PlaneShift
Gameplay => General Discussion => Topic started by: Illysia on March 02, 2013, 12:11:28 am
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(Bolded text added for the tl;dr crowd)
It's a shame to see the kiosks in East Hydlaa go unused, so I propose that we turn it into a trading post between markets.
Many quests require items that highly specialized RP characters might not be able to get; for instance, characters that craft instead of hunt can't just go and pick up an ulber fur. Or perhaps a character that hunts doesn't want to go herb hunting for themselves but needs some for some reason. I trust that the quests were done that way to encourage player interaction so we need to take advantage and interact. Not to mention it's a good community building exercise. The "I Am Planeshift" Awards project here (http://www.hydlaaplaza.com/smf/index.php?topic=41115.msg463156#msg463156)shows that the community needs to get better aquainted with who is a part of it.
Since no one wants to hang around forever in the area just waiting for something to happen, I suggest announcing that you have something to trade in Gossip and try and drum up some interest or make specific arrangements with other players to RP trading at the post. But either way, I would ask that you try to do your trading in that area.
I know that going out of your way to do trade and business there is a little irritating and might add delays to what you are trying to do, but please keep in mind that the Devs have gone out of their way to provide these areas for our use so the least we could do is use them. If we don't stretch out of our comfort areas whole areas of the game will continue to look barren and will probably never build up.
As an alternative to East Hydlaa, for more shadier deals, there is Camp Banished which could stand to be used and for those that don't want to get PvPed there is the warehouse district of Ojaveda and Dsar Sarraghi.
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I've used that area in East Hydlaa for RP outside of the fair events several times, but certainly not for trading.
My trader always has, and always will, go about his business very close to Harnquist. That's the place players who are looking for items gravitate toward naturally because it's a central point for crafters and it's where storage is and it only makes sense that a merchant will try to sell where the people are. With that said, it's hard enough to get customers even there (zero buyers the last five times I logged the merchant, even though I've been asked to log him in more by several people) and about 90% of those who do buy something barely RP. Considering I have no need at all for tria, it's only worth my time if buyers make at least some effort to RP, so unless I see them RPing more there is no chance at all that I am going to go out of my way to sell in a place that is much less accessible and which has no storage access.
For me, storage is a big issue. It's also been the reason a few merchant characters I know of stay near Harn, as they are generally not leveled much, if at all, and can't carry many items. I sell from written lists and then pull any ordered items from storage to get around the issue, and as a result of being there I also tend to get tied up in any random passing RP that isn't just about buying from me at the same time, which I see as a huge plus.
If I followed your suggestion I'd lose almost all, if not all, of that random passing RP and would be left with only gossip arranged exchanges which I'd have to walk to and from storage for each time. I just don't find that appealing enough. My merchant can stay exactly where he is, sell, RP with anyone who shows up about anything they like other than buying/selling and be in an ideal place for me to help out anyone new who is a bit lost all at the same time, so I won't be moving him.
With that said, I couldn't agree more regarding shady dealings being best suited for Camp Banished and certain parts of Ojaveda. But the last time I checked, that's where these things were happening anyway.
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Thanks for reading and bothering to respond Taya. But, while I understand your concern, the storage thing does sorta miss what I am going for. I'm not talking about being a walmart in east Hydlaa. I mean literally trading. I have 5 iron and I trade with someone that has 10 rat hides. And the idea is not to stand around for 4 hours just hoping to make tria or bringing 500 books to sell for 30 circles a piece or something else that wouldn't make sense from a logical IC standpoint. I'm trying to get at encouraging RP between a wider pool of a characters. Many people need a reason for their character to interact with others, especially moody or difficult characters. This is one way of doing such things.
The point is not to wait for RP but to create RP.
If a character is weak then they should be selling/trading fewer things at a time. And don't most street vendors have a set amount of supply? How many people in RL set up shop outside of the local metalworking shop and go back in constantly to pull from an unlimited storage supply? What I am hoping to do is to try to encourage people to stop letting mechanics dictate RP, especially when mechanics can fall short of the possibilities and when they can also be changed to accommodate RP. If we all always say, "well I won't do it until someone else does it," who will EVER do it? ;)
The community could use some broadening out in activities and also getting to know other members within it. The Devs really can't do that for us. We have to look for and pursue new avenues on our own.
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No problem. I'm happy to read/comment because I agree with your aims, just not the specific suggestion that East Hydlaa is a good place for trade, mainly because I feel it will limit potential to broaden RP opportunities instead of widen them. The storage point is one small issue, but even if we decide to 100% ignore such mechanical concerns (we can't actually; when it comes to something like trade, mechanics dictate what we can or can't do in almost all cases) there's still the issue of RP realism. There is nothing at all about the area of East Hydlaa that makes it attractive to me when playing a merchant. It's not a case of "I won't do it unless someone else will" but more a case of "there's no incentive for me to do it and it seems like a way to make my RP experience more stunted and artificial."
Now the idea of RPing a street vendor with just a small number of goods is fine, but the reality is we have a small player base and few people RP selling/buying unless they are actually looking to sell/buy. In reality, that street vendor would likely get customers. Here, given the really high supply of items (people ask friends/guild/alliance/random people who just happen to be in the same place as them and generally get the item they want quite quickly) and the relatively low demand for these items, a merchant with a tiny pool of stock to draw from is going to have very few interactions with people unless they also engage in non-merchanting RP which is outside the scope of this idea and something else anyway.
I think if we had the player base, it would be really great to push for a merchanting area and that East Hydlaa would be the ideal choice, but given how frequently it can be difficult to get these kinds of interactions even in more central locations, I just can't see this working - and there really is no escaping the fact that my merchant has been able to get involved with things near Harnquist that I never would have had a way into otherwise, plus it's generally where the newer players who need quest items but don't really have a guild or understand the game too well yet tend to be.
Maybe I'm a minority. I really don't know. But given that I can't often play in the hours that seem to see the most RP and sometimes have real trouble finding RP of any form, I really don't want to agree with the idea that we should spread RP out in ways that don't seem necessary and could often be inconvenient. You shouldn't need to use gossip to set up a trade RP in my opinion for example. Please keep in mind that all this is not to say I avoid these locations in my own RP though, or any others, I just don't want to force myself to use them unless I (from the perspective of whichever character I am playing at the time) have an actual IC reason to go there for something. I'm just missing the reason in this situation though.
Maybe if you feel strongly enough that it would help, you could try interacting with merchant characters IC and somehow give them reasons to move where they operate?
