will (given that the GMs agree with your assessment of disruptive behavior) be reprimanded. Get too many strikes, and get asked to leave... This is actually a very simple process, and anyone who spends significant time RPing in-game and hanging around on the forums should know this by now.
I know that a lot of people do not want to burden the GMs with things like disrupting RP, which feels petty. However, as I believe was stated earlier in this thread, that is one of the duties they sign up for by accepting the mantle of GM. I think that, in general, criticism of a characters actions in-game will be taken more seriously when it comes from a GM than if it comes from a player. I for one find it difficult to keep in tongue (figuratively speaking) in check when someone complains about weapons in hydlaa for the hundredth time... just outside the entrance to the Arena.
Slightly off-topic... but, If there were a staging area, outside of the inventory main boxes where you could have the armor/weapons slots (so you don't have to worry about stacked or not)... and a /equip [weapons|armor] and /dequip [weapons|armor] I think a lot more people would take the no weapons in Hydlaa rule seriously. In Akkaio, it is nearly required to have weapons, unless you have sufficiently high Melee skill... as rats and rogues come out of nowhere and attack you. The sewers in Hydlaa are no different... or the areas just outside of town... Especially if people are just passing through, it is a hassle to move your weapons just for a 60 second jog through town. I do this regularly (and try to remember to dequip my weapons). Does this excuse people from threatening you with said weapons... or running around saying "lolz.. OMG... whatever... :)".. no. But if all they are doing is carrying weapons in-town... I tend to overlook it at the present time.
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You can make a shortcut to equip and dequip your weapons too, Mythryndel, and assign a key so you can do it even faster. Something like:
/equip dagger
/equip dagger
and
/dequip dagger
/dequip dagger
Now, back on topic, people have different levels of tolerance when it comes to disruptive players but also the notion that someone is acting OOC can be relative. If you assume they are doing what they are doing because they want to annoy you it is much easier to read their actions as entirely OOC while if you assume that they are not seasoned RPers and they are making learning mistakes you might have more patience with them. The question is, how fast do you take offense and how do you react to it? Sometimes, people do overreact.
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@Dajoji WOW... it works well. I thought I had read something about how those didn't work correctly because of stacking... or to avoid using them because of stacking weapons... but it works!!! Maybe there should be a default shortcut set up for emptying the left and right hands?
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I don't think the people voting represent the in game sample very well. Most (but not all) of the people who come to the forum are probably RPers and they would most likely vote yes. However, in game I think it would be split more evenly if not in favor of not enforcing RP more.
I voted 'yes', but I did not have anything to say yet ;) I maxed all stats and 4 combat/magic skills. Does that mean I am a PLer? Should I have voted 'no'? I am confused :'(
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Wow Dajoji, I had no idea you could do that, that looks really useful. :thumbup:
I never said people who don't roleplay are disruptive... -.-
Illysia, when you play the game, do you look at how many people sit calm and quietly at the furnace to themselves, and help when people ask? Those people are FINE, and those ARE NOT the people that I was talking about when I said "disruptive". The people I'M talking about, are the ones who run straight into the middle of a roleplay group (not to call out names, but Eldemar) and say and do things that should really be kept under a watchful eye and punished when...they happen. >.>
Shaman I've been playing this game for 3 years, I've seen almost every type of player in this game. ;) And Dajoji is right about the tolerance thing. For what it is worth, that is what ignoring people is for and in the case you can't do that /ignore.
Sometimes I find other people's RP irritating, but even if it is slightly disruptive, it doesn't automatically make it wrong or worth bothering a GM. Like a big argument in the tavern can make it hard for the other people to RP just like in real life it diverts attention. But, it doesn't mean it is automatically wrong. If that happens, you can /ignore and tune them out like people do in RL, get up and leave, or ICly say something. You can deal with some stuff through RP if the rp is the cause for complaint.
And Orgonwukh, you are just you. :P Maybe there should be an option to vote "Orgonwukh". ;D
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You can dequip by item name also myth. . .
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@Dajoji WOW... it works well. I thought I had read something about how those didn't work correctly because of stacking... or to avoid using them because of stacking weapons... but it works!!! Maybe there should be a default shortcut set up for emptying the left and right hands?
