PlaneShift
Gameplay => Wish list => Topic started by: PhoenixRizin on September 25, 2009, 07:51:41 pm
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The old topic was locked, so I am starting a new thread
Currently GMs have the capability to change characters to other models (most recently clackers). So I was wondering, for characters like mine that operate in secret and wear cloaks, what was the possibility of having a switch that turned a player model from the normal one to that of a rogue when cloaked? The name would remain, as players are supposed to ignore the name and guild tag anyway, but there would be the physical appearance of a disguise. To make it interesting, perhaps the ability to cloak can be a quest reward or purchasable item (ie a Ring of Shadows) from Zak, Kisatol, Lori, The Dark Wanderer or Pauril. The technical parts of this exist for the most part in game, so perhaps you get the ring and use the command /cloak to change the model.
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It would be nice also to have a similar model for when one is wearing a ceremonial robe - something a priest or wizard might use. :sorcerer:
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I like Jonoth's idea. Now you have to check the description immediately when meeting a character. If we are able to morph into a rogue, you won't greet somebody and then realize he or she is cloaked and you couldn't have recognized them ::|.
Moreover, there's nothing or at least not much that needs to be actually implemented. You just need to give the players the permissions to morph their chars to "Rogue". And the many cloaked chars will look much so suspicious on the streets ;D
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My thoughts in a particularly unparticular order….
1.
How many rogues do you see walking inside the city walls just shooting the breeze on a Sunday stroll? If anything like this was ever implemented I think for realism’s sake, the player character’s faction with the guards would have to drop to something like -100, for the time they are in this “stealthy” mode.
b.
Since when does wearing a cloak make you completely unidentifiable, even by your closest friends (or enemies)? I never understood this and probably never will… I suppose if everyone was wrapped up from head to toe like the rogue model but, then how can NPCs and players recognize good ol’ Zak? Cloaked or not, height, weight, and body language are not going to change so, while being more difficult, I don’t get how someone well acquainted with a character wouldn’t still be able to pick them out of a crowd given enough time.
III.
While I would love to see models for a variety of equip-able cloaks in game (and any other clothing, armor, etc.) I think giving players the ability to morph into a rogue model would just become overused, misused, and unamusing. For a community that is always crying out for new ways to distinguish their character model and make it more unique/recognizable, I find it kind of ironic that what is being proposed is a magic cloak that essentially makes everyone look exactly the same and removes all traces of individuality.
2a.
Every covert action does and should have the possibility of having its cover blown… virtual invisibility cloaks make zero sense to me and honestly have always struck me as having the potential for godmodding. Plus, any act that has zero chance of failure makes for very boring roleplay. So, unless someone jacked Hogwarts, I have a really hard time believing any character should/could/would have a magical invisibility cloak… It just makes for gameplay that is too unbalanced.
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Personally, when cloaked I usually leave some sort of hint - especially if the other player requests it.
I think that some visual indication that the player is cloaked would be very helpful - even if it was a cheezy one ( like a letter C over their head )
This happened recently and is a good example of what we would like to avoid:
Mellas is deep inside a crack in the rocks under the bridge near Zak - I assume its very dark in there
(22:14:50) Mellas throws the black cloak over herself
And only a split moment later, Rigwyn finds her ( visually that is )
(22:15:08) Rigwyn shouts: found it !
Here Mellas explains to me in an ooc tell that she was wearing a black cloak to camouflage herself
(22:15:39) Rigwyn shouts: "My bad .. just a stone"
(22:16:40) [Tell] Mellas shivers, frightened by the shouting
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1.
How many rogues do you see walking inside the city walls just shooting the breeze on a Sunday stroll? If anything like this was ever implemented I think for realism’s sake, the player character’s faction with the guards would have to drop to something like -100, for the time they are in this “stealthy” mode.
The faction idea is a good one. As far as lots of people walking around in cloak, there are also lots of menki in the same red leather armor, or combinations of the chain, leather and plate, many looking alike, some looking different, but generally with tags off you can confuse between them. This applies even moreso to female nolthirs, as tags are the only reason I can identify any of them. This is only a temporary measure I propose to prompt willing RPers to acknowledge that the player isnt in their regular garb, so that a "Hi Jonoth" doesn't occur when I'm supposed to be mostly incognito. Players that choose to abuse it do so at thier own risk.
b.
Since when does wearing a cloak make you completely unidentifiable, even by your closest friends (or enemies)? I never understood this and probably never will… I suppose if everyone was wrapped up from head to toe like the rogue model but, then how can NPCs and players recognize good ol’ Zak? Cloaked or not, height, weight, and body language are not going to change so, while being more difficult, I don’t get how someone well acquainted with a character wouldn’t still be able to pick them out of a crowd given enough time.
This is where descriptions come in. Many of the users of cloaks I see have some kind of identifier to hint on who they are (or at least race). Again, some will make themselves completely unidentifiable, but its not like that is something not going on already. The models wont change this.
III.
While I would love to see models for a variety of equip-able cloaks in game (and any other clothing, armor, etc.) I think giving players the ability to morph into a rogue model would just become overused, misused, and unamusing. For a community that is always crying out for new ways to distinguish their character model and make it more unique/recognizable, I find it kind of ironic that what is being proposed is a magic cloak that essentially makes everyone look exactly the same and removes all traces of individuality.
Again...this is a temporary solution. Seeing as there aren't all character models yet, I doubt first on the team's priority artistically is giving everyone special cloaks. This will come in time, but for now, I'm sticking with something that is already possible with a little scripting.
2a.
Every covert action does and should have the possibility of having its cover blown… virtual invisibility cloaks make zero sense to me and honestly have always struck me as having the potential for godmodding. Plus, any act that has zero chance of failure makes for very boring roleplay. So, unless someone jacked Hogwarts, I have a really hard time believing any character should/could/would have a magical invisibility cloak… It just makes for gameplay that is too unbalanced.
See answer above about player abuse.
So just to reiterate, I think limiting those with this ability isnt a bad idea, but you can never expect every measure to be foolproof. And this is only something to play with until the art catches up and unique cloaks are a possibility.
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I'm probably just biased... deep down I wish every rped cloak would vanish in a spectacular imaginary series of spontaneous combustions. :devil: From a realism stand point, I always found the idea of cloaks as covert items about as realistic as trench coats or Groucho glasses as tools of modern espionage.
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_GF_X5q0eY90/SnbD9lDZesI/AAAAAAAABWI/g_uS1eECJtI/s400/BugsAsGroucho.jpg) (http://lh5.ggpht.com/_SrxRt4fvC2Y/SgRgMSRr_CI/AAAAAAAAFqk/1OwrX8yl6eo/s400/081024-002.JPG)
Anyway, it is not a terrible idea and I am glad you at least liked the factions idea I floated but, like you said, it would just be a temporary solution to a longer term process, and I think I would rather have the devs working on more permanent solutions to progress the game than making momentary fixes that would not be necessary in the final product. (After all, if our characters have "real" cloaks to wear, then there is no need for a note in the description or morphing models).
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I can understand your hate of the RP cloaks, I have had bad experiences with players who change their description so they supposedly look different every time and if you try to identify them through the disguise they fight it, my argument was that I saw someone of the same race, same height, gender and build who was in the same location less than five minutes ago...I mean c'mon...