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Summary for the tl;dr people
- East Hydlaa is the loading dock for caravans, an IC mercantile spot
- Mechanics only affect certain aspects absolutely, there is always a work around.
- People have been waiting for the community to rebound on it's own for years, it still isn't a working solution. Time to take action.
- As long as the playerbase puts in only the bare minimum effort it will always get the bare minimum return for it. There will always be a new reason "not to do" and no net change.
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(whoo boy... here we go.)
Actually Taya, I believe your opinion matches the majority, but here is why I disagree with these things. Side note, I hate using gossip as well, but we don't have the playerbase for casual encounters.
One, that area is the loading dock for the merchants coming into the city... There should be people and goods flowing through the area, but it's like the Death Realm right now. The game has very limited man power so waiting for the devs "finish" the area, so it more matches the settings is not helpful. However, there is every IC reason to do mercantile things there.
Also, if no one transacts business there because there is no transacting business there, then it is still a self perpetuating problem. Remember that this game started with just the plaza and crystal hunting, and yet somehow it grew beyond that into the game we have now. Also, people like Kada-el took initiative and eventually it lead to broadening out. If I recall, Kada-El's started as a forum tavern but you can now visit it in game. Sometimes you have to step off the edge first.
Two, mechanics are only a part. You can trade via the window, you can RP a trade that never actually happens, you can put stuff on the ground and let people take things themselves... This is what I mean by don't let the mechanics dictate the RP. The trade window is an aspect not the sum total. Capacity and weight are an imitation of what should be intuitive limitations but often have little practical value due to the fact that you can train to carry at least 300 kilos no matter what race you are which means you will have to impose your own logical IC limits anyway. The items you can trade are endless since you can grab a book and write it up as a placeholder for a new item, and you can technically stand in the middle of the bronze doors and do business since there are no mechanics limitations on where you can sell (some games have that). Imagination is more stifling than any physical place in the game but at the same time it can also produce way more content at a faster clip than the people working on the game can.
Three , people have been RPing in front of Harns for as long as I can remember. But if you'll notice, people are still not broadening out their RP nor is the playerbase growing. As the Planeshift awards project proved, people don't even really know the other characters they are inhabiting the game alongside. Waiting for RP to just pick up/manifest or for the playerbase to just pick up has long been proven not to work. In the past that was just a theory, now it is a game that can't even peak 100 players after a major new release. It's time for the playerbase to take a more active role in building itself up and widening out.
Waiting for the problem to casually fix itself or simply not doing anything different has often been advocated, but I've always seen the best results when people put in solid effort to affect the change. And I don't mean just being the change you want to see. When I threw the Ball, player count hovered around 70 online at a time for three days straight, same with Dev/GM events such as the alchemy events and book fairs, same with other player run events. When I ran the Stonehead, I had people coming out of their way to show up, even newbies, and to be fair, Gug was one of the most desolate places until Amdeneir came through and took top spot.
The common denominator to attracting people was giving them something to do. Most players are not going to hang around for amny length of time if all they can do is grind, idle, and occasionally RP, especially the new ones. There is nothing unique to PS about that, but providing new and regular RP experiences is something that is very unique and engaging. The problem is that it takes effort, and no amount of waiting is going to change that. If the playerbase puts in only the bare minimum effort of to building itself up then it will always get the bare minimum return for it as well.
That being said, there is nothing wrong with Harns, in of itself, but I don't see people setting up more merchant stands or trading posts around it either. In fact the RP there is really pretty hit or miss. Until players stop waiting for the next person to initiate change, there won't be any growth. The community as a whole is already stagnant, so what is needed is a kick start. Its not a matter of preventing further decline, it's bottomed out, now it is a matter of rebuilding.
I know it is inconvenient, but for what it is worth so is making a game that you aren't getting money for, so is taking time from real life to host an event so that others can have fun in game, so is learning to RP when you've never done it before... but look what eventually came from people inconveniencing themselves and doing those things. However, that doesn't mean that you have to do it all the time, just periodically make a conscious effort to go out of your way. You don't blaze new trails by always following the same maps everyone has used.
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Not sure if I really get the kernel of your idea ... like turning the rather passive channel based, half OOC auctions near the plaza (the usual place where at least a few people are available to hear you) into active IC auctions at the east market (to "audibly" shout at passing people if they can provide your needs)?
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Illysia - I don't really understand you.
I disagree with you about East Hydlaa. End of story on that. But there's really no need to type so much about the reason why you think of such things, because I agree with your reason. I'm the only one you've replied to so far, so you also don't need to stress about how hard the devs work. There was a nice chunk of content in that update that was my work and I usually do at least a small bit of work on the game every day. I talk to a couple of the devs quite often, so I know how much time and effort they put in and how little appreciation they sometimes get shown back for it. I am also in game encouraging RP whenever and however I can.
With that said, I fully agree that we need to give people things to do. I have set up everything I can think of at different times from longer RP arcs to simple merchant stands, from encouraging well established guilds to interact with other guilds to hovering at Harn's to help any new players who show up. You don't need me to tell me to step up and do things. I've been doing that since the day I found this game regardless of what others did or what they thought about me.
As for the PS awards idea - great idea, but quite a few people didn't like encouraging it for a few different reasons. I considered nominating several people, but didn't. This isn't about the reasons for that though. Either way, I'd say it's not hugely reflective of the overall community. A lot of the people I am closest to in game don't even check the forums often at all.
Now you seem to be agreeing that player base is an issue, so think of this - More new players would cause players to branch out and occupy more space. No new players with an already low player base will cause them to group into the amount of space that is comfortable for their interactions to be held in. Asking those players to spread themselves out is only going to fill currently inactive areas at the price of other areas of the game because it's still not bringing in new players. It's only asking current ones to change. And this change is a thing that would remove activity from the area where new players start out in game. The game would look even more abandoned to anyone who just joined, decreasing the likelihood of them finding interactions that might make them stick around. A new player doing a quest for the first time and finding out they need a broadsword to give a guard or need a tefu skin isn't going to enjoy being told "come to xxx" more than "come to the place you first started by the blacksmith" or even better "tell me where you are and I will come to you."
So I'm going to repeat what I said earlier, if you want me as a merchant to move where I interact, give me a reason through RP. Feel free to send a groffel and tell me you will pay more than my standard price if I make an effort to move to sell to you. Then I'll come. (And no, I don't really care if you actually pay more or just RP you do. But always make this difference clear to a seller. I've known someone get hurt being told they'd get paid a certain amount, but in reality they refused to pass anywhere close to as many tria as they RPed.) Or better yet, find a more permanent RP incentive to move me by.
