PlaneShift
Gameplay => General Discussion => Topic started by: Suno_Regin on July 09, 2010, 01:03:50 am
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So I was told to get off the RP server because I was training Azure Way beside Levrus while two people later moved in and started roleplaying there. I'm actually happy to see people roleplaying outside of the cities, and having such an iron grip on roleplaying rules, but... I found that to be a little rude. Is it not accepted now to train your skills to match your roleplay?
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Tell them to kiss your ass. The only way to efficiently train magic is to spam it. That's just the way it is. You can role play training your magic skills, but at the end of the day, you cant role play the billion clicks magic requires. Not a fan of magic myself, or power leveling, but if I wanted a certain level I'd have done what you did.
I'm sure you are a much nicer person than I, because I would have used a colorful range of vocabulary to insult them in return.
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Oh you're a bastard.
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yeah... there's snotty roleplay purists. just ignore them.
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I do talk to Levrus and then run behind the shop for the grind. And I don't want to be tempted to go all bloodedIrishman on some poor roleplayer. Better to just ignore them and find a quiet place to meditate upon matters magical.
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Don't worry; if they themselves are being like that; tell THEM to get off the RP server.
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There seems to be a rash of that going on lately.
If you were outside practicing it shouldn't have been an issue for them. Inside I can understand as it may interfere with game play for some people. After all what sense is there to have mechanics for a game if no one uses them. If you were outside and they came later, they could have went a little further and not have been bothered. Still their being that rude is not exceptable. If you were inside the building they could have merely asked. I have seen several corrections lately by players that really shouldn't be correcting anyone else. If they told you that in main that only stresses my point. There are more mature approaches that could have been used in the situation. If they had such an iron grip on the rules they would have used one. If it had to do with sound then maybe they should disable the sound before they RP, which is probably what the issue is about. That is an individual choice thing, and in that case they have only themselves to blame for the inconvenience.
By the way welcome back
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Siding with Suno on this, the others should be ashamed of themselves, especially considering that your training doesn't spam the chat channel or anything. Though it can lower framerate, but if it was affecting me that bad I would merely have asked you to move for the duration of my RP, politely, in a tell.
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So I was told to get off the RP server because I was training Azure Way beside Levrus while two people later moved in and started roleplaying there. I'm actually happy to see people roleplaying outside of the cities, and having such an iron grip on roleplaying rules, but... I found that to be a little rude. Is it not accepted now to train your skills to match your roleplay?
They interfered OOCly into your PS atmosphere, breaking the settings and being rude to a player instead of to a character.
They should be banned from the Internet.
Forever.
Seriously.
(almost.)
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...their being that rude is not exceptable. ...
Yeah, I agree. They were just being punks about it. as far as I've seen so far, it's usually not good RPers complaining the loudest. These just seem to think that being an RPer means telling people off for RP they don't like. Try not to worry about it too much. ;)
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First off, practicing magic right next to levrus is NOT PLing, you practice next to Levrus because he teaches you [RP speaking]. If they were RPing in the house, while you were training with Levrus, it shouldn't be a problem, because RP-ly you are just training, while they do whatever. If they don't like the magic and stuff and have problems OOC THEY should move, ssince IG you are training with Levrus. And PLing is part of RP too, they have no right to tell you to go to EZPC just because you train. I train a lot also. If i were you i would have been outraged, If they asked my character to move, i would tell them to piss of.. And maybe threaten them a little ;D But if they told me OOC i would have just ignored them.
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Thats a good point Maisent. Who will IG/RP wise buy some training and then (since it is winter in PS) go outside and train in the cold? Its like telling someone to go to university outside in winter!
Adding to the Get off the Roleplay Server. I am finding numerous guilds OOCly asking noobs to join their OOC guild in my mind I have a list of OOC guilds that is for me to know since it is not in my head. Also I am begining to find one very good RP guild one of the largest IG getting rather OOC about who they let in, unacceptable and should no longer 1) Have a guild house 2) be on 'the Roleplay Server', even if their leader or other members RP, PLing within a guild must be sorted out as much as possible!
