PlaneShift
Gameplay => Wish list => Topic started by: LelureSogerom on June 04, 2010, 06:02:51 pm
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I don't know if what I heard is true, but I was told that Talad wants to make earning skill levels raise on a yearly basis.
Is that true? If so, I find it depressing v_v.
It would be nice if I could gain a level in sword making in hour instead of several weeks or months.
I love PS, but why did it have to go so hard on all of us?
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Really! once a year!
Well I have told the devs this over and over that I don't have time to spend hours trying to make my characters work well to fit in there profession, my OOC life is very busy! I have managed to find ways around so that if I am busy I may be able to get a little of PLing done while I go off and get some errands done. This is nonsense and I think that it should be very easy go up a level.
And RP includes using your stats and skills how can you be Vakachehk who is a protector if he can barely use a sword, cant hold Heavy Armor, cant even use his Heavy Armor, can't fun for long, etc etc. making it harder is just pointless!
If I pretend that Vakachehk is a protector but not using my stats and skills that is just going to make game play really bad, why did you add shaders to PS that lost a lot of good RPers, for game play sacks...
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@LelureSogerom: I doubt that it would ever get implemented that way. It's not feasible to do that without an upper limit which can be implemented from the start without the raising part.
@ Vakachekh: You can easily RP your character being a protector without loosing tons of time training. You just have to decide which is more important, being able to duel or having being a protector as a defining trait of your character. Being able to have the mindset of of a protector isn't solely dependent on the stats and is apart of the RP too. Have fun with the role if grinding for stats isn't fun enough. :D
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Training takes almost no time at all XD Only complaint I have is the cost of it.
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I don't know if what I heard is true, but I was told that Talad wants to make earning skill levels raise on a yearly basis.
Is that true? If so, I find it depressing v_v.
It would be nice if I could gain a level in sword making in hour instead of several weeks or months.
I love PS, but why did it have to go so hard on all of us?
don't just believe everything some weird guy tells? I suppose he either just made a bad joke or he/you got something wrong.
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people maxed weapon and armour in 2 weeks fine
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you mean rich kids who can't even bathe themselves and have all the time in the world? or the adult nerds living in their mothers' basements? i can't even stay online for 30 mins without crashing or having to quit out of frustration because i lag every 10 seconds. this is strange since my game behaved this way befor the server moved, when i had 500 ping, and now it's 100-200. g4yyy
illysia, a lot of players prefer to be able to back up their roleplay with skills. this is a video game. it should be played like one.
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This is an MMORPG not Halo, Sarras. I am well aware of different RP styles.
The only problem is becoming too tied to mechanics in this game. The mechanics haven't been fully balanced and not everything is implemented. It is always a good idea to be able to stretch a little beyond what you can actually do with mechanics (within reason of course ;) ) But anyone with limited time, and even those that are on all day to be honest, have to prioritize and decide where they lie on the sliding scale of storytelling vs using combat mechanics. You can only do so much in a given time. :)
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I live in my mom's basement,
hoping one day a hot chick will stare in amazement
at my skills.
That I accrued in a video game,
where I achieved great fame
as a badass.
Still livin in my mom's basement,
hoping one day a hot chick will stare in amazement,
and be like 'omg, that's hot'
at my warlock.
Took me a whole year,
of endless hours and shouting "NO FEAR!"
I had my hot pockets and my doritos,
but by the time I had 100 sword I ran out of fritos!
If only I could spend less time doing the grind,
to scour Yliakum so I can find
some roleplay.
Somethin better to do
instead of playing this game, even on the Lou.
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Yeah, it's the people that are willing to sacrifice their entire weekend and all or most of their evenings - even their days, in the case of the unemployed - to this game that max things in two weeks. And then there's all that mining you have to do to fund it. The ones with too much time on their hands will always have an edge over the rest of the players; making it easier to level will be beneficial for the ones with lives.
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If anything, I think lowering the cap level is the most likely to do good. 200 is a bit outrageous and I've seen less than 20 done effectively and result in more crafting skill cooperation, too I might add.
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This topic is somewhat repetitive, and I would have said something about it, but everybody (even mr. poet) has said what I would have. Darn.
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I don't know if what I heard is true, but I was told that Talad wants to make earning skill levels raise on a yearly basis.
Is that true? If so, I find it depressing v_v.
It would be nice if I could gain a level in sword making in hour instead of several weeks or months.
I love PS, but why did it have to go so hard on all of us?
if he made how long it takes any slower or harder then it already is now, people would just stop playing, and eventually the game is deserted, and all the years put into it would be wasted effort, i doubt he'd want that
people maxed weapon and armour in 2 weeks fine
yeah, mabey the people who spend a good 12 hours a day playing, i've played this game for over a year, and i STILL havnt maxed my sword, i've been busy hanging at a friends, or messing around at the stonehead :3 but i fight monsters constantly, and it takes pretty much all day long just to get 1 lv in sword, id much rather just do things with my guild
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if levelling was easier, there'd be no "roleplayers vs powerlevellers". no mad grinders to whine about, and no whiny roleplayers to whine about either! :D
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if levelling was easier, there'd be no "roleplayers vs powerlevellers". no mad grinders to whine about, and no whiny roleplayers to whine about either! :D
If for no other reason, make it easier because of this.