Secondly, if you want these areas to fill out naturally, find a way to encourage:
1 - new players to join.
2 - new players to stay when they do join.
Because this right here is the underlying issue and all you are doing is poking at symptoms of it. I'm actively engaged in point 2 of this whenever I can be. I don't have time for point 1 though and what we really need is someone to deal with that.
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@Taya: Ok fine, you don't agree. I replied to you because you responded in thread and the other people reading did not. The post is not merely for you. People often read and don't respond in the threads they just catch me in IRC or game and give their input there.
That being said, it's almost always desolate even around Harn's. I'm curious, what groups of RPers you are expecting new players to see, especially since most of them are coming from games where only 6 players in a spot is an "empty" place in the game? Very few people actively RP while crafting at the smith. Harn's isn't that alive really.
"Encouraging" has not worked the last 5 years we've tried it. It's time to lay that myth to rest. That undefined term is not enough to convince people to hang around, it's a buzzword. It is time for more players to stop using nebulous terms and start actively forming initiatives. If you don't like this one that is fine, there is a whole game full of possibilities and other players can pitch their own idea. But it's time for those ideas.
Last, what I am talking about is the problem not the symptom. I see new players on all the time, what is going on is that they are not staying, the whole idea of this initiative is to create points of interest to get people to stay. People don't care about going out of their way if it is for a decent enough reason. I've gotten people to Gug, Oja, and Amdeneir that way, even new people. This is not what I guess or think works, I'm telling you what methods for sure work. It's time to go back to that if the community is to grow.
@LigH: Not exactly what I mean but what you say isn't completely different from what I mean. This thread is for a specific place and actions to do there with East Hydlaa loading docks being the place and RPing trade being the action. There are a lot of wasted RP possibilities there. But, what I am trying to advocate here is taking some lost RP opportunities, like using the empty kiosks or doing a real auction instead of just using the channel, and making an active effort to turn it into something that will attract other players, even if you have to attract other players one by one at first.
An analogy would be water droplets. If they stand apart they stay apart but if they brush against each other, they can merge. Then the merged water drop is bigger and can grab on to other drops and get bigger and bigger. People have to make an active effort to make a group of RPers that can take on people that weren't initially a part of the group, but once they do that the group is more likely grab others and draw them in. The great part is that you only need 2 RPers to start with.
Last night, I was able to RP with 7 people at the absolute worst time of night for RPing, but it didn't just happen. I had to make a concerted effort to stop people and try and RP with them but it worked out well. I caught a certain amount of people, then some of those people caught other people and then after awhile some of us ended up picnicking by the Gazebo laughing and telling stories.
The Gist of the Post:
Moral of the story is... the game needs definite action and not the same ill-defined words I've heard for the last 7 years.
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I have not said it's just for me? Nonetheless, your responses are directed that way because I was the only one here to respond to.
Again, please let me stress that I'm not disagreeing with you when you say that ideas are good and needed but you seem to be taking the stance that I am just 'against you' and that I am part of what you see as the problem. but let's get this clear, I 'want' action and change and development. I just don't see much use for this particular idea. This doesn't mean I think it's bad to explore it. If you raise it on a forum for 'discussion' I'd assume it's a good thing to get the opposing view along with the reasons behind it as well in order to refine the idea and work out if it's good. So as I said, give me IC reasons if you want to sell it, not OOC talk about why I should change how I play. Approach the merchants you hope to see move actually in game. As you said yourself - "People don't care about going out of their way if it is for a decent enough reason." My merchant would need a reason. I'm not suddenly going to do something that would be completely OOC for him unless you provide that.
And yes, exactly as you point out, the area around Harn's is not lively enough. How can taking away the interactions that merchants can cause there and transporting them elsewhere, merely moving the already limited activity from one place to a place new players are even less likely to encounter it, be good? What you propose does nothing to change the actual level of interactions going on between players, just the 'where' part of them.
It's great that you do things in game to encourage RP. I've only ever been lucky to catch you once to my awareness and I kind of wish it had been more often, because what I saw looked good and I really wish there were more players doing these sorts of things.
But turning this into a "I've heard it all before" game helps no one. There are newer players who do try to make an impact and who do try to make a difference and they get really tired of being told "I've heard it all before" every time they do suggest something that they think might help. It's a bit condescending really. As are the implications that I am just spamming out buzzwords with no action.
I'll wish you the best either way.
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Taya, nothing in my post is meant to be taken personally. If you'll remember the first post is actually the point of the thread and it is a call for people to try something not pointing blame. I'm not being half as condescending as you might assume. It's merely explanation, when I don't explain the first time I say something then I just end up having to explain later anyway. I could care less who is the problem or whatever, what I am after is action and plans not more discussion on who is to blame. Everyone says the same words at some point, I said them years ago, what I am trying to do is save another set of people from making the mistake of proceeding in the same way that has been proven ineffective. Also Taya, your merchant isn't the only one that am appealing to, I'm not even calling just for merchant characters.
But let me ask, if you talk about the potential of the merchants at harns, how is that radically different from the potential in east hydlaa? What difference does moving less than 10 mins away make if there is currently a small difference in the amount RP between the two places? How do you think the spawn point even came to be where it is? It was adjusted and I for one miss spawning in Oja. People will follow the RP so what is needed is for people to come together to step up the RP presence but to do so with a game plan.
Again, it's everything I mentioned earlier about the mechanics bending around RP. I actually don't care if it happens at Harn's but rather than taking my post personally, I'm asking for some kind of initiative. Do what you feel you must where you feel you must but grab some people and make plans for it.
Further, I already gave IC reason earlier. It's the settings. But aside from that, it is set up for markets with the expectation that people needed it it considering how many people sold just fine there during the fairs. Are Devs the only ones that can create an IC draw in that area? I know it's not. You however can do what you want obviously but I've already started trying to draw attention there myself. so my characters will take their goods there.
Side note for people saying "you're being a snob/condescending:
New players aren't require to always defer to old players but never forget that applies both way. It always helps greatly when you just assume no one is going out of their way to personally attack you. However, none of that has to be an issue here if everyone agrees to not make things personal.
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Reading between the lines here I see this as more of a request for people to arrange roleplay more often (and actually roleplay the trading IC rather than OOC), which I would agree with completely.
However, I don't see any reason for specifying a location to do this. I think you were trying to hit two birds with one stone here, and I respect that, but I believe the issue of Hydlaa East being "barren" is more down to how little a role it plays in planeshift's ecosystem, that is, there are no mobs, no storage or crafting areas or NPCs who trade common items; the only reason to go there is for books, quests and to upgrade low level magic.
