PlaneShift
Support => Complaint Department => Topic started by: Catlemur on November 10, 2010, 06:54:48 pm
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I want to organize an RP event but I need two new quests being created for it,a new NPC and a specific reward.Is it posible and if yes who can help me with that?
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LOL
From Game Master Team (http://www.hydlaaplaza.com/smf/index.php?topic=37217.0)
Q: What can a GM not do for me?
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* It would not constitute favoritism or compete with activities conducted by players in the game.
For example, GMs will not give out items unless part of an RP quest or event. We cannot give items upon request for every player in the game, so it is unfair to do it for a few. This would also interfere with player economy and the worth of items.
If you want to do a RP don't expect any help of GMs or the PS team at all. First most of them have no clue about roleplaying anyway and second even those very few who have aren't allowed to help. So either you do it alone or yu better look for another game where RP gets support.
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Aww... my niceness is coming back...
Aiwe... be nice. ;)
However, I can tell you that it is not very likely to happen Catlemur as NPCs are just a prop to be thrown up and pulled down. It would not only take too much effort to make you NPCs just for your event but also the reward of custom items would prevent problems. That's more along the lines of Aiwe's quote. However, I don't think it would be as devastating a problem in terms of the favoritism issue as it would have been in the past since there is are way fewer players to get up in arms about it.
I would say it is more beneficial to make a book item and find players willing to play the part of your characters. You might even be able to convince them to make a new character according to your specifications.
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Hey..I was nice...I left out the logs and examples of the marvelous RPs of some PS team members ;).
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another point not mentioned, anything the gm/dev team does is pretty much considered cannon settings wise as far as i understand things.
so if they went around helping people with requests like that, they'd first have to clear it with the settings team and what not, which can take awhile. far nicer for everyone if the gm's handle the official events, and the players are just given the proper tools to create their own.
But then you have the whole, "players don't have enough tools" argument all over again, which then the other side says, "they'll have them in due time", in which the first side then says "that answer isn't good enough and wants them now", in which the other side responds with "that if they want them now they are free to apply and help make them faster", in which the first side then says "they don't want to, or the application process is too hard, or some other excuse, and just blames the other side for not making the game more open to players" in which the other side comes back with some type of remark that then the argument devolves into pointless bickering from both sides and nothing ever gets accomplished and then the people that just lurk in the shadows sit back and laugh at both sides all the while some people get all upset at what happened and quit the game only to continue posting on the forums about how they quit the game and won't bother returning until everyone changes in X amount of ways they spell out in long posts across the forum, in which most people skip over and don't bother reading anyways, and then some other people even blog about what happened on the forums or go to third party sites to flame about it, and finally some one reports the thread for all that's transpired in it and the mod staff comes in and has to try and clean it up and make every calm down.
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So everything is pretty pointless. Just have fun with trolling in the forums for some time and then better forget about PS.
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or you could be an optimist and try to work out your differences and try to bridge the gap of player and gm/dev staff to come to a common ground and work together to make the game better for everyone. much like eli has tried to recently do with the skunkworks project.
myself, i'll simply keep on what i have been doing; enjoying my time in game with friends and meeting new people at every turn and listening to their interesting stories they bring while doing my part to further promote the game's development cycle.
but, this is the internet after all, and logic and reason seem to get lost in the tubes along the way. so philosophical topics such as this simply devolve into witty one liners that eventually leads to the philosoraptor making his glorious appearance. so i guess, bottom line, go have fun. just try not to step on other people's toes too badly in the process. like you, i'd rather be having fun in game, than doing the 'evil mod' duties i'm sometimes forced to do.
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The GMs did rename an item to The Champions Cup for an ongoing series of events that are player run. Also at engraving events it is possible to get items renamed which could be used to support a player run event.
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Now neko shows his true colors. After all the complaining about people arguing in the forums over such things he just goes and show that all he really wanted was a chance to do the whole argument by himself. ;D But he's being lazy. He only described the long posts rather than writing one out. :P And just to note, those long posts were read... just mostly by other people inclined to write long posts... but hey a long post describing grievances is better than spamming "you suck" all over the place. At least you know why people are upset.
or you could be an optimist and try to work out your differences and try to bridge the gap of player and gm/dev staff to come to a common ground and work together to make the game better for everyone. much like eli has tried to recently do with the skunkworks project.
In light of the fact that this is in response to Aiwe's comment, this is funny. You should ask him about bridging that gap sometime... ;D I'll spare you all my experiences in that field as I'm sure that post would be "too long." ;)
I think books are better than renamed items though as you have more room for detail. Items that have the right model are nice but even that isn't always quite the same as being able to convey to another player exactly what you mean.
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In light of the fact that this is in response to Aiwe's comment, this is funny. You should ask him about bridging that gap sometime... ;D I'll spare you all my experiences in that field as I'm sure that post would be "too long." ;)
i use the word 'you' loosely to talk to the target audience as a whole. if i meant you as in one specific person, then i would have used a quote to designate which person i was specifically referring to.
:)
I am fully aware of Aiwe's previous involvement with trying to better the game and how it turned out. And whereas there are some members of the team that don't care for the tone and word choices Aiwe uses in their posts they make on these forums due to those past events, I try to maintain a fair and balanced forum and respect them enough to let them have their say. Now, i'd be nice if they could word their points in a better constructive manner, but the same thing can be said for many post made by some members of the PS team as well.
to get back to the main point of my first post; to me, it seems both sides need to chill on the hostility front. calm down, think before you post, and relax a bit. its nice to see everyone so passionate about the game and them wanting to make it better, but everyone, player and dev alike need to have some patience and realize it isn't going to get there over night. it will, however, get there if everyone stops the endless circle that most posts on these forums seem to end up falling into, and try to work together to come to an agreement about the topic at hand, rather than degrade into useless name calling that threads have seem to be falling into lately.
but that's also partly my fault for taking such a hands off approach to moderating these past months, and just really letting threads try to work themselves out. So i will hold myself accountable in that regards for what has transpired. So lets try and be a bit more friendly and try to get things done in a more constructive way this time around shall we? no time like the present to start after all.
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Sorry for the :offtopic: stuff Catlemur but some topics never die.
I understand the general "you" but my point is not who but what. The efficacy, or lack thereof, of that tactic has been proven in the past.
For the longest time I said everything in as conciliatory a way as could be done without getting both sides of the argument to turn against me. I even risked ticking off both sides by trying to work in the background to get everybody to calm down and come together. Ask Lhaa how many times I asked him to lay off on the GMs and be nicer to them. I worked with both malcontents and the PS team and actually stayed around longer than most from either group. Despite that and the similar work of others, nothing got better. The problem is that such things are like putting a bandaid on cancer and hoping that one of these days it will work.
I agree on the needing to chill thing but there's a reason it flares, there's never any real progress or change from either side. And it would take a really big bag of some mellowin agent to get everyone to come together as no matter what, the cycle just never seems to get broken... even after malcontents leave. However, I'd say that it is less your fault these last 3 months as a lot of the really heated stuff was in the complaints department which you don't mod if I recall.
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If anything, the hot emotions that one sees on the forum; regardless of the side of the debate; indicate the emotion which PS brings out in all camps. That, in itself, is not a bad thing. It is really telling all of us that there is at least something that is important to us in some way. They could be shared or separate reasons; yet bottom line is that PS means or has meant something very strongly to all that are caught up in such threads.
That is a Good Thing (TM). Nova winks mischievously to Illysia
Perhaps the happy place is to except PS exactly what it is and where it is at any particular now; borrowing from eastern spiritual teachings of the same approach used in life, generally.
The divide grows when there are some folks in the discussions which have the abilities to make a Wish into reality and those that would not know where to start; yet know exactly what they would like achieved. My suggestion would be for those that have the abilities to give a good ear to dedicated players for their feedback and to be open and clear why they do not want to follow a particular direction. It could be, "It just doesn't interest me enough to dedicate my free time to it; let me tell you about this cool project I'm working on". Or how it doesn't work with settings, engine capabilities or server load. Whatever the reason; even if the dead end of it is not of interest; lay it out there to help remove some of the divide.
On the other side, those without the abilities required to bring a Wish to reality might want to show some respect of the time of those who have the abilities. More will get accomplished with logic and calm posts then heated emotion.
In the meantime we all except things as they are at any point in time to be what is and go from there.
"Talad's Blessing upon you!"
- Nova
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Say, I have some recent experience with getting frustrated and throwing a fit. I must say I did it in a much cooler fashion though, since I just insulted everyone right away and got the hell out of here... Until I felt homesick... And then kind of wrong.
The game's about playing a character in Yliakum, and it has some rules in both development and playing. So you can play, or you can develop it... But you have to follow the rules. These give space to some modifying towards a better roleplaying atmosphere, as we've seen from the past experience some people refuse to believe in.
However, it's been documented that progress is very slow in PlaneShift. Don't like it? Please leave. Want to troll? Welcome. Just don't bother my friend Neko here. I like him.
Though I disagree with him on one thing. This "woeful cycle" is not really woeful at all. This won't stop because it kicks ass how you can say what you want how you want in the internets and it hasn't stopped us from getting somewhere. Yes, yes. I repeat. Very slowly.
To keep in topic. It's normal that GM's won't help every single soul that comes around asking for help with their plot. What's not normal is saying you've got dirt on people, when that dirt is actually saying they can't fake they're someone else. Boohoo. If they can communicate then they can learn if they want to. If they don't want to, maybe they have other things to do like coding or designing or answering questions a robot could. Hell, you can even write a story without having to make believe you're something.
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Ah yes well that is all fine and good until you account for the fact that some of the most vehement complainers were contributors in some fashion and the perceived waste of time is part of what pushed them over the edge. Especially if the person felt spat upon or spited, gratitude will not be forth coming and for the people that typically turned to trolling this is the case.