Stacking will take place but if you keep your regular weapons in the main inventory window and the others in sacks there shouldn't be a problem. You can also equip and dequip specific items like "reinforced battle axe of seduction" if that's the kind of weapon you use (not sure if you need the quotes but it works too one way or the other). I always used a "mighty morphing" shortcut to d/equip all weapons and armor pieces since I didn't like my chars to walk around in full gear all the time. You can also add a /me or /my line to the command if you wanna be theatrical or even cast a spell while you gear up.
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There are currently a few problems with dequiping several items in one go, but a bug fix for that will be in svn soon.
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Man, can't you guys focus?
All that matters is that the GM's should make an attempt at enforcing RP. Mainly because this is a Roleplay Game and not because some poll tells us so (even though both the poll and common sense are together on this one; If playing football is enforced when you're playing a football match [by the referees] so should RP be enforced when you're playing a RPG [by the moderators]).
However they do it, it's up with them. They've had enough hints over the years, so they should do fine.
And instead of thinking we're getting fascism here, consider that we're just making sure GM's make it so characters don't have horns where they shouldn't and that every player roleplays his own character (instead of typing "/me kills you") in a consistent way (according to settings and mechanics), without annoying people (avoiding abuses). Doesn't that sound like something we all want? Sure, so we have to give it a try.
Maybe I'd take out descriptions too, since most people can't use them (i.e. lots of people use them to post character's background or silly, impossible features.) In fact, I'd rather have "iconless", "sack-looking" items that would add "Is wearing *item*" to the description then having free editable descriptions that lead towards everyone having way too stupid descriptions. (Shadows hovering around, horns on Ylians, demon wings on diabolis, extra sexy characters, etc.) That's just me though, who cares, just as long as we have some nice moderation that can handle it. It would certainly reduce work though.
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Yup. Character descriptions are a big problem in the game.
Maybe we can have a new kind of game master? They would spend all their time fixing roleplay problems, so that the other game masters can look out for things like botting. Since they're making sure players don't go outside the settings or interfere with the atmosphere of the game, they could be called the "Settings Squad", or S.S. for short.
I'M JOKING!!!!!
I do want to see bad roleplay behaviors corrected. I think it would be wonderful if the game moderators were empowered to do more. I also think it's a very complicated problem, but we're creative people and can find creative solutions for it.
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how about more gm's and more gm involvement with rp's? take a different approach and surround the game around rp. if theres a fight in the middle of the town have a gm come over and figure out whats going on with a guard. if there is an rp fight maybe control the players so they give a better show.
encourage them by giving them more than
/greet
/smile
i can count the number of times a gm has gotten involved with my rp and afterwards everyone was so happy about it, and now today i see some of the ones that were noobs then have stayed and gotten way better.
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GM involvement in roleplay actually results in more bad than good. The reason for that is, a lot of people surround the GM, roleplayer or not, thinking they'll get a reward by participating. That isn't really the proper message to convey, as seen in many events.
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or the gm stays invisible.... like ive seen many times.
or you know have a toon they log into when they want to get involved and not use when they dont... like they do now i believe.
gm events are lame to the fullest we've all seen that. but ya having a bunch of people that surround to watch a big rp is a proper message. guess we'll stick to
/greet
/smile
/wave
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Again... what is with the caustic response? GMs can be logged in without having to be involved in an "event" that draws everyone to them like moths to a flame. GMs can keep the peace and enforce the rules, and do that a LOT more often than they hold events for the players to criticize until their finger get tired of typing...
The GMs, while not all as all-knowing as we might like, are here to help the game. They volunteer their time to helping move people who are stuck, investigate every complaint, and when they find the time... put on events. All to help the game be enjoyable for us, instead of playing it themselves. PLEASE take half a second to think about this before spewing your venom all over the forums about how lousy a job they do.
As to events attracting every tom, dick and harry in the game... it is because they bring something DIFFERENT to the game. Almost everything else in the game is incredibly static, and gets boring after a while. Some event happens, and people show up just to see what has changed or might change. It isn't to ruin your RP... or just to piss you off... it is to see something other than the same old stuff day in and day out. Can you really blame people for getting excited about something they don't get to see everyday? What if someone spray painted a lace teddy on the statue of liberty? Do you think people would just stay where they are and not want to get to see it with their own eyes?