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Point taken Marqsaynt (and nice illustration by the way XD). And I too tend to favor the long term work over quick fixes. My hope is that this fix at least would be one that wouldn't require too much wasted time if any, and if it would, I would agree that it shouldn't be included. But if its not too much work for the team then yes, maybe a temp solution would be good. As I was rereading the thread, I was reminded of how artist sketches of muggers and rapists here in NY tend to fit a similar mold ie same black hoodie with baseball cap. I guess having the rogue switch would be like all the assailants having that black hoodie and baseball cap.
As for ncfbn's comment, I see the potential for cloak abuse even in descriptions. What I've seen as well is players switching to new cloaks as a result of being discovered in their old ones. And a smart criminal wouldn't go out in that garb once someone knew that was him. He or she would be as obvious as our friend Bugs Bunny up there dressed as Groucho.
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this thread's name is badass
back to the topic... why do you guys want to punish people for wearing cloaks? cloaks are pretty common. they aren't evil, right? :P
(LOL this post is about 8 hours late... I fell asleep while typing)
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Cloaks... I have seen people wear these types of cloaks while idling in taverns or doing quests for guards. In real life, that would be equivalent to running around in a black jump suit and a ski mask. Ya, that is not going to draw extra attention.
For events that turned people into rogues, I always used magic spells or masks that make a complete illusion to disguise people and make them all look exactly like rogues. It helped explain why all rogues look the same and don't look like any race. :)
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Cloaks... I have seen people wear these types of cloaks while idling in taverns or doing quests for guards. In real life, that would be equivalent to running around in a black jump suit and a ski mask. Ya, that is not going to draw extra attention.
no, more like wearing a hoodie. cloaks aren't supposed to look evil. they're just meant to protect you from weather and cold.
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Nothing wrong with a plain cloak. Now if you are wearing a cloak and mask and it is clear you are trying to hide your ID from everyone you might as just as well walk to the middle of the Plaza and shout " Follow Me I'm up to no good"
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This is why I'm sure to call everyone I see out on the fact that they're wearing cloaks
(21:19:15) Timmothy smiles, "Evening. Vayl, gender-ambiguously-dressed sir or madam."
(21:19:46) Vayl glances back at Timmothy, grinning. "He could say the same right back at you."
(21:19:57) Vayl says: [She says 'he' because of the voice.]
(21:20:04) Vayl says: [Just putting that out there..]
(21:20:18) Kellic doesn't look at Timmothy, "Amusing, aren't you."
(21:20:41) Vayl quirks a brow at Kellic, shrugging again.
(21:20:50) Timmothy nods to Vayl, "She could say a lot of things. But she'd probably be talking out of her possibly-well-shaped rear."
(21:21:00) Timmothy says: [He says she because he's an asshole <3]
(21:21:05) Timmothy says: [Just putting that out there...]
(21:22:09) Vayl's tail flicks, otherwise saying nothing.
(21:23:16) Timmothy looks to Kellic, "So susan--can I call you Susan?--Nice night, huh? Hydlaa sure is beautiful."
(21:23:52) Kellic ignores Timmothy, leaning slightly on the railing.
(21:24:26) Vayl smiles slightly, hiding it behind the rim of her mug.
(21:25:18) Timmothy comments to himself, "Rather antisocial, I'd say." He speaks up again, "Are you insecure about yourself, Susan? Do the other girls pick on you?" He shakes his head vigourously, "You're beautiful too, in your own way!"
(21:26:18) Vayl begins to giggle a bit. Turning her attention back to the hillside as she tries to block out the conversation.
(21:28:04) Kellic pulls a small box out of his cloak, holding it up to the same level as his blindfold, still completely ignoring Timmothy.
(21:29:49) Timmothy looks from Kellic to Vayl, eyes widening, "Oh! Oh! I get it! You're /that/ type of girl." He shakes his head, "Look, Vayl doesn't like girls like that... I'm sorry. Anyway, even if she did you just met her! It's too soon for that!"
(21:31:19) Kellic continues to ignore Timmothy, picking a small vial of something black out of the box.
(21:31:44) Vayl brings a hand up to her mouth, trying to muffle her laughter.
(21:32:55) Timmothy sighs, "Look, Susan, I know you like, her, I really do, but /drugging Vayl/" He puts particular stress on those two words, "Is not the answer. Write a poem, sing a song, profess your love like a normal girl, but not like a creepy stalker."
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Nothing wrong with a plain cloak. Now if you are wearing a cloak and mask and it is clear you are trying to hide your ID from everyone you might as just as well walk to the middle of the Plaza and shout " Follow Me I'm up to no good"
Exactly. I wear a cloak to hide my identity, but if it makes someone suspicious, it's the responsibility of the wearer to RP the consequences like anything else. Heck, if the ability gets added, and everyone starts wearing them, I would think that the Octarchy would take notice and make wearing clothes that hide one's identity illegal, or at least start persecuting them more. Its why I wouldn't do it all the time.. I would only want people to see it briefly, rather than having time to make out the fact that the cloaked figure is approximately my size. And also this is why adding a description of it is important.
And to add to my original argument, often players will wear a set of armor different from the norm to signify they are in cloak. For example, I will wear leather armor when I'm just walking around, but switch to chain with a battle helm or merc helm when I'm cloaked. However, I still have to update my description to say I am cloaked because if I'm in the arena training, wearing my cloak outfit, I dont necessarily want to be considered cloak even though I am wearing the same stuff. So the rogue outfit could fill this void.
Another option is to take one of the current clothing types and make it the rogue colors (there is a dermorian outfit like this already (used by Guile in the camp), so I dont know what would have to be changed for them). So you'd get black and grey leather armor or the like. The problem is the same. People will lean towards that outfit because black clothes tend to be popular in games, so there would be a city full of citizens looking like they are at a funeral. But it would solve the race ambiguity issue.
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...omg, this is ridiculous
imagine this. cloaks = jacket. do you have a jacket irl? does it have a hood? that's the same thing as having a cloak. it's the same deal irl and in Planeshift. just because nearly everyone has one doesn't make it bad. hoods are there to cover your head, and yes they can be used to hide your identity. but that doesn't make them a mark of evil.
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If your character has a double identity then its pretty important to be able to cloak. Its not like you can just whack someone to shut them up for good. ( i guess you could permakill them but who's really going to let you do that )
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Hoodies are just sweaters with hoods on but if you walk around with the hood up then you will be treated with suspicion
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And no, they don't hide your identity.
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Some of you have been playing much longer than myself. I don't mean to digress from the subject too much but would you you mind perhaps offering an idea as to how one could work around the problem of having to conceal their identity without usinhg a cloak ?
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Plz, there's no way to wholly conceal your identity, that's what everyone seems to forget. There will always be something giving you away.
It's like, when you're sitting in a chair in a quiet tavern and someone starts creeping around behind you and you turn around, then they're all NUUUU YOU CAN'T HEER ME.
Well even if it's true, and you're superninja death-quiet, have you ever been sitting, doing nothing and had someone creep up behind you? It's different when you're doing something, but when you're just sitting idly you can feel them behind you.
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I agree that misuse of a cloak or a disguise is unfair - just like saying that you have some rp'd weapon or skill that makes you damn near invincible. I think a well thought out and reasonable cloak/disguise/sheet-with-holes/whatever should be fair game though with realistic limitations.