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There is a difference between these two things:
1) She's training herself in crystal way so that one day she can use many different spells to deal with many different ailments, as a doctor.
2) My character is going to train all the ways in magic to the max because he has always had a love for training. He can heal anybody, and smite a vilenaught in one meteor. He is a great fighter, having done it all his life he is able to handle any weapon and use it to the best of its potential. Of course, my character has also had a great deal of experience with crafting so he can make the best quality of weapons. Yes, my character is a strong, strong, strong man who can challenge anybody and anything.
I hope you can see the difference. ;)
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LOL! .. this is the last thing I would expect to see in ps....
I wasn't there so I don't know what transpired .. but as a rule of thumb its usually good to try and settle things in a civil matter before saying something like "get off the rp server".
Hearing that people give a crap about rp is encouraging at least..
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@Geoni: Suno's already made it clear he's a RPer, not a PLer. Remember PS is designed for a group I'd call the "RPPLers", that is, those that power level to match their roleplay.
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Personally, one of the things that bothers me the most about PS is training spam. I think you ought to get no practice from futile actions such as healing wounds that do not exist. There has to be a better way than the way it is currently.
From a role play aspect I would think that Talad would object to the way people use his precious gift of glyphs. Of course they never wear out and are fairly routine to acquire so it is easy to take them for granted. Perhaps they ought to wear out like everything else. Talad may be a good but to me he is something of a bumbler (poor Laanx) so it would make sense that glyphs would be impermanent.
If it had been me seeing you I might have tried to say something ambiguously ic/ooc but would not have expected you to change and left you to your foolishness after a bit.
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I actually make it a habit not to roleplay while I powerlevel, simply because the process for powerleveling is very bland. It's like when people stand still and camp the same mob spawn for hours on end and somehow roleplay the entire thing out. I simply can't do that. Maybe this is where the disconnect is, but I did make it clear that I was OOC while I was training, simply because I don't really like going through "apprentice phases" in my characters (I don't want my old character to still be training himself in magic ICly when he's acquired this knowledge during his youth, for example). There are some things that I can roleplay depending on the character, but...
1. I didn't know anyone used the magic shop for roleplay in this new generation
2. I was "there first" and at low levels it's pretty quick leveling to keep going and asking for more training, therefore the roleplay didn't have to formulate itself inside of the main building
3. It's the roleplay server, but I don't have to be IC 100% of the time if I feel the situation doesn't match my character, and I use brackets to represent this
4. It seemed like a rather personal conversation that they were having in front of both Levrus and myself
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Yes, I have always thought of the training as being symbolically representative of the time training, but not a literal simulation of it. And at the lower levels it is impractical to run around a lot. But sometime between maybe 10-20 I usually end up wanting to look at something else other than the inside of the magic shop.
And actually if we extend the concept that quests are OOC, since they have never been recommended to incorporate into roleplay, it would follow that training is OOC as well. Of course, the concept of getting something from or bringing something to an NPC is often brought up in RP... so there is this gray area.
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Yes, I have always thought of the training as being symbolically representative of the time training, but not a literal simulation of it. And at the lower levels it is impractical to run around a lot. But sometime between maybe 10-20 I usually end up wanting to look at something else other than the inside of the magic shop.
And actually if we extend the concept that quests are OOC, since they have never been recommended to incorporate into roleplay, it would follow that training is OOC as well. Of course, the concept of getting something from or bringing something to an NPC is often brought up in RP... so there is this gray area.
Depends on the individuality of the quest. If you specifically are asked to do something that no one else "should be", then it should -never- be brought up in roleplay. Yes, when I'm questing, I also try to stay mostly OOC. If the quest is something as simple as "Harnquist needs an apple", then he's probably asked many people to feed him in the past, as he's trying to run a business and not take too many breaks, so you can probably roleplay that you've done it when someone else has too.
