PlaneShift
Support => Complaint Department => Topic started by: Illysia on November 30, 2010, 06:33:37 pm
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hehe... funny how without the usuals complaining about the same old problems over and over, the problems still haven't gone away magically and neither have the complaints. I guess people complaining about the fact that the problems have not been dealt with is not the actual problem. ;D Maybe that's why people kept complaining about them... Ya know Neko, here would be a good place for a split and shame on you Aiwe for potentially derailing with your presence. ;)
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Wow, I read the link you posted and I don't really know what to say. I'm kind of shocked. As I don't know the people involved in this conflict, neither their history, I won't judge anybody here. I only want to say one thing:
This document does huge damage to the Planeshift recruitement. The internet does not forget and everyone who reads that log will think twice about applying for the team. It would be in the best interest of Planeshift to completely open up their development process. As it seems from reading the document, there already is a developer mailing list, but it is closed to the public like the rest of the development process. I think the only way to undo the damage of this document is to open the mailing list to the public and publish all future developer meetings. Otherwise this document will stand on its own for years. It would be in the best interest of PS to prove that this incident was a one time occurance.
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Wow, poor thing... you must be really new to this whole debate if you are shocked and aren't aware that telling the team when they are shooting themselves in the foot is currently considered bashing. Not to mention this kind of stuff has happened enough to where you can't frame dealing with this game (as anything other than a player) as short of being a battle/disaster zone...
Just look at the discussion for the wiki page (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:PlaneShift_(video_game)) for PS... that doesn't even have to do with the development or look at forums in other places like the MMORPG PS forum (http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm/game/30/view/forums/forum/613/General-Discussion.html). Even though the issues and contenders change, it all practically follows the same self destructive template... The best advice for someone that doesn't just shrug that kinda stuff off is just to avoid PS's development problems and enjoy the game the best you can. Trying to help without the "everybody that doesn't say 'everything is great, its just in development' are just whiners," mentality generally won't get you very far. Or worse yet, you end up contributing and then burn out hard and leave.
For what it is worth though, as bad as some of the remaining devs can get, most don't come close to Talad for throwing hissy fits. So, avoiding direct dealings with Talad can buy you some time before burning out should you insist on jumping into the fray. :)
Look what you've gone and got me doing Aiwendil... I told myself I was just going to let people find out for themselves what they are getting themselves into. But since you are nice enough to warn people, now I have to... I can't let you be nicer than me. ;D
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Wow, poor thing... you must be really new to this whole debate if you are shocked and aren't aware that telling the team when they are shooting themselves in the foot is currently considered bashing. Not to mention this kind of stuff has happened enough to where you can't frame dealing with this game (as anything other than a player) as short of being a battle/disaster zone...
Well, I'm used to lots of hot and aggressive debates on open-source mailing list. You can pick pretty much any open-source project i.e. the Linux kernel. From outside this often looks like people absolutely hate each other, but in the end they can still work together because everyone can say what he has to say.
What me kind of shocked was the company-style the project is run. That is something you usually don't see on projects where people donate their spare time to work for free. Of course you have hierarchies and in the end the project/department leader decides how things are done. But at least your a free to speak your mind, even if the decissions is against your proposal in the end. I've never seen someone getting fired from an opensource project. Usually they either leave on their own, because they can no longer work with the other guys or they lack the time to do their work and someone else takes over.
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Well that is one of the unfortunate things that makes PS unique... working together always works for awhile and then falls apart for various reasons, less so in recent times. However, that corporate type culture part of the problem. It is quite easy to get the impression that you are just underpaid (by that I mean not at all :p ) labor rather than a contributor. However, if you can code it seems to be a bit better as then you are more needed and thus more likely to be treated at least somewhat considerately.
But one way or the other, free speech that isn't just praise gets either ignored or struck down. It wasn't always quite this bad though... At least not in my opinion. :/ But there were more devs with a wider range of perspectives in the past. Eliseth does seem to be pretty open though, so you might just want to stick with the skunkworks if you'd like to attempt helping.