I understand what you're saying, the kiosks are just sitting there collecting dust, and in RP terms, they make a good outfit for trading, but I don't see them being populated unless either we get overflowing crowds of players in hydlaa, or the kiosks are given something really worth standing around there for. It is natural to trade where the people are, and this tends to be the "local highstreet", or in this case, the plaza. I wish I could see a good reason to move, but I can't, as it is currently.
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Okay.
----East Hydlaa vs. Harns.
1. New players start by Harns. You can help them if you have a character there. It does not matter where the spawn point 'was.' This is where it 'is.' I often find I am able to help newer players from my merchant character while he is there. These players quite often don't even know how to use things like gossip yet.
2. There are more players at Harns due to storage/crafting stations. It does not matter if this a mechanics factor. It's still a fact that these things draw players to this location. If I position a character where there 'will' be players, there will always be a greater chance of RP resulting than if I message in gossip asking people to move somewhere else. I can message in gossip for RPers just the same wherever I might be, but 'passing trade' will always increase the likelihood of interactions.
3. My experiences of trying to find RP via gossip have generally been poor. My experience of going to where players are/are likely to show up and RPing to them to get things started has been much better. So I prefer to go where there is a greater chance of there being players.
In short - number of RP interactions is dependent on the number of characters your character will encounter. Unless storage / spawn point / crafting stations all get moved, this means Harns is always going to be the better place.
----Regarding settings.
Yes, East Hydlaa is trade related but so is the Winch. Why not sell goods there? And keep in mind, a lot of 'merchants' are selling produce made by residents of Hydlaa. My merchant sells items made by local smiths and advertises as such, so his goods are not coming in from East Hydlaa. They are coming from the forge at Harn's or the alchemy stove in the arena. Saying that East Hydlaa is more IC for selling than any of these other locations wouldn't make sense.
As for initiative. I see plenty of attempts being made and implying that people are not doing anything is unfair to those people.
I know you're not only appealing to me Illysia. But I am only one person and so I have answered from my viewpoint. Others are welcome to do the same.
In summary:
1 - change is good.
2 - I don't see why merchants should move to East Hydlaa and the reasons you have tried to provide are not enough to convince me.
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I do too support the idea of more RP and people encouraging it, but I fail to see why East Hydlaa is a better spot than Harnquist for trading, given we are such a few players. It's of critical importance that there are people there because of newcomers - as already pointed out earlier.
Another thing is, that I generally dislike "constructed RP". As in announcing and planning every time I should either buy or sell something OOC in gossip. It drags real life into my RP, and I honestly don't see the need - or how it would improve the game in any way. To me it would only serve to break the illusion.
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Thanks for reading and bothering to respond Taya. But, while I understand your concern, the storage thing does sorta miss what I am going for. I'm not talking about being a walmart in east Hydlaa. I mean literally trading. I have 5 iron and I trade with someone that has 10 rat hides. And the idea is not to stand around for 4 hours just hoping to make tria or bringing 500 books to sell for 30 circles a piece or something else that wouldn't make sense from a logical IC standpoint. I'm trying to get at encouraging RP between a wider pool of a characters. Many people need a reason for their character to interact with others, especially moody or difficult characters. This is one way of doing such things.
The point is not to wait for RP but to create RP.
If a character is weak then they should be selling/trading fewer things at a time. And don't most street vendors have a set amount of supply? How many people in RL set up shop outside of the local metalworking shop and go back in constantly to pull from an unlimited storage supply? What I am hoping to do is to try to encourage people to stop letting mechanics dictate RP, especially when mechanics can fall short of the possibilities and when they can also be changed to accommodate RP. If we all always say, "well I won't do it until someone else does it," who will EVER do it? ;)
The community could use some broadening out in activities and also getting to know other members within it. The Devs really can't do that for us. We have to look for and pursue new avenues on our own.
This pretty much is bang on.
The whole East Hydlaa trading is quite interesting. Essentially player behaviour V what settings/devs want it to be.
Be in game or real life, Merchants will always go where the money is and Harn's is where it is. But none the less some new avenues would be great, I will give some time thinking about it.
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Ok... let me stop and make this side statement: I really don't care that much about East Hydlaa... I really don't. Just do something! Do it at harn's... fine!
I intend to explain why I say East Hydlaa but really people, I didn't make the place. I'm not hooked at the hip to it, It's just where I'll be.
@Theorex: You are right about two birds with one stone and while I understand what you are saying keep in mind that all of those factors are OOC issues not RP issues. I wouldn't ask you to entirely move your whole operation, that wouldn't be fun. But consider, what did people do before banking was established, before there were mobs, before they could successfully complete quest (I kinda miss that system anyway)... they RPed. That is what I mean by not letting RP be dictated by mechanics. Mechanics are too limiting.
If you don't actually have a good on you, RP it and take RPed tria. Chances are that the items themselves haven't existed for that long either.
@Taya:
Ok, while I agree numbers affect probability that is not the same as successfully getting someone to RP with you. I've seen 7 people at the smithy that say next to nothing when I try to RP there... people in the area is not what I'm getting at, it's the RP specifically. Also, I would argue that hit or miss success with people in passing is not better. Valid, but not all around better. Yesterday I got way more people to RP with me just by standing at the base of the stairs leading to Kada's, but I would not tell people to just start standing there from now on due to the very hit or miss nature. That is why I advocate being proactive.
Also, gossip is NOT the point. I really don't care if you use smoke signals... Once more: The point is to create more points of interest not sit around nitpicking the details to death. Do it at Harn's I don't care. Make a wooden sign instead of gossip... great! I would love to RP in the winch but it is sadly not an area that everyone has access to, myself included.
As for initiative. I see plenty of attempts being made and implying that people are not doing anything is unfair to those people.
OK, here we go again, just said it's not personal, not to you or anyone else. I made no such implication. I'm trying to get more people on board. MORE. I never said it didn't happen, but look around, it's not enough. It would help dialogue and efforts to rally people greatly if people weren't so quick to turn a suggestion into condemnation of someone's efforts. Most people have lives aside from looking for people to insult in game. I especially can't be bothered to go around discounting people.
@Zazhia: We have less than 100 people online. I don't like contrived RP either but we simply don't have enough people for regular casual encounters. Every time my character randomly greets another character that the character dosen't know the character, and likely the player too, is confused. That means people are not even in the habit of casual encounter RP. Get more people first, then we can pick and choose. ;)
@Roberet: Well, keep an eye out in gossip or if you like you can look for my characters in East Hydlaa. I will likely juggle which Characters I send but I will be trying to actively draw characters there. If you come up with better idea for any location, do suggest them somewhere, even here.