I do not know the effort involved, but I would love to see many... um... storylines going on... for lack of a better way to of describing the idea. Have a handful of NPCs to support the actions... temporary quests... enough small things pulled together to get everyone involved. Have it last, even when GMs are not around to run it personally, for a few weeks... and determine the outcome (long-term change) based on player response...
But just sitting back complaining, without offering *constructive* criticism or ideas on how to fix it... is just not helping anything. And it isn't doing anything for people wanting to take your ideas or concerns seriously, as you seem to just want to gripe.
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/fanboy
and gm events fail.
everyone quick come look at me "insert story"
kill kill kill or
watch watch watch
over... reward.
haha i think i helped steal the people away on a gm event once and got yelled at for it.
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oh yeah... look at you... disrupting an RP event... and bragging about it... how is this helping?
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cuz my rp was better =)
to show that at the time people were already bored with the redundancy of gm events. because they dont pull people in with the great rp and storyline and action.
The reason for that is, a lot of people surround the GM, roleplayer or not, thinking they'll get a reward by participating. That isn't really the proper message to convey, as seen in many events.
had a good point there
Gm events fail... but gm participation in others rp events win. they can decide if the rp is valid and worth helping out to increase the fun.
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That is one motivation for people showing up... but most of the people I have run into in-game barely know what a GM is, let alone know that there might be a reward if one is seen moving around Y'liakum. The only event that I have seen or participated in was this Halloween, and it was a lot of fun. Don't know what events you have been around to come to the conclusions you have, but lead, follow, or get out of the way... just don't sit around complaining.
[EDIT] For the record, outside of getting to run around as a Maulbernaut for a couple of hours... and try an obstacle course in the DR... I got no "reward" for being involved in the event.
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lolz cuz thats not a reward. and i dont sit around complaining i try to get an rp going that will draw the attention away. im sure UTM likes a little competition =)
tho i have never really been good at coming up with a great story backround before an rp. i did seem to master a spontaneous rp that drew a big crowd whenever i tried.
again who you know had laanx talk to them =)
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cuz my rp was better =)
to show that at the time people were already bored with the redundancy of gm events. because they dont pull people in with the great rp and storyline and action.
The reason for that is, a lot of people surround the GM, roleplayer or not, thinking they'll get a reward by participating. That isn't really the proper message to convey, as seen in many events.
had a good point there
Gm events fail... but gm participation in others rp events win. they can decide if the rp is valid and worth helping out to increase the fun.
If you don't want to participate in a GM event, please don't. If you decide to become disruptive you will be dealt with accordingly. And if you decide to be a jerk, you will be ignored.
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dont discourage my rp because its better than yours.
if your doing a gm event and my little rp event on the other side of the plaza is more exciting and attracting your crowd... dont you get mad, come join in too.
i wont /ignore you
even if you /cry
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Coneitic, if you hate GM events so much why do you even go near them? It must be hard to have to be near roleplay that sucks so much.
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That's all subjective, Coneitic. The one objective fact here is that smugly bragging "Mine is better than yours" is universally frowned upon, and likely untrue (Maybe you are a good RPer, I've never played with you, but that's not what I'm calling into question here).
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again who you know had laanx talk to them =)
Hope you arent talking about that "We challenge the Gods"- 'RP'? Where you eagerly proclaimed afterwards it was all valid and within the Settings?
I agree, the first few minutes this one was interesting, but too soon it turned out to have a poor and embarassing ending.
If I would battle inside Kadas ignoring everything, sooner or later GM guards will appear - would I brag about that?
Better luck next time Coneitic, honestly, hope your next plots will evolve matured. (And really, dont have your enki wield a claymore with his tail :P)
Should roleplaying be enforced?
I think its still mainly the RP-players that make PS have a decent, special atmosphere. These RPers furthermore try out PS because its announced as a RP-game. Okay, Devs say roleplaying is actually encouraged. I think its encouraged way too less. Its arguable if the current efforts can be taken as "encouraging", but I am probably not the only one who knows quite some people who left because they were disappointed about what type of "roleplay" they found ingame.