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Currently, I would only consider quest factions to be somewhat individual. Such as the two ways to get winch access. I've stuck with the no roleplaying quests always, except when speaking to someone who is trying to find quest information... then it becomes practical to RP. Thats just IMHO.
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Right next to Levrus is not the best place to train in my opinion. I personally would also say somewhere outside (not because it's outside, but because one doesn't see the "magic spamming") seems to be better for me, too. But at least somewhere in the house where it's more convincing than right next to Levrus, who possibly wants to talk to other customers in peace - for example upstairs that looks like a small library.
Not only because of rp, also because magic is still making some players lag to unplayability of the game.
That saying get off the rp server was rude is pretty much out of question[sp?], so will I not commenting it further.
Sen
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if you lag you'll lag on a radius of 100mt so the argument doesn't really stand
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Most of the people quick to say something like this are not all that "great" at RPing, they are just being pains. Also, I have noticed a trend towards having RPs that should be more private all out in the open. I know the world is pretty empty most of the time but still...
I can see the repetition of spells to an extent as practice makes perfect but it probably does get out of hand after awhile. If you RP trying to train it will make it take longer but I can easily see how to RP it around others. Maybe not each and every time yo cast the spell, but periodically as you are training. Maybe do it by time passed instead of by clicks.
My biggest problem is that people casting next to me makes my graphics go all funky but aside from that I just ignore it most of the time.
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I've never really been bothered by people spamming spells to train.. to me its just somebody practicing .. in their case, they are practicing near their trainer. That does not sound all that unreasonable. Actually, it makes sense.
Not knowing what transpired, I would say as long as the training is not disruptive and does not break the realism it should be fine.
Using that flame-on spell or defensive wind inside the shop (especially if your right on top of Lervus and two other characters) would look silly as it would cause poor levrus' papers to blow about and his home and eyebrows to burn to cinders xD. Come on folks .. the old geezer is already mad as a hatter...
But it should be fine just outside the door.
I agree about mixing rp and leveling .. thats just silly..
player2 spots player1 and shouts "Beware!"
player1: Hi there. Beware of what ?
player2 remains still with a sword in each hand. He stares into the distance
player1: So eh .. whats up with the stance? Battling wind today?
player2: I'm waiting
player1: for what ?
player2: Im waiting for the briggand to appear and attack us!
player1: Huh. Your not making any sense?
* Briggand spawns *
* player2 immediately one-shots the briggand *
player2: Arg .. Another briggand tried to attack me! did you see that?
player2: I'm gonna need bigger pockets to hold all these pies, potions and swords!
player1: [ Get off the RP server you noob ! ]
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Thought I'd throw in another opinion :P
I like to attempt to handle problems in character as a first choice.
In this situation, if the magic being practiced bothered me, I would have no problem going to the character and simply request that they go elsewhere to practice or refrain from it temporarily.
My char. would be nice about it, but for some other not so nice characters, they might take their rage out IC rather than in a nasty tell. Who knows, resolving the situation in character might even lead to unexpected fun.
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i have a feeling these players brought it up OOCly because they're the godmodish sort who like to have planned uninterfereable (i know it's not a word) roleplays. they're the kind who have "private" roleplays in front of lady peckerly. frankly, they piss me off. those players are selfish and need to find another game if they wish to be buttfaces. lol
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Get used to it Suno, nobody remembers oldbies anymore; oldbies are now the noobs that used to piss you off back then. XD
At least that's what they call themselves. ;)
Admittedly, it's pretty annoying when you're RPing and somebody is spamming magic right next to you, but if you see that beforehand it makes you a fool to stand next to that player.
I used to train above Levrus, where Sen proposed, just put my character facing one of the books and spammed the hell of out of her magic spells there.
That worked for me, and I had sound turned off so as long as I couldn't see the spamming it was no bother at all when others did that.
Btw, you haven't been in our forums for a long time, I missed Roboki for a while. :p
Feel free to give them some life when you have to rant, I love rants.
