PlaneShift
Gameplay => General Discussion => Topic started by: Donari Tyndale on May 04, 2009, 12:55:38 am
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Recently, I've noticed that many people seem to be unaware what roleplay actually means. They might know the definition of OOC or IC, but quite often they don't know what they are doing wrong when praising their "300q weapons" in auction tab. Someone (Aka Vonor) suggested me trying to give roleplay lessons instead of trying to change the people by criticism. And thus here I am.
First of all, I am looking for volunteers who would be willing to help out on the teacher side of the lesson so this idea can eventually reach all timezones. Next, concerning the place. It'd be best if we'd do some theory, either in game or on IRC. IRC has the advantage of being far better for communication purposes, whereas in game reaches everyone. What do you guys think? Secondly, I think the theory should be followed by some practice, for example a tiny roleplay event which allows those that just heard a lot of theory to practice their roleplay skills without fearing to be criticised for lack of english etc.
I'm awaiting feedback and volunteers!
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I'm pretty sure there are threads dedicated to this, like explaining the function and ideals of roleplay. But if you think there's a genuine need for in-game tutelage then I could help, I have a knack for being able to explain things really easily.
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I wonder if there are so many wanting to 'teach' role play why there is so little role play in this game. No offense Donari, I consider you a friend as you know, but I hardly doubt you will make a difference where so many have failed in the past. Why do you think some of the best role players have left this game?Though I wish you luck.
/me goes back to real life.
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/me never failed in teaching Roleplaying, just ran out of time to play.
Mathy, stop spreading your depressive defeatism.
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I've been playing on and off the last four years and yet, somehow, I'm still able to find roleplay.
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Lead by example...
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I'd gladly teach but I am not in game too often now.
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sounds like a good idea to me.
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Teaching vs Preaching. I think you have a good idea Donari. The question I would ask. "Is how do you go about generating player interest in it, to participate?"
And, yes there are several threads with this mentioned. But there is also a difference between "Talking the Talk, and Walking the walk" (to borrow the phrase)
I, myself am guilty of what Donari is talking about. Though I have made some efforts to correct them. The process takes some practice of habit. And, I do appreciate those experienced role players who have weaned me through patience and example of conversation vs [learn how to role play] Though I doubt I will ever be a in-depth role player I do try to work my character into his surroundings, as I think many players do. In the last market the main chat was a mix of conversation, but, the trend is moving more to players making the attempt to try to role play their characters. That has been a gradual improvement if anyone takes the time to notice.
I have helped a few new players under the suggestions of Illysia and UTM, It's not easy but it has had some results also. I use main chat to role play the explanation and move the questions of mechanics to tells and/or group. Some pick up the idea rather quickly, while others struggle a little until they learn the difference in the use of the chat windows. all have show an effort in time, without having to be direct about it.
Even the main chat of the mines have improved, Again if you take notice. There are still a few lol's and and some basic silliness. Once a few players start to joke around in the correct manner the mood chances and most join into it. So,the effort isn't in vain. Many players are trying if you bring them into an IC conversation.
I still remember my first real experience of role play between characters. I meet a male Enkidukai on the road from the magic shop gold mine. After greeting him, he asked that I joined him in his walk to Hydlaa. He ignored my ignorance of the use of the main chat and weaned me into the role play of the conversation. It ending up being a fun and pleasant introduction to role play. Honestly, if he had started to say [use brackets] or started to correct me along the way. I may have just hit the "R" button and been done with it. I am thankful for his patience in working with me around it. That conversation often comes to mind whenever I meet a new player.
No, Role play isn't dead, but much of it is in infancy, how it matures is entirely up to the people willing to give it direction.
Donari, A use of a simple play may work as a teaching method. A simple script that can be handed out to interested players to participate in and act out. Using both short text and actions. It would offer some experience to role playing and make it fun to be part of.
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Mathy, stop spreading your depressive defeatism.
You are correct Under the moon.So let me start again: I was taught by example, but I must say back then there was so much role play in game it was hard not to be apart of it. For all I know Under the Moon was one of my teachers. We can never stop learning.