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@Zazhia: We have less than 100 people online. I don't like contrived RP either but we simply don't have enough people for regular casual encounters. Every time my character randomly greets another character that the character dosen't know the character, and likely the player too, is confused. That means people are not even in the habit of casual encounter RP. Get more people first, then we can pick and choose. ;)
I generally get good responses when approaching people and greeting them. We must meet different people :-)
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Very. I practically threw each person that actually stopped for a loop. Might also be a matter of timing. Europeans always have been kicking American's tails when it comes to RP in this game. XD I usually get much better response during European evening.
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Before banking was established people tended towards using alts as bankers, the only change in that respect is, it's become easier and more IC. But forgetting that point, as it's not really the message you're trying to bring across here...
I have tried to RP abilities and owning items that my character doesn't have, and people aren't generally impressed with it. I agree with you, roleplay is much better without these mechanical constraints, unfortunately ignoring the mechanics in place raises two issues that I can think of.
Firstly, mechanics help dissolve the issue of godmodding, without them, it's hard to determine what is godmodding and what isn't; while mature players will happily play fairly, there are many players who want to be the hero all the time, and mechanics are one way of resolving that problem. To further this point, players who do use the mechanics to prove their characters worth will feel cheated by players who roleplay their worth only. This is an extreme way of saying, if you trade something you don't have, there's a good chance someone will be annoyed by it, even if they're just a witness to the trade.
Secondly, when you ignore or bypass constraints, you are opening up the possibility for immersion instability, for example, when you come to invent something new, which people are bound to do, it might become common knowledge but conflicts with something already in place about the planeshift world. e.g. a ynnwn's platinum bow, for those who don't know ynnwns have allergies to platinum, there is nothing wrong with this, so a small circle of roleplay is created that is simply wrong, and will break the immersion for more knowledgeable players. New inventions are not the only cause in this respect.
I believe these are two reason why constraints are made in the first place, so, even if we were to roleplay more without the strict use of constraints, unless we address these issues a different way, planeshift's community will just go a full circle.
So, how would you address these?
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For the tl;dr people:
- Mechanics can't do the work players have to do themsleves.
- Be mature and when other people aren't being mature, BE MATURE.
- Don't make the problem worse.
- Your immersion will be broken eventually, no matter what. Learn to ease the effect.
The only real solution is for the community to come together to work on case by case solutions and common ground. There is no shortcut, mechanics or otherwise.
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While you are absolutely right on several points Theorex, let me point out a few things before I get into how to deal with those issues. And remember around the third paragraph or so, when you are sick of reading this ;) , that proper explanations require full thoughts not just snippets. I'll try to shorten the thoughts where I can without loosing the meaning.
One, there simply aren't enough people for this to be a significant problem. I remember the godmodding, the trouble and the fussing, but now I don't really see it. Why? Because there aren't even enough people roleplaying at the same time to cause as much conflict. I'd like to say people got reasonable all at once but that's just not that likely. Rather than stiffle RP because we might run into these issues again, at this current time, let's get started on expanding the RP and then we can worry about the problems that actually do arise.
Two, when I talk about RP and mechanics, I'm not advocating completely ignoring it. What I am advocating is not getting so tied to it that you can't RP anything until the devs implement it. Mechanics are incomplete, they break, they get cumbersome, they change... One way or another they will require you to make judgement calls anyway, so I'm asking people to be less dependent on them. Not ignore them per se.
Ok, now into the actual issues. I have already traded things that didn't actually exist and it went fine. The problem there is not the way of trading it is the level of consideration the player shows to the other party. Since I gave "nothing", I took "nothing". Even though the amount of tria for my items were well below OOC market value, I still made it a point to try to be fair to the other player. I RPed the exchange of tria without taking any actual tria from them. All parties were satisfied and some even gave tria anyway because they in turn were trying to be considerate.
It is a matter of exercising a little sense. Someone that can't manage that much is just as likely to try to cheat you with an item that has a model and icon. Always consider how much you personally would be willing to give up in exchange when trading.
Also, I guarantee you that mechanics or not, someone somewhere will always be offended by your actions. You can only do so much to prevent offense before you become unable to do anything. In a case like that, you should put yourself in the other person's place and think about what considerations you would want. You should actively work to come to an equitable arrangement with the other party. Beyond that there really isn't much else you can do.
For those unwilling to work with the other party to come to a fair result, forget them. No one is a mind reader and no one is the star of the show. Anyone that can't give a little to get a little is probably just going to cause trouble no matter what.
Godmodding___
Now, about godmodding. There are often complaints about it, but let's be honest, it hasn't been a large issue since the player count dropped. Most of the power fantasy fiends have moved on and most of the people left are reasonable enough. Rather than assume everyone is going to go power mad, start RPing and deal with godmodding if it comes up. I haven't had a problem with it for years. Even at the height of my belly aching it was rarely about outright godmodding.
NOTE: NONE OF THE FOLLOWING IS PERSONAL OR SPECIFIC TO ANY ONE PERSON OR GROUP. IT IS NOT AN ATTACK OR MEANT TO INSULT. IT IS A GENERAL COMMENTARY ON HOW TO DEAL WITH THESE PROBLEMS.
Some ways to deal with the godmodding issue:
One, understand that godmodding actually happens often, in a sense, and no one cares. When someone grabs your shoulder without "trying" to, you have been godmodded, but in most cases it is a welcome way to get on with things. There is much complaint about godmodding, but it's isn't quite as evil as people generally portray it. The two actual problem areas are combat and your character's well being, so lets narrow the field down to that.
Oh, and just as a note, the following commentary does not relate to the mechanics, just to player action and reaction. It has been proven that players taking stupid, inconsiderate, or obnoxious actions cannot be stopped by mechanics. It will always be up to the community of players to manage these kind of things among themselves or at worst GM intervention(the closest thing to a sufficient mechanics response)...
When you are dealing with RP issues related to combat or whether or not another character can get hurt or killed, TAKE EXTRA CARE TO BE CONSIDERATE AND TO COMMUNICATE. Did I emphasize that enough? Let me say that again. When you are dealing with combat or the well being of another character tip lightly. Since characters are usually close to people's heart, it doesn't take much to cause offense, hurt feelings, or unnecessary drama. Learn to work with the other person or no amount of mechanics is going to fix the mess that is just waiting to be made.
On the other side of the issue, if you are being godmodded, DO NOT MAKE THE MATTER WORSE. Once more... DO NOT ADD TO THE PROBLEM. There are ways to deal with that issue that won't make it blow up into a grand firestorm.
