I voted for graphics.Having grass on lawn is already implemented (regarding technology and art), but has been deactivated. Was available on the Laanx Temple green and around Harnquist's forge but caused a lot more lag. Was avaialble in the East Passage too. Xordan once developed a massive speedup, but I am not certain if it was ever implemented in that way.
Grass would be nice to be implemented, changes in the character models so that they can wear cloths :)
The PlaneShift project has always prided itself on being free and open source, open for anyone to contribute to. The reality is, however, that many players don’t really believe that it is. For a portion of the playerbase, the project seems closed to a large extent and not very open to community contributions.So, what about this? You think the opinion of the playerbase will change by introducing even one more step between them and the PS team? Maybe I got the intentions wrong...but for me it sounded as if the Skunkwork team wanted to improve the communication between the players and the PS team...not only collect ideas and hand them over. What about some out-of-the-box thinking and suggesting some real changes to the PS team in order to make the development appear more open. What about suggestions allowing players to submit stuff they did for PS more easily? What about coming up with ideas how to make the whole developing process of PS more transparent and giving players a voice in it? For example it's really nice to see that weltall and RlyDontKnow take themselves more time lately and actually explain why some suggestions can't be done or won't be included very soon. But both can only talk about coding issues...every department of PS could do much more PR work like this. And sure...I hear it already...there isn't enough time and manpower for this. Great..and you think a lot more people will apply to the PS team with the current players attitude towards the team? There is really so much more that the Skunkwork team could do than just collecting ideas and hoping that one day the devs will look into them.
Mechanics is the most important, in my opinion. I can't enjoy new art, settings, whatever, if the client doesn't. Freaking. Work. As for balance and skills and all that jazz, still important, but not as much as making sure people can actually run PlaneShift without having to jump through hoops to get the client fired up and then put up with incessant crashes. I'll admit, it's not nearly as bad as it used to be on my computer, but every time I see there's a new update, I still wonder if I'll be able to get in after it's done.that won't be fixed with skunkwork or any complain get to code and fix it. we can't reproduce these problems so we can't fix them. Most of the crashes doesn't even come from ps code but from cs code only on some particular hw configurations.
Mechanics is the most important, in my opinion. I can't enjoy new art, settings, whatever, if the client doesn't. Freaking. Work. As for balance and skills and all that jazz, still important, but not as much as making sure people can actually run PlaneShift without having to jump through hoops to get the client fired up and then put up with incessant crashes. I'll admit, it's not nearly as bad as it used to be on my computer, but every time I see there's a new update, I still wonder if I'll be able to get in after it's done./me agrees to this and wishes he could actually do something about it without just whining
I think it would be far more beneficial to tackle playability snarls than the superficial stuff like graphics. Things like the insanely complicated and troublesome cooking process, which oddly enough got tweaked into the mess it's in rather than starting that way. However, part of that problem is that it got changed by people that don't actually use the mechanics for it. It might look better in code but it is so not worth it in terms of cooking anything efficiently. Or coming up with plans like preventing players from equipping weapons in a city to drive home the point that the guards exert influence whether a GM is actively playing them or not, or refining Dakkrus curse to nail repeat offenders rather than nail everybody when it could have been a /die to unstick when a GM wasn't around.maybe because i don't swim in the sky?
@Weltall, chances are that the SkunkWorks group won't suggest anything that can be simply fixed by bringing up the issue. The whole point is just identifying problem areas if I understand right. Very few things will be conceptual problems that a committee can come together to rethink. And on the hardware issue, PS is in no position to expect people to have hardware like is required for other games. It doesn't remotely have the content necessary to justify straining people's computers... and to be honest, PS runs worse on less than required hardware than a lot of other more complicated MMOs. The problem is that PS needs to be streamlined and it doesn't have the people to do it.
However, this attitude is the kind of stuff that made me quite trying to get a group to find solutions to problems. It's not my group wasn't working. They did great, but what's the point if the few devs that are still around are mostly coders which have the "no!" mentality (Although I will give RlyDontKNow credit for doing better about that these days). It's not that you expect a magic wand to materialize and fix stuff but at least if a problem is identified and accepted it might be one day be fixed. But turning your head and acting like there is no possible solution is part of what keep PS running in circles.
It's not that you expect a magic wand to materialize and fix stuff but at least if a problem is identified and accepted it might be one day be fixed. But turning your head and acting like there is no possible solution is part of what keep PS running in circles.
... it's ignored...
I rest my case... This Eliseth is why I have my doubts. Not because it is a bad idea to get people together but because regardless of how hard you work, anything that you say, well...let me fix your quote... it's ignored...
... it's ignored by who has the problem...
That works both ways. There is a reason betas are often closed and I wouldn't even say PS is that far along. Beta would imply you are somewhat close to ver. 1.00... You can't hide behind "PS is a beta" when someone points out problems then turn around expect everybody to be a top notch beta testers that can tweak the game.