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It is quite easy to get the impression that you are just underpaid (by that I mean not at all :p ) labor rather than a contributor.
These are the words I was looking for. The document reads as if people are treated as laborers instead of contributers. I think that's not acceptable for an open-source project.
Eliseth does seem to be pretty open though, so you might just want to stick with the skunkworks if you'd like to attempt helping.
No, for the moment I will hold back. I would like to read for myself how the daily routine is handled. If they ever open up to the public, I will reconsider. I woud prefer working on some graphics as I wanted to get into blender for a long time. My daily job is C++ development and I'm not sure if I want the same coporate style routine in my spare time. Let's see how the skunk project works out.
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Getoran you are right, and the document of Illysia is just a rant of non sense, and has been deleted now. I'm open to listen to complains, but things went too far in that post, and really it's not acceptable considering the fact Illysia never been part of the development team, so has no idea of how things work inside the team.
If you are interested in development, get in contact with the developers and be careful to distinguish reality from trolling in here.
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Burn all the evidence! ;)
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I just took some time to read the start of this thread and it's just awful how Illysia can say such things, and it's totally unrespectful of what we are doing in here.
I would like to remember that we are providing a FREE service and a FREE game, which required thousands of hours of work, which is provided as it is and it's under development. If you want to see a better PlaneShift then contribute to its development.
Inventing stories about "how evil are the devs who don't listen to us" is just ridiculous, considering we are the most accessible game development team I know of.
I hope people like that will never play our game, because we are not making it for them.
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At first the idea of contributing to PS enticed me, truly. This game holds countless special memories, many that I still appreciate.
So I started asking around, in hope of getting some insight in what the team is like. I came to have a discussion with Eckar shortly after, who told me of the dictatorial and spiteful bullying that took place within the team, by Weltall especially if I am not mistaken. That was long ago however, and it soon came to be forgotten.
Slightly discouraged, although still inspired to apply I began to search for new insight. This was around the time the previously posted [now deleted] pastebin surfaced, and upon reading it I realized that what transpires behind closed doors was not as productive and motivating as I had at first hoped. Nor was it as spiteful as Eckar had described, because the only thing I saw was a project spiraling out of control, with a distinct lacking of maturity and respect. Traits who had seemingly been manifested by no other than the project leader himself.
In truth, I don't see how anyone would contribute to such a train wreck.
Trolling and lurking aside, take the time to read the logs Talad, and realize that you where wrong. Acceptance is the first step in a process of much needed change, is it not?
Best of luck in future endevours.
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At first the idea of contributing to PS enticed me, truly. This game holds countless special memories, many that I still appreciate.
So I started asking around, in hope of getting some insight in what the team is like. I came to have a discussion with Eckar shortly after, who told me of the dictatorial and spiteful bullying that took place within the team, by Weltall especially if I am not mistaken. That was long ago however, and it soon came to be forgotten.
Slightly discouraged, although still inspired to apply I began to search for new insight. This was around the time the previously posted [now deleted] pastebin surfaced, and upon reading it I realized that what transpires behind closed doors was not as productive and motivating as I had at first hoped. Nor was it as spiteful as Eckar had described, because the only thing I saw was a project spiraling out of control, with a distinct lacking of maturity and respect. Traits who had seemingly been manifested by no other than the project leader himself.
In truth, I don't see how anyone would contribute to such a train wreck.
Trolling and lurking aside, take the time to read the logs Talad, and realize that you where wrong. Acceptance is the first step in a process of much needed change, is it not?
Best of luck in future endevours.
eckar? ok i'm quite tired of this and i'll tell you some things about this "eckar".
1) this "nice person" has been making people go away from the game due to her problems i can list people like vialint and lelarar. these people where being annoyed even in rl due to her behaviour. This great person even made velatrius create all the resources for her guild (sites, etc) and actually have him do things he didn't want to do against his friends. and what happened 6 months later? you can't stay enough with me so you can't lead this guild. and the day after while he was offline he was kicked out. Yeah great person
2) she put in a bad situation a gm like tazen which i think a lot of people liked here while he was around.
