Make skill building take less time

[Rigwyn]

Let's take a few examples:

Say a noob character starts off with the stats of a master cheff.
- the player might make souflettes and 7 course meals day one... Oh lord, how terrible!
- but wait.. How bad is it really? A new character might start off as an experienced cheff.. Is this so bad ? I don't think so.
- another player might enjoy making a character that is an inexperienced cheff. That's fine too.

As for roleplay standards, what should matter is that the player plays their role consistently. If they are starting as a master cheff then oocly they should be well versed in what foods are in the setting and how to prepare them or else they will look foolish. Alas, another self balancing system!

Apply the same logic to weapons and magic.

Joe noob makes a character with maxed sword and magic skill. Ok. He goes out and owns the ulbers and whatnot. He has his fun and then it gets old. If he is an idiot then he leaves. If he is a roleplayer ir dueler then he sticks around and has some fun.
If he is a roleplayer then he might be some kind of hero or villan, however ultimately he will only be as strong as the next player.should he enter a rp fight
then things like circumstance, choices and number of opponents will contribute greatly to the outcome.

Regarding money, let players have as much as they like.
Joe idiot will give himself 4 billion tria or whatever the max is. Before long he will realize that having that much money is meaningless as it does not make him any more powerful than anyone else.

Those who would exploit the game for money or stats would not bother since they could just be or have what they wish.

But wouldn't that trash the economy?
Yes, but in a positive way. With everything free, money would only be used for rp purposes... But its an rp game so that's fine.

But wait... Then nobody would care about having things? What fun is that?
Again, another self balancing system. Those who just don't get rp would walk away scratching their heads.
Those who wish to focus on making characters and dtory lines would say, ' wow, this is easy and efficient."

But then people won't be all addicted to the game?
Do you really want people to be addicted to clicking their mouse?
Wouldn't it be better if people were addicted to the rp instead?

[Rigwyn]

Sorry for the double post... I just saw your post verden.
No, the developer don't have rp in mind. Half of them don't rp at all.

Its been my observation the the ps team is trying to make a game that caters to both role players and levelers, however taking the middle road is making it less desirable to both parties.

It would be better if ps took one direction or the other and fully embraced it.

If ps is intended to be a leveler's game then by all means run in that direction and toss the role players to the curb.

It would be better if it was a mediocre leveling game or a mediocre role playing game.
Instead its a bad leveling and and a bad role playing game.

[RlyDontKnow]

Sorry for the double post... I just saw your post verden.
No, the developer don't have rp in mind. Half of them don't rp at all.

Its been my observation the the ps team is trying to make a game that caters to both role players and levelers, however taking the middle road is making it less desirable to both parties.

It would be better if ps took one direction or the other and fully embraced it.

If ps is intended to be a leveler's game then by all means run in that direction and toss the role players to the curb.

It would be better if it was a mediocre leveling game or a mediocre role playing game.
Instead its a bad leveling and and a bad role playing game.

you never played a standard hack'n'slay mmog, did you?
ps encourages anything but leveling, the time it takes to get maxed is way too short for that.
after all you can easily get stats and at least one way combat+armor+magic to max within about 1-2 months with a reasonable time playing per day - honestly, that's nothing...

instead the times it takes to get to a high level are chosen so you can level naturally while RPing or during times you can't find anyone to RP with if you want that.

anyway, there has to be some obstacle that differentiates between someone who just started and someone who already plays a while - at least imho. it'd be really boring if you could max out everything within a single day, wouldn't it?
it'd end up in a world full of "masters" or "heroes" which just wouldn't make sense.

if you don't want to max everything - nobody enforces you. you can enjoy the game with just the base stats you get at the beginning as well if you don't want to be the super-awesome mage/knight/smith/... that always performs best.

regards,
RlyDontKnow

[Rigwyn]

No, I never played any mmo hack and slash games so my point of reference is limited to my experience with planeshift.
Regarding everyone being maxed... With a community of role players I really don't think that would be an issue since their interest would lie in role playing and not in being all powerful.
currently I am playing another roleplaying game that let's you do just this and it works out quite well.

As for it getting boring if you can max everything in a day that's where the difference is between role playing and leveling. For a leveling game yes, that would suck.
For a role playing game you are getting your fun out of the social interactions that take place... Leveling in this case is a burden that you put up with so that you can shape your character. Once your don't getting your
Character where you want it you can *finally* stop leveling and role play.

Anyhow I suppose everyone has a different idea of what fun is...
 

[RlyDontKnow]

Leveling in this case is a burden that you put up with so that you can shape your character. Once your don't getting your
Character where you want it you can *finally* stop leveling and role play.

Anyhow I suppose everyone has a different idea of what fun is...

and it's impossible to play a character currently in training and just training once in a while?
The way you argue is rather common after all, but I still have to find out why you can't level *and* roleplay - depending on whether your mates or whomever is on or not.

it's not like you'd have to level for ages till you can finally play your role.
if you don't want to pvp/hunt/... you don't have to level at all.
if you do, it's stupid to level all the way up and *then* start playing your role, anyway - at least that's my point of view...

[Rigwyn]

Well, at the time many players role play their skills in order to be fair. So I would not role play being able to cast flying stones unless I had the stats to back that up. Its not a hard fast rule but its a convention that people follow in an attempt to be fair and to avoid meta-gaming. Likewise one would not role play being able to cook well unless they had the skill to back it up. For players who role play being cooks they literally need to grind/train if they want to actually craft food.

I know that for a while many role players did not bother to train at all. They ended up getting plenty of grief for that.

I suppose you could also argue that part of the problem is the concept of role playing one's stats. It might be easier to just adopt a new convention for fairness or for role players to ignore stats altogether.

Anyway .. that's just my 2 tria...