It's one thing to wait if you haven't neglected your own life in the interest of promoting and improving the game, it is quite another to invest time (sometimes years) and effort like that only to see more or less the exact same state despite the efforts of many like minded people. Also toss in that progress this slow isn't a requisite even for a game made by volunteers and that makes for some pretty ticked off former players.
However, considering that many players despite their different backgrounds and desires seem to blow up and leave for many of the same reasons, I think that would be enough to conclude that there is a pattern worth looking into. i.e. :
My suggestion would be for those that have the abilities to give a good ear to dedicated players for their feedback and to be open and clear why they do not want to follow a particular direction.
But I can't see this happen as the team, with the exception of Eliseth and maybe Rlydontknow, seems to be too busy chasing down trees to worry about the whole forest. Many people knew exactly where to start with what they perceived a problem but they got ignored as just complainers for their efforts to help (even if said efforts were harsh). The problem is that it doesn't take pages and pages of long posts to only complain, even if you repeat yourself constantly.
But why bother writing out a well thought out critique and solution if it gets panned as bashing? I tried to be as specific as possible in my earlier suggestions, I tried doing research among past and present player base and I tried to say it as diplomatically as possible without dumping the critique entirely. The grand result was that the last attempt ended up locked and called bashing... Many older former players saw that, declared nothing had changed and gave up if they hadn't already. Some of the newer players stopped and questioned whether it is was even worth bothering. That's not conducive to progress and it's the same effect every time that happens to someone with a concern that won't just go away because the words "in development" get tossed around.
Like you and Neko say, Nova, both sides need to chill, especially whoever it was with mod powers that got delete happy a few months back, and come together but I don't foresee that happening to any great affect any time soon, even with the skunkworks project... Ideas are already out there, what you need are people that are humble enough to say "ok, why not? ...and if that doesn't work then we can scrap it and try another suggestion".
To me the best example of this problem was the intro system. The team tried to listen to the players and the system didn't work so well. I wouldn't call it a failure but it really needed some fine tuning. However, it felt like the team was embarrassed and tried to avoid listening and acting so directly after that when it was unnecessary. It's perfectly reasonable that the first implemented iteration of a system might not work so great, there's nothing wrong with having to scrap an idea or two or rework them. Especially since the game is in alpha as people are quick to point out. but it just really seemed like after that the team just tried to apply more of its own random fixes rather than listening to the players' concerns, an exception being the OSP but that seemed to be the brainchild of a few people who aren't necessarily around anymore either.
@Sangwa: Most don't feel bad later as they weren't just throwing a hissy fit. :P *runs away giggling*
Seriously though, in case you missed this part of the usual argument as of late, people are typically shoved into the "you have to be a tester more than a player, but if you have fun playing then whatever," category and that rubs people raw as most people would rather be more balanced or just play. It feels like the project hides its faults behind being "in development" but has no sympathy for the fact that most of its players are voluntary, amateur testers. It often sounds like people are told to test or shut up and it is unfair for a non professional team that is unable to provide a commercial level product to ask for perfectly profession testing from players that are actually in the same position.
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Now, i'd be nice if they could word their points in a better constructive manner, but the same thing can be said for many post made by some members of the PS team as well.
Fair request, just really hard to do for me nowadays. Catlemur being in the Skunkwork group made me forget he is a pretty new player who isn't used to my way of writing posts (nowadays). The quote in my first post was really meant to show him that what he asked for won't be possible...just had to add my usual dose of sarcasm that better should be ignored by people still having fun with the game. So along Neko's words I try to offer a bit more constructive suggestions for his request to at least pretend to stay on topic here:
First I can only agree that RP-book-items are the best way do go in such cases. You have much better control about the description this way and even can reproduce them is necessary. Also they can be done much faster than anything that needs GM involvement.
For the rewards...mhh..okay I try to be nice here. Too large rewards are usually a bad idea in my view. Just go with a little bit of money as reward. If you offer special items then there is a good chance you will get player taking part in your event who only want the reward and don't really care for your RP. Forcing people to RP just to satisfy their greed never worked...will only leave you frustrated about an event that didn't run very well and the players annoyed about having to read so much and getting nothing in return.
But I more want to say something about the NPCs part. Not really sure what you have in mind there but for RPs I think it's usually better to use some alts and get other people involved playing alts also. Player controlled characters are far more flexible and give a much better atmosphere than dumb NPCs. For example you have the possibility to play the char already some weeks before the event actually takes place and make a name with the char, find some friends and integrate him/her/kra in Yliakum's daily life. This often will also lead to events looking less scripted. We had an event about a robbery of a exploration party once...and tried to blame the leader of that party for it. Too bad just that the leader was already around for weeks before the event, made friend with some people who then wanted to prove his innocence. That gave use almost two months of RP of intrigues trying to hide the ones who were guilty and keep on blaming the innocent leader...what still didn't really work out in the end. Was a lot of fun and nothing we could have planned in advance. It only happened because that leader-alt-char had an own personality and spend a lot of time with integrating himself in the game.
Now to the off-topic part. What the hell is going on here? Stop taking my posts serious. Read them if you want, take what helps you and ignore the rest. The game is not really worth caring about for me anymore...only a few people here are. I know that there aren't many players around anymore who really know how harsh posts written by me before I stopped playing were..and even much less knowing how nice my posts before that were. My current posts are almost "tame".
or you could be an optimist and try to work out your differences and try to bridge the gap of player and gm/dev staff to come to a common ground and work together to make the game better for everyone. much like eli has tried to recently do with the skunkworks project.
And the skunkwork team has my respect for trying. Just doubt anyone could think I would be still up for something like this nowadays. And I think it's also clear that I have my doubts about it working out very well...but that doesn't change I hope they succeed with it.
like you, i'd rather be having fun in game, than doing the 'evil mod' duties i'm sometimes forced to do.
Mod duties itself aren't evil. Only the way they are done sometimes can be seen as evil. I can think of only one time I ranted about your mod work...what was already after I stopped playing and wasn't about anything really important. I might have ranted already a few times before...but then wasn't aware it was about you as I often didn't know who deleted my posts. Never really had any issues with you...most of the time only with some others who played Mod in the forums.
The GMs did rename an item to The Champions Cup for an ongoing series of events that are player run. Also at engraving events it is possible to get items renamed which could be used to support a player run event.
Oh...sorry, didn't know that's possible now. How about updating the rules that in very few cases GMs might provide some limited help for player events. Not only true about the rule I quoted. As far as I know the last official statement about in-game posters is still this (http://www.hydlaaplaza.com/smf/index.php?topic=36326.0) for example. So there weren't any posters put up for players in the last year? As I try to be constructive I will leave out the comment about the engraving. ;)
or you could be an optimist and try to work out your differences and try to bridge the gap of player and gm/dev staff to come to a common ground and work together to make the game better for everyone. much like eli has tried to recently do with the skunkworks project.
In light of the fact that this is in response to Aiwe's comment, this is funny. You should ask him about bridging that gap sometime... ;D I'll spare you all my experiences in that field as I'm sure that post would be "too long." ;)
Better not...or I would write a long post again that only ends up deleted in minutes. ;) But my opinion is not important about this anyway. I have no interest anymore trying to improve the game. That's up for the new players now. Also the game isn't the same anymore. The reasons people playing nowadays (except having fun) are different than the reasons why I (and you) played so they have other needs (which I hardly can understand).
On the other side, those without the abilities required to bring a Wish to reality might want to show some respect of the time of those who have the abilities. More will get accomplished with logic and calm posts then heated emotion.
Even "bonus of respect" for working on PlaneShift can be used up at some point...nobody involved in those "heated" discussions started without respect for the others. Most just ended up without any respect left. Oh...and I think you miss an important group there. Those who with the abilities to "bring a wish to reality" but are ignored or want something that isn't wanted for PS.
But why bother writing out a well thought out critique and solution if it gets panned as bashing?
Because I am naive at times and really think some people are able to read. At least I don't get disappointed anymore when finding out most aren't. ;)
To me the best example of this problem was the intro system. The team tried to listen to the players and the system didn't work so well. I wouldn't call it a failure but it really needed some fine tuning. However, it felt like the team was embarrassed and tried to avoid listening and acting so directly after that when it was unnecessary. It's perfectly reasonable that the first implemented iteration of a system might not work so great, there's nothing wrong with having to scrap an idea or two or rework them.
Very true. Scrapping the whole system because it didn't work right from the start and then using it all the time as an example of what happens if devs listen to players was...not very ideal. First an introduction system would be still a nice addition and second by this logic half of PS had to be thrown away as it doesn't work correctly in the first implementation.
but it just really seemed like after that the team just tried to apply more of its own random fixes rather than listening to the players' concerns, an exception being the OSP but that seemed to be the brainchild of a few people who aren't necessarily around anymore either.
Mhh...the OSP was a nice idea at the start...but pretty soon it didn't feel like a project to listen to players concerns anymore but a project to keep players under control. But I know we have a different opinion there. ;)
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@Aiwendil, all
much better. :thumbup:
and to expand on a few things that were brought up as well:
regarding the subject of moderation on the forum; there are some internal issues I have had and discussed with Talad from time to time in regards on how a proper forum should be run. many of the issues stem from the forum being very old, with little to no upkeep performed on it from an administration level. I do what I can with the rights I have, but until a full time Admin is designated, issues will appear from time to time. but as I said, that's an internal issue, and I hope I can get it resolved sooner rather than later. I'm sure you'll all notice once it does though. There's plenty of changes and updates that can be made to make this place far better than what it currently is.
and to tie into that, the stickies; they are in need of going over and updating. i have a list a mile long of stuff that needs to be done. the problem is getting approval and the ability/time to do it. but again, more internal issues to work out that i hope will be addressed sooner rather than later. as far as the specific GM sticky that was brought up in this thread, I will talk over with the team to see if they would like to append it to better word it with the examples Sarv gave earlier in the thread.