First of all there should be a definition of Roleplaying. Is playing the player's personality really the sort of roleplaying wanted? Many do think so. That way numerous discussions on this board could be avoided.
Then I see so many discussions ala "RP vs RL". If you would decide to give the game a certain definition, other than "Roleplaying is welcome, but running around lol'ing is awesome too, feel free, it's PlaneShift!" would avoid quite some trouble and poison spread across these forums. I read the Devs dont really want to get rid of the "PLers", because they max out skills and can test abilities that hardly others can do. PS is pre-alpha and needs testers. Fine, I totally agree. I only hope if the game will ever be finished, there will still be roleplayers around - this last remark is highly influenced by many "RP-nazi"- and other countless RPer-unfavoring- posts I saw reading these forums.
Would I enforce roleplaying? No, I would tweak differently.
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Well... all I can say is... thanks for proving my point Coneitic... It is not ONLY PLers that are disruptive and arrogant. Being a self-proclaimed RPer... and the attitude expressed here today... kinda speaks volumes...
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Coneitic, if you hate GM events so much why do you even go near them? It must be hard to have to be near roleplay that sucks so much.
to be honest everyone i've been around has started next to me. haha i remember trying to rob a gm during an event and he didnt know how to act he had to ooc me to stop.
That's all subjective, Coneitic. The one objective fact here is that smugly bragging "Mine is better than yours" is universally frowned upon, and likely untrue (Maybe you are a good RPer, I've never played with you, but that's not what I'm calling into question here).
i dont mean to come off that much like mine is better. i mean i could never compete with UTM's storys. hes a great write with an even better imagination. to bad my first hour playing i got him to hate me forever. but i can assure you im quite good at rping. especially spontaneos rp.
and if it makes you feel better a person i helped train to rp became a gm! oh noez
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and yes that rp, i still defend that it was valid. i was spoken to by laanx and sent to the dr for it. so if it wasnt valid a gm claiming to be laanx and taking action would only further it....
poor and embarassing ending for who? its exactly what i wanted. one thing i have noticed is if you challenge the settings a gm will always intervene. at least in my case.
i just dont get how u call it a poor ending, an athiest cursing the gods and trying to get others to follow him was struck down by the very thing he preached wasnt there. im sorry if my toon was wrong IC but IC coneitic is a simple minded criminal who never wins. i set my enki up for failure everytime.
its easy to play a know it all hero. or a mastermind thief. but the true rp'ers find the challenge in playing a simple charactor. so if thats poor than to each his own.
Well... all I can say is... thanks for proving my point Coneitic... It is not ONLY PLers that are disruptive and arrogant. Being a self-proclaimed RPer... and the attitude expressed here today... kinda speaks volumes...
i'll say it again
/fanboy
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Coneitic, I think you mean to say tune, not toon. :P
I have to agree with you, Raekh. PS barely encourages roleplay. RuneScape (gasp!) has better roleplayers than PlaneShift. Even the hormone-controlled twelve-year-old noobs roleplay better than the average players here. (Ooo, diss!) Sad, really. Didn't want to bring this up until now since I was afraid y'all would cannibalize me. ._.
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dont discourage my rp because its better than yours.
if your doing a gm event and my little rp event on the other side of the plaza is more exciting and attracting your crowd... dont you get mad, come join in too.
i wont /ignore you
even if you /cry
Ummm... ok, if you really think GMs will discourage your RP you don't really know what we are here for. If your event is doing wonders for the RP environment in PS, please, go ahead and keep it up. However, if you decide to disrupt another RP, be that a GM event or some other player's just because you want to prove a point, you will have to face the consequences of your bad behavior.
Now you can keep going on and on about how great a RPer you are and how miserable everyone is in your shadow or you can actually read what others are posting here and realize that has nothing to do with this conversation.
Nobody wants RP to be discouraged. If anything, we want to discourage disruptive behavior. I personally find that policing RP will cause more disruptions than not doing so but I'm open to testing this and find a way to make it work, if possible. It's just not that simple.
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Please explain your "/fanboy" comment. Yes, I like PS. Yes, I enjoy playing and interacting with others in-game in an in-character way. If you are implying that I am simply spewing the PS party-line... um... might I suggest you read some of my other posts. I frequently clash (respectfully, unlike your current comments) with PS notables and Devs on the forums. You don't get to simply gloss over my arguments just because you think I am [EDIT]not being objective enough or agreeing with you that PS sucks.