Then again, we'd probably still find something else to whine about. Us PS players are a fussy bunch. ;D
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Then again, we'd probably still find something else to whine about. Us PS players are a fussy bunch. ;D
like everyone is maxed and it's all flat :)
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Making the skills harder or easier to level is a superficial change (as is making them more profitable or less), compared to changing how skills work to remove grinding completely. This can be accomplished ~3 ways. The first and foremost (and frowned upon) is to be allowed to automate tasks so the player no longer has to spend time waiting. {Waiting to get somewhere, waiting to finish a task, waiting for a task to be finished, waiting for the next level, waiting for enough supplies. All this time spent waiting in these MMOs is their most horrible product, or non-product as the case may be.} This can either merely be the ability to program shortcuts, or an entire system, even economy, based around allow the player's character to do something when the player isn't there. The second solution is detail work covering the economy and skill system of the entire game, to balance it so that you are never just "leveling up a skill" but are instead "filling an order" or "helping one more skilled to fill an order". The third is similar to the second, but involves placing numerous fluid limits and discouraging mechanics to iron the system into shape (players generally hate this unless the programmers were subtle and the players don't remember what they're missing).
Since the second and third require more details and more paragraphs than I'm willing to collect or create, I will only finish the first here. Currently the shortcut system is just a way to keep from having to type so much, but could be expanded. By adding support mechanics for timers, triggers, better targeting, arguments, and minor movement, a person would be able to create a single button labeled "smith (metal) (object)" to complete the entire (now decently complicated) task. Thus allowing the person to do other things that aren't quite so pointless or ephemeral.
As I understand it, people find this system despicable, as it removes the "effort" (read "monotonous clicking") and "perseverance" (read "time dumped") required to gain higher skill levels. I don't mean to mock this point of view, and understand it, especially from those who have had to go through it. If such a thing is implemented, all the trouble they went to for their level is made less valuable (like stocks that go bad), because now no one else has to go through the same trouble they did to get that level. I can't think of any solution to the emotional component to that, but I know that it would be much better people didn't have waste their time persevering through the monotony.
The expanded shortcut system would still require that the person watch what their character is doing, and react when someone comes by. Chatting would disrupt the system in some cases, but one of its main values would be the ability to do so while you work; be it in speech, tells, or the gossip channel. It would be good in this case if chatting during a high-concentration task would disrupt the automated system, while mindless tasks would have no problem.
That is just macros, but there is a far greater possible system. One in which your character, on your wish, will continue to do (a) certain thing(s) while you are logged off. The character would be passed off to the NPC server's control and follow a certain schedule you planned out before. Someone might say "but if everyone uses this all the time, skills levels might as well not exist", along with the fact that the server probably couldn't handle such a thing. The solution is thus; hunger, thirst, exhaustion, and disorder. When you use this system, your character will no longer be immune to these things; you must get food and drink, and find accommodations beforehand. The time your character can work, and the time required for life's necessities, will be displayed in its own window where you plan. During planning, you must tell your character exactly how they will organize the time those necessities grant them (with a time-block UI). This planning can either have a pre-set list of individual tasks you fill the time with, or can use something similar to the shortcut programming. It will also need to be decided whether or not such individuals will even be rendered (they could add real hustle and bustle to a city), or if everything they do will be calculated once then left as timers with dice rolls. If you do not use the system, your character will go into log-out stasis as usual.
What am I missing?
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What am I missing?
Readability
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The whole skill up while your logged off system kind of reminds me of Eve online. Though I must admit I only read about the game. Would be nice to know how it worked there for some form(though crude) of measuring its efectiveness.
Personally I don't think the whole "persist in the game world" part can be made to work without some very sophisticated programing.
The first problem would be the fact that an entire horde of mindless smelters at Harnquist's would break the RP into shriveled and dead little bits.
Second. Players would recognise these players(NPC's). Lets say my mindless drone self wanders around on the roads and bumps into an aquaintance that I'm not exactly on friendly terms with. Does the server let him fight back ? If so what if he had tools equiped, does it switch out weapons ? And a lot of tiny little problems. Also if you did let them attack and it was the mindless NPC fighting style I could see a lot of griefing happening every chance there is. STONES INCOMING !!!
Other then these few troublesome moresels I generally agree with you(Nivm). Reducing the time and effort it takes to max out characters isn't exactly good. I've seen it done in a few games most noteably in Dwarf Fortress on adventure mode. You could max you little fellow in an hour and go demon slaying. Not exactly enthralling. It also just makes you wanna waste that little bit of time to max out more.
Hope that was coherent. Aparently I'm too good not to be in a rush while posting.
What am I missing?
Readability
Ouch...
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Personally I don't understand this fascination so many people have with Maxing their stats/skills. I have been playing for the better part of two years now and I have two skills maxed. I don't feel a pressing need to hurry up and get other skills maxed. If it is made easier to max skills then guess what, everyone is going to be the same with the same skills and stats and then people are going to complain that what is the point of being maxed since everyone is maxed. The way some people are saying that grinding is bad for the game why don't you just go all the way with your argument and ask that when you first create you character give a player the ability to max all their stats and skills at character creation. Being maxed from the start will eliminate all need for that evil grinding. And while you are at it give all characters Winch access as part of character creation since it takes to much time to gain winch access.
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Sorry about that "readability" you speak, it has been a long time since I had trouble reading.
The technical difficulties are one reason why I called it a "a far greater possible system". This would be a massive undertaking that would cause great change within the game.
I didn't know that Eve Online used that kind of system, but I know that game focuses mainly on PvP, betrayal, and collecting large amounts of power. On it's good days it has large, destructive battles with multiple fleets of ships. So I assume that the general effect of this system is a change in focus from collecting resources to using them, and hopefully to player-interaction as well.
On those technical difficulties, they will add to the methods that discourage the constant use of such a system. That's why I included hunger, thirst, exhaustion, and the control difficulties involved. When you run out of any resource, the character will be placed in normal log-out stasis (I thought this was implicit). The person using it must also understand the dangers involved (assuming that the characters will be visible in world, and assuming it isn't all turned to a simple timer with numbers), including any confusion, possible griefing, and errors.