Then I ask what kind of role play are the people of PlaneShift looking for? How do you want to role play? Maybe the question should be asked, "What is role play?" Can different kinds of role play come together and work? Though some played their character's story, some played the PlaneShift story, and some played the game mechanics. Role play might be different things to different people. How is it best done? Can it be planned? Should it be planned? Do you want small role plays in game or large ones that continue on and on with many people involved? How can a person keep up with the role play due to all the different time zones? I am sure there are many more questions to ask.
Maybe before we learn to role play, we need to understand what it is and how it fits into PlaneShift.
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If there's a lot of interest in such an RP-School I will gladly help you out with the organisation. For example teleporting the "class" to a different instance so no other people get disturbed.
Contact me when you have set up the first date for this,
Vonor
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If there's a lot of interest in such an RP-School I will gladly help you out with the organisation. For example teleporting the "class" to a different instance so no other people get disturbed.
Contact me when you have set up the first date for this,
Vonor
Something like this would probably get me in game more again. I love RPing in PS and I don't even mind if it is with newbs all the time.
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Donari, your idea is excellent. I will be attending as many classes as possible.
"Rambling Thoughts"
Short 15 to 30 minute classes
1 day, same day every week
taught by different races for multiple perspectives
same location for all classes
mentioned in the Orientation Tutorial -> "You may find Roleplay Classes in game at times."
Class announcement posted via Book Poster
Pre-registration for class by student dropping book with character name/race/experience at specific location
Teacher gathering registration books to formulate a lesson format
Using Group tab for lesson instruction
My character would like to know more about the world in which he lives and works and especially about other races.
Reading the forum pages is helpful but going to a live class taught by a live person of Yliakum would be so much better.
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Many of you may be forgetting that once upon a time xillix sat in front of the temple for 6-8 hours a day teaching people the difference of ooc and ic and the basics of rp and how to get around. My registration numbers show that that was over 300 characters served. Most if not all of those people no longer play.
I can tell you from those experiences that teaching rp is a constant activity. If you even want to make a dent I'd suggest a more fixed sort of training where there is SOMEONE available to teach new people in one location constantly.
If so many of you are passionate about teaching the newbs you could organize and take turns doing this.
I think weekly lessons is insufficient to the issue at hand.
Like anything else, you must provide incentive for people to want to listen to you, rather than preaching to any geek who does "lol" in main chat, set up to handle all comers and give them the benefit of your experience.
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Yup, the Vespers of Laanx did a lot of good back then. Unfortunately by the time I became guild leader it was largely inactive... a shame. I managed to bring back a few people but it never reached its former glory.
If you go the Vespers of Laanx route, you'll probably end up creating shortcuts to facilitate dialogue. Try to hide the fact that you're hotkeying paragraphs of text, or else you might yourself be promoting bad behaviours. Just pace yourself as if you were actually typing it and you'll be fine.
It was good of Xillix to weigh in on this. Other people in the same class as Xillix would be Janner and Verrliit, I wonder if we'll hear from them next?
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I'm of a mixed mind about this.
Yes, it would be nice to "teach RP" but in my opinion, newbs learn RP in a couple of days, and either adapt and learn from there or completely fly in the face of it, like **** and *****.
Yes, having 'classes' or even Q&A sessions would be a good idea, held in a Group tab perhaps...
Just remember that each player is in control of their character, if they want to be a typical Warrior/Merchant/Mage and max stats and learn skills and grind, they shouldn't be discouraged, as I know Donari has a personal dislike for anything of the sort.
So BASICS should be taught, but not "do things this way, our opinion of mechanics is this, you do/don't have to do that"...
Mostly focus on where IC/OOC is appropriate and go for gold.
Oh, wait, with Donari banned... who will run the school?
[Edit: no naming and shaming please]
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Akkaido I think Illysia would be a great role play teacher. I have learnt a great deal from her myself and a certain wonderful dwarf that would bring me back in game in a instant if he returned. Actually there were two dwarfs that taught me a great deal. If they came back it would be a great day for PlaneShift.
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http://www.hydlaaplaza.com/smf/index.php?topic=25723.30
I will point you here again as a good starting point, there you will find all the binds the vespers used to aid newbs and some of the critique. Maybe someone can adopt those and adapt them for use today.