Oh... and go to EZPC you nub. >:(
Just guessing who this is, I'll be sure to drop by. :P
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I have absolutely nooooo idea who Pepito is. ::)
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Get used to it Suno
Suno, you are a noob: Off that RP Server with you, let truthful RPers have their chess tournaments!
Pepito, you are the most big time noob anyway!>=(
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/me wants a cheese fondue
(why does everyone talk about food the day I ate (almost) nothing?)
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You prefer paella with calamares? (lol sorry, poor joke;))
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So I was told to get off the RP server because I was training Azure Way beside Levrus while two people later moved in and started roleplaying there. I'm actually happy to see people roleplaying outside of the cities, and having such an iron grip on roleplaying rules, but... I found that to be a little rude. Is it not accepted now to train your skills to match your roleplay?
next time say "SHAZAAM!" every five seconds, that'll show 'em ;D
(some people just think they own this place)
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So I was told to get off the RP server because I was training Azure Way beside Levrus while two people later moved in and started roleplaying there. I'm actually happy to see people roleplaying outside of the cities, and having such an iron grip on roleplaying rules, but... I found that to be a little rude. Is it not accepted now to train your skills to match your roleplay?
next time say "SHAZAAM!" every five seconds, that'll show 'em ;D
(some people just think they own this place)
tbh you should just gtfo the RP server.
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Woooooooo Xoel and Pepito :love:
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Just a prospect remember -.-
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Behave guys, nobody tells anybody to gtfo, only Neko has the license to say gtfo on these forums ;)
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Just a prospect remember -.-
Ok, fixed.
(http://www.lothere.com/assets/smileys/bonus/carebear.png)
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wow! I do?
hmm
:devil:
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Hey Pepito, you still haven't explained why you begged and pleaded to have your forum account deleted, then you just made more. Really, why?
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I don't appreciate men calling me handsome tbh :P
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And actually if we extend the concept that quests are OOC, since they have never been recommended to incorporate into roleplay, it would follow that training is OOC as well. Of course, the concept of getting something from or bringing something to an NPC is often brought up in RP... so there is this gray area.
From my System log, Tue 03-Aug-2010
>Remember to be consistent to your character even when doing quests. The choices you make will have consequences in later content.
That's what the RP server kept telling me for months. I tried my best for more than half a year, but I must admit I gave it up by now, as well as the idea of doing quests in a honest way, without using OOC info, tips and riddle answers given by other players, spoilers and such. The only thing I'm still trying to avoid is doing those quests which my character would absolutely, most certainly, under any circumstances, never do, because I just cannot play a character I myself don't believe in, it makes the whole game pointless.
I suppose the whole 'quests are OOC' standpoint has one simple reason behind it: goodies. I maybe would have called the players who do it that way, greedy or poor RPers if not for the game design making some quests unavoidable for any other characters but those of the pure storyteller type. No Winch, no training. No glyphs, no magic. No crafting books, no craft. Some things can be bought for a reasonable price, some cannot and one can't buy training access into the Winch at all.
Magic and combat training is absolutely un-roleplayable due to the insanely huge amount of identical actions that need to be performed in order to gain any decent level in anything. Unless someone is a bot, they simply cannot perform any corresponding, or even proportional, amount of identical RP actions. The only way to train magic and combat is to abuse the same buttons repeatedly for a very long time, thinking about what you are doing as little as possible, or else it can drive you crazy. RP cannot be abused this way without it turning into yet another kind of flood, one also cannot RP without thinking about it somewhat.
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Hear her! Hear her! \\o//
I despise "me too" posts, but Sashia has said what I've been thinking (four months in my case) so well that I must break my own rule. I tried to complete some quests "in character" and found the results and responses were exactly backward from what made sense ("the Gemming" being the example that comes to mind).
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Haha. Suno, you're around for a while. You should know there are idiots everywhere.