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Cloaks as they have come to be used seem to me (unintentionally) lazy roleplay. Not only are they overused but they are a missed opportunity to RP something creatively.
Think about it, this is a chance to change any or virtually all aspects of your character's appearance and even mannerisms... A change of clothes can make a wealthy merchant an ignorable pauper, a change of hair style, color, and attitude a person that acquaintances might not recognize out on the plaza. Sometimes taking a character outside of their normal context can be the best disguise.
I believe most people agree characters always to some degree are recognizable no matter what they are wearing, personally I'd just like to see a little more thinking outside of the box when it comes to concealing a character's identity.
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10 months ago, I submitted a document to the settings team. Its title was "Proposals on how to improve the rogue atmosphere in Planeshift" and contained several detailed proposals for the PS team, including the cloaking one. The authors are Aiwendil, Elvi, Eurac, Garris, Kaisa, Lhaa, Lokter, Morla, Nedoko, Raekh, Semutara and myself. Taken from this document:
“Real” cloaking
People should be able to hide names and guild tags when at camp banished. Another idea would be a rogue's cloak, which you would obtain from a long chain of quests only for the "bad guys". If you equip the cloak on the back slot of your char, the model becomes a rogue model. No name or guild tag, but a green “Rogue” tag would tell other players that this is someone in disguise. The cloak should be editable, so that the standard player's description is replaced with the text written in the cloak. The default (and unchangeable) content would be 'A $racename in disguise' while a cloak name (unique) must be added (to enable identification of the player in main chat tab). If this is too complicated, a standard description would be an easy solution.
It might also be a good idea to make a char in a rogue cloak attackable by default. This might also be restricted to camp banished. Progression points and/or a loot of some tria might motivate an attack on a player rogue. The cloak should also only work in non-city maps.
A cloaked rogue would be able to attack (or maybe pickpocket). However, the victim would get warned with a message like "You notice a cloaked shadow appears behind you", then a timer would count down, giving the victim time to flee. The countdown time could be dependent on the skills „Hide in Shadows“ and „Pickpocketing“.
Pros:
- players could contribute to the bad reputation of rogues
- rogues would become more difficult to find and kill
Cons:
- OOC attacks
- abuse of anonymity
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There was a time in history when cloaks were used as a symbolic tool and were completely acceptable. Even if someone knew the identity of the wearer, they respected the wish to be incognito and pretended to not know them. A city official could wear a cloak to signify that they were on unofficial business. Two feuding families could attend each other's weddings, conduct business, etc while cloaked without offending their family. Cloaks were not always used for foul deeds.
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First off, it seems to me necessary that people can actually get away with crime… even if only temporarily or at the cost of always having to look over their shoulder in certain towns. Some sort of cloak/mask/whatever could be a means of accomplishing this essential. But why not take it a step (or 10) further?
What if being “cloaked” was possible within city walls, as long as no guard took any notice? It seems completely realistic that someone could find a dark alley somewhere, conceal their identity, and lay in wait for a target. And if a guard does take notice, well I am sure there would have to be some sort of penalty… perhaps a fine or even just having to hand over the disguise/cloak/etc. That is assuming they are not already wanted for some other crime…
But how can someone actually be wanted for a crime? The guards wouldn’t know… would they? As the old saying goes, ‘it takes two to tango’ so if you have criminals you have to also have law enforcement types. Why not have “victims” or nearby witnesses able to report a crime to the local guards, perhaps with some randomized information on the character that committed the crime? The amount of information gleaned could be directly based on the criminal character’s skills in Hide in Shadows, Pickpocket, etc. and/or the quality of the disguise they were using. If you feel like getting really fancy, the identity information could even compound based on how many witnesses report the crime and could possibly be based on what people actually have in their character’s physical descriptions!
If there is a way to report crimes, there also must be some sort of way to disseminate the information to citizens… for this I think a “most wanted” type system might work very well. Let’s say for a nominal fee a player could go to the local guard station and pick up a list with information on wanted criminals along with the reward for capture/kill. (That’s right, a system where you could get paid to fight crime!) Now, tria don’t grow on trees so obviously these rewards couldn’t be too much and obviously would escalate based on the severity of the crime… but, what if player characters could add to this bounty price?
Imagine your good pal gets mugged, murdered, has a shoe thrown at his head, whatever… and the perpetrator is now on the run from the law with a measly 500 tria reward for his capture… In your righteous fury, you can go down to your local guard tower and slap down 10,000 tria of your own money to add to the wanted price. That’ll draw the attention of those bounty hunter types and help expedite justice! In fact, why not go one better and make it possible to put up “unsanctioned” bounties… of course if you kill someone that isn’t officially wanted by the guards you would be breaking the law… which adds the awesome possibility of actually having law abiding AND illegal bounty hunters, and all shades of gray in between. As for guard sanctioned bounties, it seems plausible that a serious criminal could be wanted dead or alive, and the successful bounty hunter/vigilante/concerned citizen/community watch member/etc. would be able to decide the fate the same way they can currently choose whether they kill or spare an opponent. In this case, spare a criminal they go to jail… kill them and they go to the DR.
Alright, so it seems that there are at least some really cool possibilities that all spring from the ability to use a cloak type item… but, how can you prevent abuse? The biggest problem I see would be people rapidly hot-keying off a cloak when someone that can arrest/fine them spots them… thereby preventing a guard from doing his job even though it is painfully obvious it is the same character that just de-cloaked. Adding a “cool” down phase could help, for example, all the drawbacks of the cloak linger for a few minutes after taking off the item. This means a person fleeing and ditching the cloak could still be pursued but also has the chance to escape as long as he can avoid the people chasing him for a bit of time.
Also, I don’t think being wanted for a crime in one town should directly result in a character being wanted in another… this adds a sanctuary type aspect to things and could even make the “sanctioned” confronting of a wanted character in a different town a crime for the person that is trying to collect the bounty!
Anyway, these are just a few ideas that sprang to mind when I seriously started considering a mechanics based “cloak” system and honestly may have altered my opinion on cloaks, at least regarding their potential for RP in the future of PlaneShift.
Discuss, comment, flame.
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OK throwing this out here to play devils advocate.
It seems to me there is already plenty of criminal activity taking place in the game. Just to the in game events section and look at how many of the threads are centered around criminal activity. And there are additional crimes being done that aren't being written up in posted about. To me it seems that things are already unbalanced in favor of the criminal enough as it is. After all if a criminal is caught and killed what happens? after a short period the criminal s back, curse free and ready to conduct criminal activity again. Criminal doesn't want to be caught by the good guys? Criminal just jumps off a cliff or otherwise offs themselves and escapes via the death realm.
Seems to me if changes are going to be made to make it even easier for the criminals, and thus encouraging an even higher level of crime than we currently have, there needs to be changes so there are some real consequences to the criminal if they are caught. Consequences that go beyond the bad guy deciding on their own that it is time to end their current RP so they allow themselves to be caught or quit, which seems to be the current way a criminal activity comes to a halt.
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After all if a criminal is caught and killed what happens? after a short period the criminal s back, curse free and ready to conduct criminal activity again. Criminal doesn't want to be caught by the good guys? Criminal just jumps off a cliff or otherwise offs themselves and escapes via the death realm.