3) she started putting around voices i was telling the gm to ignore her which is just a lie. If she comes at the end of an event she won't get attention because it's too late and the scope is just the gm prizes at that point. Except that, which was the sanatorium introduction event, and she had no right at that point to be in the event i don't think nothing else could happen.
4) she didn't even have the decency to keep a promise.
so really get your facts before acclaiming someone as a victim because she looked always a victim only at the end you end up as a victim if you are her target. it happened 4 times at least while she was in game.
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Go do something productive and develop something that isn't your putrid smelling opinion, Weltall. Saying these things directly about somebody who played this game and left it on their own free will doesn't deserve to be indirectly harassed like this. The things you say, like this for a good example, only cause you to make yourself look like very unprofessional, and furthermore, personal attacks against another person makes you look like...um...what's the word for it...a troll! There are threads like this that certain members of the team do not like because they temporarily pull the masks off the PS team to reveal true faces. Some don't even take the precaution of wearing a mask. *cough*. Yes, but of course there are those great almighty beings of the forum that have the power to delete posts. They delete things that are critiquing the team and its head, and there are some that do NOT like that. They go, and they burn all the evidence. Heck, I wouldn't be surprised to see myself burned along with a few others that weren't and aren't afraid to speak up.
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my putrid opinion? just the fact you know this says the last point is the truth. If it's an opinion the fact she put around private informations about me while i didn't i don't know what can be called truth at this point. She left the game of her own? finally after giving issues in the life of people. sure you are free to think i'm lying but then don't come crying if you get burnt. if you do personal attack which have nothing to do with the game i personally defend period.
i was so much bullying her that i've not deleted her char, not removed values from it,not banned her and even not followed the gm during that period. Afaik most of them knew nothing about this.
Ah geoni thanks i do many productive things which this forums detract me from.
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Geoni, your insults are unacceptable, you are banned from this forums and the game. Weltall is an honorable member of our team, who works harder on PS that you may even imagine. He is the reason why 0.5 exists and your comments are just unrespectful of his work. I see you don't like the game, so stay away from it.
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There has always been an interesting underworld of internal politics about the game though, spanning from dev team to power levelers and all those inbetween
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So I started asking around, in hope of getting some insight in what the team is like. I came to have a discussion with Eckar shortly after, who told me of the dictatorial and spiteful bullying that took place within the team, by Weltall especially if I am not mistaken. That was long ago however, and it soon came to be forgotten.
For starters, what the hell does Eckar know about the development team and the going on that takes place when she is not even a developer in the first place. Weltall being dictator and spiteful, that got to be a bloody joke. He is the one that at least does his best to prevent major screw ups taking place by other developers, with main culprit being Talad himself. If you want to know who the dictator is, it is simply Talad himself. He is also the sole reason I not contributing to the project. I just end up in many fights with him when he fails in the common sense department, due to dictator style corporate leadership he uses.
Eckar is the idiot here, the mentally screwed up player. Someone, one should never take seriously, someone who actually knows nothing much about PS.
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Go do something productive and develop something that isn't your putrid smelling opinion, Weltall. Saying these things directly about somebody who played this game and left it on their own free will doesn't deserve to be indirectly harassed like this. The things you say, like this for a good example, only cause you to make yourself look like very unprofessional, and furthermore, personal attacks against another person makes you look like...um...what's the word for it...a troll!
Geoni, you must be on serious drugs, to come with such crap. I was there to witness plenty of the trouble making caused by Eckar. She is a bad player, and very instable in real life. Cause of many good role players from leaving PS due to her real life issues and personality.
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A was stating what I was told, not notions derived from my own perception. I don't know Weltall, so I don't have an opinion on him.
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Talad, I think Getoran raised a very good point in the beginning of the thread:
There are probably good reasons speaking for keeping the dev channel/irc dev meetings/discussions/plans/whatever secret, but there are some serious drawbacks:
- Secrecy makes you suspicious. People are paranoid, they will always assume the worst. Information is the best weapon against conspiracy theories.