You've done your part, but you should be complaining to the ones meant to "help promote this concept":
it's the players responsibility to create the community and promote RP. its the dev's job to create the engine that allows the player base to create the community. the GM team exists to help promote this concept. if there are acts going on in game as described in this thread, then its the responsibility of the player base to notify the correct personnel of these acts.
if the player base sees these acts go on in game, and does not report them, then they have only themselves to blame for the way the game's community evolves.
The developers sure did create the spammy training and the have-to-be-ignored-in-roleplay quests and you're just promoting roleplay as that system allows. The GM's should favour you and try to mend your hurt feelings.
EDIT: Less words, so not to waste so much of your time.
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The developers sure did create the spammy training and the have-to-be-ignored-in-roleplay quests and you're just promoting roleplay as that system allows. The GM's should favour you and try to mend your hurt feelings.
It seems to me this subject is a two way street.
Most, what others may see as my character grinding, is done at the moment with Rogues. In RP terms my character has contracts to supply the Den and Stonehead with wine. She does her business out of Oja and tries to at least move from Rogue to Rogue and not stand there waiting for them to respawn. The RP logic is that she is not a Rogue/Bandit herself and so must continually prove herself in the eyes of Kistol. Other Rogues are probably trying to push in on her business or are trying to rob her product. This could be played out smoother on a table rpg with a GM and it may seem a stretch to some on PS; yet it gives me, the player, an RP reason for the training; as the wine is delivered via RP in the end.
My character has only done a few quests when asked to do so with her newly joined Guild. They have been mostly related to quests surrounding Talad which also seems in RP terms; as the guild is the Brotherhood of Talad.
Perhaps it is the players who are drawing one sided lines here. Just because a quest is available does not mean that it needs be done. Just because mounts are available in the winch does not mean that the character has to have one; unless it is achieved through RP terms.
It just seems to me the finger pointing on the thread is a little one way. Just coming across a daughter of dox racking in the sewers seemed to reinforce that feeling.
- Nova
[Edit - spelling]
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I wasn't pointing fingers, I was stating things. I'm not sad with how the game works.
Perhaps it is the players who are drawing one sided lines here. Just because a quest is available does not mean that it needs be done. Just because mounts are available in the winch does not mean that the character has to have one; unless it is achieved through RP terms.
Totally right. However the people that chose to do these quests will end up helping a dude 10000 times with his poem, etc. It's incoherent, hence why I mentioned it couldn't be included in your roleplay. But that's not a problem either. These quests allow people to explore Yliakum and stuff, they are certainly better than nothing.
And I see little wrong with grinding. If you want a fighter character, you should have to fight with it, makes sense. If it spams other people, it's just not the players fault.
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However the people that chose to do these quests will end up helping a dude 10000 times with his poem, etc. It's incoherent, hence why I mentioned it couldn't be included in your roleplay.
Do you mean to say that one can do a quest more than once?!?
That should be as easy as pie to fix considering characters carry a record of the quests they have already done!
- Nova
Venorel boggles at the concept
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However the people that chose to do these quests will end up helping a dude 10000 times with his poem, etc. It's incoherent, hence why I mentioned it couldn't be included in your roleplay.
Do you mean to say that one can do a quest more than once?!?
That should be as easy as pie to fix considering characters carry a record of the quests they have already done!
- Nova
Venorel boggles at the concept
He's saying that if you rescue a damsel in distress and kill the person who kidnapped her, then 10,000 other people have also helped that same person and killed that same person, therefore, you can't roleplay it because while in the quest context you did it yourself, other people are going to say they did it, and it would be a bit silly to say that 30-some people have all done this before.
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Get off the Roleplay Server
(http://farm1.static.flickr.com/22/37329298_c85fc69658.jpg)
Darn kids.
/me shakes fist
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And yes - most quests are repeatable, after a more or less long time. You may need to discard the quest after completing it to repeat it. If you can't discard it, it was one of the few you can't repeat, because they were so extremely important key decisions, like e.g. Winch quarter or Blackflame temple access etc.