As far as I know, the only punishments are banishment (low laws, e.g. theft and hight laws, e.g. entering a burial well) and permadeath (high laws, e.g. pollution). I do not know about 'standard death' (the one which 'only' sends you to DR) as a punishment. However, most of the laws' descriptions are unclear about the punishments (leaving some freedom for interpretation, which might be good or bad).
Agreed on the cliff jumping. Criminals should rather cloak themselves and fight to death than taking the risk of being arrested and discovered, especiall when committing high crimes. That's how I play my criminal character.
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Ok, in my auctioning victims rp rigwyn is still at it because he has not been caught yet. I have not left many hints so far and I don't think its required. I have exposed rigwyn to being caught by exposing his plans ( event down to the exact time ) with other players who may betray him. As the end of the rp approaches I'm going to literallly bend over nd make it even easier for good guys to jump in and fight back. The only thing I'm holding back on is being careful about being uncloaked - because I worry that the ic consequence could be permadeath. If I had. Assurance that permadeath would not be n ingame consequence then I would go as far as being uncloaked.
As with previous crimes ( like killing mellas in the howling well ) I intend to full play out all consequences including rejection, mistrust, loss of friends, random attacks etc...
In planeshift we have WEAPONS up the yingyang .. Its about war, fighting, killing, conflict ... Yet so many want to just live in peace or something... To each his own I suppose but personally living a menial life in a virtual world is not my idea of fun.
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Get real kids, no matter what style of cloak it wont render you permanently anonymous, if the hood comes far enough over your face to make it impossible to see, you wont be able to see where you're going, every time you move there is a possibility of it coming open and revealing a glimpse of what's underneath, it won't disguise your height, mannerisms, voice or scent. The cloak itself may pick up dirt, stains or damage that makes it uniquely identifiable, the maker may use a distinctive stitch or colour.
In other words don't say I'm cloaked so people can not know who you are as that is just godmodding, go read Harry Potter if you want a cloak of invisibility.
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Could we have black ski masks then ?
And the ability to make our name show up as "somebody" in main ?
I remember the "somebody" issue from a while back but that was only a problem because by default everybody was "somebody" until you /greeted them
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Sorry for double post - I'm on a mobile device.
Perhaps with a skimask you name shows up as "somebody" until someone correctly identifies you
>Somebody says "stick em up"
>/identify somebody is rigwyn
>You failed to identify somebody
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Get real kids, no matter what style of cloak it wont render you permanently anonymous, if the hood comes far enough over your face to make it impossible to see, you wont be able to see where you're going, every time you move there is a possibility of it coming open and revealing a glimpse of what's underneath, it won't disguise your height, mannerisms, voice or scent. The cloak itself may pick up dirt, stains or damage that makes it uniquely identifiable, the maker may use a distinctive stitch or colour.
In other words don't say I'm cloaked so people can not know who you are as that is just godmodding, go read Harry Potter if you want a cloak of invisibility.
It's not reality, it's a game. People return when they get killed. If it would be impossible to cloak in a way that you cannot be recognised, crime would not exist in Yliakum. It's not godmodding, it's adjusting to the game mechanics. However, thanks for replying to this proposal after 10 months with a rejection of the idea, Mordraugion.
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It's not reality, it's a game. People return when they get killed. If it would be impossible to cloak in a way that you cannot be recognised, crime would not exist in Yliakum. It's not godmodding, it's adjusting to the game mechanics. However, thanks for replying to this proposal after 10 months with a rejection of the idea, Mordraugion.
Not true at all, people commit crimes with much higher chances of repercussions in real life all the time, I see no reason why this would be or should be different in a game where the punishment if caught is extremely minor in comparison. For the sake of game balance (cutting down on godmodding) and RP realism (aka not being taken out of the experience by ridiculous events) the possibility of failure and being recognized while concealed, no matter how slim of a chance, has to exist.
Cloaks don't make crime... people make crime. As Marqsaynt I may have "accidentally" committed a crime or two during the years... and to my memory I don't believe I ever wore a cloak while committing crime or any other time for that matter.
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Right now cloaks are too much of a RP crutch, most likely because mechanics aren't yet in place that help regulate the good guy/bad guy relationship in Yliakum. Since the fairness of things are for the most part determined by two often not-so-impartial parties... I can understand being tempted to use a cloak as a means to at least try to legitimize your character's stealthy abilities... But, for the love of Talad, there are so many crimes that do not require a literal "cloak and dagger" and honestly, if your criminal character is halfway skilled at what they are doing, there really shouldn't be any witnesses anyway. ;)
For the sake of role play, why not let someone accuse your shady character one of these days? A well thought out crime would leave very little evidence (maybe even a plant of fake evidence) and just for the heck of it, you could line up a buddy to vouch for your whereabouts during the crime. We have quite a few secret criminal organizations... wouldn't it be nice if you could rely on your fellow crook pals to at least give you an alibi? This at least opens up extra RP dialogue between the "good" and "bad" characters... and could even lead to things like criminal trials with plausible guilty or not guilty verdicts... a law abiding character taking justice into their own hands and avenging the crime without legal consent (ironically becoming a criminal themselves) and I am sure a ton of other possibilities that haven't even crossed my mind.
Take what you will from my personal opinions/experiences but at least consider this as a call to creativity, a chance to look at PlaneShift with fresh eyes and seek out new ways to RP.
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Ok, in my auctioning victims rp rigwyn is still at it because he has not been caught yet. I have not left many hints so far and I don't think its required. I have exposed rigwyn to being caught by exposing his plans ( event down to the exact time ) with other players who may betray him. As the end of the rp approaches I'm going to literallly bend over nd make it even easier for good guys to jump in and fight back. The only thing I'm holding back on is being careful about being uncloaked - because I worry that the ic consequence could be permadeath. If I had. Assurance that permadeath would not be n ingame consequence then I would go as far as being uncloaked.
Rig - I'm not complaining about anything in the Auctioning Victims RP since I haven't really been involved but using what you said to make my point. As the bad guy you can control how long or short the RP lasts due to the control of information. For example I believe last week some people had one of your co abductors trapped in the sewer. While your co abductor was able to escape the sewers because the good guys didn't want the hostage killed he was later confronted in the Laanx dungeon. Instead of being captured by the good guys and possibly forced to talk about who else was involved ( or trade information for his life) He escaped capture by jumping off a cliff. This just seems like a cheat for the bad guys. Want to avoid capture and possibly revealing any information about the crime(s) then take a trip to the death realm. It seems to me there should be a code of conduct, If you kill yourself to avoid capture then at the least the consequence should be the dead body is unmasked so that the person who died can be identified and later be hunted down by the good guys ( or more easily hunted down like giving the good guys the ability to put out wanted posterd on the now unmasked criminal.
Just like some people complain that GM events have pre-determned outcomes that can't be influenced by the players I think player run RP's should always be open to a disruption that can lead to an earlier than expected finish or which may force the RP into a different direction in order to keep it going.
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I agree that any form of godmoding is unfair... but suicide is a viable option as long as the player has the means and time to do it. Now if this guy was unarmed and in a safe place where he could not jump he would be screwed and just using a /die without a way to do it would be bad rp :) Perhaps some good guys could have chased him down in the death realm ? .. but I dont want to comment on that too much as I know very little about that particular event.
Regarding control of the RP yes, the bad guys have some control ... and so do the good guys.
You good guys have:
1. Allowed us bad guys to do bad things to your characters - thank you
2. Have allowed us to go undetected for this long - thank you again
3. Have granted us the ability to cloak - thank you again
And these are sincere thank you-s Im not being sarcastic or anything.