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Let me sum up my previous remark: your big posts are not worth reading. The real help is only done by developers and players who can have fun on this testing phase and who don't go around saying there's a conspiracy to hide problems. That helps with nothing and it's completely idiotic. There are flaws because people are human, there are flaws because some of the rules have been made by humans. No one is trying to create a flawed game without the rest of us knowing. Geez.
Players who complain repetitively and in an annoying tone simply serve to create the repulse the developers have developed towards player feedback.
So, to make it short, it would be better if you threw a hissing fit and got the hell out of my face.
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as I don't have much time right now just some "way too short" reply to the off-topic in here as I think there's already been everything said for the topic itself:
To me the best example of this problem was the intro system. The team tried to listen to the players and the system didn't work so well. I wouldn't call it a failure but it really needed some fine tuning. However, it felt like the team was embarrassed and tried to avoid listening and acting so directly after that when it was unnecessary. It's perfectly reasonable that the first implemented iteration of a system might not work so great, there's nothing wrong with having to scrap an idea or two or rework them.
Very true. Scrapping the whole system because it didn't work right from the start and then using it all the time as an example of what happens if devs listen to players was...not very ideal. First an introduction system would be still a nice addition and second by this logic half of PS had to be thrown away as it doesn't work correctly in the first implementation.
the system wasn't scrapped as a whole. after all it's still intact the way it was left and is simply disabled, so I'd like to add a comment regarding features in this state (which are quite a few):
the problem is there are quite a few half-done things that need to be finished of which it's mostly even unclear how exactly they should look like in the end (combat moves and a bunch of scripting features among others) which would need quite some design work and a lot of time to finish. on the other hand a whole bunch of bugs and feature requests pop up on a daily basis that needs attention as well (not even including the resolving of design issues and optimizations that have to be done, too). and that's just the engine side.
or making a long thing short: there are several thousand hours work-time that have piled up by some means that are all semi-critical and have to be done more soon than not (especially bigger tasks like a db redesign, rests of moving on to shaders (e.g. effects), sound issues, ...) while the team is really small (only 2 devs - weltall and me with me not being fully counted atm as I don't have much time right now due to the amount of workload I've gotten lately due to my studies and some financial issues) and a few prospects that are still new and trying to get used to the system (hence cannot do such big tasks).
such a situation leads - of course - to focusing on critical tasks where needed and the bigger tasks as many other things depend on those (and it's pretty much wasted time to fix-up a somewhat broken system as you'll have to port that as well once there's a new one) and maybe some smaller tasks where applicable.
(that's been engine taken as example, but art, rules and settings have similiarily big tasks piled up that need to be done grouped with a bunch of bug fixes that need to be done, too)
so as a resumee: if you're told "do it yourself", it's not because we're mean or don't like an idea, it's because there's already such a huge to-do list that everyone is really already busy with something else. and sure, maybe we're "chasing down trees instead of worrying about the forest", but I personally think of it as "you have to start somewhere".
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Oh, so you're not hoarding these errors and erroneous approaches so you can one day laugh at everyone? Man, that conclusion took a lot of reasoning to be reached.
These guys are just trolling. You and Neko are proof enough that the dev team cares about opinions. I mean, you're here talking to them when anyone reasonable can understand a developer team can't go around following everyone's whim when most of these whims are not practical like "make another dev team to listen to players and heed their every word" when it seems there aren't devs enough to keep up with the current work.
The developers are doing a great job, even if they're taking incomprehensible loads of time. But maybe they are incomprehensible because there's little visibility or knowledge of the work it actually takes.
You'll always have people complaining about it because they think the time and effort they've spent trying to collaborate when no one has forced them to has been wasted. When the truth is they just have too much time on their hands and too little patience.
It also seems that this displeasure of them is important, but it is only apparent because people who are glad with the game do not bother with writing about it, since they're having fun in-game and well, it's just a game and not like you're giving them a job... While people that are displeased seem to focus their time mentioning it over and over again because they feel its their obligation.
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Good to see at least Sangwa will always keep up a good argumentative atmosphere here...as long as he stays this time. ;)
But yes I knew the introduction system is still in the sourcecode..stumbled upon it. With scrapped I more meant abandoned and never taken up again. While I can understand very well that every dev wants to work on things fun for him/her it's sometimes hard to understand why some older broken system don't get much attention but instead something newer is added that might just end up neglected like some of the older system. (*mumbles something about NPC voices*). But in the end the ongoing development (in terms of code) and flaws of PS weren't what turned off most long-time-players that left. If that had been the issue those would never had played the game for such a long time. If I remember right most of the biggest arguments I had in these forums were about the "culture" of PS...to use an recent example: Implementing mounts codewise for sure wasn't anything bad...failing to give guidance how to probably use them in roleplays and forcing players to endless OOC questing to get one on a RP server was. But that was only my view...I think all that arguing had something good in the end. It lead to a new kind of playerbase who much better fit the vision of the PS team than the one in the past did. And it helped those who don't fit in to realize it.
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The problem isn't requiring quests or lots of time. The quest to get the mount seems plausible: not everyone is qualified to have one because the sellers require to know if you'll treat it well and because you have to be a smart ass with access to the winch, since not every peasant should get a mount. Actually, the only thing wrong with that quest is when someone asks you to do a smuggling job and that someone gets caught or not 10000 times. It makes it a single player quest just like that.
The Developers have spent hours designing the single player quest system we have and they aren't going to give up on it over the night. You seem to understand this and so you should try to help accordingly: if they make new single player quests, we nag them. If they make new multiplayer quests or modify the old single player quests, we praise them.
We can't be too repetitive though, or sound too angry or we risk the fun of some people who are not into discussing like us.
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OK I have seen this complaint before that players are forced todo OOC quests in order to get X item. Ah no players are not forced to do anything. Players should realize that choosing to play a certain player type may provide certain limitations, if the player is going to stay IC all the time. For example if you choose to play an evil character, maybe a black flame type, then you should realize that it would be OOC to do a bunch of goodie goodie type quests just to get a certain item. After all there are a lot of things I want in RL but can't get because I can't or chose not to what is required to get those items. DAMN the Devs of RL and how unfair they are trying to force me into doing OOC things just to get some of the pretty pretty items I want in RL. The problem is players seem to not want to be limited by the type of character they choose to play. They want to be able to get all the special items without the limitations of having to stay IC. Also just because you can't get an item via the quest, because the quest would be OOC, doesn't mean you are doomed to never getting that item. The item might be available via a GM event, where the event is more IC for your character, or you could buy the items from someone or maybe make arrangements with another character to get the item for you in return for some deal you make.
It is my understanding that when the new factions system comes then the path a player chooses, ie what factions they chose to go after, will have real limitations since for example I believe it will be impossible to have a 100 faction in both good and evil at the same time and each faction at the highest level will have certain privileges and or rewards that are unique to that faction.
Now the one area I think could use some improvement is that when talking to the initial NPC more details about what the quest involves should be given so the player can better decide if the quest is IC or OOC for their character.
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What makes the quests OOC here is not that they go against characters, Sarva. If that was it, Awiendil there wouldn't be exclaiming.
The problem here is that most quests are implicitly OOC because they are single player quests. They're quests which plenty of parts your character can't claim to have done, because you can't claim that you've reported a smuggler when everyone else has reported him thousands of times exactly for the same lost item and nothing happened to him.
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The problem here is that most quests are implicitly OOC because they are single player quests. They're quests which plenty of parts your character can't claim to have done, because you can't claim that you've reported a smuggler when everyone else has reported him thousands of times exactly for the same lost item and nothing happened to him.
Maybe the NPC could have its name changed each time the quest is solved; with a call to the random name generator. Even if the list were static with 100->1000 pre-generated name, it would be more like...
"I reported NPC1 again last night,"
"Oh yeah I reported NPC2 the other day."
'At least we have not heard from NPC999 for some time!"
Hope NPC names are not hard coded. ;D
Suggested as a quick fix, only.
- Nova
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Ok, now we have confirmation that the dev team is in fact tiny now... (keep in mind it wasn't always this small) (old argument #1) Umm... yeah... That's kinda why people complained about a need to change direction as something about the way the team is run must run off help. People that I wouldn't have even suspected as being fed up with working on PS as say a dev left for that reason. I was shocked to hear about Karyuu as the last time I talked to her it was the players driving her nuts but I don't think striking out at players is what got her a ban.
There were and still are tons of people that are willing to help and yet it always fizzles out regardless of the fact that there are obviously many people that feel strongly about the game and at one time were ready and eager to help... All of that help disappating might have been described as people coming and going in the past but considering that people that just didn't have anymore time to spend are fewer in numbers than those that got fed up, someone needs to acknowledge that there is a pattern and get on it. Cycles come back to were they started eventually, this is just a slower downward spiral. And contrary to the beliefs of certain person, Xillix didn't steal away help, people went to where they felt their help would actually be listened to and *gasp* used in the way it was offered.
Long story short, beggars can't be choosers but things like Talad's little rampages or weltall's little rants about do it it yourself and stop bothering us prove that it isn't abundantly clear throughout the team that the devs are far more dependent on the players and their help than players are on the devs and their game. Not that anyone has to be condescending to each other but until people like Talad get it out of their heads that players should be grateful to hassle with and work on their less than beta game, there's still going to be that tension that will eventually push people to say "it's not worth it. I give up." All lot of the time it felt like help given was expected to be given as thought it were somehow owed... like you were a paid employee, like there was no other higher concerns. And it was always stated that people worked on the game becuase they were happy but the fact that people would just leave or disappear proves otherwise. Happy people check in even if they don't have time to come back but there are a lot of tumbleweeds blowing through these days. There is too much willful ignorance and condescension for the team to sustain more than a few member for for a long period of time. Nobody owes anything to this game and everybody can walk away from it and the world would still spin, which is why the entire team, not just a few reading the forums, should come down a few pegs if they want players to rise to the occasion. Just expecting players to do better without some changed in the culture of the team is like running rat wheel... you'll get nowhere fast.