It would be mostly for those that wont expect the character to run into any trouble, and just want them to have a normal day of their lives; the crafters and workers doing on a daily basis. It would also be possible to hide names, or recolor them as NPCs, or even remove the option to attack them or interact completely; like a lot of NPCs.
Heh, Dwarf Fortress has a good skill system, but it's not the kind that can work with a multiplayer game, where people are competitive and want their skills to be valuable.
Oh, and just to make it explicit...
The way some people are saying that grinding is bad for the game why don't you just go all the way with your argument and ask that when you first create you character give a player the ability to max all their stats and skills at character creation. Being maxed from the start will eliminate all need for that evil grinding. And while you are at it give all characters Winch access as part of character creation since it takes to much time to gain winch access.
Someone might say "but if everyone uses this all the time, skills levels might as well not exist", along with the fact that the server probably couldn't handle such a thing. The solution is thus; hunger, thirst, exhaustion, and disorder. When you use this system, your character will no longer be immune to these things; you must get food and drink, and find accommodations beforehand.
The points are not worded the same way, nor are they the same idea, but address the same thing, and have the same answer.
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Personally I don't understand this fascination so many people have with Maxing their stats/skills.
This comes directly from applying a linear game mindset to a non linear game. Apparently some people cannot set level goals for themselves so they just keep on grinding or whatever they do till the mechanics stops them. Those kinds of people often treat maxing their stats/skills as an equivalent to beating the game, the problem comes though when they've max their stats and the game is still going with nothing else for them to substitute as an endgame.
The problem is less grinding and more being able to tell yourself that your character doesn't have to be maxed out and that it is capable of doing what it needs to do. For instance, once I realized that I wasn't going to unlock anymore recipes, I stopped training cooking and baking. At that point Illysia could cook whatever it was I needed her to cook and I didn't need to further waste time on it.
You just really got to have a goal of what you want your character to do more so than a number in mind. If you need to be able to hunt ulbers, then stop training once you can successfully take them down on a regular basis. ;) Only letting mechanics dictate when and where you stop becomes a type of Rule Playing (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RulePlaying) and though not bad in of itself, you can't get as much out of a Role Playing game that way.
But on the topic of how to arrange a system:
I think Mabinogi has a good system. Despite the lack of RP in most cases, it does have a pretty high level of player cooperation for things like crafting and such. It's normal skill cap for any skill is less than 20 without taking the advancement exam to get to beyond that. Even then, you can't go too much higher than that. And it only takes 100 points to rank the skill. (mind you that's where they kill you with point decrease per training method) They use a progression system somewhat similar to PS but on a way smaller scale and that smaller scale is what forces people work together. If you don't have the necessary AP (what their PP is called. ;) ) to rank up to the level needed to make something, you ask your friend that has already done it to come help.
Also, the way you apply AP helps. All the AP does is allow you to get the the next level to train it, unlock it if you will... Once you get the next level, you just follow what the skills window tells you to train. So for cooking, you have to cook certain types of food (as each type of cooking has it's own rank. i.e. boiling is it's own rank), you have to read a book on the next level, and then you have to eat foods of the relevant cooking type for your level. Once you do that, you rank up with the necessary about of AP and then train for the next level. The Mabinogi system allows for both the theoretical knowledge part, and the practical training part (killing mobs won't cut it for anything but combat training) but uses a way more efficient system.
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actually, i'd like to max out some skills just so my character can be super awesome. simple as that. it's not an endgame. you keep playing, questing, duelling, roleplaying, etc. i want to max because my character wants to max, too. she wants to become a guard or a great fighter or whatever. it's probably the same with all the "powerlevellers".
this is still a video game, after all. saying otherwise is lying.
isn't mabinogi for 10-year-olds?
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Personally I don't understand this fascination so many people have with Maxing their stats/skills.
This comes directly from applying a linear game mindset to a non linear game. Apparently some people cannot set level goals for themselves so they just keep on grinding or whatever they do till the mechanics stops them. Those kinds of people often treat maxing their stats/skills as an equivalent to beating the game, the problem comes though when they've max their stats and the game is still going with nothing else for them to substitute as an endgame.
The problem is less grinding and more being able to tell yourself that your character doesn't have to be maxed out and that it is capable of doing what it needs to do. For instance, once I realized that I wasn't going to unlock anymore recipes, I stopped training cooking and baking. At that point Illysia could cook whatever it was I needed her to cook and I didn't need to further waste time on it.
You just really got to have a goal of what you want your character to do more so than a number in mind. If you need to be able to hunt ulbers, then stop training once you can successfully take them down on a regular basis. ;) Only letting mechanics dictate when and where you stop becomes a type of Rule Playing (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RulePlaying) and though not bad in of itself, you can't get as much out of a Role Playing game that way.
But on the topic of how to arrange a system:
I think Mabinogi has a good system. Despite the lack of RP in most cases, it does have a pretty high level of player cooperation for things like crafting and such. It's normal skill cap for any skill is less than 20 without taking the advancement exam to get to beyond that. Even then, you can't go too much higher than that. And it only takes 100 points to rank the skill. (mind you that's where they kill you with point decrease per training method) They use a progression system somewhat similar to PS but on a way smaller scale and that smaller scale is what forces people work together. If you don't have the necessary AP (what their PP is called. ;) ) to rank up to the level needed to make something, you ask your friend that has already done it to come help.