The key here is maturity on the player's part, whether the other person is mature or not. Remember that no one is a mind reader and that everyone can forget to think about how their actions will be interpeted. There is a chance that the other person did not godmod intentionally or they just didn't think they were godmodding.
When someone godmods you, the first thing to do is to calmly and politely make it clear that you feel godmodded and that you don't want to go along with the action. You don't have to go along with things if you don't want to; this came up with that string of rape RPs awhile back. But, do consider why the other person might have wanted to take that action. It might not be as much of a godmod as you think.
Further, feeling godmodded is not a good reason to go into a rage or a whine. It can easily cause the other player to feel attacked, offended, or at least make them get defensive. That will most likely lead to them sending an angry salvo back, and cause the whole thing to escalate needlessly. Feeling justified is not automatically the go ahead to act out, but the first one to do it opens the door and then there will be several parties all feeling justified in insulting, harrassing, etc. the other party. It just becomes a mess, nothing good will come of it.
BE CALM when you respond. Try to clearly state what you have an issue with without accusing people of all sorts of extra things that you assume was a part of the incident, like being unfair, meaning disrespect, trying to be a pain, being a bad RPer, etc. ... Keep it to what actually happened, it will go better for everyone. If you try to work it out with a reasonable level of maturity it is more likely that you can come to an equitable solution.
Now, if the other person is for sure being an absolute jerk DO NOT RESPOND THE SAME WAY. It makes the problem bigger, you then share responbility for the trouble that will follow, and nothing is solved. You can /ignore that person; you can just stop the RP altogether, sacrificing some immersion is better than fanning the flames; you can /report them; or you can make a petition. Just remember: don't feed the troll.
Lastly, if for some reason doing these things to try to manage godmodding breaks your immersion and it is too much, then you might want to consider being an author instead of an RPer in an MMO. Having so many people possibly interacting with each other will make it frequently necessary to come to OOC arrangements, and there is really isn't a way around that that doesn't lead to drama at some point.
Immersion Instability____
Simply put, at any point this game could change and the settings and the mechanics to match could change or disappear. Ask the diaboli and the players that played them. You have to be ready at any moment to have to rewrite or rework some aspect of your RP anyway, so you shouldn't let the fact that you might get it wrong or that what you do might become wrong scare you out of RPing new things or RPing with others who might have a slightly different view...
If you RP long enough in this game, your immersion will get broken eventually, it comes with the package. The best thing to do there is to be flexible and learn how to make efforts to reconcile the break with any other involved parties.
For instance, someone comes up to you and they are a Ynnwn/Enki hybrid... break! Now you could get in a funk about it, you could refuse to RP ever again with that person, or you can do something constructive about it. Can your character ICly comment on how that breaks the settings? Can you send a polite tell explaining that a character of that nature is against settings? If people genuinely don't know any better, then someone needs to help them learn. If someone is deliberately being a pest and childishly wants to force everyone to play along then just don't indulge it.
This is another case of "be mature even if the other person is not". You can refuse to deal with the break by ignoring it, you can stop RPing with the person until they decide to be reasonable, Or you can make use of reports, petitions, and ignore if the break can be interpreted as harrassment.
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I think this covers the basics; but, overall, when you play this game you have to accept that there is no way to completely police it, to prevent issues, or to always be completely comfortable in it. It's open to the world and that means anything can happen. All you can control is your own actions, but that is at least be enough to prevent large scale blow ups.
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Rolls also work rather nicely to add a randomness factor, and can help prevent god-modding. Or course nothing beats a collected mature response.
Also, Illy is the queen of long posts.
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Also, Illy is the queen of long posts.
*adjusts her crown*
I stole it from another oldbie.
However, I would love to do shorter posts, but a lot of things apparently need to be explicitly stated. When I know that everyone will understand without paragraphs of texts or already knows to do certain things, I don't write paragraphs...
^
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Case in point.
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/me is trying to be the king of "efficient" posts...
Partially I understand your goal. Even if I need to prepare something out-of-caracter, I always try to ask (also) in-character for it, like recently for a new enchanted chainmail armor. Still don't have one. Still don't know a price. Not only because the required specialists were not in game at the same times. But also due to annoying "reasons" like "too busy with crafting, not interested in IC chats, just say what you need".
New ideas and suggestions are welcome. But not everyone seems to be waiting eagerly for any possible chance. Some ideas may have to become a habit before they get accepted. The player base appears to have a certain inertia...
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Ok... let me stop and make this side statement: I really don't care that much about East Hydlaa... I really don't. Just do something! Do it at harn's... fine!
I intend to explain why I say East Hydlaa but really people, I didn't make the place. I'm not hooked at the hip to it, It's just where I'll be.
I only responded regarding East Hydlaa because you seemed so focused on it. I've already quite explicitly stated that everything else you are saying I agree with. I do lots of somethings (currently not so many visible ones due to issues I won't go into). I will be continuing with those somethings and trying to get others to do the same just like I always have.
OK, here we go again, just said it's not personal, not to you or anyone else. I made no such implication. I'm trying to get more people on board. MORE. I never said it didn't happen, but look around, it's not enough. It would help dialogue and efforts to rally people greatly if people weren't so quick to turn a suggestion into condemnation of someone's efforts. Most people have lives aside from looking for people to insult in game. I especially can't be bothered to go around discounting people.
I'd still say it's not enough because of the low number of players. A couple of nights ago I spent about two hours on an alt having him randomly talk at people, do things in front of people, all sorts of little things that an RPer could use to get involved. I tried gossip too. Nothing. No result. One person (likely a new player) stopped and asked what my weapon was. After I answered he ran off, showing no real interest in anything else, though at least that short encounter managed to feel IC. One issue was simply how hard it was to find anyone to RP at. If there had been more people there'd have been a much much bigger chance of getting someone to respond. Eventually I poked someone outside the game who did come and join in, and then we had an RP that was at least viewed by three or four other people, even if for all intents and purposes they continued to completely ignore it. But really, we need more players. And this is a thing I don't really see much at all being done about. My own hope is that once the tutorial gets worked on more, more will at least make it through that and into the game.
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I will be continuing with those somethings and trying to get others to do the same just like I always have.
Good. That's all I ask of the people still doing things.