And about being forced to do quests, even when they didn't fit the character... (Old argument #2). Yes Sarva but that was the kinds of stuff older RPers were trying to get the community out of the habit of doing when we were told to more or less shut up and pack it up as the new group had their own ideas about RP... funny how better RP would actually take down some of the mechanics complaints as players would be too busy making their world the way they wanted it without new mechanics rather than sitting around waiting for devs to code in limits so they don't have to think about it. ;) Not that all complaints would disappear but I do find it funny that many of the complaints of the older players, who have largely left (and a few decent newer players as well), are starting to resurface from newer mouths. I know it sounded like useless nagging but it was just critique from experience. I imagine that in time the community will mature again and probably get back to the point it was at but it was unnecessary to go so far back in the first place.
If there was still a larger body of people that already knew how to limit their characters without hamstringing them, there is a chance that repetitive quests would be more ignorable as players would be relying more on each other for input than NPCs... But supposedly the new community had solutions for stuff like that which is why the input from older players saying stuff like this was unnecessary. ;)
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Novacadian: I think the solutions is _much_ simpler. You just need to ignore the specific part. You need a mount? Then just go speak with the concerned people and they'll tell you what you need. Why would you need to deal with a smuggler beforehand? Just so it looks cool? Well, it doesn't look cool. It actually looks crappy.
Illysia: Easy with the keyboard, specially when you're repeating your old ideas. Most of us know the license and the Talad aren't the best things that happened to us, but these are things which are complicated to solve and we can't just wish them into reality.
And developers getting an attitude is pretty normal, considering the number of times they listen to the same stuff and to annoying brats that think they're witty.
About the quests, I can't see anything wrong with doing a quest OOC optionally (to get an item.) You want the item, but you don't want to roleplay how you got it... Sure, do it. Just like we roleplay having these clothes or that ones when we don't actually have them. Or how our character should have this cool sword but we don't want to say it was Trasok who did it. Not a biggie, since just some few characters fall into this category. These are details that should be worked out, but that do not require any urgency.
What has some urgency are the single player quests since no one can roleplay them.
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Oh this is nothing Sangwa. I wrote this (http://www.hydlaaplaza.com/smf/index.php?topic=37729.0) over the course of a day, not counting time spent formating it (which was a pain mind you).
Nah, even quests are not that urgent, what is needed is putting the emphasis back on player to player RP, and not just that "it's up to players to work it out" policy either. Player to player interaction, and in particular RP, has always been the game's saving grace, whether that was recognized or not. Part of the reason people aren't caught up enough in RP to completely ignore OOC aspects of quests is that there isn't enough people to be caught up with. Part of the reason for the lack of people is that there aren't enough deep RPs too keep people around. It's a self perpetuating problem, but if you deal with the RP aspect, you can more easily get people in RPs that will keep them around and you can start a positive feedback loop.
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Novacadian: I think the solutions is _much_ simpler. You just need to ignore the specific part. You need a mount? Then just go speak with the concerned people and they'll tell you what you need. Why would you need to deal with a smuggler beforehand? Just so it looks cool? Well, it doesn't look cool. It actually looks crappy.
you don't have to. just because an NPC asks you to do something doesn't mean you have to.
What has some urgency are the single player quests since no one can roleplay them.
let's remove NPC quests then \o/ it's totally OOC brado needs his tavern cleaned off rats a thousand times per day or that jomed keeps asking for mushrooms, too.
honestly: that one simply falls into the "unrealistic, but accepted" category. it's always been like that and I've never seen even a single mmo that'd be an exception to that rule. why? because it simply doesn't make sense as nobody would be able to quest at all if it was layed out in a realistic way (e.g. that nice guard really needing his lunch only once a day, that shield having to be repaired only each few weeks/months, ...) - there'd be less quests to do per day than there are players online even on ezpc ;)
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it's always been like that and I've never seen even a single mmo that'd be an exception to that rule. why? because it simply doesn't make sense as nobody would be able to quest at all if it was layed out in a realistic way.
Actually, not entirely true as mabinogi's "job" system does in fact work that way. It's limited, not everybody does the same job for the same NPC and you can only do a job for that NPC once in an in game day. But aside from Mabinogi and it's "would be lovely for an RP game" mechanics, most MMOs are not in anyway RP oriented nor do they have mechanics suitable for RP, aside from the fact that your character is capable of being a class that you can't be and looking like you don't. As I have always said, PS needs to make up it's mind, either it's a role playing game or just an RPG like any other. The constant switching back and forth is part of why progress is hindered, its focus is apparently still not well enough defined to come down squarely for one side or the other and yes, sometimes things have to be that black and white to make progress.
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OK I have seen this complaint before that players are forced todo OOC quests in order to get X item. Ah no players are not forced to do anything.
What makes the quests OOC here is not that they go against characters, Sarva. If that was it, Awiendil there wouldn't be exclaiming.
Thanks Sangwa. Yes...seems no matter what I say and how it's always possible to misunderstand for some people. Quests are OOC at all...no way that they can be taken IC in any way. I would never bother to complain about people doing quests that don't fit their character as they are OOC in general already. If someone wants to do quests that is fine...if someone wants to play a baddie but also does the goodie quests also no problem..they are OOC already. So sorry Sarva, but I disagree with you there. Players are free to do whatever quests they want to do as it doesn't matter...none of them can be used for character development anyway. As long as people understand that three people in the tavern ranting about the the same hydlaa guard who send each of them to get his gauntlets can't be take serious I see no problem with that at all..just don't include them in any RP you do.
But this is just an example why it got so hard for me to stay constructive in these forums. I didn't say anything of what Sarva assumed...still not sure how this can be read into my words at all. But no matter what is said about this topic...the only thing remaining in people's minds will be that I complained people can't get all glyphs just because they play a bad char. This has nothing to do what I wanted to say...but is always the same again. Like I seem to hate all game mechanics...while I had one of the better trained chars in PS.
The Developers have spent hours designing the single player quest system we have and they aren't going to give up on it over the night. You seem to understand this and so you should try to help accordingly: if they make new single player quests, we nag them. If they make new multiplayer quests or modify the old single player quests, we praise them.
Have fun with that..I won't do anything to help PS anymore. I helped including the patches I submitted while I still played in the source-code because when I posted them I still wanted to help...and not retreating from this now. But I won't try anything new or offer more help than this...PS is not worth it in my view and I got annoyed enough about it already.
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Novacadian: I think the solutions is _much_ simpler. You just need to ignore the specific part. You need a mount? Then just go speak with the concerned people and they'll tell you what you need. Why would you need to deal with a smuggler beforehand? Just so it looks cool? Well, it doesn't look cool. It actually looks crappy.
you don't have to. just because an NPC asks you to do something doesn't mean you have to.
You're not understanding what I'm saying. I'm saying no one can actually roleplay to deal with the smuggler. Let me give an example:
Sangwa has gets an item this dwarf needs for an unique event.
Albert gets an item this dwarf needs for an unique event.
Sangwa and Albert can't roleplay getting this event because it was meant to be unique.
What has some urgency are the single player quests since no one can roleplay them.
let's remove NPC quests then \o/ it's totally OOC brado needs his tavern cleaned off rats a thousand times per day or that jomed keeps asking for mushrooms, too.
honestly: that one simply falls into the "unrealistic, but accepted" category. it's always been like that and I've never seen even a single mmo that'd be an exception to that rule. why? because it simply doesn't make sense as nobody would be able to quest at all if it was layed out in a realistic way (e.g. that nice guard really needing his lunch only once a day, that shield having to be repaired only each few weeks/months, ...) - there'd be less quests to do per day than there are players online even on ezpc ;)
I'm just using this example to further explain how you didn't understand me. I say quests like cleaning the rats make sense, even without restrictions. But quests like brado signing the same contract 1000000 with a performer aren't. Hope you got it.
Aiwendil, most times developers get us wrong because they're expecting us to just be trying to discredit them. We just have to be polite. Also, thanks for the work.
As far as helping players with their RP, that's hard to do. I think devs can only make things easier for us. If they do the early plot development like I've said, it should be enough.
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Aiwendil, most times developers get us wrong because they're expecting us to just be trying to discredit them. We just have to be polite. Also, thanks for the work.
As far as helping players with their RP, that's hard to do. I think devs can only make things easier for us. If they do the early plot development like I've said, it should be enough.
Being polite often gets you ignored. People have been all kinds of polite but not much has changed. And it is official team policy that RP is up to the players and devs do not concern themselves with that...
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Novacadian: I think the solutions is _much_ simpler. You just need to ignore the specific part. You need a mount? Then just go speak with the concerned people and they'll tell you what you need. Why would you need to deal with a smuggler beforehand? Just so it looks cool? Well, it doesn't look cool. It actually looks crappy.
you don't have to. just because an NPC asks you to do something doesn't mean you have to.
You're not understanding what I'm saying. I'm saying no one can actually roleplay to deal with the smuggler. Let me give an example:
Sangwa has gets an item this dwarf needs for an unique event.
Albert gets an item this dwarf needs for an unique event.
Sangwa and Albert can't roleplay getting this event because it was meant to be unique.
I did understand it. but it's still the same thing. there aren't a million rats in brado's cellar either. so whether the smuggler was dealt with or the rats are already dead: it's the same thing, just a "do it once" vs "do it daily/weekly/...". it does not make sense to do it as often, perfectly agreed. but: it's an "accepted nonsense" if you want so as it's something you trade off for playability (assuming that needing a few thousand quests to just feed starters with meaningful quests is not considered playability).
it's really not that your point isn't understandable, but just think about it again. you'd need at least several houndred quests that are suited for the system you proposed (here and outlined in your thread) to just keep the few players busy we have. also re: your "plot quests" in that thread: there's no point in writing a quest for such a purpose, a GM event does just as well.
it's a completely different concept seen in many of the commercial "free to play" games (tons of new content intended for "single"(may also apply to sufficiently rare") use), however that's just not the way a "quest system" works. it essentially means replacing the "quest system" with a pure "event system" of which a few are cyclic. anyway, I'm sure you know enough about the frequency of GM events we currently have to know this is simply not realistic and I'm somewhat confident you may recognize that it's simply not practical at the current stage of development (probably not even once the game is in a finished state) as it requires a vast amount of story-writers as well as "actors" if I may call GMs so in that context to make that come true (even put aside the griefing that results from one-time quests and such).