Everyone that mathy is playing violins over missing was playing back then so . . . "don't cry for me Argentina!"
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Everyone that mathy is playing violins over missing was playing back then so . . . "don't cry for me Argentina!"
I would make a formal complaint against Xillix but that does no good. Truly there is no reason for you to be so rude Xillix. Has anyone told you that even the boss can be nice? Mine bought me lunch the other day because of a job well done. We work harder for kind people. It is a known fact.
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http://www.hydlaaplaza.com/smf/index.php?topic=25723.30
I will point you here again as a good starting point, there you will find all the binds the vespers used to aid newbs and some of the critique. Maybe someone can adopt those and adapt them for use today.
To people not named Xillix: I'd have to look through them, but I know some of the old binds have things like links to websites and OOC text. My preference would be for those parts to be removed (they eventually were anyway).
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Mathy
You imply that
A) I am not nice to those working for me
and
B) That you are working for me
Neither is true.
Back on topic: To me it'd be nice if people considered using (albeit reworked for modern needs) the structure already created for helping noobs that definitely worked (with its problems and troubles) to retain new players.
We are taking steps to make sure that more new players make it through the tutorial and that people know that they are on a rp server when they get on Laanx.
We hope it will help, but in the end the players really are the last line of defense for player retention. I can't be counted on for that because I just tell people I don't like to leave.
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By 2006, a lot of people had already left the community. In 2005, a very high profile player and dev member left the community, saying that so many faces had come and gone that PlaneShift no longer felt like the family it once was to her.
I very much doubt that Mathy is the only person that misses people. Mathy just seems to be more vocal about it. My personal belief is nostalgia is a burden when it comes to things like this....
Back on topic, however you decide to teach roleplay, make sure your number one priority is making it fun.
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Akkaido, me being banned doesn't mean I can't teach others. To this point, one fundamental thing has not been adressed. When would be the best time to hold the lessons? On the weekend? Weekdays?
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Are banned players usually allowed to post to the forum? When I was banned, I wasn't allowed to visit the forum, or even irc... I'm not complaining, I think it's important for Donari to continue posting here. I'm just wondering what the rule is.
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I am not permitted to play for three months. You were banned from the forum for flaming here :P
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Mathy
You imply that
A) I am not nice to those working for me
and
B) That you are working for me
Neither is true.
I get sick of the mopey "back in the day" thing you do Mathy. I've really had enough of it. You can report me all you want but more useful would be if you really did quit and stopped posting melodramatic crap on the forums. People want progress and action not longing for a bygone time.
Xillix why bother responding to my post if you deleted it? Maybe there is to much censorship here. Should I ask Parallo if this is true? I wish this community well in it's wish to bring back role play to PlaneShift.
By 2006, a lot of people had already left the community. In 2005, a very high profile player and dev member left the community, saying that so many faces had come and gone that PlaneShift no longer felt like the family it once was to her.
I very much doubt that Mathy is the only person that misses people. Mathy just seems to be more vocal about it. My personal belief is nostalgia is a burden when it comes to things like this....
Back on topic, however you decide to teach roleplay, make sure your number one priority is making it fun.
zanzibar do you ever wonder why these people have moved on? And yes it does change the way PlaneShift feels. We used to be a family. That is missing and I do not mind saying so.
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zanzibar do you ever wonder why these people have moved on?
Not really. Since I've been in contact with so many people behind the scenes so often, I have a pretty good idea.
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no one removed your post mathy, what in the heck are you on about?
Earlier posts of Parallo and Rinehud were removed because they were flaimbaiting YOU.
We shut them down because they were rude and uncalled for.
now let's stick to the topic (one of a million) about how to get rp back.
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Opps. Even the best of the best make mistakes Xillix. I know how great I am but for just once I will have to say I am sorry because I made a mistake and did not see my post was still there. You can be certain it will not happen again. Us great ones do not make the same mistake twice if we ever make mistakes at all.
[Here is a role play idea players. Now use that and role play it in game. It is not hard. Just use your imagination.]
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No offence Mathy, but what is the point on you posting on this thread when you don't play the game, and aren't willing to come back unless things got exciting enough for you. We need players to post ideas for how and where to have these lessons, and have teachers volunteer time and energy into teaching open RP (as in not the Nazi type, and not the OOC-is-ok type).