Also, the way you apply AP helps. All the AP does is allow you to get the the next level to train it, unlock it if you will... Once you get the next level, you just follow what the skills window tells you to train. So for cooking, you have to cook certain types of food (as each type of cooking has it's own rank. i.e. boiling is it's own rank), you have to read a book on the next level, and then you have to eat foods of the relevant cooking type for your level. Once you do that, you rank up with the necessary about of AP and then train for the next level. The Mabinogi system allows for both the theoretical knowledge part, and the practical training part (killing mobs won't cut it for anything but combat training) but uses a way more efficient system.
I have level goals for Kaerli: however, in some cases, they are ABOVE the current maxima (when all's said and done, she's going to end up with with 150-175 in both Sword and Ranged, provided that they go that high ofc). Magic-wise, I'll probably get her up to 100 BrW and CW and 40-60 in most other Ways before quitting. :P
Keep in mind that some chars are supposed to be greats and it's a real disservice to their players if the mechanics won't let us play to them...:) (ex. Kaerli)
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I prefer to keep Esorono's stats as close to ic as possible. :3
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I prefer to play mildly understrength characters, not necessarily the BEST TRAINED, because I don't want to win everytime. And tbh that's what makes an interesting character. People want to RP with someone they feel they can win or lose against, not someone who will beat them everytime because the character is supposedly a "great".
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@ Nivm Your system is what is refferec to as 'botting', Setting up an alt character to solely mine for your main character with a program to make them dig in time, move over dig again, move over. This creates a very lopsided community and is why it is frowned upon.
About the powerlevelesrs some of them have been around so long that there is no changing their mind, and those are 'teaching' new players to do the same. I myself was 'taught' that levelling was the way to go when I fist started nearly 3 years ago, along the way I found it was a lot of time with little reward, My character is strong now Maxed in all stats 1 armour class and that is it he went on hiatus [as did I] He has returned and his goals are to increase in the desired areas as he grows, best way to do that is get the theoretical knowledge trained and as the experiences happen i.e. fighting or mining it grows
Thanks for reading this
Hrothbert
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I was fairly sure everyone understood how leveling works psychologically. That particular mechanic has been around for about fourteen years now.
Autoing, botting, macroing, or cheating; if it gets handled by the game, and integrated into the game, it ceases to be a problem. Since the game is causing it to happen, the developers, game masters, and moderators can control it all they want. If a person abuses the system, they can be asked to stop, then the system can be removed from that player instead of banning them.
Also, I apologize for letting the Skill Atrophy research stall. I read everything on it pretty quick, but now I have to finish writing it up.
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I prefer to play mildly understrength characters, not necessarily the BEST TRAINED, because I don't want to win everytime. And tbh that's what makes an interesting character. People want to RP with someone they feel they can win or lose against, not someone who will beat them everytime because the character is supposedly a "great".
It's possible to beat Kaerli; its just very, VERY few people ever figure out how on their own.
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I for one hope that hunger, thirst, etc don't get implemented in any way. It's a resource management issue, and I don't see where that is a desirable element in this game. Strategy games, action, etc where resources are limited then it becomes an integral part of the game. But in an open-ended system like this where it's not a problem to get more tria to buy the food you're just slowing players down, with no gain in a feeling of achievement.
But that's not the issue at hand. There are two general ways people level skills:
a) deliberately: I want a higher level in cooking, crafting, or whatever. So I repeat the same action hundreds of times until I gain a level, go to the trainer (who might be 15 minutes of running away), repeat.
b) incidentally: I get theoretical training, and let practice points accrue as I do stuff. I tangle with a mob, get hurt, cast healing spells; I just got a few crystal way, some weapons, armor, maybe repair.
While (b) is the preferred method of being able to level (I would say so), (a) is necessary when the current skill level is not enough to get you the results you want: I can't smelt gold, or the axes I craft are crap. Ideally, past a certain point I no longer need to focus on improving these skills, and let them improve as I do things that require these skills. Again ideally, I should be able to get to this point without too much tedium. (a) is the boring part, we'll all agree. Less so for skills like combat where a single action (say kill a rogue) yields plenty of practice points, plus has the added benefit of possibly generating loot. Crafting on the other hand, takes minutes to produce as many practice points (if that) and either produces nothing valuable (if you recycle the blades for training) or is materially expensive.
I think we'd see more success in making skill leveling less about drudgery. I'd love to see more support for macros, though I definitely wouldn't ask for automation. Doing away with so much mouse-clicking by allowing macros to manipulate containers (putting things in them, taking things out) would be a great idea I think, without increasing the possibility of abuse through automation.
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I think we'd see more success in making skill leveling less about drudgery. I'd love to see more support for macros, though I definitely wouldn't ask for automation. Doing away with so much mouse-clicking by allowing macros to manipulate containers (putting things in them, taking things out) would be a great idea I think, without increasing the possibility of abuse through automation.
Yes! Having to use mouse gestures for simple, day-to-day inventory/container juggling tasks makes crafting of any sort (or even mere item management) much more tedious than it needs to be. Being able to use /commands to handle the inventory/containers/... would allow us to set up shortcuts and make much more effective use of our keyboards (maybe even some of those extra buttons mice have been seen sprouting, too...;)
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Just why does game controlled automation sound so bad? It would be nearly perfect for the situation; especially because this game does not make money off of people wasting more time.
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Botting can lead to resource imbalances one way or the other. That's why it's pretty much banned in most MMOs. Not to mention that would be one more highly exploitable feature for people to try to hack into to and then would tie up time while the team tries to stop people from exploiting it. It would end up being more hassle than help.
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(Those PMs are going to make these conversations harder, since the questions will be worded so alike, but for a very different purpose.)