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GM involvement in roleplay actually results in more bad than good. The reason for that is, a lot of people surround the GM, roleplayer or not, thinking they'll get a reward by participating. That isn't really the proper message to convey, as seen in many events.
Well, I think the answer here is to make GM events very common, and to not always provide rewards. I think this is already starting to happen since I didn't get a reward for the haunted tavern event. Also, to make events more casual. They could be as simple as a traveller spending some time at one of the taverns. The GM would have to carry a conversation, but there would be no conflict to solve or plot to it, and no reward either except the conversation itself.
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Long ago, there used to be a time when the GMs stood around Harny's just chilling and having a good time mingling and having fun and whatnot while they occasionally did their GM thing. They were just part of the crowd and was treated as such.
IMO, when it was decided that they should stay all invisible like and only reveal themselves when needed or events is when they started to get the "oh look, a GM showed himself. they must be up to something interesting. I'm going to go follow them and see what happens even though that's completely out of character for the type of character i'm playing to do so." thing happened.
but that's just me being an old fart again.
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How many of you went to high school? How many saw a fight happen on the school grounds? How many people, that under normal circumstances wouldn't even know what a punch is, were drawn in and just had to see what was going on? When something interesting is happening (define interesting any way you like), people talk and everyone wants to be involved in some way. This is RL... but is mirrored in PS. Sorry... but this is one of those incredibly annoying things about the human race.... why should PS be any different? Unless Aliens have invaded the internet, or cats are really controlling the mice... there is a person in front of every keyboard playing PS.
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GM involvement in roleplay actually results in more bad than good. The reason for that is, a lot of people surround the GM, roleplayer or not, thinking they'll get a reward by participating. That isn't really the proper message to convey, as seen in many events.
Not true, Allelia gets ignored quite regularly and scoffed at times. A lot of times people say "my character wouldn't get involved in that" and walk away.
cuz my rp was better =)
to show that at the time people were already bored with the redundancy of gm events. because they dont pull people in with the great rp and storyline and action.
The reason for that is, a lot of people surround the GM, roleplayer or not, thinking they'll get a reward by participating. That isn't really the proper message to convey, as seen in many events.
had a good point there
Gm events fail... but gm participation in others rp events win. they can decide if the rp is valid and worth helping out to increase the fun.
First, it is not the GM's job to pull people, it's the Rper's job to join on their own, otherwise it would be scripted. ;) Second, most of the time most of the people never know there is a GM event going on.... poor GMs. ;D and third, GM's getting involved with player RPs would get ugly quick.
It would start with whining "that's not fair", move on to accusations of favoritism, and move to tying up RP with petty arguments and complaints.
again who you know had laanx talk to them =)
Actually, I do know of someone else having Laanx talk to them. :D
dont discourage my rp because its better than yours.
if your doing a gm event and my little rp event on the other side of the plaza is more exciting and attracting your crowd... dont you get mad, come join in too.
i wont /ignore you
even if you /cry
This was uncalled for. ??? If your RP is so great, get in game and work it out. Debating with GM's on the forums won't prove anything.
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Long ago, there used to be a time when the GMs stood around Harny's just chilling and having a good time mingling and having fun and whatnot while they occasionally did their GM thing. They were just part of the crowd and was treated as such.
IMO, when it was decided that they should stay all invisible like and only reveal themselves when needed or events is when they started to get the "oh look, a GM showed himself. they must be up to something interesting. I'm going to go follow them and see what happens even though that's completely out of character for the type of character i'm playing to do so." thing happened.
but that's just me being an old fart again.
That's only part of the story though. There was disruptive behavior at times, and it was decided to fundamentally change how GMs interact with the players. You could argue that one person spoiled it for the bunch. If the goal is to be IC all the time then it makes sense. Game Masters, when they're being Game Masters, are OOC.
dont discourage my rp because its better than yours.
if your doing a gm event and my little rp event on the other side of the plaza is more exciting and attracting your crowd... dont you get mad, come join in too.
i wont /ignore you
even if you /cry
This was uncalled for. ??? If your RP is so great, get in game and work it out. Debating with GM's on the forums won't prove anything.