Without your empowerment we would be very lame and unsuccessful criminals.
I intend to give good guys a fair chance to get the same amount of enjoyment out of
this RP by not playing the godmod card with "perfect-cloaking".
One a side note, I guess I assumed you wer talking about the Auctioning Victims RP because
as a player I have a rather guilty conscience as a result of this rp :)
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firstly...I want to thank everyone who has been involved in this thread so far. It appears that this is an issue that needed to be discussed in detail (even if its issues that were previously brought up).
@Marqsaynt: I like the idea of an IG bounty system to encourage goodies to hunt baddies. Rping criminal activity is a two-sided coin and needs the involvement of both sides.
@Elady: I always see the jumping off the cliff as a plot device like in comics and movies, where the bad guy falls off, but no one sees the body. At the moment, there is no way to do this in PS without dying, but I think a reasonable suicide to protect one's identity is ok, but as Rigwyn pointed out using /die at every turn would suck.
And I think cloaks themselves are identifiable features as well. For example, Jonoth was the one Rigwyn has referred to as his accomplice to the murder of Mellas (in fact Jonoth was the one to do the deed if I remember correct). She would later identify him because of the sound his metal fingers made against the hilt of his sword. In addition, Jonoth is now hesitant to do any crime in front of her as she would recognize his cloak as well, so his disguise would actually give him away unless he get a new one. So its little things like this that makes it more living on the edge and makes the game more interesting.
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It's not reality, it's a game. People return when they get killed. If it would be impossible to cloak in a way that you cannot be recognised, crime would not exist in Yliakum. It's not godmodding, it's adjusting to the game mechanics. However, thanks for replying to this proposal after 10 months with a rejection of the idea, Mordraugion.
I'm afraid it is godmodding if you think that wearing a hooded cloak makes you impossible to identify. If you want to discuss further you know where to find me on IRC, I'm there most days.
And where does the 10 months come from? this thread is only a couple of weeks old
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I don't know about PhoenixRizin but I think that even a cloak that offered *chance* at being unidentified would be an improvement. ( The probability could be determined by the game mechanics - perhaps have a simple stat for cloaking )
And yes, in a case like this the player should still do something rp-wise to make the disguise realistic. It would be lame if they didn't.
If it would be impossible to cloak in a way that you cannot be recognised, crime would not exist in Yliakum.
I have to disagree with this statement somewhat. If cloaking is not possible then from a criminal's point of view crimes would need to be more brazen. Rather than being sneaky and tricking someone into following you to a remote place you would just club them over the head from behind, perhaps stalk them more or use someone else as a lure. If they see you they could report you .. yes, but you could always get them back in other ways - perhaps threaten to make their life hell if they blab, or to spread nasty rumors about them.
From the victim's point of view they might have the upper hand if they successfully identify you. It may be time to take the back seat and let them dictate how the scenario will be played out. They might take advantage .. and they should.
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I like the idea of maybe having a way to randomly be uncloaked/discovered. Maybe it can be a function of the cloaked person's charisma versus the victims intelligence. So a more charming person would be more likely to convince you that it is not them, as a more intelligent person is more likely to see through the ruse. As for more brazen crimes (I know a couple criminals who have be very open about being criminals), my question is more for the settings team, about jurisdiction. For example, if I commit a crime in Hydlaa, can I seek sanctuary in Oja from the guard? Or is a crime committed anywhere gonna lead to official guards hunting you anywhere. Obviously leaving Hydlaa would not stop the victim from getting a lynch mob together (which could be fun for RP), but I ask so that perhaps we see more criminals working uncloaked then retreating somewhere they cant be persecuted by law, only by vengeance.
@Mordraugon:
A. I think Org wasn't talking about permanent unidentifiablility as much as finding a way so that a baddie doesn't have to be identified every time. The key is balance and fairness and players giving opportunities to be found or to be hidden.
B. Why IRC when we have a perfectly good thread going here?
C. The 10 months refers to his older thread. Maybe someone has a link if its still up?
D. Altering mannerisms can often be referred to in our cloak descriptions (ie how Batman sounds like he has laryngitis to hide his voice, or walking with a limp that the normal char doesnt have)
E. Most importantly since you are the member of the PS team active in this thread, you seem to offer many criticisms but no suggestions for improvement. The other players here have managed to be a bit more helpful whether on the pro or con of the argument. I'd appreciate a bit more ways to improve a part of Hydlaa life that is not going anywhere anytime soon. Basically, I'm just asking for your suggestion on how SHOULD a criminal in Hydlaa operate, as opposed to the general feeling I get that crime is being fought OOC by discouraging ways criminals can operate.
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Why not use an alt to represent yourself when "disguised" ?
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I actually considered that but thought it would be cheating so I haven't.
If you consider this fair game then I'll start doing it.
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Why not use an alt to represent yourself when "disguised" ?
The only problem with the alt is that they are untrained, and training as it is takes a lot of time. So if there is any PvP, its the untrained cloak alt vs the fully trained opponent. The other option is a way to duplicate a character, but this can be abused if not limited properly. Perhaps limit 1 duplication per account? What does everyone else think about using alts?
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I agree with the training issue .. thats somewhat of a bummer if you have a well trained character but Its a tradeoff that I'm willing to try if other players accept it as fair play. As for weapon and magic skills training the alt to use a completely different weapon and or magic way might help to conceal his identity ( ie. say Rigwyn is known as a swordsman but when cloaked he wields an axe ( and perhaps somewhat awkwardly ))
I think there's a lot of things that would need to be taken into consideration in order to do this fairly. This opens up some more questions:
1. You would probably want to spawn and respawn in the same spot. It would not be fair for player x to log off in say BD as his cloaked alt and then log in at Oja with his uncloaked character. ( I don't think any serious role player would even consider something like this as its effectively teleportation )
2. I would say the cloaked alt should reveal his/her uncloaked character's name if he/she is uncloaked and the one uncloaking him/her knows the uncloaked character's name.
3. How would someone who *might* recognize them have a fair chance of discovering who they are ? Should they perhaps put some ooc text in their description like
"[ This person might resemble characterA or characterB.....]" Or do we leave it up to the rp for the player to drop a hint .. or mess up ?
4. it would be handy if a character could *become* his alt without logging off and back on. This would also give the other players a chance to *see* him/her cloak/uncloak. I would imagine that this might cause some nasty inventory problems though.
** A late thought .. and I'll probably get shot down for suggesting this **
It would be very interesting if one could switch from one alt to another on the fly at any time (ie. while running ) and teleport(and change form) as a result. If this were the case then seeing characters respawn, appear, and disappear would no longer look unnatural. Effectively a *spirit* so to speak would be able to inhabit multiple bodies - or perhaps characters in planeshift would have multiple bodies that go in and out of state ... something like how particles are said to behave in quantum mechanics. ( PhoenixRizin's original idea was much simpler though XD )
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I'm afraid it is godmodding if you think that wearing a hooded cloak makes you impossible to identify. If you want to discuss further you know where to find me on IRC, I'm there most days.
It is obviously not welcome to discuss the issue here. I don't see the benefit of excluding the player community by moving the discussion to IRC.
And where does the 10 months come from? this thread is only a couple of weeks old
10 months ago, I submitted a document to the settings team.[...]