That answers why it might be bad, but not why people think it's so bad. It seems like MMO players immediately dismiss it as deplorable, regardless of any argument in its favor or disfavor.
Isn't the resource production in Plane Shift already imbalanced? The complaint department says so, even if the complaints might not be verified. Supposedly the cities have numerous workers to supply the market with raw materials and the like, but the NPCs are sparse or non-existent. As a role-playing game, why would the players need to role-play mining and carting ore when there is no story involved? Perhaps not even idle chat?
I guess it probably would be easy to hack, as is much of the game, but the person would only need or want to when their privileges were revoked in the first place. Doing so would be what actually sets them up for a ban, as abusing the system does not equate it. The system would be in place to take care of the things you character would be doing as part of their normal, boring job(s). The player doesn't get anything out of the time spent repeating the same pattern of clicks a hundred times or more; their role-play can be just as fun if they don't grind for anything.
I'm obviously partial to this, but I think that's because I can't be totally sure what it's going to do. We can think of reasons and possibilities, but I don't think this has ever been implemented before. A bit of research on eve shows something similar, in the form of built facilities (like those slow war games that have been popping up), but nothing involving the actual character.
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The problem is that it becomes a matter of putting out a fire with a flamethrower instead of a water hose. Twice PS's Economy got shot behind a surge in raw materials coming in and being sold for high prices. (Gold and Plantinum) If it had been even easier to have mined those two ores, the effect would have been even worse. The problem is not so much mining resources that way but the after affects of botted mining. Already the inflation is pretty high, and that's just for regular items. It shouldn't cost you more than a circle to get a full meal from NPCs but the prices are outrageous now. That's not to mention the prices on big ticket items like guild houses and GM gear.
The only reason the inflation is so high is because the economy is already flooded with too much tria from mining and if you add in botted mining, it gets way worse. Also, let's not pretend that the majority of bot miners wouldn't be at the nearest gold mine or plat mine should another be placed. Most of the people that would use it would being doing it for money, not because it's a part of a character's story, not because they need it for crafting, just for making more money plain and simple. However, if there was less tria coming in from mining, people wouldn't need to mine so much and most of the tria sinks could be removed.
And on the topic of mining RPs, it was actually kinda fun to RP with other people while mining. Especially when you'd stop and take a break from it to sit and converse with other miners taking a break. Pretty much any task can be turned into a fun RP, even if only a fairly quick one, if the players have enough imagination for it. It's one of the reasons that Illysia's first profession was as a miner, I had a lot of fun in the mines way back when.
I have to say that reducing the amount of tria it takes to train and reducing the amount of training needed per skill level is sounding more and more appealing. If nothing else, I admit that it probably would force the people that do nothing but grind to either RP, sit around, or leave out of boredom. I think now I'd like to see the effects of doing that.
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In a real economy, adding more wealth (even if it's precious metals) should not increase inflation, since inflation is caused by increasing the representations of the wealth instead of the wealth. War and disasters would decrease the general wealth, and thus the value of money (even though tria are not notes of commerce, and thus aren't even representations), while fruitful labor would increase the general wealth and value of money.
I see Plane Shift economy (Yliakum settings economy would act normal, kinda) doesn't work that way, but exactly why is it so? (Rhetori▬) From the bugs and suggestions I've seen on the tracker, and conversations here, it doesn't look like the economy conserves anything. Wealth comes into existence and ceases to exist upon the guided and controlled whims of the players, using a number of production sources and sinks. Tria acts just like printed notes would, because they are of infinite source (like a government immediately minting notes in response to any wealth created) from traders who (quickly|instantly) eradicate the goods.
So the inflation exists because for any wealth created, more tria are ~minted to represent that decreased wealth. The players doing it more will make it worse, but as long as it's designed that way it will be a problem. (Or the reverse, where there are too many sinks and people run out of the inflated money.[sarc] Or worse, complain that they aren't rich enough![/sarc])
Along with conservation, it would be good for the economy to care about a system of supply and demand; including all it implies.
Yeah, but the consequence to making leveling easier is that people wont get to use their levels to be elitist (a...bad thing?), and those non-role-play newbs will be more likely to attempt "lording over" others with their perceived power. A direct method will make it suddenly feel like the level caps are far too low.
I don't know whether it would be a good thing or not. Can you think of any MMO that hasn't relied on hard leveling as part of its foundation?
Edit: Oh, and I'm doing it again; almost 18 hours now.
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I've been thinking. As far as the increase/decrease difficulty problem goes, I think that maybe we are as balanced as the current level of mechanics will allow. Toss it low and we get capped out people left and right and RP becomes even more monotonous then it already was (too many unbeatables), throw it low and people will ceace leveling at all in good part.
The only two roads I see would be to make leveling be quest based or stick with what we got. Go on adventures of increasing difficulty , this would add the need for others skills to support yourself. As well as giving players a chance to go head to head in some quests or work together. But I believe that would be going off-topic.
In short. Messing with balance is tricky.
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I have an idea but I do not know if this will work well or not.
Our skills in real life are not, we could say, permanent nor we could learn everything. As I have heard somewhere, you cannot be good in everything. To balance the skills I think skills need to "level down" If not practice on enough. I mean If I am not playing my guitar for 2 years or at a time length like that, I would forget some ways to play it but still having the skills to play the guitar. Another thing to balance skills is the number of skills. I mean, yes, there are Prodigies out there that are pro at everything but not all. So if one learns metallurgy and fishing for example, It need to be split to 50% to 50% of the skills. In other words, they are sharing. Most can't probably understand this. Yes I wrote it in gibberish form. It is kinda hard to explain it but it is in my head
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So if one learns metallurgy and fishing for example, It need to be split to 50% to 50% of the skills. In other words, they are sharing. Most can't probably understand this. Yes I wrote it in gibberish form. It is kinda hard to explain it but it is in my head
I think I get that part - like you only have so much capacity to learn a skill. Instead of starting at zero and working your way to 200, you'd get a set number that drains as you go.