This thread has nothing to do with the birth, death, and flow of dynasties of favourite RPers through Planeshift. It's about ensuring the endurance of RP through educating the younger players.
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I don't think there has ever been dynasties... just familiar faces.
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That is sad that you feel you could not learn to role play here on the forums and take it back in game Akkaido. Instead I was hoping someone might just add to what I wrote and start a real role play here. All it takes is a bit of imagination.
Also I do not think I am the only person on the forums who no longer plays. I think many people who do not play make many posts here.
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Teach by example. I never would have become a roleplayer had i not become fascinated by a nearby plot that was being carried out one day. Once you start getting preachy about it it just becomes rather....lame.
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no one removed your post mathy, what in the heck are you on about?
Earlier posts of Parallo and Rinehud were removed because they were flaimbaiting YOU.
We shut them down because they were rude and uncalled for.
now let's stick to the topic (one of a million) about how to get rp back.
Oh come on, don't leave me out, I got banned for a day also. Give credit where credit is due, eh?
On a side note that just happens to be related the topic of this thread... (go figure)
Maybe we shouldn't worry so much about "getting RP back," and just have fun? We don't need the old roleplays and the old roleplayers you miss so much, different is not always bad. Different is not always OOC.
@mathy: I'm sorry for your loss, but they aren't coming back, and the game will never be how it used to be when you enjoyed it (before my time). This may be an invalid assumption, but I think the kind of roleplay you enjoyed relies on PlaneShift having no features. PlaneShift is actually becoming a computer game now, rather than a 3D chat client. It's not a bad thing.
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I haven't heard hide nor hair from Einnol or Indygo so it's probably safe to say they aren't coming back anytime soon. But you can teach RPing and people can have fun at the same time. I usually center my lessons around cooking and food and I have never had any trouble with it. People usually have fun.
Oh and I know why the nostalgia for old RPers and old RPs. In the past, there used to be on going stories, not just here and there one shot RPs. It's more difficult to do those now, but not impossible. We older RPers just need to play often enough for people to get to know our characters again. ;)
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I haven't heard hide nor hair from Einnol or Indygo so it's probably safe to say they aren't coming back anytime soon. But you can teach RPing and people can have fun at the same time. I usually center my lessons around cooking and food and I have never had any trouble with it. People usually have fun.
Oh and I know why the nostalgia for old RPers and old RPs. In the past, there used to be on going stories, not just here and there one shot RPs. It's more difficult to do those now, but not impossible. We older RPers just need to play often enough for people to get to know our characters again. ;)
I have to laugh Illysia because you knew exactly who I meant. For the first time someone really explains what I miss the most about the old PlaneShift. Thank you Illysia.
Maybe we shouldn't worry so much about "getting RP back," and just have fun? We don't need the old roleplays and the old roleplayers you miss so much, different is not always bad. Different is not always OOC.
@mathy: I'm sorry for your loss, but they aren't coming back, and the game will never be how it used to be when you enjoyed it (before my time). This may be an invalid assumption, but I think the kind of roleplay you enjoyed relies on PlaneShift having no features. PlaneShift is actually becoming a computer game now, rather than a 3D chat client. It's not a bad thing.
As for you Vannaka I think you may be right. So then I say to you enjoy the PlaneShift you have now. Nothing wrong with that at all. To each their own I say.
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I have to laugh Illysia because you knew exactly who I meant. For the first time someone really explains what I miss the most about the old PlaneShift. Thank you Illysia.
Uh, how long have you been here?
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zanzibar I started in 2006. Things were different then. I said different, not better and I liked it. Goodness we role played for hours and hours. And just for Xillix because I hate to disappoint him, most everyone I played with is gone now and that is sad.
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"When your memories exceed your dreams, the end is near."
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I hope you don't mind when I use that as sig :)
[ Sorry for offtopic ]
Sen
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Go ahead, there's plenty more. :D
Edit: I can't say I know who the author is, it's not in my notes. A google search resulted in someone by the name of Andy Stanley, but that can mean anything.
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Teach by example. I never would have become a roleplayer had i not become fascinated by a nearby plot that was being carried out one day. Once you start getting preachy about it it just becomes rather....lame.