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@Illysia
They don't ignore you. They just don't lick your boots back. I've seen many things I've proposed to be implemented, even though it wasn't answered at the time.
Even without GM oriented plots, some creative players may be able to come up with a general plot type of thing. It hasn't been working that well so far, but I'll be trying to change that for the oncoming year. I like the players we've got around.
@RlyDontKnow
I don't agree with you. Rats keep coming, Joseph the Smuggler is just one and if he's caught he's gone forever. There's a great difference which is consistency: it makes much more sense to have quests that are actually tasks than having quests that well... are nothing but ways of getting items and knowledge that can't be used in game. The 'accepted' nonsense is much greater when you ask someone to save the same princess a thousand times than when you ask someone to clean the batch of rats that showed up today at the tavern.
But hey, it's your choice. I can only make sense.
As far as the general plots I've asked, I can't see what's the problem. The current events are a waste of time for everyone but the lucky ones who participate in them, while these events I ask would come up with material for everyone to use.
Dude even one of these each 2 years would leave these suckers happy. And all you have to do is 2 or 3 normal events separated in the time you decide you need. Then afterwards move NPC A to place Z and add a new line to NPC B. Tadah! Everyone is happy because stuff happens.
I'm not asking you to change the whole of Yliakum each time.
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@Illysia
They don't ignore you. They just don't lick your boots back. I've seen many things I've proposed to be implemented, even though it wasn't answered at the time.
As I have been ignored to my face, I beg to differ. I never expected boot licking, but if a solution that is being used isn't working... try another. X-/ One of the problems with this game is that there is a culture of trying to shove the round peg into the square hole at all costs. Maintaining status quo is kinda useless if there are barely any people around to partake in it. For an RP community that isn't as close knit and paranoid to outsiders as others, the online count is a really poor showing. Other communities have online numbers this low because they restrict the people that can join and will actually kick people out. This game just has a high turnover and people come in and then back out like they go through a revolving door.
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Aaaah, natural selection.
I know what you mean Illysia. But that realization has its limitations: it can only be used to know the reality you are in. After having it, you should move on: either try changing things by yourself or stop lingering at the door. Though if you're okay with it, you can linger, I don't mind.
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Oh my eyes, thirty-five minutes of reading this thread and I've hardly seen anything that hasn't already been mentioned, debated, or ranted about. There are obviously two sides to the argument that is going on and neither one is saying much in terms of improving any thing or idea that hasn't been denied approval. I can start to see what the "evil dev's" (hey, a dev said that) point of view on what should be done. There aren't many devs around to do anything, may Talad want it or not. To add my own thought on what has been said on the thread, I would have to say that no matter what direction that this game is going in it will be unsuccessful at this rate, because for various reasons, some reasons more common than others, people don't join or stay on the team.
@Catlemur...whom is the topic of this mess of a thread: If you actually read this I want you to know that if you can't get these things then just roleplay having done those quests, and roleplay having the rewards. That's the best piece of advice that I have for you.
@Aiwendil and Illysia: I want to give some advice to you two. You have great minds and talents, but why spend the time you have making these long posts? Many of the things you have said and have to say get shunned, so why do you still bother? Anyways...the advice. Get away from this game. I know you're getting away from it, but you need to like...GET GET away from it. You could be doing better things than posting here, things that will bring you happyness. (unless recollecting and repeating previous critiques/rants and posting them nowadays is really making you happy?) What I sense is sentimentality of years spent roleplaying. the latter years leaving you with many unpleasing memories and experiences. Though I'm just guessing your motives and experiences but I don't really know them, so I'll not speculate anymore. No wait...I'll speculate one more thing about you two: you didn't join or stay on the PS team because you didn't want to help build their glass skyscraper because of how smudged and ugly it is getting due to some of the motives of a person (or more than one person) on the PS team, and you don't want to be one of their lab rats. Just stay away from this game, it's a waste of time to dwell. IMHO sentimentality is stupid, so my opinionated advice is to not dwell in it. I'm pretty much leaving PS because of some of the same reasons you two have, so perhaps I haven't been around long enough to have the same mawkishness. I dunno, you can take my advice or leave it, because I did just tell you to go away. :P
@Sangwa: I'm glad that you still harbor some reason to stay here...perhaps hope that things will get better...I don't know what it is, because I definitely don't have it. Just do whatever makes you happy and stop letting what others think bother you so much. (I'm guessing the reason you're throwing out post after post on this thread is because you are bothered by what others are saying, please correct me if I'm wrong).
Sorry, I had to poop out my weird clump of thoughts. X-/ I'm not exactly graceful at writing posts about arguments like these. Sorry if I offended anybody by my speculations and guesses.
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They are long because we want to complete our thought whether or not anyone can be bothered to read it. We don't sit down and say, "I'm going to make a super long post today." But after developing the thought, it takes paragraphs to fully say what we mean, as we aren't going to be lazy and just type "you suck" despite the fact that it always seems to get interpreted that way by the people that need to consider it most. If you aren't sure how that happens, just look back on your post and consider whether or not you intended your advice to take up that many words when you started. ;)
I don't know about Aiwe, but my posting here is just classic avoidance behavoir. It's less mind numbing to waste time on this forum for awhile than to spend all my time doing homework.
Oh and happiness has an "i" Oh Corrector of Spelling Mistakes. ;D
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I don't agree with you. Rats keep coming, Joseph the Smuggler is just one and if he's caught he's gone forever. There's a great difference which is consistency: it makes much more sense to have quests that are actually tasks than having quests that well... are nothing but ways of getting items and knowledge that can't be used in game. The 'accepted' nonsense is much greater when you ask someone to save the same princess a thousand times than when you ask someone to clean the batch of rats that showed up today at the tavern.
But hey, it's your choice. I can only make sense.
I agree with this in principle, but I don't know if the logical inconsistencies the quests cause are so crucial the system needs to be scrapped altogether. I love to RP and (when I'm not kept away from the game waiting for my laptop to be repaired, as I am now X-/ ) do it often, but there are also times when it's wonderfully relaxing to just run around doing the RPG thing. I just pick and choose what quest experiences I'm going to intergrate into my character's personal history. I don't think semi-regular events or a jobs board would work nearly as well.
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:offtopic:Catlemur gets killed by an offtopic tsunami. :offtopic:
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@Aiwendil and Illysia: ...
Though I'm just guessing your motives and experiences but I don't really know them, so I'll not speculate anymore. No wait...I'll speculate one more thing about you two:...
Geoni, your advise seems wise; however in the case of Illysia my speculation is different than yours somewhat. For whatever reason Illysia's gang of RPers left PS. She hung on; yet things were not the same without her old gang of cronies. It seems somewhat self evident that she depended on the old gang to instigate the RPs; as even though she bemoans the present state of RPs and has all kinds of ideas how to bring RP back to PS she does not; or can not; instigate RP herself or she would be out there doing it instead of spreading her bitterness on these forums.
Then there are the sad and lonely posts of her sitting in the Stonehead waiting for someone; anyone; to drop round for RP. This seemed to bring the bitterness to a boil. It is very odd that since new management has taken over Stonehead that they need only appear on the Buddies list for the place to fill a table to overflowing. They are not just there for a drink, chat or bar fight; but bring larger RP plots to those in attendance.
So one has to wonder if RP left PS or just Illysia. We will likely have a page or two of explaination from her after this post; yet watch carefully that no responsibility will be taken on her part.
My feeling is that rather than face the fact that she was the one that the present RPers left behind she blames the dev team, mechanics, present player base.... anything but herself. Why might they have left her our of their network of RPs? Would you want her talking to you in a channel in the same condescending manner which she posts on the forum? Go figure.
The style of RP she talks about can be done in a chat room; and even better under the PS software. So why isn't she doing it? My guess is she can't. My guess is she followed along the RPs of the past; depending on other more imaginative individuals who have now long gone.
Why have they gone? Perhaps modern hardware restrictions, present mechanics that do not make it so easy to stroke one's ego, dislike to the present direction of PS to a partner and two children? Or perhaps all of the above. Nothing remains the same. Life moves on and, like you Geoni, my feeling is that so should Illysia.
Aiwendil, on the other hand, should hang on until his brain has been totally picked of all the wonderful contributions he makes on how to handle client configuration and so on. Then; if he still feels that there is nothing for him in PS; he, too, should take your advise.
- Nova
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Hehe...no need to worry. I only hang out here when I don't have access to my real computer and am bored with the old notebook that can't do much else than running a webbrowser. For sucking more contributions out of my head...I fear I have to disappoint you. The roleplaying guide is available in the OL forums, my patches are included for the next release of PS, here I posted everything that could be useful for the current PLer generation of players and Lilura for sure has more advisor points than me by now. I don't have anything else to offer...nor am willing to submit any more code.
And I have to admit that it's a pretty good way to just lower the standards on what RP is. Then it's easy to say there is enough. I never was a very good roleplayer but even I would never call anything happening in PS at the moment decent RP...but I guess it depends on the point of view. So enjoy all the great RP guilds like the Bounty hunters (http://www.hydlaaplaza.com/smf/index.php?topic=35569.msg407629#msg407629) or Dark Warmongers give you. And I am sure the current visitors of the SH (http://www.hydlaaplaza.com/smf/index.php?topic=37859.0) are good for some decent RP also. Good that I am not in game anymore or I would only get in an new argument with some GMs again about banning all those in general from the RCD.
Maybe it's time to suggest all those people telling other to use a chat client for RPing that they are in the wrong place in a role-playing game and better should go and play some quake or doom...fits them much better. In my view everybody telling people using the chat window in game that they should go and play on IRC hasn't understood the "role" in role-playing...and mistook it for a "roll"ing a die. But on the other hand...there were always the people who like BattleTech better than D'n'D....but at least those admitted that the game is only in a small part a RPG.