Alright, I'm officially confused.
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/me chuckles.
I find it greatly amusing how several people on this forum try to dictate who I 'hate', and try to use that to justify why things turn sour on them. But, that is another subject all together.
On the subject of GMs, not all of them are Roleplayers. Some just joined up to help players with bugs and combat cheaters. They deserve a lot of respect for what they do, as it is just as -or more- important than making events or roleplaying a part. Sometimes these GMs are asked to be stand-ins for events and do not expect to have to say anything. Events do not always go according to plan. Accept it and move on.
As for player events being better than GM events? For the most part, no. I have seen events from both sides and GM events are generally better constructed and more cohesive than player events. The occasional player event does pop up that is exceptional in nature, but they are not usually widely excepted by other players.
I have started several events in the past few months without a script and using a player label. They were fluid, easy to follow (yet with a complex feel), enjoyable, and drew in just the size crowd I wanted. I was also a part of a large event that lasted for a few weeks and involved both GMs and Devs in a very loose and unscripted plot with an open ending. I assure you, Sir Coneitic, you are not even close to being in the same league in planned or spontaneous events. Keep practicing, and perhaps some day you will be. If your 'event' was truly more interesting than the GM event, you would have drawn all of the players, not just a few with ADHD. ;)
*edit: This thread is quickly devolving. To keep it from getting locked, I suggest keeping the generalizations and subjective or hostile comments towards GMs to a minimum.
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Answers I don't understand to questions I didn't realize were asked. ???
Being nice is always a good suggestion.
Hopefully, down the road, roleplay events will be so common that if two are happening at the same time, no one will get upset.
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You people are insane. Fortunately the Developers think for themselves and in-game players do not reflect the behaviour in the forum. Else not even a great moderation could help us.
Let's just sit around and wait to see what they'll be coming up with. :P
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I have yet to see a GM event I was truly dissatisfied with. Granted I rarely manage to get to GM events, and my main character is rather averse to large groups (he dislikes being around a lot of people at once). While I do sometimes take part in them as other characters, this has only been recently.
However, I Doubt an RP created by any player these days will be as good as one created by UtM. Even before he had GMs and all to help with his events, his RPs were hailed as some of the greatest. I have yet, in three years and change of playing (A long time in general for a player to stick around it seems), to see anyone come up with better.
However, when it does happen, and a player does have a more interesting RP event than a GM event currently going on, I will likely be there as one character or another, maybe a few (and with one or two at the GM event as well :P). As of yet, I only know two players who could have pulled it off, UtM, and maybe Proglin, back in the good days xD And they both joined the team xD
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GM's and UtM haven't done a single event that I've considered great, mainly because they've done what you call "RP's" and I call "deficient plotlines." They've done fun stuff alright, but I don't know of any plot that really mattered or contributed to anyone's RP experience in the long run, since they (and their lack of results) never linger around enough to sum into something worthwhile. Though I thank them for their trouble.
On the other hand, no roleplayer ever did a RP event that I've considered "great" because they always include inconsistencies, because players tend to make up for the lack of mechanics with fantastic idiotic inventions, or because you can't roleplay with the major part of the community, because that major part is completely moronic.
So why isn't roleplaying even better? Because there's no main plotline in PlaneShift, GM events are "hit and run"s and player-player roleplay is inconsistent. We're solving the last part here, hopefully the other two should follow up.
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I don't understand how we got from "How can we make the game more fun?" to "My roleplays are better than your roleplays!".
We're all on the same side here, folks...
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PlaneShift itself should be a developing Yliakum-wide roleplay. It is up to the players right now to dig around and find out what's happening so as to be informed enough to join in, or at least sidebar on the current RP.
If high forum activity was encouraged and events were updated daily for players to read, it would be nice...but we all know that's probably not going to happen. Therefore it's our responsibility as RolePlayers to engage ourselves in the current matter at hand. Those who ignore it to do their own thing are either misinformed or are not roleplaying very well. We all know we can't all sit around and have expected reactions and join in every roleplay, but sometimes it is simply enough to be aware and comment on them to inform other players.