If people with minimum computer knowledge are not the best testers then this should not be open to the public yet, but since it is there needs to be more accommodation for the fact that most of the people playing the game are average people with average knowledge. Most people playing the game have to learn how to tweak it to get it to work. Very few come in with that knowledge, but even in beta, an open to the pubic game should be a little better about needing to be tweaked. However, that would be expecting PS to follow established patterns for game development...
Ok, I think both sides have made their points. Please let's try staying on topic.
I really don't want to have to lock or cut my own thread :sweatdrop:
A young female Stonehammer (http://planeshift.ezpcusa.com/pswiki/index.php?title=Stonebreaker) ...
Hey what is the "internet".
I propose, as guiding thought and principle:
To make Planeshift a place where storytellers want to live.
- get rid of the ABC license or at least
- allow self-compiled clients on the official servers
- come up with some rules about modified clients and what modifications would be acceptable for the official servers. (Everything allowing cheating obviously not, also not something that might endanger the stability of the server...but people including copy and paste support or a spellchecker in the client should be allowed to try out...in general don't discourage people from adding new features to PS but rather encourage them)
Quote- allow self-compiled clients on the official servers
That is already possible up to a certain point. You can compile your own client and copy the artwork binaries from the main client. I did that a while back when I always got stuck on the Ojaveda road with the official client.
You should never test hacks on an official server. Download the CVS version of the PlaneShift server and test your hacks or mods locally, on your private server. Then report to us your findings, you will be rewarded if you find any good hack and a solution to it.
The stated rule is pretty clear: Only the packaged distro client is to be used on Laanx / EZ, period. That said, there are some exceptions that have been permitted from time to time, for example:
1) Player modified UI windows, such as inventory and the like, which do -not- alter the functionality, but merely rearranges the presentation, have generally been allowed. Such mods aren't supported of course, so if a mod doesn't function properly, but the packaged UI does, you're on your own, and if we update the client in such a way that breaks your mod, again you're on your own.
2) For playability or bug-tracing reasons, when we needed a wider range of test cases beyond that which we could do within the team, we may in specific cases suggest certain advance builds be tried by player-testers to help us isolalte and fix the issue. There may be times when we're not prepared for technical reasons to make a full update release to cure a platform specific issue. These are short term exceptions, not a free-for-all waiver of the rule, and certainly once the issue is fixed and published via the updater, the exception no longer applies.
The point is that unless otherwise directed by the team, the packaged distro client is what should be used with our servers. If you want to try to improve the client, build your own server and test it on your own, and submit it to a dev for consideration if it fixes a bug or enhances a feature to benefit the entire player base. You'd be encouraged to discuss your intent with a dev first to avoid wasting your time (and ours), and you probably should consider applying to the team at contributor or prospect level to get a more clear understanding of the development process and direction.
self built client if are taken from svn suggested revisions are allowed.
Sounds for me as if you are only allowed to use a self-compiled client if some team member told you so. And by no means you are allowed to connect to the official servers if you modified only one line from the code.
...but as the rules are phrased right now they don't feel very welcoming to casual contributors.
Sorry...won't comment on the recruitment page as my words would only derail this thread then...something I don't want for a thread of Eliseth.
While I think that most of those points are valid and worth discussing they all wouldn't be my first choice of things to change to improve PS. ;)
The whole development process does not feel very welcoming to casual contributors. On most open source projects you have a development mailing list where you can send patches to. Then they decide if they want to include that patch or not. Usually they do include it but tell you to change some things first, so it better fits their overall design. I think that is the better approach to hook up new developers as someone who has already spend hours developing a patch is more likely to make a few changes to get it accepted. Once one of your patches is accepted you already have some knowledge about the system and are more likely to develop another one.
The whole development process does not feel very welcoming to casual contributors. On most open source projects you have a development mailing list where you can send patches to. Then they decide if they want to include that patch or not. Usually they do include it but tell you to change some things first, so it better fits their overall design. I think that is the better approach to hook up new developers as someone who has already spend hours developing a patch is more likely to make a few changes to get it accepted. Once one of your patches is accepted you already have some knowledge about the system and are more likely to develop another one.
actually that's what the bugtracker is for (and crystal space uses the same development process. they are actually more strict you must always make a ticket to submit a patch even if the committer is talking with you, then it's commited it and the ticket closed if the patch is appropriate) make a bug with the patch and see if it gets approved obviously it can happen we don't accept it like in any opensource project so doing a patch without asking first is a risk for who does it.
A good place to contact devs ist #planeshift-build. :)
A good place to contact devs ist #planeshift-build. :)
But you can only get in contact with those developers which are online at the same time.