Even that would stop after a while, though - talent only gets you so far. Even the most skilled artists I've known still have a lot to learn no matter where they are, and I'm sure the same goes for others with their respective talents. Perhaps you get a skill to ~100 or so after your talent giving you a boost in one skill, and from there on it's leveling the same way everyone else does.
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The long time that it takes to train encourages players to grind and train instead of role playing, though I sincerely don't think that was the original intention. I believe what was intended was just the opposite. Difficulty in leveling is there to keep people from getting too powerful too soon. This is well intentioned but clearly does not work. As Sarras pointed out, those with unlimited time will sit there and grind day in and day out. Those who play normally will be impaired. This is ass backwards.
People RP their skills in an attempt to be fair during RP .. so even role players need to grind and train.
To make money you need a skill, skills require leveling/grinding.
To craft you need money and skill... more grinding..
This is very antisocial.
> Player1: Hello sire, I see you have a hammer in hand. I seek the guidance of a seasoned smith.
> Player2: [ yah click harn ]
> Player1: [ Don't you want to rp with me?]
> Player2: [ hahah rp is for sissies. i need 2 make q300 swords so i can make tria for a guild house]
> Player1: [ A guild house? Ahh.. so you can rp in it?]
> Player2: [ duh u nub its for storing ore and swords. got2go p ]
> Player1: [ Why dont you use punctuation?]
> Player2: [inefficient bi 4 nao]
* Get rid of all the grinding and you will be left with nothing to do but role play.
* Make everyone equal in stats and there is no more need to play stats... ( think about that )
* Let characters choose their own level of proficiency ( some might choose to be less skilled just to be original )
Guess what, with no more competition for stats, skills, and money there is no incentive for players to cheat the system either. People who sit there and level all day will look for another game. Those who role play will now have unlimited time to do so.
But what about all the precious time that was put into coding the leveling system, economy, etc.. ?
Whats more important? some code or the rp community ?
Is the game about developing characters through role playing or is it about developing characters though leveling? Think about that. There is a huge difference between the two. Older single player RPGs were about developing a character though leveling.
Planeshift is basically a combination of both.. though somehow the game by design encourages leveling and discourages role play. On the other hand, people are told to roleplay and not grind.
I hope that makes sense.
Good Luck.
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I agree with Rigwyn, we should be able to choose our stats so we can find some people to roleplay with instead of searching everywhere for a person interested in role playing to appear. Although I have a feeling many people are going to be choosing to max out every skill, so there should be some limit to it, like only enough to max one skill and that's it. :sweatdrop:
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The problems with the roleplay community are not problems from the software, removing software features will not fix those problems.
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The problem with the game is that it is not desirable to role players.
Part of the problem is the need to train/grind.
Leveling gets in the way of role playing as illustrated in my previous post.
And what if everyone was equally powerful?
Whats so bad about that?
Those who play just to be uber-powerful would get bored and leave. They could either pimp up their stats on ez or find some other game to give them a false sense of self esteem. These are the crumbs of a role playing community. They contribute absolutely nothing to role play. That sounds really harsh but its true. Sure they may be very nice people but thats beside the point.
This is what would happen. You would be left with roleplayers and duelers. Those who wish to play a less powerful character would do so by choice. Not every roleplayer wishes to be the most powerful, earth shattering being possible. Good role players will be more focused on the story that their character generates and their interaction with other characters. Those who become powerful will be powerful only as a result of the community's consent. They will also lose their power the minute the community decides to stop giving it. In this case power is balanced automatically.
Duelers would still be able to enjoy dueling but without the need to level or earn tria.
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The problems with the roleplay community are not problems from the software, removing software features will not fix those problems.
I think it is. The previous comments involves with the software
I agree with Rigwyn, we should be able to choose our stats so we can find some people to roleplay with instead of searching everywhere for a person interested in role playing to appear. Although I have a feeling many people are going to be choosing to max out every skill, so there should be some limit to it, like only enough to max one skill and that's it. :sweatdrop:
That is close to what I was saying earlier. People just keeps levelling on their skill. there is no balance in the game. Right now, there is no difference between a miner and a hunter because both could learn them. I see many players who do fighting and also mine so they could earn money to train for their "fighting".
If they do not max their skill, or already has maxed their skills. Guess what they like to do? Kill creatures so they could loot "named" and powerful weapons and sell it so they could be rich. I have found many people like this, though not including those who are collectors but if you are a collector, why would you just roleplay buying that rare item? Rp how your character owned it or how they deserved it
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We know the points. We know all the points. It has been brought up countless times before. Despite presentation of ideas, conviction, drama and carefully-worded arguments, the mechanics remain in game. The mechanics have recently received an awful lot of work and development.
Could there be a chance that the concept of roleplaying as defined by the developers is perhaps considerably different than the concept as envisioned by countless members of the roleplay community in the game? Could it be possible that there are plans for roleplaying functions that will rely upon the mechanics being finished and working properly?
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Let's take a few examples:
Say a noob character starts off with the stats of a master cheff.
- the player might make souflettes and 7 course meals day one... Oh lord, how terrible!
- but wait.. How bad is it really? A new character might start off as an experienced cheff.. Is this so bad ? I don't think so.