- Secrecy also creates a big bias in the information that is "leaked" to the public. And there will always be leaks. But nobody will ever pastebin the logs of a quiet productive meeting. The only thing we (the players) ever read are the occasions when someone lost their cool. So, according to the human nature, many will assume that it always goes like this, no matter how much it is denied.
In my opinion, some kind of public access to the dev meetings would be a good counter attack and to provide a more realistic picture of the development process. Maybe log the irc channel or allow muted spectators in there. This would hopefully create a mass of positive and neutral information to balance the few extremely negative examples you can find right now by using a search engine.
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Minks, I think yours is a very interesting comment. Finally some constructive feedback!
Surely the issue is that few people can make a lot of noise in forums based on rumors and false information, while we are so focused in working on the game, we just forget to counteract those false rumors.
There are plenty of reasons on not opening our developer channel to public, including the fact we post login, passwords, links to internal material, we discuss about private life events of the devs at times, legal stuff when needed, we decide on new members, we decide on promotions, bans and such. There is a lot which cannot just be pasted and provided as it is, and I guess filtering will be a long process.
On the other side I think more work can be done on posting regular updates of what we do and results of meetings and progress. That's surely a lack we have today, and it's mainly caused by lack of time, not lack of will.
I think we can take two actions here:
1) at the end of every dev meeting (which is held on sunday)we decide which elements are interesting enough to be published and we post this on the dev blogs.
2) we organize an event in game every two weeks to meet the devs, where players can interact with them and ask questions. If possible a transcript of the discussion will be posted on the dev blogs as well.
Both will require time and work, but I think those are valuable efforts.
@Confused: didn't you hear also that I'm willing to take over the world pretty soon, and put everyone into slavery? I think it's a pretty solid information.
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Those are good ideas I think. It would be very nice to see more dev blogs, things like how amendenier is going, or what might be implemented next. Also, try not to care too much when people make these criticisms, because I've found many times that over the internet, something you mean to just state, or say for constructive criticism can be taken the wrong way. But at the same time, people can be simply inconsiderate, so for those people, just try to look at the whole situation here. The devs make this game for us.
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Bear in mind that it takes as much effort more or less to write, illustrate and post updates as it does to do any other work on the project.
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I think we can take two actions here:
1) at the end of every dev meeting (which is held on sunday)we decide which elements are interesting enough to be published and we post this on the dev blogs.
2) we organize an event in game every two weeks to meet the devs, where players can interact with them and ask questions. If possible a transcript of the discussion will be posted on the dev blogs as well.
Both will require time and work, but I think those are valuable efforts.
These sound like good ideas :)
A suggestion on the second one: use gossip channel for the question asking and stay invisible or go on EZPC and find an area like a tavern to meet and discuss/ask questions
I look forward to seeing/reading these!
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2) she put in a bad situation a gm like tazen which i think a lot of people liked here while he was around.
I was around when Taz was around, me and him, were real chums, best buds ya know? Weltall knows im sure :)
Anyways, I have not had any contact with him since 4.03, i cant get him on msn, in game, ect, what 'exactly' did that chick do to tazen? Pm me if you feel like telling me :( otherwise i'll have to keep trying to find out myself..
Geoni, your insults are unacceptable, you are banned from this forums and the game. Weltall is an honorable member of our team, who works harder on PS that you may even imagine. He is the reason why 0.5 exists and your comments are just unrespectful of his work. I see you don't like the game, so stay away from it.
\o/ one less forum troll :thumbup:
no offense geoni >.>
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Just so people know I'm not taking any sides.
... I'm open to listen to complains ...
You are??? How many people have told you to fix up the lack of RP, did you listen to that? No you locked the thread instead... :thumbdown:
Geoni, your insults are unacceptable, you are banned from this forums and the game. Weltall is an honorable member of our team, who works harder on PS that you may even imagine. He is the reason why 0.5 exists and your comments are just unrespectful of his work. I see you don't like the game, so stay away from it.
I believe you just broke a rule in PlaneShift, discussion of bans are not to be discussed in public threads. You make the rules Talad I think you really need to show a good example, and not break them yourself.