PM me if you do not have access to this document and if you want to read it.
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It is obviously not welcome to discuss the issue here. I don't see the benefit of excluding the player community by moving the discussion to IRC.
Seconded. They don't support alternate opinions in their room anyway. OMG DID I JUST SAY SOMETHING AGAINST THE OPS. Tsktsk. Ban me nao, plx.
But anyway, @Rigwyn: lol, all I can say, as I confirm your hypothesis of shooting your idea down.
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if bad guys want to conceal their identities, maybe they should try covering their faces... with masks.... not hoods? there's this big hole in front of the face. not very good at hiding one's identity. and if I can't see your face, there's a good chance you can barely see me.
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It is obviously not welcome to discuss the issue here. I don't see the benefit of excluding the player community by moving the discussion to IRC.
Seconded. They don't support alternate opinions in their room anyway. OMG DID I JUST SAY SOMETHING AGAINST THE OPS. Tsktsk. Ban me nao, plx.
But anyway, @Rigwyn: lol, all I can say, as I confirm your hypothesis of shooting your idea down.
You are welcome to discuss here, I won't ban you for disagreeing with me however I will for trolling/flaming, but I don't see much discussion only repeated talk of cloaks making one impossible to identify which is frankly silly, will the cloak remain glued to your head in combat? Does it automagically give you all round sight so you can see the guy sneeking up behind you? This may be a fantasy world but use some common sense
I'm afraid it is godmodding if you think that wearing a hooded cloak makes you impossible to identify. If you want to discuss further you know where to find me on IRC, I'm there most days.
It is obviously not welcome to discuss the issue here. I don't see the benefit of excluding the player community by moving the discussion to IRC.
If you want to avoid a realtime active discussion on IRC with myself and other Settings Devs there's not much I can say
And where does the 10 months come from? this thread is only a couple of weeks old
10 months ago, I submitted a document to the settings team.[...]
PM me if you do not have access to this document and if you want to read it.
10 Months ago I was an inactive GM so no I haven't seen the document and I wasn't answering you directly but the OP, if you really want to push things through and get your ideas in game then you know what to do...
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if bad guys want to conceal their identities, maybe they should try covering their faces... with masks.... not hoods? there's this big hole in front of the face. not very good at hiding one's identity. and if I can't see your face, there's a good chance you can barely see me.
Think Ringwraiths.... the shadow from the cloak's overhang conceals the identity, especially in low light, or from any angle apart from head on in the light.... and just because you're standing in front of a cloaked character, doesn't mean he's physically facing you, he would naturally hide his identity by turning his face away.
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Yes Akkaido, that's exactly more closely how cloaks work. I dont expect someone who only wears a hood to do so in broad daylight or in a non-shaded area. And many who wear cloaks wear masks as well to add to concealing their identity.
You are welcome to discuss here, I won't ban you for disagreeing with me however I will for trolling/flaming, but I don't see much discussion only repeated talk of cloaks making one impossible to identify which is frankly silly, will the cloak remain glued to your head in combat? Does it automagically give you all round sight so you can see the guy sneeking up behind you? This may be a fantasy world but use some common sense
Again..you have managed to criticize and not offer ANY viable solution...should we wait for XilliX to add another good point of discussion? I don't mind that you are on the con side of the argument, but offer ideas instead of calling it silly. Despite what you say this is an intelligent discussion of cloak usage and how to play it fairly. And I'm gonna ask you kindly again as someone who is supposed to be a moderator to be a bit more civil. You are smelling of troll at the moment and you just said you'd ban trolls.
If you want to avoid a realtime active discussion on IRC with myself and other Settings Devs there's not much I can say
I prefer this thread as it is recorded for evidence and doesn't exclude players based on timezone. No one is avoiding you. Just keeping the discussion as open to as many points of view as possible.
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Could you identify this person ? No
Would you trust someone who look like this ? No
Might a guard question someone who looked like this ? Maybe .. in Hydlaa Yes
Is this cloak effective ? Yes
Is it failproof ? No - it could be yanked off, burned, etc...
(http://z.about.com/d/goeurope/1/0/G/-/2/venice-carnevale-masks-6.jpg)
How about this figure ?
Could you identify their face ? no
Could you pick up on things about their body like height, build, etc.. ? Yes
Is this cloak effective ? Yes - for obscuring the face - assuning that the body itself does not have any identifying scars or features
Is it failproof ? No - if you tackled him you could yank the mask off but it looks a lot more secure than the cloak in the 1st image above
(http://www.starstore.com/acatalog/avpr-masked-predator.jpg)
Finally, how about this one .. Would you be scared or suspicious of this guy ? Heh, I wouldn't
Is the cloak effective ? Yes - as long as he's careful to keep his head down
Does he have a 100% chance of being disguised - if seen from behind you would only see the cloak so yes. If seen from the front only the top half of his face is hidden so maybe yes, maybe no .. likewise if he tilts he head back his entire face would be exposed.
Would it be good in combat - No
Would it be good for other thins ? Yes - traveling from point a to point b..., getting within range of an enemy, remaining anonymous in a non-combat situation
(http://www.cloakrenaissance.com/products/cloak/cloak-100000677-1s.jpg)
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Again..you have managed to criticize and not offer ANY viable solution...should we wait for XilliX to add another good point of discussion? I don't mind that you are on the con side of the argument, but offer ideas instead of calling it silly.
So only criticism with viable solutions is acceptable, despite no one answering my points about the impracticabilty of perfect anonymity from cloaks?
Despite what you say this is an intelligent discussion of cloak usage and how to play it fairly. And I'm gonna ask you kindly again as someone who is supposed to be a moderator to be a bit more civil. You are smelling of troll at the moment and you just said you'd ban trolls.
I said nothing incivil, unlike Timmy and yourself I didn't make pointed and direct insults. Read the definition of Troll (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troll_(Internet))
If you want to avoid a realtime active discussion on IRC with myself and other Settings Devs there's not much I can say
I prefer this thread as it is recorded for evidence and doesn't exclude players based on timezone. No one is avoiding you. Just keeping the discussion as open to as many points of view as possible.
It wasn't directed at you but Org and he knows why, but you are welcome anytime
@Rigwyn
At last some salient points however may I add
1.
Would also cause suspicion to normal citizens
Useless in combat situations
It is effective as long as the wearer doesn't move, speak or smell
Is identifiable on its own; style, colour, cleanliness, damage, wear and tear
2.
Better but still very obvious especially to guards, not going to sneak around Hydlaa dressed like that
Is identifiable on its own; style, colour, cleanliness, damage, wear and tear.
3.
Now this is my idea of a cloak.
Not so sure it'd be good for travelling with the hood up, some nasty outlaw or ulber could still blindside you.
I think if there were a lot of similarly cloaked baddies out there, the general populace would soon become suspicious
Is identifiable on its own; style, colour, cleanliness, damage, wear and tear (unless you bought a new one everyday and the tailor didnt have an identifiable technique)
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Rigwyn, you'd be able to see the face of the first one if he was looking your way.
on the second... no, just no. predators aren't even trying to hide their identities. find a better picture. maybe one that's human lol.
and the third. honestly, what self-respecting criminal would wear that? that's more like a sexual predator dressed as a monk. the hood renders his peripherals blind, and he can't see where he's going without looking at the ground. besides, you don't need to have eye contact to recognize someone.
if bad guys want to conceal their identities, maybe they should try covering their faces... with masks.... not hoods? there's this big hole in front of the face. not very good at hiding one's identity. and if I can't see your face, there's a good chance you can barely see me.