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@Geoni: you're a fun guy. I like your style.
I'll clear two of your doubts now. The reason I stay is very simple. I'm having fun. I have fun playing in-game, because I've been surrounded with new and old players alike who do a great job at making things interesting and because I've finally began to use the system (quests, etc.) and I'm discovering its integration with my roleplay to be very fun.
I also have fun out here, in the forums. Because I love to disagree with people who think they know it all. It creates interesting, in my point of view, conversations and it allows me to improve my English and my rhetoric. Plus I feel useful as a breath of fresh air for the non-emo people who bother reading.
@Ruya: I do not think the system should be scrapped. That'd be too much effort and I'd have no better model to propose. I just think that quests should be revised, even if slowly, and then changed to fit a less disturbing format. The mechanics itself are good enough, the only thing which is causing some trouble is the content.
@Aiwendil: You're not playing the game, so how can you know of what is happening in PS at the moment?
I've been in some interesting roleplay, filled with consistent intrigue and interaction with other parties.
I've seen members of what I previously called dummy guilds (because they provided us only with characters that work like props) coming up with good attempts of roleplaying, things that can take time and are not in the "kill x, rape b" format. Sure there is the occasional godmodding here and there, but at least they're trying something, instead of soiling this forum with tears.
Every guild leader I've contacted has been more than in the right mood to establish relations, thus creating new material and I have failed to see one single player who isn't willing to have his character consistently take part of whatever there is to take part in. What we're actually missing is creative people, because very few take it upon themselves to create interesting opportunities.
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Then be glad the RP in PS meets your standards Sangwa...but by now it should be clear we have some very different views on what we see as good RP. For me the whole idea of the cooperative Plot Creating thing is already a sign of bad RP. And don't get me wrong...that's only my view. Not wanting to bash the project...it might be very good for the current PS players and help them a lot. Just the whole idea of looking for RP partners and planing plots outside of the game is just...not very tempting. So I better play other games with, in my view, better suited rules for a RP server.
And I think we all tried something...just most of us gave up at some point as there was no sense in trying anymore. And I really hope we all also shed some tears of laughing when reading these forums...
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You're missing the point. You can't talk about current PS standards when you don't actually know it. It's that simple.
In PS you're pretty much reduced to your experience. Just because you haven't found the experience you were looking after, it doesn't mean other people didn't. So, it's better not to assume you've played with every player out there.
And you miss the point of the Cooperative Plot Creation. You're not meant to roleplay outside PS with it. It's not my fault the website planner likes D&D. You're meant to play inside. The objective is facilitating the creation of material (plots) to use in-game, through communication between players. It's exactly to fix the main thing that's lacking: player input.
In fact, many players blame the GMs and Developers for lack of roleplay, but nowadays it's mostly the players' fault. That and the lack of a general plot, but that's to be discussed some other day.
Instead of coming up with consistent stuff (like I mean for people to come up through the cooperative plot creation) people come up with dumb stuff, like asking for new NPCs and quests. That's not how you run a plot in a MMORPG. Imagine if everyone asks GMs for this and that, and the other thing. It'd be easier to make everyone a Game Master.
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It's not my fault the website planner likes D&D.
It most certainly is not!
For that one can only blame Talad, PS game mechanics and the entire dev team. ;D
(For those without a sense of humour that is a joke)
My D&D side project idea was put away. Sangwa revealed it as a distraction to the true purpose of the site. His wisdom leaves me awe struck.
- Nova
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I think one reoccurring theme with the harshest critics who post here is that they see one post, or one thread here in the forum and they assume that this thread represents the general situation going on in the game. Like yesterday Aiwendil tried to downplay the RP happening at the Stonehead based on an older thread of one thing that has happened there. This is totally unfair but since it has been a long time since Aiwendil has actually been in game he has no first hand experience of what is actually going on at the Stonehead these days so using a post that supports his position is the best he can do.
For the record yes there are a lot of good RP'ers who are coming into the Stonehead on a regular basis and using the place as part of their RP. Since the Stonehead is open to everyone then there is also the occasional times when less than stellar RP'ers are in the Stonehead as well. Remember the Stonehead was never intended to be an elitist RP'er hangout, it was intended to be a place where people could come and RP in a judgement free environment. This means that the type of RP going on there isn't always going to suit the tastes of everyone who goes there but who really cases. As long as everyone who goes there is making the attempt to RP in the first place, and improve their RP in general then it is all good as far as I'm concerned. The fact that more people are using the Stonehead these days and making it a part of their RP is the important thing. As long as people are there RP'ing I'll do my best to avoid knocking them because I may not like the content of their RP.
But again the main point of this post should be that just because you see a thread or two in these forums about a type of RP or style that you don't like doesn't mean that this is happening constantly all over the server.If you are not playing the game, or even if you are playing but you only play with a small group of people all the time, I can't see how you can even pretend to know what is actually going on in the game.
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Ah, if only Nova's obsessive little opinions were really important enough to bother wasting more time with. Think what you want you fixated jerk, I dare you to do better with a player run area but I doubt you have the capability to do more than program and complain about me like a jaded girlfriend... we are so over. ;)
Two, anyone that has played this game for long enough knows as well as anyone that some patterns are persistent.... It's not that there is never any good RP around, but even if the forums aren't a particular good representation of RP in game, there has been a general decline. That's how you get this problem:
Players should realize that choosing to play a certain player type may provide certain limitations, if the player is going to stay IC all the time. For example if you choose to play an evil character, maybe a black flame type, then you should realize that it would be OOC to do a bunch of goodie goodie type quests just to get a certain item. After all there are a lot of things I want in RL but can't get because I can't or chose not to what is required to get those items.
I'd normally bother explaining nicely why this is the case and the better fix than plugging ones ears and going "Lalala..." but its not worth it as it normally falls on deaf ears anyway. ;D Hehe... ok fine, you win... everything is peachy keen and all is great and there are nothing but the greatest RPs in the world in game. ;D Have fun with that. I will be off getting on with my life and laughing in a corner should it fall flat. I tried to help for the longest but I'm through, I'll leave the battles to the next generation.
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It's good that you think you know better than everyone, specially when you're talking about things you no longer know of (in-game situation), I'm sure it'll lead you places in life with the way things are.
But in your presumptuous post there's actually some good news.
o/
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And you presume to know more with only just having just returned... I was in recently enough and was battling to support RP for 3 years straight. I've only been gone a few months, you were gone for at least those same 3 years.
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I have the experience of the last 3 months and it's at the end of month 3 that the present is. So I know about the present. And that's what I'm saying. It does seem like something one should presume. Are you following me this far?
Good. So I'll agree with you if you talk about how things were when you played 5 months ago, but I'll be certain to know better than you how things are right now. Maybe... Maybe I should make it clearer: Time does walk slowly around here, but it doesn't actually stop. Got it? If you want to deny me, play for a while and in 1 month, after you've gathered enough data, tell me what you think. If you don't think it's worth it, then don't waste time about talking of what you don't know.
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OK, then explain why generations of RPers seem to have the same complaints if things change so radically in the course of a few months?
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I'll argue from my subjective experience against your subjective experience and we'll try to come to an objective resolution. Not.
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Even subjective topics can carry a certain amount of consistent behavior. Discounting completely that which is subjective is throwing out the baby with the bath water.
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Exactly Verden. RP experience depends on the actual time and place you are. It's just hard for some people to accept they don't know everything and so when their experience changes, it's because everything else did.
For me, as long as there is RP, I'm pretty glad. Means I have a chance to come in and have some fun without listening to people saying "Lol, did u c teh new spidrlzlzl?"
Did this thing have an actual top-- Oh, right. I remember now.
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If that were the case, RP communities wouldn't normally be such closed communities. For people with more than mediocre standards, they realize that it is possible to completely muck it up. But I guess that just proves that "RP" way back when really was a mess and largely OOC. ::| Good for you, thought, as anything done now must be an improvement.
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What can I say. I don't presume to roleplay better than everyone. I just follow the rules and have fun. Good luck in your new MMORPG.
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Good luck in your new MMORPG.
Mabinogi is awesome. It's just a shame that it has all sorts of mechanics that would be better suited for an RP game but very few RPers. It's weird, Mabinogi is like a RP game full of PLers and PS is like a PL game with RPers... ::|
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go and play that awesome game and convince everyone that they're wrong and make them RPers then?
or just find a new game if you like neihter...
anyway, what's fun to see is that threads like this are perfectly interchangeable with those of forums associated with any RP servers of other games like ultima online or the like that's around for a few years :detective:
anyway... just leave those that enjoy the game be and discuss the oh-so-poor state of the art with someone who still manages to listen to you Illysia ;) I'm not running around claiming how horribly WoW is done, either, nor do I run around shouting dating-sim games are stupid just cause I don't like them myself :sweatdrop:
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Nah, unlike PS, Mabinogi is developed enough to where there is plenty to do without having to convert people to RP so that you can have fun. The only reason I'm not playing is simply because my laptop that could handle it died. Otherwise I would have been in game far more than here. Shame too as they had a new release and I finally got a mount. :S
anyway, what's fun to see is that threads like this are perfectly interchangeable with those of forums associated with any RP servers of other games like ultima online or the like that's around for a few years :detective:
Oh no... but that can't be. PS's malcontents are the worse people in the world and any real player doesn't ever complain about the work of a dev team. That's why so much work is being done to get those kinds of players from other MMOs into PS... /sarcasm
However, just admit it... your biggest problem is just that I refuse to back down and you can't find a better, reasoned out argument than "you're just mean...". Otherwise personal attacks, trying to dismiss me, trying to pretend like I'm constantly mean, etc... wouldn't be necessary. It's great to know people that try and above it all so obviously aren't and can't help it (especially when they have to band together just to manage an attempt a making enough of a point). <3 Remember kids, arguments ad hominem are for when you have nothing else to say. ;) But, if you insist on trying to make me abandon my opinion without a better reason than "I choose to ignore it so you must too", then sure.. I'm going to hang around and defend it. I might make a spark or two but it's usually other people pouring the gasoline. Case in point, I don't argue with everyone that disagrees with me.
anyway... just leave those that enjoy the game be and discuss the oh-so-poor state of the art with someone who still manages to listen to you Illysia ;) I'm not running around claiming how horribly WoW is done, either, nor do I run around shouting dating-sim games are stupid just cause I don't like them myself :sweatdrop:
I do let people enjoy the game. That's why I left. ;D I generally don't start long drawn out arguments; I simply refuse to back down just because someone throws a long paragraph at me. ;) If you really don't want paragraphs of refuting stuff then those that disagree with me but have to make a fuss can practice what they preach and learn to accept a different opinion. And of course you don't do that stuff Rly. Keeping PS from collapsing under its own weight is full time work, you don't have time for anything else.