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I tried to complete some quests "in character" and found the results and responses were exactly backward from what made sense
That too, and thanks for support, Sluuph! :flowers:
But my ultimate problem with quests, so far, is as follows: you need a book, but the quest that yields such a book is either OOC for your char or contains another idiotic riddle which can be only solved by asking someone who happens to know the right answer. Putting it straight, either you have to switch to OOC, or cheat, or both. Or if you are too honest or too proud for that, say goodbye to whatever you needed that book for (cooking, crafting and such), be happy watching others who don't give heck about RP and have no such problems.
A quick example: my Neeli char needs a Sleep glyph. Right now it's very hard to buy one, and I only can get it from questing if I 1)godmod her into OOC for days, 2)do a long sequence of quests which is a ultimate bore because I already did it all before and am a tad disinterested, 3)I suppose one of the quests is still bugged like hell.
Another problem - and I still have no slightest idea why the Devs want it that way - is that to keep your char consistent, you need it to engage in certain activities, be it craft, or combat, or magic, or something else. But: you cannot mech-perform the operations without having certain items. But: you cannot get some of the items unless through questing. But: questlines don't care heck about your char and its alignments. And: even if all them 'buts' (pun intended) are somehow worked out, you still have no slightest idea which quest gives what, and info like that simply can not be gained IC'ly.
Frankly, to me, it still looks like the biggest flaw of Planeshift ever. It doesn't even look like beta issue, more like a severe mental disorder of the whole world. And it affects my game experience greatly.
Just because mounts are available in the winch does not mean that the character has to have one; unless it is achieved through RP terms.
Ven, absolutely. That's why my Sashia char has no mounts, nor do I plan to ever get her one. She's not about animals and empathy, and the only animal she'd like to have very much, is a goujah, to carry ore. But with your attitude - I started with a similar one - you will discover very soon that in Planeshift it just doesn't work. Either you switch in the storytelling mode, or you will have to forfeit your character's IC consistency in order to stay on par with others and engage in certain mech-related activities which at times are required to advance your IC story.
That DOX character you've seen 'racking' in the sewer was, probably, not that happy with it herself. But we need PP, don't we? And one gets none by healing, or growing plants, or raising rivnaks, or praying, or whatever is good for them scary DOX thingies :P
Honest, I still can't understand why one cannot just get some items (like books and glyphs) from an NPC for a huge sum of tria. Just by patience and hard work. I know quests need more testing, but do the Devs really think PS quests are such a bore that no one would do them if not pressed hard into it? Makes me wonder.
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Currently the only thing you can decide, as far as doing quests and training is concerned, is whether your character wants to have skill X, Y or both.
At least for now you can't expect that every quest you do is possible to be roleplayed, because let's face it: most aren't. Use quests to get acquainted with Yliakum and try to feel that's enough. If you're acquainted enough, just suck it some more. Or do like I do: get a character that doesn't rely on those things.
The developers are aware of these things for years now. Maybe they'll change it, maybe they won't. For now we should just make do.
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The reason why I seem to be unable to understand many complaints must be that I prefer to play a game the way I enjoy it. And if it turns out to become "serious work", it is not a game anymore, not fun anymore.
Esanor is a mute dwarf. If I would play the OOC quests just as serious as all my IC roleplays, I would not be able to do any quests, because NPCs would not be able to understand sign language or charade. Therefore I split my activities: I try to be rather consistent in my IC behaviour in main -- but I still do quests to obtain rewards, and I don't play mute in the (mainly OOC) Guild chat either.
You all are hopefully able to tell apart your character from your person. Just do that once again between IC main chat on one hand, and OOC quests and buddy talk on the other.
Do not only preach tolerance and comprimises to others. Live it for yourself too.
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Yup, that's what people should do.
You make it sound as if you are required to have game inconsistency in order to make it not serious though.
I think coherency only helps. But perfection is not a requirement, it's just a distinctive trait.
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That was surely not my intention. But never forget: This game developed over so many years already; many things were useful when the game was much younger, but now that the game grows up, several details in it become less useful and appear as if they should have been made completely different from the beginning ... not remembering the beginning circumstances, though.