[Tirion]

If the leveling is much easier I'll be a powerful warrior

[Nivm]

  Actually, Rigwyn, I think you've given more around two octas, probably circles if you've gone over this before. Predit: I seem to have used some of your currency.

 If the leveling system can be edited at will, or nearly so, then what makes it different from a forum? Or a chat program?

 The system of leveling exists to make accomplishments and ~effort more tangible, more stable and solid. As pure information, this can only be done by assigning a market, or ~imaginary, value to those accomplishments. This is value is established by requiring the player's time, patience, co-ordination, analysis, and in some cases reaction speed. Players that can see the way to increase their numbers the fastest, and have the most time to do it, prosper...or are trapped even deeper, depending on how you look at it. These qualities selected by the leveling system are only loosely correlated to people that have fun role-playing, most probably because many role-playing games in the past and present have used a leveling system as a meter for their linear, or slightly branching, plot.
 Removing the leveling system (or removing all its obstacles; same thing) means removing that market stake, that effect of solidity and entrapment. This effect is what nearly every single massive online game lives by; a lure in the form of "power numbers", and a hook in the time already spent for those numbers.

 A leveling system for a role-playing game, if it exists at all, should be based upon qualities you expect role players to have; those that are heavily correlated instead of slightly or negatively correlated. Since you can't put a number on the quality, quantity, or density of roleplaying, you have to find other numbers to work with the players. Or even better, find number the players can work with. A precious few games out there have done this successfully, or even tried at all.
 Plane Shift could do so gloriously.

 An Omegle chat record, "Bee Quest".
 Correlation does not imply causation.
 ‼Dwarf Fortress‼ - The story spawning game; how many numbers do you ever notice? And do you grind them?
  Nist Akath.
  Moclem, analysis story by Three Toe.
  The Fisherdwarf, the Wrestler, and the Chasm Creatures.
  One Dwarf Against the World.
  In fact, here's the entire Hall of Legends, and the rest of Three Toe's stories, if you don't branch links.
 Loose Thread -- !E47lP047@Tradus.preeli
 ▬This turned into a compilation of things I've read and recommend far too quickly; it began as a few examples I thought of while writing.

[verden]

Its been taking the middle road because the roleplay mechanics can only be added after the rest of the system is finished. Case in point, introduction system. It sucked and it was deactivated, but only because it could not be managed properly at this time. Second point, factions. Factions are a roleplay mechanic that have recently become practical and useable within the system. Saying "roleplay" is like saying "game", it means different things to each one who hears it. Roleplaying game does not necessarily equate to open-improv acting theater. There is a bit in the introduction to PlaneShift about your character "starting as a peasant" and working their way up. It does not say start as an all powerful wizard, or famous general. It also does not say start as a character with a "reasonable" middle level of skills.

[Nivm]

 We're just entertaining a theory, and I'm fairly sure we're working with the same definitions of "game" and "role-playing". But to confirm:

• Role - A character, personality, or niche that is assigned or assumed.
• Role-playing - To take a role.
• Game - A form of entertainment in which the player(s) interact(s) with it.
• Role-playing Game - A game in which any players take the roles of characters.

Agreed?
 I guess I did mess with the definition of "leveling", but it was to highlight the variety we want the variety we have.

[verden]

I am speaking of game functionality in terms of roleplay mechanics. I am also speaking of it as being moderated by the system through mechanics and rules. It is not a matter of anyone agreeing on simplistic definitions, it is a matter of practical interpretations of the concept of roleplaying that differ between various players and, more importantly, the developers of this game. If it were just a matter of assuming a role, then there should be no reason to have arguments about light tavern roleplaying verses more involved scenarios, for example. It all should be considered roleplaying, but those two states are not considered equally. It also appears that people say roleplaying as though there is some sort of codex of rules for following roleplay in this game. There is not. There have been many discussions by users regarding how to roleplay in game. None of them have been reinforced on the side of the game mechanics up to this time. The only exceptions I can think of are the introductions system, marriage and the factions system. Time will tell, but there has been zero movement to remove any mechanics from the game and it has been debated an awful lot on this forum. As far as I am concerned it is the practical implementation of roleplaying within the game mechanics by the developers that counts, and any other interpretations of the definition of roleplaying are essentially moot.

[Nivm]

 ^{{Vivi's Theme from FF IX}}
 Yes, most of that's correct. But we can agree on this working definition here (that reflects elsewhere) so we can talk to each other efficiently though. You are talking about the definition of "art", which is impossible to pin down. We know this already, but that's not the point. For any video game, there are mechanics that encourage players to do things, take certain attitudes, or feel certain ways; with the power of our minds, we can recognize these game mechanics and what they cause. We can then use learned or imagined mechanics that create the effect we desire.
 The players and producers here are in agreement that we desire "role-playing"; this is not art, but a tool and method to create art. Thusly, it can be defined to the satisfaction of everyone who cares. This is probably the definition: "to play a game in which the players take roles of characters within the game's environment for their entertainment or the entertainment of others." The current mechanics of the leveling system is interfering with some people's ability to take roles, and thus is detrimental to some of those people's entertainment and needs to be changed to again accommodate everyone who cares.
 Doing so, and fulling what the community desires, requires that mechanics that encourage role-playing are selected and organized far before they are implemented. Saying that we should not talk about them because their implementation is not instant or might never happen (here) is like saying "you shouldn't plan a house because you haven't bought the lumber for it".
 Once the mechanics that encourage role-playing have been selected and organized, then those measurement numbers (levels of some kind) can be attached to those mechanics. After testing and tweaking, this will allow role-playing to indirectly be measured by the game, and thus allow accomplishments and ~effort to be more tangible; as the leveling system intended.

 I think I got it right for once. Possibly because I've slept sufficiently. Amazing, isn't it?