I'd still say it's not enough because of the low number of players. A couple of nights ago I spent about two hours on an alt having him randomly talk at people, do things in front of people, all sorts of little things that an RPer could use to get involved. I tried gossip too. Nothing. No result. One person (likely a new player) stopped and asked what my weapon was. After I answered he ran off, showing no real interest in anything else, though at least that short encounter managed to feel IC. One issue was simply how hard it was to find anyone to RP at. If there had been more people there'd have been a much much bigger chance of getting someone to respond. Eventually I poked someone outside the game who did come and join in, and then we had an RP that was at least viewed by three or four other people, even if for all intents and purposes they continued to completely ignore it. But really, we need more players. And this is a thing I don't really see much at all being done about. My own hope is that once the tutorial gets worked on more, more will at least make it through that and into the game.
The playerbase is not going to just grow. All the advertising in the world will mean nothing if the game doesn't look interesting when new players get in. People have been trying for years to get the amount of people trying the game to rise. It hasn't helped much because the new people quickly get bored and leave. Nevermind, the residual ill will floating around connected to the game. All sitting around waiting for people to come has lead to is a playerbase sitting around. The current playerbase just needs to step up now.
It only takes 2 people to roleplay, not 2 hundred. The larger problem is that too many people quickly get in the habit of only RPing with the same people and thus don't RP with whoever is around. That's why you can stand there trying to catch people and get ignored. The only way to fix that is to keep trying to expand out and drag people into RPs. People used to learn by example. With fewer RPers around, those that can be an example have to try harder or things will never turn around.
Also, this game started from a small player base and grew to upwards of 200 peak online. The size is not the hindering factor of the current community, it's the mindset. If players in the past could grow the game from a small playerbase, then players now should be just as capable. Like I've said earlier. Dev/GM/Player events always seem to not only pull people out of thin air but also seem to keep them around. The people are already there, waiting. They are simply too bored to hang around during the space between events.
The player base appears to have a certain inertia...
I think it is a matter of having lost momentum.
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Now, about godmodding. There are often complaints about it, but let's be honest, it hasn't been a large issue since the player count dropped. Most of the power fantasy fiends have moved on and most of the people left are reasonable enough. Rather than assume everyone is going to go power mad, start RPing and deal with godmodding if it comes up. I haven't had a problem with it for years. Even at the height of my belly aching it was rarely about outright godmodding.
It isn't really the power fantasy fiends that I have issue with, it's usually the every day roleplayer. As you mention further on, characters tend to be close to a player's heart, and whether they know it or not, they will often godmod in a seemingly subtle way to protect them. It wasn't long ago I tried to play a thief character. That didn't go so well, when it came to trying to pick someone's pocket (even for things non-existant, just for RP's sake), he would get caught every single time. He was publicly accused of thievery in hydlaa plaza. People complimented on his character in /tells, but I myself had a rotten time playing him.
Please note, I'm not against your post, quite the opposite, I think what you've written with regards to godmodding and immersion should be read by everyone. But I wanted make a point that players being protective of their characters is an attitude I would like to address, and get people mindful of. It's not that I want evil to rule half of the world, it's that currently, it isn't ruling any.
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I fully understand. But for instances like that I have to say that the current player base is not quite at a point where it can handle more complex characters, generally speaking. It's still got a lot of growing and a little growing up to do. People still don't always remember to uphold the IC/OOC boundary in all cases (like a mean character is not a mean player). Or they may forget to take turns (win a little loose a little). I've even found it hard to play quirkier characters since it seem that often people don't know how to interact with those characters.
In the past, what seemed to deter such behavior--notice I don't say stop--was that people who acted in such a way were either constantly corrected or outright shunned by a large majority of the community. It was this peer regulation that made it clear where certain boundaries were. Right now, there aren't enough RPers nor a strong enough sense of a community for that method to work... It's all up in the air and there seems to be much less common ground between RPers.
That being said, this is why I have been campaigning for years for work to start on the community level. Let the people that are around and can work together pull together. Form a core that the rest can build on. Eventually people will come, they will find a reason to stay, and they will in turn drag others along. But you can't wait for the people to come first.
So, people need to start reaching out to the other RPers, get to know their characters better and start forming rapports. Then you will be able to manage bigger and more engaging RPs and that will start changing the tides.
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I fully understand. But for instances like that I have to say that the current player base is not quite at a point where it can handle more complex characters
Hah, you obviously haven't met me or really any of the people I hang around with. Course I'm only on about every other day and the others about every day.
Main point aside, flat characters are never interesting enough to hold most new people's attentions long enough to get them inescapably twisted into PS. If they just keep running into people with a single aspect to them (IE: A merchant who will only ever buy and sell things to/from you, with 0 ability to interact outside those parameters.) they will get bored and leave. Heck I lucked out my first day playing by spying on some crazy half-interrogation thing and getting caught then cornered as I had no idea how to navigate hydlaa.
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One dimensional characters are a whole different barrel of problems. But for now I think we need to get more people of any type around. Character development can happen over time but we need people hanging around long enough for that to happen.
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Hey. This thread apparently stopped being about the market a long time ago. Of course, more RP, expand the player base, etc. is all good stuff that should be worked on.
Going back to the point of this thread, I really like the idea of having a universally recognized "market district" or "great bazaar" type of thing going on in Hydlaa. It makes sense, these things occur(ed) all over the place in real cities. In my opinion it would be better than just sitting in front of Harny's because (1) it seems to fit better with the settings, and (2) a lot of people I meet at Harny's seem to be crafters/powerlevelers that don't really respond when you try talking to them (keep in mind I don't play often at peak hours). The market district would be a recognized bartering RP area. You could have it show up in the tips during loading screens, the NPCs could talk about it. It could be common knowledge that if you're looking to buy something, you should check the market area.
Now, the problems. The main issues seem to be not a lot of player traffic, and no storage. Instead of ignoring the problems, what about looking for solutions?
1. Move a storage NPC to the market area or make a new one. If East Hydlaa is the shipping center for the city, you would think storage would be available. As far as I know, Willam doesn't really have any ties to his current location (?) so what if he got moved to the market to make things easier? Willam is already pretty close to Harnquist, it seems silly to have the two storage NPCs so close together.
2. Low player traffic. This one is trickier but I think it's solvable. Firstly, through loading screen tips, NPC dialogue, and player interactions, it could quickly become common knowledge that the market is the place to go to buy or sell. If a storage NPC is moved to the area, it would increase traffic, especially from miners/hunters/gatherers on Oja road coming into the city to store things. Lastly, you could move some of the NPCs that don't really have places to be, or some of the trade NPCs, into the market area to liven it up. Or at least have them pass through for a bit each day.