Agreed. There isn't the time or energy to have classes to the extent that it will make a good difference. However, what may help is a large numbers of individuals spreading RP everywhere, maybe make a petition. Players try to promote RP everywhere, with anyone. They go to their guilds, and make events that anyone can participate. They make RPing FUN. If they come across a non RPer who, for example, wants to buy something, they pressure them to RP. After all, if they don't want to RP, they should go to the other server. I for one will try to to this to the best of my abilities.
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There's a cycle here, it happens to all the players not just those who RP.
They get in the game, as newbies they make a lot of friends, with time some of them become inactive and their circle of buddies starts to dwindle. It's the way of life, nothing you can do about it. But for yourself, the trick is to find new friends and play with them instead, learn to have fun in other ways. It's true that it gets more difficult when you have higher expectations though, but not impossible.
Roleplayers suffer from this affliction the most, because once you get to meet some very good ones, and they become inactive for any reason, it's like part of the game dies. And it does! But instead of lamenting over and over and over and oooooveeerrrrrrr about it, you could lower your expectations and actually try to form other friendships, get involved in other types of roleplay, create different types of characters...
In the end, this effort will pay off, because you never know who you teach to RP and what great roleplayers they might become. Some people are good at it and have no clue until they get involved.
There's so much you CAN do instead of complain about it. I've had enough of this "defeatism" as UtM called it.
Kudos for the idea of these Roleplay lessons. Organizers - feel free to ping the GM team for help / advices, whatever. We may or may not be able to help with all requests, but we can surely try.
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You guys can stop bashing me now. Instead I will refer Instead I will refer back to this thread http://www.hydlaaplaza.com/smf/index.php?topic=34966.0 There are great ideas here.
Again I will ask what kind of role play you would like to see in game to make these 'lessons' more meaningful?
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It may come as somewhat of a shock, I know, but not everything is about YOU. I didn't even mention your name.
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I ask again; what kind of role play are the players looking for? I thought Xillix and others had great ideas in that other thread.
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Mathy please stop repeating yourself ad infinitum, express your own ideas if you must but constantly asking for others to do what you can't or won't is rather boring
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I ask again; what kind of role play are the players looking for? I thought Xillix and others had great ideas in that other thread.
Well, as anyone who reads or acts knows, plot arises from conflict. So, I think the same applies to role play. It can get boring if two friends just discuss what they've been up to day after day. What really gets interesting is opposition, hatred, criminal activity, ect. For example, the Outlaws have established a bad relationship with the Woiperdinger and Organization guilds. This happened as a result of some sort of criminal activity by the Outlaws onto the other guilds, and now, the Outlaws had better watch out so that they aren't recognized by Woiperdinger or Organization members. So, there is a constant level of threat, and encouragement to keep a low profile and a masked face.
When I say conflict, I don't mean constant tournaments. If you read a book, you wouldn't want to hear about a tournament and nothing else. If you do have a tournament, for example, maybe there is a rivalry that will face off, or behind the scenes gambling, or a match is rigged. Role play events can be planned out. When you go on a trip, you know where you're going, but you don't know what's on the way.
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I ask again; what kind of role play are the players looking for? I thought Xillix and others had great ideas in that other thread.
Well, as anyone who reads or acts knows, plot arises from conflict. So, I think the same applies to role play. It can get boring if two friends just discuss what they've been up to day after day. What really gets interesting is opposition, hatred, criminal activity, ect. For example, the Outlaws have established a bad relationship with the Woiperdinger and Organization guilds. This happened as a result of some sort of criminal activity by the Outlaws onto the other guilds, and now, the Outlaws had better watch out so that they aren't recognized by Woiperdinger or Organization members. So, there is a constant level of threat, and encouragement to keep a low profile and a masked face.
When I say conflict, I don't mean constant tournaments. If you read a book, you wouldn't want to hear about a tournament and nothing else. If you do have a tournament, for example, maybe there is a rivalry that will face off, or behind the scenes gambling, or a match is rigged. Role play events can be planned out. When you go on a trip, you know where you're going, but you don't know what's on the way.
Personal conflicts are just one (small) kind of conflict.