Think Ringwraiths.... the shadow from the cloak's overhang conceals the identity, especially in low light, or from any angle apart from head on in the light.... and just because you're standing in front of a cloaked character, doesn't mean he's physically facing you, he would naturally hide his identity by turning his face away.
ringwraiths are invisible. they're not human. give a better example.
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@Sarras
The first one has a mask so no, you would not see their face .. for all i know there may not even be a person in there at all.
The point of the second image was to illustrate the idea of a person wearing something that conceal their face only. ( Imagine that thats a Nolthrir with a mask and funky armor )
@Mordraugion
I agree on your added points .. Also what I did not mention ( and you did earlier ) is limited visibility and perhaps limited range of motion.
Yes, a cloak will always be identifiable in itself - but the intended purpose would be to hide the identity of the character. The cloak could be discarded or replaced if it becomes known. I agree that the first two are not really realistic however they serve to illustrate pros of cons of a cloak/disguise that would fully cover the body or in the case of the middle one the face only.
You mention that a person can also be identified via speech, smell, unusual movements, scars, perhaps a weapon or shield etc.. I have absolutely no argument with that - in fact personally I think its good rp to make sure and drop some hints like that.
I would find it hard to tell for example who was inside of a full suit of plate armor (including gloves and boots ). Given the image below, replace the helmet with an open helmet available in game, and the face can be seen.. though add a ski mask under the helmet - or partially wrap the head like a rogue and the person will be much harder to identify. Imossible ? no. Diffucult ? yes.
I think that the effectiveness of the disguise should be decided by the victim or a dice roll - in the same way that the victim chooses the effect of the aggressor's action in an rp fight. ( or better yet via the game's mechanics )
(http://www.aurorahistoryboutique.com/products/A000019_L.jpg)
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So only criticism with viable solutions is acceptable, despite no one answering my points about the impracticabilty of perfect anonymity from cloaks?
The "perfect concealment" by cloaks has been referred to and debated several times in this post (feel free to go back and reread). And the other thing that seems to be assumed is that every criminal is a smart one who will have a perfect disguise, but there is no criminal handbook being handed out at the rogue camp warning new criminals how to best cover themselves.
And yes...I'd love to hear a response from you that isn't 'cloaks are silly' or 'they couldn't see'.
The original goal of the post was to find a way to set more visual cues about the current look of the characters. If I walk around in my regular garb, most players will greet me by name unless pointed to the description. It has turned into a very good discussion about cloak usage and godmodding through concealed identity.
A final note, I realize that amongst the criminal element 'cloak' is often interchanged with 'disguise'. So while in the strict sense its just a coat with a hood, a lot of the baddies are referring to disguises in general (ie ones with masks, etc). A character may wear a cloak and fully wrap their body with dark cloth under it, leaving small slits for the eyes. You'd be able to guess their size and maybe race, but you may not be able to point them out in the street, which is what I believe Rigwyn's point was with the three examples. Not that someone would look exactly like the predator, but maybe they wear a costume equivalent to the setting, but then wear regular clothes outside of that. In addition, the criminals I've seen usually go somewhere to cloak up or to cloak off, so 1) no one see's them get into disguise, and 2) because clothes take time to actually put on.
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@Sarras: The Ringwraiths in Lord of the Rings didn't need any or much CGI to cover their faces, did they?
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@Akkaido, they also didn't see with their eyes.
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Guess which famous actor this is. ( don't cheat by trying to look at the url )
(http://touchexplode.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/11/baja-maskedgunman.jpg)
Don't know ? Can't determine if its a famous actor or not ?
Then a simple ski-mask is effective.... even though its not perfect.
Also , if you were held up by this guy .. and perhaps somewhat shocked or panicked...
How good of a description might be be able to give to someone else ?
How useful would the verbal description really be anyway ?
( and before you say Oh, cops are always nabbing people after seeing really crappy police sketches keep in mind that good guys in-game don't have the insane resources that RL cops would have. Ok, so we have a klyros operated computer in the winch thats probably about as powerful as a TRS-80 model III )
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Even with the ski mask there are still certain basics that could be used in the description: Gender, ethnicity, height, build, eye color... and since most people in PS carry around weapons (hopefully sheathed) the make of the weapon could also be an identifier. Even a very good disguise would yield some information.
Usually I am not a fan of “dice” role-playing but here is an idea I had that might actually account for the possibility of being recognized while cloaked/disguised/whatever without replacing the human RP aspect. I remember a certain shady Klyros that used dice rolls to simulate the possibility of him being recognized when he came back after a long time with a new look.
Alright, let’s say a thief character, wrapped up head to toe like a rogue, corners another character in a dark alley in Hydlaa and takes off with their tria pouch. If these two characters do not know each other and the criminal character really is concealed well the “victim” has, for the sake of example, a 10% chance of getting a good ID on the thief. So, this person would /roll 10 and depending on the number they rolled, that would be how much information they can glean about their attacker. Of course, this would mean that “bad guys” would need to add physical attributes to their descriptions. (something that should be in most already). This could also allow people to post the “wanted” posters like those that occasionally come up on the forums or describe their attacker without any OOC “/me [describes a character that looks like Marqsaynt] .” kind of dialogue.
Example:
*Marqsaynt sneaks up behind Bad Luck Chuck and presses a dagger to his back*
Marqsaynt says: Long trip to the Death Realm… But don’t worry; I got paid well to send you the fast route.
*Bad Luck Chuck uses his only defense and sneezes on Marqsaynt*
*With an irritated sneer Marqsaynt thrusts his dagger*
*Bad Luck Chuck falls to his knees*
*With his dying breath, Bad Luck Chuck glares at Marqsaynt*
Bad Luck Chuck says: I’ll get you Gadget…
Bad Luck Chuck has died.
/roll 10
Bad Luck Chuck has rolled a 5.
---
Marq’s Description:
1. – (Perfect Crime)
2. Male
3. Diaboli
4. Tall
5. Athletic Build
6. Blue Eyes
7. Black Hair
8. Leather Armor
9. Scar on Cheek
10. Medallion of Laanx around Wrist.
---
Since Chuck rolled a 5, this would mean that he would have observed everything at number 5 and below. These features he would be able to use in a description to authorities, wanted posters, etc. In this case the attacker would be described as “A tall, athletically built, male Diaboli.” It is a fairly generic description but one that at least rules out a huge chunk of the population and could make the purveyor of the crime want to lay low for a while. Statistically there is always the chance they roll a higher number and glean a critical bit of identifiable information and even the slim possibility that the criminal pulls off the perfect crime.
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Let's see how much Info one could come up with about the person in the ski mask if they were there in person.
Let's see Skin color/race, gender, height, weight, color of the eyes, if any stray hair is visible ( sticking out under the mask) the hair color. Can also tell the person doesn't have a mustache If the masked person speaks then you can get the sound of his voice and any accents. Also if he opens his mount you might pick up on anything special about his teeth ( broken, discolored etc). Again if the person speaks you could pick up on any unique speech patterns. Depending on where you ran into this masked person you might even be able to pick up on smells like if the person has body oder, the smell of the person's breath. You could probably pick up which hand the person is.