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Well, even though he was banned for saying it (or at the very least the way he said it), Geoni is right in that a specific player - particularly one that a) clearly has something deeper than mere internet drama going on in real life, and b) isn't even around to defend herself any more - shouldn't be singled out and have such things revealed about her. It's all ancient history anyway, isn't it? She's the one taking the brunt of the insult here, and probably doesn't even know it.
Picking on your players isn't going to get you more devs, and with behavior like that, leaked IRC logs are hardly necessary to damage the team's reputation.
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Well, even though he was banned for saying it (or at the very least the way he said it), Geoni is right in that a specific player - particularly one that a) clearly has something deeper than mere internet drama going on in real life, and b) isn't even around to defend herself any more - shouldn't be singled out and have such things revealed about her. It's all ancient history anyway, isn't it? She's the one taking the brunt of the insult here, and probably doesn't even know it.
This may sound foolish, but she really did hurt a lot of people. I can name several that she made leave planeshift, more then just Tazen. And made many other people feel incredibly hurt too. I think people should at the very least know what she did. But I don't think we should attack her, because, as you said, she isn't here to defend herself. She doesn't play any longer.
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Picking on your players isn't going to get you more devs, and with behavior like that, leaked IRC logs are hardly necessary to damage the team's reputation.
Personally, and there is an interest to contribute to development if the opportunity arose; it is the present state of the software in production that seems the greatest recommendation to me. That is because when one looks at it through that light one is not just talking about the present active girls and boys of the dev team; but that long vista of those come, gone and still remaining. Considering the time that development has been continuing over the long length of time which it has been doing so... then the continuity is to be marvelled instead of seen as a negative to the developmental team's reputation in any way.
"If you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you,". - Kipling
- Nova
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Well, even though he was banned for saying it (or at the very least the way he said it), Geoni is right in that a specific player - particularly one that a) clearly has something deeper than mere internet drama going on in real life, and b) isn't even around to defend herself any more - shouldn't be singled out and have such things revealed about her. It's all ancient history anyway, isn't it? She's the one taking the brunt of the insult here, and probably doesn't even know it.
Picking on your players isn't going to get you more devs, and with behavior like that, leaked IRC logs are hardly necessary to damage the team's reputation.
Well, when people come into a thread saying "YOU MISTREATED ECKAR" you should expect to get the other side of the story.
Also, in my experience, while Talad can be heavy handed in banning etc., he's usually fairly right in his notions. Take XilliX for example. Recently in a public channel, he mentioned that he had "spent months fighting Talad's influence in PS before being fired". Compare that with Talad's publicised reasons for firing him... and the pent up frustration of not getting any updates from XilliX from the settings team... it put the leaked logs in a whole new light to me. Just remember, no one is an angel, we're all mortal men.
And if Illysia and her friends want to throw stones at leaders, there's only themselves to blame for bans. Being civil with Talad can get you a long way. And don't be afraid to PM him with a good idea rather than simply leaving it in one of the many hundreds of threads.
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And remember, throw a rock at a god, and he will send a flaming boulder back in return ;)
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And remember, throw a rock at a god, and he will send a flaming boulder back in return ;)
Talad the developer director is ICly a priest of Talad not the actual god, I have actually RPed with Talad and have the logs to prove that he says he's a priest of Talad not the god. Just thought you might like to know :D But I kinda get what you're saying.
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And remember, throw a rock at a god, and he will send a flaming boulder back in return ;)
This remind me of what vannaka told me one day...Back in 4.03 when he still played, and one of those week-long server fails was going down, he was on the EZ server, back then, gm's liked to follow one of the 3 people that gets on that server as a kikiri, i never found out who it was...
Anyways, vannaka killed the gm kikiri
He got this message
You have been struck down by lanx, may this be a message to all of you.
Which is the same message you get for spam requests, trading dueling ect XD
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Here's an idea.
Maybe bring back the old system of mechanics.
This was when there were many players in PS.
It seems a lot better to me then the newer system, where most everything is bought for minimal wage.