That's what makes many smart-asses appear annoying - who discover a long grown project late and "know everything better" how it should have been started instead. Of course, looking from the end, the beginning often looks wrong. But who could have seen the end from the beginning already and avoided mistakes before they were made, when so many details can only be discovered as mistakes after they have been tried, at least?
Murphy's laws about project management are recursive (trying to predict mistakes creates more mistakes).
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But who could have seen the end from the beginning already and avoided mistakes before they were made, when so many details can only be discovered as mistakes after they have been tried, at least?
Game Design team. Or in other words the guys who design game in pre-production stage and make sure it all goes according to the plan (which typically happens to be a huge document) during the production stage.
Also, Murphy's laws are good for folks who believe in "why bother trying to do something right if it'll go wrong anyway"
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Software isn't that simple. A system like PS is created from many smaller systems, all which have their own dependencies and caveats, particularities and failings. An overall plan of Game Design sounds nice, but it never works out like that.
There will be too many things changing between conception and implementation. Sometimes the programmers don't want to play nice with the designers or the executives. Or vice-versa. Sometimes the executives want to push their myths about how production is done, without ever really knowing anything about how that production is accomplished. Many times people design things without understanding the systems that they are including in their design.
Many times people simply assume that things work a certain way during the design of the production flow, only to have someone else later figure out that they were completely and totally wrong, and not only did they pay someone a lot of money for those assumptions, but that will now impact the budget for development on another area of the project.
I know it will probably horrify a lot of people to hear it, but PlaneShift as a project is very close in politics, management, and implementation to many live commercial projects that you would recognize. Things are just much slower over here, the rest of it is pretty damn similar.
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"These days we plan a lot more because it costs a lot more. So if I start out going, "oh we want a character that's a giant pterodactyl," then later I say, "no, let's make it a T-Rex." Then thousands of dollars have just gone out the window. You have to be careful when you change direction in this day and age. Doing more planning is the most significant difference in design methodology between being young, and now having a larger team and more experience."
-- Cliff Bleszinski
"Good writing skills. When not actually arguing and throwing feces at each other through our cage bars, a large portion of a game designer's job is design documentation or writing 5,000 e-mails. That means you need good technical writing skills and an ability to organize your thoughts. You need to be able to pass a document off to audio, QA, marketing, the programming staff, and an artist, and they should be able to find out whatever information they need just by looking at the document."
-- Chris Avellone
It seems all successfull game designers feel it is exceptionally important to be able to plan ahead and communicate with other developers. If the game designers fail at these tasks, the game is very likely to lose its investors or fail to attract players. Not everyone is able to create a document and make sure the development follows it as closely as possible. But that's what makes the difference. Some designers make their names, others don't.
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Do more planning if you like, but if the subsystems change due to discovered caveats, the entire planning document can go out the window in an instance. Things are simple when being treated hypothetically. They change in the real world, suddenly and often without any warning due to constraints on a project that often have nothing to do with design requirements. And projects flop and burn because of it.
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"These days we plan a lot more because it costs a lot more. So if I start out going, "oh we want a character that's a giant pterodactyl," then later I say, "no, let's make it a T-Rex." Then thousands of dollars have just gone out the window. You have to be careful when you change direction in this day and age. Doing more planning is the most significant difference in design methodology between being young, and now having a larger team and more experience."
-- Cliff Bleszinski
"Good writing skills. When not actually arguing and throwing feces at each other through our cage bars, a large portion of a game designer's job is design documentation or writing 5,000 e-mails. That means you need good technical writing skills and an ability to organize your thoughts. You need to be able to pass a document off to audio, QA, marketing, the programming staff, and an artist, and they should be able to find out whatever information they need just by looking at the document."
-- Chris Avellone
It seems all successfull game designers feel it is exceptionally important to be able to plan ahead and communicate with other developers. If the game designers fail at these tasks, the game is very likely to lose its investors or fail to attract players. Not everyone is able to create a document and make sure the development follows it as closely as possible. But that's what makes the difference. Some designers make their names, others don't.