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sorry, but repeating the same old stuff over and over again in any place that possibly could lead somehow to that direction isn't arguing, it's trolling ;)
just read your posts lately, you're perfectly into an "I know best" person that has to show it everywhere possible.
Not that you'd be the frist one, but it's sad to see that someone that *can* be reasonable simply refuses to be.
I don't pretend you're mean, just that you do (imo intentionally) troll for quite a while now even though you know better (and most amusingly still insist you're not trolling even though you admit it in some way).
But honestly: AiwendilH is a lot better in derailing threads and arguing for arguing's sake, so don't try to steal his role. (nobody likes lame copies :P)
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I have the experience of the last 3 months and it's at the end of month 3 that the present is. So I know about the present. And that's what I'm saying. It does seem like something one should presume. Are you following me this far?
Oh..I am sure it only got better in those three months...
(http://62.173.168.9/onlinemonth.png)
Maybe update the graphs then again...so that it's visible how much better PS got again and how much more player it attracts now.
And wondering a bit about Elady....not the first time it became clear that we both have completely different view about RP. So I'm not allowed to dislike her (and most GM's) preferred RP style because she says it's great?
And thx RlxDontKnow..I try my best. The only thing I can do for innocent people coming here...protecting them from playing the game. ;)
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Yes Aiwendil we do have completely different views on RP. I seem to be much more open and accepting of a wide variety of RP styles and efforts people to RP. We have never had a ban list of people not allowed in the Stonehead, unlike the RCD when you were in charge of it. Note that the whole thing with Masters of Move was a RP thing that has come an gone. I have never said I will not participate in the events of anyone just because OMG the player had limited time to organize their event and committed the sin of actually planning some parts of their events via tells instead of meeting everyone face to face and "properly" RP the whole planning process. And I have never gotten all bent out of shape after an event I have put on just because the people attending the event didn't participate in the way I planned/wanted them to.
So yeah we do have differnt opinions about RP vive la difference
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@Rlydontknow:
Why wouldn't I clap my hands the same way to the same old tune? Nothing has changed around here... I don't say I know best, I'm just the last person saying "you all should have learned by now". I can't it help if, unlike some, I don't need a chorus behind me to make a point. I'm afraid my backup singers gave up on the team and the game already. ;) Which, by the way, is a shame and unnecessary as you can't call all of those people noobs that whine about not having mounts served up to them on a silver platter. And I'm not just referring to you Rly, I know you don't pretend that I am mean, but some do and my posts would be even longer if I bothered to call everyone out individually.
Reasonable you say? I did reasonable and there is even less to show for that as everything went backwards. The people that I was reasonable with have largely given up or left without a trace, and the game is in worse shape. Reasonable is for people that bother to pay attention long enough to get something out of it. There is too much plugging of ears and singing "lalala" for reasonable to be of any help. And as for trolling, I might make a stink from time to time but true trolling? Nah, that is for people that don't feel like bringing up the actual issues, they just feel like derailing and arguing the irrelevant points just to be funny. I personally am of the opinion it stings more if you stick with the relevant stuff. It bounces around in the back of people's minds longer. ;)
Also, on the knowing better thing. I may not know better on some topics, but I can tell you for a fact that when people listened to and worked with me and people with similar views, progress was made... And certainly made quicker than during the "lalala" sessions. It's not that you have to listen to everyone all the time, but too often there is a problem with shoving a circle peg in a square slot in the vain hope that through coincidence or sheer force of willpower, it will go through and heaven forbid someone tries to suggest using the circle slot. It's always been the case that when the ear plugging and singing start that stuff goes backwards, and there is proof in PS's usual cycle (which seems to be a quicker spiral down as of late- check volunteer numbers if nothing else, although aiwe's graph is pretty good... looking a bit bare there.. wait, it dipped in summer even? ???).
For what it is worth, Aiwe fell off the being nice wagon before I did, and to his credit still tried to keep me from falling as well. But, interacting with the current team unfortunately was the straw that broke the camel's back... well ok... It was Xoel that truly had me hanging by a thread to my last bit of niceness and then Talad finished off the rest (and others pitching in their little bit). It's not that I hate devs or that I don't have regard for any of the devs still around, but I'm not handing out accolades for struggling through self made problems. That's like giving a gold medal to the guy that lost the race, but at least kept trying even though he had put lead weights on his feet and ignore the people that told him to take them off...
And as for a lame copy... nah, I'm more subversive. :devil:
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=281ax7Ovlsg
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It just dawned on my how ironic it is that this thread is called I need help as Illysia is demonstrating in this very thread how she, in fact, does need help. She goes far beyond someone simply put off on a game. It has become something that deserves a paper by some Master's Student in Phycology. Instead of letting folks have whatever enjoyment they may find in PS she spews her venomous and bitter babble over and over and over and over again like an obsessed hag.
At least things are placed in a nice little pile in her profile for some student to sort through. They will find all the classic symptoms of madness to put a paper together. Delusions of Grandeur, feelings of persecution, the feeling that no one understands her and that only she knows what style of entertainment is good for all... you name it and it is in her pile of trepor dung.
My hat goes off to those in control around here to allow her to, hopefully, vent enough to gain some sanity in her life; so that this sad obsession may at last pass like some bad case of gas. If it were my decision she would have been site banned many volumes of posts ago.
Until either happens, my approach is to check out her first paragraph or so of a post to see the present state of her madness and then skip to the next post. In all honesty my feelings for her are great sorrow for her state of mind. No one is doing her any favour to demean herself further.
Hopefully she will find a place in her new anime world and her faithful unicorn will calm her and help her forget the horrible community she has left behind. We, then, can breath a sigh of relief and return to constructive discussions on any and all threads of this forum.
Would a poll for banning her be a fair approach for all; including her? If the majority of forum readers find her obsessive beating of a dead horse simply disruptive; would it not make sense to simply shut her down and let her find some other target to unleash her madness on?
- Nova
[ Edit : wrong links ]
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Go for it Nova, but you are in no position to comment on obsession as I think every other post from you is about me hun. ;)
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Go for it Nova, but you are in no position to comment on obsession as I think every other post from you is about me hun. ;)
Delusions of Grandeur? ;D
- Nova
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Nah, you just aren't worth getting worked up for. ;D
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iSws7LyRY2g
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really weird there with the metaphors Neko. ::|
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oh, i was merely putting what you apparently feel the relationship between you and this game to be in simple verse.
that way it will save you typing a few thousand words every few hours.
as moderator, its my job to help forum users when i can after all. ;-)
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Well maybe for Nova as I don't have that many words for him. My long posts are for people worth not being completely discounted. Sorry for not giving you more words Neko but there is simply nothing more to say. ;)
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Oh...we had a ban list of "people" in the Den? Depends on how you define people. Did we disallow certain players in it? Of course not! Did we try to RP and act out the consequences of murder attempts on the RCO staff by trying to keep some characters out of the Den? Ahm...I wouldn't feel like I am RPing if I don't do this. But obviously consequent RP is something not wanted in PS. That list of unwanted persons lasted for exactly two days...then GMs told us we are not allowed to do this. Only one of the 5 persons on that list, namely Semutara, did not try to kill one of the RCO staff in the past..but we had some other RP reasons to put her on the list...like trying to annoy her boyfriend a bit ;). And only one player had a problem with being on that list...so ran to the GMs about it. I really doubt Allola or Semutara would have complained....it's more likely they had complained for not being on the list.
And yes..it's true that i wasn't very keen on doing any more events with you involved after seeing how you organized them. At least I realized this way how you could say that organizing a picnic is not much work and can be done in half a day. Of course it isn't if you just rely on tells and OOC posts here in the forums to get people there. Great RP \o/.
And I better don't start about GM events...I know them from player and GM side...and know that they are not the right place for me to be. ;) Even more when the current GM leader was the opinion that it's fine to hand out invitations for GM events to a few, selected players.
And no idea why I explain you this all...I already know you will never get it and keep on thinking you are so tolerant and only because of this are such a great RPer. But you are in a good company there..seeing that the PS team wasn't even able to ever make rules to disallow godmodding.
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Neko- your you tubes are the BEST!
I have a new obsession... :woot:
Roled
the staggering satirist
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Let's see you asked to be given a guild house to run a vaudeville theater open to the public and then after you get the house try to exclude people from the place before they have ever stepped into the house. Funny I don't remember in your presentation to get the house you ever mentioning that you would want to exclude people who have had issues with your staff in the past. Maybe if you had mentioned this little fact up front in your presentation it might have affected if you had gotten the house in the first place. I can see excluding people who had demonstrated they could only be disruptive in the den but not before giving them a chance to behave in there.