- another player might enjoy making a character that is an inexperienced cheff. That's fine too.
As for roleplay standards, what should matter is that the player plays their role consistently. If they are starting as a master cheff then oocly they should be well versed in what foods are in the setting and how to prepare them or else they will look foolish. Alas, another self balancing system!
Apply the same logic to weapons and magic.
Joe noob makes a character with maxed sword and magic skill. Ok. He goes out and owns the ulbers and whatnot. He has his fun and then it gets old. If he is an idiot then he leaves. If he is a roleplayer ir dueler then he sticks around and has some fun.
If he is a roleplayer then he might be some kind of hero or villan, however ultimately he will only be as strong as the next player.should he enter a rp fight
then things like circumstance, choices and number of opponents will contribute greatly to the outcome.
Regarding money, let players have as much as they like.
Joe idiot will give himself 4 billion tria or whatever the max is. Before long he will realize that having that much money is meaningless as it does not make him any more powerful than anyone else.
Those who would exploit the game for money or stats would not bother since they could just be or have what they wish.
But wouldn't that trash the economy?
Yes, but in a positive way. With everything free, money would only be used for rp purposes... But its an rp game so that's fine.
But wait... Then nobody would care about having things? What fun is that?
Again, another self balancing system. Those who just don't get rp would walk away scratching their heads.
Those who wish to focus on making characters and dtory lines would say, ' wow, this is easy and efficient."
But then people won't be all addicted to the game?
Do you really want people to be addicted to clicking their mouse?
Wouldn't it be better if people were addicted to the rp instead?
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Sorry for the double post... I just saw your post verden.
No, the developer don't have rp in mind. Half of them don't rp at all.
Its been my observation the the ps team is trying to make a game that caters to both role players and levelers, however taking the middle road is making it less desirable to both parties.
It would be better if ps took one direction or the other and fully embraced it.
If ps is intended to be a leveler's game then by all means run in that direction and toss the role players to the curb.
It would be better if it was a mediocre leveling game or a mediocre role playing game.
Instead its a bad leveling and and a bad role playing game.
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Sorry for the double post... I just saw your post verden.
No, the developer don't have rp in mind. Half of them don't rp at all.
Its been my observation the the ps team is trying to make a game that caters to both role players and levelers, however taking the middle road is making it less desirable to both parties.
It would be better if ps took one direction or the other and fully embraced it.
If ps is intended to be a leveler's game then by all means run in that direction and toss the role players to the curb.
It would be better if it was a mediocre leveling game or a mediocre role playing game.
Instead its a bad leveling and and a bad role playing game.
you never played a standard hack'n'slay mmog, did you?
ps encourages anything but leveling, the time it takes to get maxed is way too short for that.
after all you can easily get stats and at least one way combat+armor+magic to max within about 1-2 months with a reasonable time playing per day - honestly, that's nothing...
instead the times it takes to get to a high level are chosen so you can level naturally while RPing or during times you can't find anyone to RP with if you want that.
anyway, there has to be some obstacle that differentiates between someone who just started and someone who already plays a while - at least imho. it'd be really boring if you could max out everything within a single day, wouldn't it?
it'd end up in a world full of "masters" or "heroes" which just wouldn't make sense.
if you don't want to max everything - nobody enforces you. you can enjoy the game with just the base stats you get at the beginning as well if you don't want to be the super-awesome mage/knight/smith/... that always performs best.
regards,
RlyDontKnow
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No, I never played any mmo hack and slash games so my point of reference is limited to my experience with planeshift.
Regarding everyone being maxed... With a community of role players I really don't think that would be an issue since their interest would lie in role playing and not in being all powerful.
currently I am playing another roleplaying game that let's you do just this and it works out quite well.
As for it getting boring if you can max everything in a day that's where the difference is between role playing and leveling. For a leveling game yes, that would suck.
For a role playing game you are getting your fun out of the social interactions that take place... Leveling in this case is a burden that you put up with so that you can shape your character. Once your don't getting your
Character where you want it you can *finally* stop leveling and role play.
Anyhow I suppose everyone has a different idea of what fun is...
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Leveling in this case is a burden that you put up with so that you can shape your character. Once your don't getting your
Character where you want it you can *finally* stop leveling and role play.
Anyhow I suppose everyone has a different idea of what fun is...
and it's impossible to play a character currently in training and just training once in a while?
The way you argue is rather common after all, but I still have to find out why you can't level *and* roleplay - depending on whether your mates or whomever is on or not.
it's not like you'd have to level for ages till you can finally play your role.
if you don't want to pvp/hunt/... you don't have to level at all.
if you do, it's stupid to level all the way up and *then* start playing your role, anyway - at least that's my point of view...
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Well, at the time many players role play their skills in order to be fair. So I would not role play being able to cast flying stones unless I had the stats to back that up. Its not a hard fast rule but its a convention that people follow in an attempt to be fair and to avoid meta-gaming. Likewise one would not role play being able to cook well unless they had the skill to back it up. For players who role play being cooks they literally need to grind/train if they want to actually craft food.
I know that for a while many role players did not bother to train at all. They ended up getting plenty of grief for that.
I suppose you could also argue that part of the problem is the concept of role playing one's stats. It might be easier to just adopt a new convention for fairness or for role players to ignore stats altogether.
Anyway .. that's just my 2 tria...
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If the leveling is much easier I'll be a powerful warrior :P
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Actually, Rigwyn, I think you've given more around two octas, probably circles if you've gone over this before. Predit: I seem to have used some of your currency.
If the leveling system can be edited at will, or nearly so, then what makes it different from a forum? Or a chat program?