It's lack of communication that kills most roleplays. Plot development, sure, but lack of communication as well. That's what the forums are for, guys! That's what guilds are for!
I challenge ALL guilds to keep there members informed with what information they dug up on the day! I'll start with my Pack, and what we know, we'll use in our everyday roleplays. None of us in PS are pushover RPers, I'm sure even the simplest minds here can catch on if they stay informed.
And on an ending note.....
Do work, son.
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Can we see the results of this pole?
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Can we see the results of this pole?
You can see the results if you vote.
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PlaneShift itself should be a developing Yliakum-wide roleplay.
World wide themes, but interactions on the level of individuals...
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Can we see the results of this pole?
You can see the results if you vote.
I guess it now obvious that I did not vote. :oops:
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Choose "snorks" if you don't want to vote. That's why they went to the trouble of getting a third option.
Currently 63 people have voted yes and that's around 57% of those that voted. I'm glad to see that at least 63 people know that RP Enforcement is not equal to moderation fascism, but simply the only way to allow consistent roleplaying (which currently does not exist.)
Garris, I think you're a bit confused. We're talking enforcing RP consistency here in order to allow for everyone to be able to communicate in the language IC and OOC. Currently there is not a established way of roleplaying and therefore each player has its own "language" when it comes to roleplaying. This makes it so some roleplayers can't interact with the others because they fail to understand their language (their own way of roleplaying). Therefore we can't expect players to improve the quality of RPing in game too much, since each player thinks their doing it right, but none is actually speaking the truth (since the moderators, can't side with anyone to make their roleplaying attitude official.)
If developers develop a RP concept that requests some points of agreement (i.e. you can't auto other characters, your dude doesn't have any special powers that can't be "reasonably" [as defined by the Devs or GMs] acquired) and if the GM's make sure it works, then we'll make it so most people can speak the same language. Get my drift?
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Yes, but Sangwa... Xillix intentionally left the poll vague. I assume (yes, i know what assuming does) that this was done to spark just the kind of conversation we are having here. You are proving your point about people interpreting things in different ways. You read the poll and had one interpretation, Garris read the poll and had a different interpretation.
As to a more consistent RP environment, I could handle that. In my PERSONAL opinion, I think that things are reasonable in-game for the most part. A few more GMs spread around during non-peak times wouldn't be a horrible thing, but I think they do a good job when they are around at keeping the peace. I think that the rules that are in place right now are sufficient, with maybe a gentle nudge or two every now and then from the GM team to deal with those that stray too far into OOC or IC nitpicking.
To add my own interpretation, I think that most that answered no, simply don't want to have to worry about every sentence they type in main getting them chastised. NOT that they don't want to be IC when conversing with other players.
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Personally, I think the poll is meaningless and should be ignored. The discussion is what's important.
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Give the man a cigar, I think someone gets it... :)
(sorry, I couldn't help myself)
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I don't get it. It is a role playing game and by definition what you do is play a role. Even if you are a lame-ass leet speaker you are playing the role of a lunatic even if you do not admit it. Is it really such a big problem anyway? Some people are driven to power-train others to power-yap and everything in between; those are the roles the player chooses to play .
If you want people to partake in grand passion plays perhaps you should build a bunch of theatres and rehearsal rooms and then rent out the halls at an hourly rate. Another thing you could do is to have regularly scheduled religious festivals complete with parades through the streets, open air sermons and whatnot.
I really do not understand all the gnashing of teeth that goes on around here.
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Is it really necessary to have every thread on the forums degrade into a fighting match? Come on people *sigh* Please, Disagree well. Discuss the topic without all the bickering. Something might get accomplished if we do.
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@Those who commented on my post:
I noted the poll, and made my choice - yes, RP should be enforced. Then I expanded off based on other people's comments to form my post. Thank you all for reading and replying :)
@Zanzibar: Precisely. Character RPs are of large importance. I'm just stating it's nice to be aware of "large" and other rps, so we can mix and match the suckers if possible.
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This poll and the arguments contained in it have outlived their usefulness.
Please carry on the discussion here:
http://hydlaa.com/smf/index.php?topic=34124.0 (http://hydlaa.com/smf/index.php?topic=34124.0)