As best as I can remember I never asked for help form you or the den in doing any events I have done. I was talking about the complaints about one of the events at the Explorer outpost. You were unhappy about because Mordaan used tells to help organize it. The Picnic you talk about took about 10 minutes to put together and was done quickly because the NPC server had been down already for several days and Lilura and I wanted to give people something todo while the NPC server was down. If we had known that the NPC server was going to be down for another week or so we would have taken more time to advertise the picnic. As it was we had no idea when the server would be back up so we did a rush job of advertising it since the picnic happened about 18 hours after the idea had come up. And look back it was Lilura who posted in the forum about the picnic. Yes I did send a couple of friend tells about the event but that is the same as I had gotten from several " Great" RP'erd in the past.
And for the record I don't consider myself to be a great RP'er because I am so tolerant. In fact I consider myself to be a fair to good RP'er with a lot to learn from those I consider to be very good RP'ers. I came into Planeshift with little RP experience and a lot to learn. Thankfully most people in the game were tolerant of the mistakes a rookie to RP can make and helped me learn to become a better player. I want to see this tradition continue so that others who are new to RP can come in a learn, even if they make mistakes along the way. From what I have seen players do a pretty good job dealing with the occasional godmod that happens. If the players themselves can deal with this type of thing I think that is the best solution.
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Requirements:
A guild house with enough room to hold at least 30 visitors. A stable [not removable] stage should be provided as well. The Octarchy might help to attach any decoration and test the security to prevent citizens from suffering any harm [fix decoration items].
The Red Crystal Organisation will have the right to remove any disturbing visitors and hand them to the Hydlaa guards [A house near a NPC guard would nice for this to give us some RP options to deal with trouble-makers]
So yes...it wasn't directly mentioned at the presentation...only like this: (from here (http://www.hydlaaplaza.com/smf/index.php?topic=34557.0))
...
Aiwendil takes a short look at her notes before raising her voice again "This vaudeville could be used for various events. We already have plenty of ideas of what could be done there like Theater plays, Story and Poetry contests, Music events, Fashion Parades and a lot more. But of course the vaudeville would be open for events of others too. In this case the Red Crystal Organization will provide the stage and the security personnel for those performances. And, if wished, we would also care for the physical well-being of the audience by serving food and drinks."
...
Amidison nods, shifting her gaze to Orgonwukh, "You mentioned providing secuirty, as you know the safety of our people is important. You have the resources to do this?"
Orgonwukh grunts at the poke and sniggers
Orgonwukh nods to Amidison and takees a breath
Orgonwukh says: As you know, I am the best fighter of Yliakum...
Iragdun raises an eyebrow
Orgonwukh says: And of course I use my knowledge in this area to train security personnel. No worries here.
Orgonwukh adds "Ma'am."
Aiwendil nods "We have some people who will do an excelent job with this. The sercurety of the guests is indeed a very important task. But it's also important to protect the artists if a guest isn't pleased with their preformance"
Datal nods in agreement
Amidison chuckles softly. "Of course."
But it was clearly said in the written proposal we handed to the GM team. (And just to prevent any confusion...the proposal was handed to the GM team before I became a GM. It was approved in the short time I was in the GM team but I never talked about it to other GMs at all. I didn't know we got the vaudeville until the party in the Octarchal Residence where it was revealed to the public. But in a way it had something to do with me leaving the GM team again...it took a lot of my time and I couldn't stand that I should have used my influence as RCD leader to make sure it is run as the PS team wanted it. For that I was not nominated by the outlaws to run the Den.)
And had the explorer's event in mind also...before that we always tried to included the SH as best as possible. Just afterwards I/we thought it's better to leave everyone to their own style of RPing and stop trying to find way how to make those styles compatible. Pretty hard to explain why half of the characters know already what is going on because of some OOC posts and tells and the other half had no clue as the chars didn't speak with each other. So in my view it was much better to not mix those styles..after all it was meant to be fun for everyone.
Oh..and i remember you starting to play Elady. Was a lot of fun to play with you back then. Sure..a lot of PLing at the furnace but you always tried to include it in your RPs and still stayed open for some chatting while working. So it was a bit sad for me to see the longer you played the less you seemed to be up for "wasting" time like this. A ritual for people wanting to join DOX? Not needed...let them first join and then maybe do the ritual some time later...if at all. DOX being pacifists? Nah...that's ignoring game fighting mechanics. And of course nothing is wrong with that in general. Everyone is free to play as they want. But so are others who think this isn't the best way of playing for them...and find it hard to believe that RP got so much better only because someone says so who never understood their motivations.
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Requirements:
A guild house with enough room to hold at least 30 visitors. A stable [not removable] stage should be provided as well. The Octarchy might help to attach any decoration and test the security to prevent citizens from suffering any harm [fix decoration items].
The Red Crystal Organisation will have the right to remove any disturbing visitors and hand them to the Hydlaa guards [A house near a NPC guard would nice for this to give us some RP options to deal with trouble-makers]
So yes...it wasn't directly mentioned at the presentation...only like this: (from here (http://www.hydlaaplaza.com/smf/index.php?topic=34557.0))
...
Aiwendil takes a short look at her notes before raising her voice again "This vaudeville could be used for various events. We already have plenty of ideas of what could be done there like Theater plays, Story and Poetry contests, Music events, Fashion Parades and a lot more. But of course the vaudeville would be open for events of others too. In this case the Red Crystal Organization will provide the stage and the security personnel for those performances. And, if wished, we would also care for the physical well-being of the audience by serving food and drinks."
...
Amidison nods, shifting her gaze to Orgonwukh, "You mentioned providing secuirty, as you know the safety of our people is important. You have the resources to do this?"
Orgonwukh grunts at the poke and sniggers
Orgonwukh nods to Amidison and takees a breath
Orgonwukh says: As you know, I am the best fighter of Yliakum...
Iragdun raises an eyebrow
Orgonwukh says: And of course I use my knowledge in this area to train security personnel. No worries here.
Orgonwukh adds "Ma'am."
Aiwendil nods "We have some people who will do an excelent job with this. The sercurety of the guests is indeed a very important task. But it's also important to protect the artists if a guest isn't pleased with their preformance"
Datal nods in agreement
Amidison chuckles softly. "Of course."
But it was clearly said in the written proposal we handed to the GM team. (And just to prevent any confusion...the proposal was handed to the GM team before I became a GM. It was approved in the short time I was in the GM team but I never talked about it to other GMs at all. I didn't know we got the vaudeville until the party in the Octarchal Residence where it was revealed to the public. But in a way it had something to do with me leaving the GM team again...it took a lot of my time and I couldn't stand that I should have used my influence as RCD leader to make sure it is run as the PS team wanted it. For that I was not nominated by the outlaws to run the Den.)
And had the explorer's event in mind also...before that we always tried to included the SH as best as possible. Just afterwards I/we thought it's better to leave everyone to their own style of RPing and stop trying to find way how to make those styles compatible. Pretty hard to explain why half of the characters know already what is going on because of some OOC posts and tells and the other half had no clue as the chars didn't speak with each other. So in my view it was much better to not mix those styles..after all it was meant to be fun for everyone.
Oh..and i remember you starting to play Elady. Was a lot of fun to play with you back then. Sure..a lot of PLing at the furnace but you always tried to include it in your RPs and still stayed open for some chatting while working. So it was a bit sad for me to see the longer you played the less you seemed to be up for "wasting" time like this. A ritual for people wanting to join DOX? Not needed...let them first join and then maybe do the ritual some time later...if at all. DOX being pacifists? Nah...that's ignoring game fighting mechanics. And of course nothing is wrong with that in general. Everyone is free to play as they want. But so are others who think this isn't the best way of playing for them...and find it hard to believe that RP got so much better only because someone says so who never understood their motivations.
tl;dr
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Aiwendil and Illysia are just both sad because their friends left and there aren't as many people around (which I blame mostly to the increase in PC requirements). Let's all take a second to mourn their grief and move on.
Unless you like to provoke ridiculous people that take upon themselves vendettas against a game. If that's the case, join me in this battle against these blue, deaf Trolls!
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And sangwa is just upset that we aren't taking his ego into account and putting our attention on him. We have been around here doing our bit (good and bad) since before he decided to return and we didn't see fit to kowtow just because the former emperor spoke. ;D
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True, that was kind of upsetting. I hadn't realized it before though... That's just one more reason to join the crusade!
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Not that it is important but as best I can remember it was others on DOX who suggested or wanted to let X into the guild now and we can do the oathing ceremony later. When you are in a guild run by a majority vote not much you can do if you are out voted by the others to allow something like this. One of the major reasons I left DOX was the changes going on in the guild, having a member with weapons drawn at an oathing ceremony in the garden, weapons drawn in the guild house, fighting in the guild house, even a killing in the guild house. None of this would have happened in my opinion back with the original group of DOX.
But as said above I'll play and enjoy the game as I see fit and let others do the same, just as long as others don't try to dictate to me how I should be enjoying the game.
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Sorry Elady, but I have to pick on you a bit here as technically this counts as distancing yourself from people based on differences on what the appropriate RP should be. Since they weren't godmodding or speaking in leet... I seem to remember people saying how one should just go with it.... ;) Not that I think that that plot made any sense whatsoever, and for the record, I thought that whole thing was forced through rather than there being a good reason for it to have developed the way it did. I'm just saying that these things to present rather large problems if the RP conflicts heavily with what one perceive to be the more reasonable response. Also one person's perception may differ so it can't be definitively said that one person is completely overreacting if they choose to not go along with the RP and technically that's all that was done in a few cases at the den. We chose to risk it at the Stonehead but not everybody can be as patient as we were.
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This thread shows how people cannot stay on topic. Catlemur asked for how to create events in game, and people started to complain about GMs and devs ? I'm moving this thread to the complaint department, please Catlemur start a new thread, so we can answer to that in a civil way.
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as far as the specific GM sticky that was brought up in this thread, I will talk over with the team to see if they would like to append it to better word it with the examples Sarv gave earlier in the thread.
this comment was lost in the thread, but i figure it'd still make a comment and say that i did work with the GM team, and a new version was made: http://www.hydlaaplaza.com/smf/index.php?topic=37217.0
it even now comes with better formatting!