Go read the Agile Manifesto Draklar. Waterfall development techniques, as your quotes refer to, have been rendered practically obsolete in this fast-changing day and age. The main problem is that PS is still organized as if it were a waterfall-based system...which makes little sense for a project of this scope with an all-volunteer staff.
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Agile Manifesto
Hippie Hooey.
Regimented micromanagement for the win! ;D
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I'd also like to add my off-topic post:
Shadowgate is a 1987 "point-and-click" adventure video game originally for the Mac and is the most popular in the MacVenture series. It was also released in 1989 for the Nintendo Entertainment System, where it garnered mild success. The game is named for its setting, Castle Shadowgate, residence of the evil Warlock Lord. The player, as the "last of a great line of hero-kings" is charged with the task of saving the world by defeating the Warlock Lord, who is attempting to summon up the demon Behemoth out of Hell.
The player must solve a series of puzzles throughout the castle in order to proceed to the Warlock Lord's chamber. Due to the castle's perilous nature, at least one lit torch must be in the player's possession at all times; if the torch is extinguished, the player soon stumbles, breaking his neck, and he or she must then continue from a saved game (or the area in which they died, in game console versions). Since there is only a finite number of torches to be found throughout the game, this effectively acts as a time limit to proceedings. Various items that can be acquired include sword, sling shot and other ancient weapons; though these weapons can not actually be used as striking weapons, they can be clicked on at the appropriate time to deliver a fatal blow to specific enemies
The game is notorious for its many opportunities of death, including being burned by a dragon's breath, attacked by a cyclops, sucked into outer space through a broken mirror, dissolved by acidic slime, mauled by a wolf-woman, eaten by sharks, and suicide. In fact, virtually any action taken by the player which is not the correct solution to a puzzle will result in a fatality. These deaths were often graphically described in the game's text (along with often sardonic and humorous comments), even in the NES version (in spite of Nintendo's policy of censorship at the time). Many of the game's puzzles rely on a system of trial and error, the problem of which is overcome by the ability to save the game state (as in most adventure games). Subtle hints can be found in books and the descriptive game texts. In the NES version, these are replaced by an outright hint feature which gives vague clues about what is noteworthy in any given room in the castle. The further the player progresses, however, the more useless this feature becomes, deteriorating into nothing but encouraging messages by the game's end. The NES version of Shadowgate also carries the distinction of being one of the few NES games to be available in a Swedish language version.
At the end of the game, the Warlock Lord has succeeded in opening the gates of Hell and summoning up the Behemoth. But with a holy artifact called the Staff of Ages, the player is able to mortally wound the demon; as it dies, the Behemoth drags the Warlock Lord with him into Hell. The player returns victorious to his kingdom, where he is betrothed to the king's daughter and entitled High Lord of the Westland.
You should try it it's a very good game!
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Fortunately no "concurring project". ;)
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It's obvious that when we have 10000 quests already, with plenty of utility and with influence on training etc, we can't expect the game to suddenly erase everything and replace it with roleplaying-compliant material.
But I can't see how we would generate more problems with the creation and progressive modification of quests that are roleplay-compliant. Also, it's not a matter of informatics... It's a matter of changing words. Instead of helping the Kran with the same poem every-time, make it look like he uses every character he finds to create new poems to publish (even though the poem base is always the same, it's just less to ignore).
Instead of having the same item being stolen 10000 times, the NPC could make it seem like he is stolen in a regular basis and he needs the helps of adventurers to retrieve these things back since the guards are lazy. Switch <family heirloom> with <crate of crafteable goods>, make Zak sound like he is used to seeing adventurers asking him things.
This is hardly required. However it would help a whole lot with game immersion and furnishing player-oriented roleplay with the experiences acquired through quests.
Creative players already do this... But I think even those would appreciate these additional immersion measures. Still, there might be other more important priorities for the settings' team.