I still would strongly suggest a mailing list to improve communication. Writing a short answer to a problem on a mailing list is also possible at work. Browsing the planeshift forums while at work doesn't look too good. I think that this is also one of the reasons why many developers do not read forums (at least on other projects, as I said weltall is an exception).
tbh: mailing list is usually more overhead and getting a response is a lot slower ;)
at least during UTC daytime there's almost always someone around on IRC (either weltall or me) for engine questions and even if you have issues, you can still leave a PM here on the forum or write an email if you want to ;)
Not really important anymore as I stopped playing. Most of the things that were important for me were discussed, argued and dismissed already a long time ago. Basically it was about making a clearer separation between the two servers than just "on one you can't have names that refer to RL and have to stay IC". It's more important to attract every kind of players with both servers than giving them a clear purpose.QuoteWhile I think that most of those points are valid and worth discussing they all wouldn't be my first choice of things to change to improve PS. ;)
So what would be your fist change? Or would that escalate the thread as well? ;)
you can leave messages on irc with memoserv (and both of us me and rlydontknow have bouncers which will store queries which is even better)
Usually if projects work efficiently through irc the mailing list are usually deserted or dead vice versa if they don't have irc the mailing list work well.
Personally i'm not really inclined to start the n+1 resource about ps we have already a lot...
for the rest you sorta just need talad. although asking in the main channel will for sure give you an answer directing you to the right person.you can leave messages on irc with memoserv (and both of us me and rlydontknow have bouncers which will store queries which is even better)
You always talk about rlydontknow and yourself, whereas I'm talking about the whole team. Or are you both the only ones left? Suppose I have a question about how many vertices/triangles are allowed for a spell effect (i.e. something like the arrow). I guess that falls into the graphics department whereas other questions about effects might fall into the engine department.QuoteUsually if projects work efficiently through irc the mailing list are usually deserted or dead vice versa if they don't have irc the mailing list work well.
Personally i'm not really inclined to start the n+1 resource about ps we have already a lot...
I see your point. Just wanted to add my story, to show you guys with what problems newcomers have to struggle when they want to participate in development. It's not that easy to catch the right person if you don't really know who is responsible for what and how you can contact that guy.
WOO no complaints about sound/music \\o//The music is good...so why complain about it. Just after a year it gets a bit boring so I turned it off. The sound effects are still to rare to really judge on them (and also differ a lot in the quality...like the pretty old fire effects and the new thunder). But if you want some complaining ;) ...Putting work in NPC voices at a point when even the NPC texts weren't fixed/final yet was wasted time that could have been spent better.
The music is good...so why complain about it. Just after a year it gets a bit boring so I turned it off. The sound effects are still to rare to really judge on them (and also differ a lot in the quality...like the pretty old fire effects and the new thunder). But if you want some complaining ;) ...Putting work in NPC voices at a point when even the NPC texts weren't fixed/final yet was wasted time that could have been spent better.ya.... wasn't my call there...
The whole development process does not feel very welcoming to casual contributors. On most open source projects you have a development mailing list where you can send patches to. Then they decide if they want to include that patch or not. Usually they do include it but tell you to change some things first, so it better fits their overall design. I think that is the better approach to hook up new developers as someone who has already spend hours developing a patch is more likely to make a few changes to get it accepted. Once one of your patches is accepted you already have some knowledge about the system and are more likely to develop another one.really, what's the mailing list somewhere else is IRC in our case.
QuoteWhile I think that most of those points are valid and worth discussing they all wouldn't be my first choice of things to change to improve PS. ;)
So what would be your fist change? Or would that escalate the thread as well? ;)
really, what's the mailing list somewhere else is IRC in our case.
mailing lists are usually rather slow and it's really annoying to give meaningful feedback on those.
hence we usually go for IRC where you can give advices live also getting back whether the other side understood what your issues were, etc.
1) yeah probably but same could go for irc if you leave a message in queryreally, what's the mailing list somewhere else is IRC in our case.
mailing lists are usually rather slow and it's really annoying to give meaningful feedback on those.
hence we usually go for IRC where you can give advices live also getting back whether the other side understood what your issues were, etc.
I see your point and I also agree that IRC has _some_ advantages. However in my personal opinion mailing lists have many more advantages:
- You can answer whenever you have time. Even at work noone minds if you write an e-mail.
- IRC is only a live discussion if you are more or less in the same time zone (online at the same time).
- You can easily post nicely formated code snippets on a mailing list.
- IRC will kick you when posting longer code snippets for flooding.
- Mails allow you to quote single statements and answer to one specific part of a question.
- Multiple discussions at the same time can be followed more easily on a mailing list.
- Mailing lists allow multiple branches of the same discussion. This helps to analyze different aspects of a problem.
And the most important:
Mailing lists usually have a search function, so already answered questions can be retrieved by newcomers.
Additionally, having a mailing list does not mean you have to abandon IRC. A mailing list is just a nice way to ensure, that absolutely every developer receives a message. They don't need to regulary check a forum or some IRC logs, they just check their e-mails, which most people do anyway on a regular basis.
Just my two cents.
1) yeah probably but same could go for irc if you leave a message in query
3) same goes for irc
4) only if you have a bad/misconfigurated client and anyway www.pastebin.com, just to list one.
7) i find this as a strongly negative point in mailing list, it makes them quite messy and obliges to go roundtrip in a mailing list archive
logging irc like how ubuntu channels do would fix the question and search issue
I would recommend breaking those 2 into 6 or so categories each and voting on a specific thing, rather then just "art" or "mechanics"...