While none of the above will give you a specific person by themselves, or even a number of the above collectively, it can certainly narrow down the number of people on your suspect list and it can limit how many people you need to look at more carefully to help solve the crime.
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@Sarras: The Ringwraiths in Lord of the Rings didn't need any or much CGI to cover their faces, did they?
first of all, that's not something you use CGI for. the method of hiding their faces is an effect created by lighting and veils (or whatever they're called). (they could have used CGI for the faces but I really doubt they'd do that when there's less expensive ways.) second of all, that method won't work irl.
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For all intents and purposes, from this day forth, "cloak" = "bhurka".
Islam on PlaneShift! \o/
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I'm not good at this but let me still have a try.
Cloaks aren't meant as a disguise. From Wikipedia:
"A cloak is a type of loose garment that is worn over indoor clothing and serves the same purpose as an overcoat—it protects the wearer from the cold, rain or wind for example, or it may form part of a fashionable outfit or uniform. Cloaks are as old as human history; there has nearly always been some form of long outer garment used to protect people from the weather. Over time cloaks have changed their look to match current styles and textile needs.
Cloaks generally fasten at the neck or over the shoulder, vary in length, from ankle all the way up to the hip, mid-calf being the normal length. They may have an attached hood, and may cover and fasten down the front, in which case they have holes or slits for the hands to pass through. However, cloaks are almost always sleeveless."
This means that according to weather you might see many and even the majority of the people in cities and on the roads wearing cloaks. My char as an example wears a travelling cloak which serves the purpose to protect her from the cold in the mornings too because she's more often on the roads than in the warm comfort of a soft bed. And this lifestyle is reflected in her garments covered with dust.
If you still need to see what a normal cloak covers, take a look at these. Didn't have time to search for better panels.
http://www.onemanga.com/Vinland_Saga/30/10/
http://www.onemanga.com/Vinland_Saga/20/18-19/
http://www.onemanga.com/Vinland_Saga/22/07/
My char rarely wears her hood up but she almost always has her cloak (cold mornings suck without proper clothes, you see...).
I like the idea of changing the clothes you normally equip on your char when you are disguised. I still ended up meeting Allola when she was wearing a helmet=disguise and saying "cool helmet" though. People will need some time to learn and get used to shady characters disguising in such a way. Of course, you should wear a disguise with some characteristic threads to allow being recognized. It can be fun to roleplay that too ;). Being chased is one of the highlights of being a baddy :P. Considering a victim will most likely be startled when attacked and therefore not being able to notice and remember all details from the attackers outside appearance, I think Marqsaynt's suggestion can be pretty useful (dice rolling thingy).
Oh, and btw a disguise are not always just clothes or any other material stuff.
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Hmm...
Being fashionably impaired my characters too lack fashion sense. Rigywn wears a cloak and some kind of mask when doing nasty things for the purpose of concealing his identity. He doesn't really care too much what he looks like. The decision factor in selecting appropriate garb for him is to get something that conceals as much of his body as possible ( within reason )
Getting back to PhoenixRizin's original topic .. it would be nice if there was an easy way to *visually* tell if a character was *disguised* or not rather than making a boo boo and then having to back peddle. I think by *cloaked* he meant *disguised* .. but I don't want to put words in his mouth. Perhaps leave the actual details and effectiveness of the disguise to the players.
The Idea of using an alt is good .. though It will take a little time to figure out how best to do it fairly and to see if other players agree with it.
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Now we're getting to the part of the English language where you realise that one word has two different meanings.
"Cloaking" can either be the act of wearing a cloak, or disguising/disappearing through the use of some form of device (mostly used in sci-fi).
So by "Cloaking' he may have meant the second meaning, not necessarily the implementation of a cloak model.
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Yes, to cloak ( the verb ) thats what we've been talking about all along. For a native english speaker I think using the word cloak in this context is pretty obvious however perhaps we failed to take into consideration that the verb form of the word cloak may not be quite as common to non native speakers. Appologies if there was any misunderstanding.
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Yes, to cloak ( the verb ) thats what we've been talking about all along. For a native english speaker I think using the word cloak in this context is pretty obvious however perhaps we failed to take into consideration that the verb form of the word cloak may not be quite as common to non native speakers. Appologies if there was any misunderstanding.
I'm a native english speaker and that confused me. seems like you're a little mixed up. usually cloaking means to hide something completely (such as a submarine or troops), not disguise.
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::|
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Considering the way cloaks (the clothing item) are used in PS, I don't think anyone can claim that this entire thread discussion was about science fiction style, beam-me-up-Scotty kind of cloaking. In fact, given the setting of PlaneShift, it seems an odd assumption to make that cloaking (the verb) would even be possible. However, I have always been for creativity in the ways a person can conceal their character's identity and am glad that the dialogue has expanded more to disguises and any other way a person can hide their usual identity.
And yes, I am also a "native." (English speaker ;))
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Well, when you consider the Azure Way, and how peoples make up their own spells every day, beam-me-up-Scotty cloaking doesn't seem totally out of place anymore.
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We were never talking about a perfect disguise in the first place ...
The original post was just a request for a way to visually show that a person is disguised.
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We were never talking about a perfect disguise in the first place ...
The original post was just a request for a way to visually show that a person is disguised.
Yes...the thread was originally about just having a visual cue instead of debating the quality of an individual disguise, but I am actually glad that many of the feelings about cloaks were brought up. It helps baddies try to do it in a much fairer way while helping goodies understand the purposes and motivations behind it. Hopefully this will lead to better RP situations and just more fun between the players. So I guess the next logical thing is...with everything that has been discussed, what does everyone think is the best visual cue to give players that someone is (or is at least trying) to disguise themselves outside of their normal appearance? A model change? A character change? A /say in main? What's the best way to prompt someone to check the description to find out if they would or could identify the cloaked assailant?
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Well, bringing it back on topic, the model for a cloak for each implemented race would not be hard to create, with a hood, the only nuisance would be creating a fitting animation for every animation PS characters have, so that the cloak does not sit still while the arms/legs move, and seems to cleanly flow with the character, whilst keeping him/her disguised.
Other decisions would have to be made such as whether to tuck hair out like with helmets, etc.
Edit: had a wee brainwave. This would only help the Outlaws while they're all wanting to be cloaked (I assume you often have guild events where you perform group crimes cloaked).
You can change your guild name to Cloaked and turn off secret, that way all players would know upon mouse over that you are in fact wearing a disguise. It solves a small amount of the problem.
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Not a bad idea, however there are more often then not instances where certain members will be cloaked to do evil deeds while others remain uncloaked elsewhere to avoid suspicion. I do like the idea of cloaked being somehow in the name tag. Perhaps this can be done in lieu of a model? Again the purpose is just to poke onlookers to that description, or to alert them that something is abnormal about the player's appearance.
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I can make hood type disguises (4 races modeled so far), but full cloaks are another matter due to complicated physics etc.... needs dev team work.
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wasn't this about cloaking as a disguise and not as a garment? just make a mask and call it a disguise. the overuse of cloaks in Planeshift seems to have made players believe that they're disguises. for criminals, cloaks (or jackets/hoodies irl) are a way to hide weapons, be unnoticeable, or just look intimidating.
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That, dear Sarras, is why the hood will be seperate from the cloak as far as your inventory and slots go.