The system of leveling exists to make accomplishments and ~effort more tangible, more stable and solid. As pure information, this can only be done by assigning a market, or ~imaginary, value to those accomplishments. This is value is established by requiring the player's time, patience, co-ordination, analysis, and in some cases reaction speed. Players that can see the way to increase their numbers the fastest, and have the most time to do it, prosper...or are trapped even deeper, depending on how you look at it. These qualities selected by the leveling system are only loosely correlated to people that have fun role-playing, most probably because many role-playing games in the past and present have used a leveling system as a meter for their linear, or slightly branching, plot.
Removing the leveling system (or removing all its obstacles; same thing) means removing that market stake, that effect of solidity and entrapment. This effect is what nearly every single massive online game lives by; a lure in the form of "power numbers", and a hook in the time already spent for those numbers.
A leveling system for a role-playing game, if it exists at all, should be based upon qualities you expect role players to have; those that are heavily correlated instead of slightly or negatively correlated. Since you can't put a number on the quality, quantity, or density of roleplaying, you have to find other numbers to work with the players. Or even better, find number the players can work with. A precious few games out there have done this successfully, or even tried at all.
Plane Shift could do so gloriously.
An Omegle chat record, "Bee Quest". (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=42204.msg1321808#msg1321808)
Correlation does not imply causation.
‼Dwarf Fortress‼ (http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/index.html) - The story spawning game; how many numbers do you ever notice? And do you grind them?
Nist Akath (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=19279.0).
Moclem, analysis story by Three Toe (http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/story/tt_moclem.html).
The Fisherdwarf, the Wrestler, and the Chasm Creatures (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=33553.msg522045#msg522045).
One Dwarf Against the World (http://www.bay12games.com/forum/index.php?topic=15572.0).
In fact, here's the entire Hall of Legends (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=41896.0), and the rest of Three Toe's stories (http://www.bay12games.com/dwarves/dev_story.html), if you don't branch links.
Loose Thread -- !E47lP047@Tradus.preeli (http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=57666.0)
▬This turned into a compilation of things I've read and recommend far too quickly; it began as a few examples I thought of while writing.
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Its been taking the middle road because the roleplay mechanics can only be added after the rest of the system is finished. Case in point, introduction system. It sucked and it was deactivated, but only because it could not be managed properly at this time. Second point, factions. Factions are a roleplay mechanic that have recently become practical and useable within the system. Saying "roleplay" is like saying "game", it means different things to each one who hears it. Roleplaying game does not necessarily equate to open-improv acting theater. There is a bit in the introduction to PlaneShift about your character "starting as a peasant" and working their way up. It does not say start as an all powerful wizard, or famous general. It also does not say start as a character with a "reasonable" middle level of skills.
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We're just entertaining a theory, and I'm fairly sure we're working with the same definitions of "game" and "role-playing". But to confirm:
- Role - A character, personality, or niche that is assigned or assumed.
- Role-playing - To take a role.
- Game - A form of entertainment in which the player(s) interact(s) with it.
- Role-playing Game - A game in which any players take the roles of characters.
Agreed?
I guess I did mess with the definition of "leveling", but it was to highlight the variety we want the variety we have.
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I am speaking of game functionality in terms of roleplay mechanics. I am also speaking of it as being moderated by the system through mechanics and rules. It is not a matter of anyone agreeing on simplistic definitions, it is a matter of practical interpretations of the concept of roleplaying that differ between various players and, more importantly, the developers of this game. If it were just a matter of assuming a role, then there should be no reason to have arguments about light tavern roleplaying verses more involved scenarios, for example. It all should be considered roleplaying, but those two states are not considered equally. It also appears that people say roleplaying as though there is some sort of codex of rules for following roleplay in this game. There is not. There have been many discussions by users regarding how to roleplay in game. None of them have been reinforced on the side of the game mechanics up to this time. The only exceptions I can think of are the introductions system, marriage and the factions system. Time will tell, but there has been zero movement to remove any mechanics from the game and it has been debated an awful lot on this forum. As far as I am concerned it is the practical implementation of roleplaying within the game mechanics by the developers that counts, and any other interpretations of the definition of roleplaying are essentially moot.
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{Vivi's Theme from FF IX}
Yes, most of that's correct. But we can agree on this working definition here (that reflects elsewhere) so we can talk to each other efficiently though. You are talking about the definition of "art", which is impossible to pin down. We know this already, but that's not the point. For any video game, there are mechanics that encourage players to do things, take certain attitudes, or feel certain ways; with the power of our minds, we can recognize these game mechanics and what they cause. We can then use learned or imagined mechanics that create the effect we desire.
The players and producers here are in agreement that we desire "role-playing"; this is not art, but a tool and method to create art. Thusly, it can be defined to the satisfaction of everyone who cares. This is probably the definition: "to play a game in which the players take roles of characters within the game's environment for their entertainment or the entertainment of others." The current mechanics of the leveling system is interfering with some people's ability to take roles, and thus is detrimental to some of those people's entertainment and needs to be changed to again accommodate everyone who cares.
Doing so, and fulling what the community desires, requires that mechanics that encourage role-playing are selected and organized far before they are implemented. Saying that we should not talk about them because their implementation is not instant or might never happen (here) is like saying "you shouldn't plan a house because you haven't bought the lumber for it".
Once the mechanics that encourage role-playing have been selected and organized, then those measurement numbers (levels of some kind) can be attached to those mechanics. After testing and tweaking, this will allow role-playing to indirectly be measured by the game, and thus allow accomplishments and ~effort to be more tangible; as the leveling system intended.
I think I got it right for once. Possibly because I've slept sufficiently. Amazing, isn't it?