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These are wonderful ideas tman! \o/
I was thinking that making a new storage NPC would be too much to ask but I like the idea of getting Willam moved. It would worth looking into his settings more to see how a move could be accommodated. I think he runs the bank so maybe set up a bank in East Hydlaa. Even nicer if you could set up a guildhouse bank that you could walk into. ICly it would help merchants needing to purchase from the caravans.
Also, suggesting new MOTDs about the market area is a great idea. I don't think that it takes a ton of effort to add new ones in. NPCs might have to wait till the KAs are worked out though. But maybe Worem could move through the area periodically offering to make change for anyone looking to perchase from the local merchants.
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It isn't really the power fantasy fiends that I have issue with, it's usually the every day roleplayer. As you mention further on, characters tend to be close to a player's heart, and whether they know it or not, they will often godmod in a seemingly subtle way to protect them. It wasn't long ago I tried to play a thief character. That didn't go so well, when it came to trying to pick someone's pocket (even for things non-existant, just for RP's sake), he would get caught every single time. He was publicly accused of thievery in hydlaa plaza. People complimented on his character in /tells, but I myself had a rotten time playing him.
I've always found the easiest way to fix that problem is to /tell a player and ask them if they'd like to be pick-pocketed OOCly. That seemingly insignificant piece of curtsey goes a long way. While it is true that sometimes people unconsciously protect their characters, that quick question often allows them to let their guard down a little for the sake of RP. And even after you get caught and publicly branded a thief it opens up a whole new set of ideas to RP with. Forgive the musical reference, but Jean Valjean from Les Misarables is a good inspiration for a thief with a heart of gold. Opening that level of sympathy with others might make things a little more interesting. Of course I might not fully understand the situation, but the concept of a small amount of OOC coordination goes a long way in making things run smoothly for all players.
I fully understand. But for instances like that I have to say that the current player base is not quite at a point where it can handle more complex characters
Hah, you obviously haven't met me or really any of the people I hang around with. Course I'm only on about every other day and the others about every day.
Main point aside, flat characters are never interesting enough to hold most new people's attentions long enough to get them inescapably twisted into PS. If they just keep running into people with a single aspect to them (IE: A merchant who will only ever buy and sell things to/from you, with 0 ability to interact outside those parameters.) they will get bored and leave. Heck I lucked out my first day playing by spying on some crazy half-interrogation thing and getting caught then cornered as I had no idea how to navigate hydlaa.
There are actually a lot of really good characters out there. I also think part of the problem is that there isn't enough conflict going on to really reveal the other sides of characters. While it may seem like some chars are boring, I'm willing to bet they just haven't had the chance to evolve and progress through RP. I'm not really talking about violent conflict, but more of conflict of opinion. I've had some pretty fun RP's with Teshia over the usefulness of the guards.
Any ways on an on topic note, I would love to see this market idea take off. I think it would be awesome. But I am a little skeptical on how it will work if there is no real hook to it. Perhaps its just me but I'm a little afraid of this market appearing and then people appearing, and not knowing what to do. There is only so much you can do with a buy/sell RP. That gets boring kind of fast. There really needs to be some form of conflict, perhaps with gangs shaking down merchants for the space they use, or even something as simple as two competing kiosks. You know I'm behind you 100% Illy but I am curios to see how the idea of conflict in this new space will be worked in.
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There are actually a lot of really good characters out there. I also think part of the problem is that there isn't enough conflict going on to really reveal the other sides of characters. While it may seem like some chars are boring, I'm willing to bet they just haven't had the chance to evolve and progress through RP. I'm not really talking about violent conflict, but more of conflict of opinion.
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Perhaps its just me but I'm a little afraid of this market appearing and then people appearing, and not knowing what to do. There is only so much you can do with a buy/sell RP. That gets boring kind of fast. There really needs to be some form of conflict
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You're absolutely right on several points. But I suppose I should have anticipated the "what to do now?" part that might worry people. In the past, feeding people ideas that much used to illicit much whining and complaining from players that already knew full well what they were going to do, so I deliberately avoided that. Maybe it will help now if I list some issues that people can create or look for opportunities to get into.
Basically, whenever you get into an RP never forget to either take time to develop and explore your character or to take time to explore the characters around you. The market is just to get people in one place RPing with each other. Don't let the RP begin and end with "give me x of that item."
- You can take the time to look for a character to apprentice your character to or look for a character to take on as an apprentice
- Look for a character to make conversation with, find out who they are, where they are from, what they do(you never know when that info will be useful later
- If you are a thief, look for marks
- If you are a con artist, look for people to scam
- If you are a prima donna, look for an excuse to cause a scene or spectacle
- If you are in a complicated relationship, look for an opportunity to out the other person in public
- If you really can't stand someone, take a swing at them... (no weapons or magic within Hydlaa but it might be fair game in Oja and Gug)
- If you think that other character over there is attractive, try to approach them
- If the merchant is charging too much, haggle
- If haggling isn't working, make a scene and storm off to go find someone else to buy from and tell everyone you know they are a cheat
- If your character is nervous in crowds, explore how your character would react to having to be forced into crowds
- If you are looking to start another RP, start recruiting other players you pass
- If someone is lost, offer to show them around(RP it, don't just run them there then say bye OOCly)
- If you are a bard/storyteller/musician look for a new audience
- if you are a potter, brewer, jewelry maker, tailor, or any other unimplemented skill, start RPing your trade and look for business. The settings is not likely to drastically affect pots and shirt and metal rings.
- If you are a perfectly normal plain character, marvel at all the people with sad histories, dead relatives, extraordinary feats and aquaintences.
- If you are an orator, give speeches on the need to pressure the octarchy into a revision of the laws (and take consequences that may arise with that)
- so on and so forth...
Also, it would help to start giving your character more dimensions like Phantomboy86 mentioned. A while ago I created a list for players to use so they could look for aspects of their character that they haven't explored or that they need to work on. I'll put it here to for people that can make use of it.
Character Context Check
Use this checklist to look for places where your character would be unable do more than just stand there. When you find a place, work on a response that would be unique to your character or at the very least would reflect the character's personality or motivations. Admittedly, some of these situations may never happen in RP but they might be referenced, so it is a good idea to think about them just the same. Obviously, this is not a comprehensive list but it does cover a lot of things
How does your character react...
(Il)Legalities:
[ ] When being robbed
[ ] When being asked to participate in illegal activities
[ ] When being asked by the guards to assist in an investigation
[ ] When actually doing something illegal (willing/unwilling/aware of wrongness/not aware)
[ ] When being caught (by civilian/by guard)
[ ] When cornered by a vigilante mob
[ ] When cornered by a thug mob
[ ] When knowingly trespassing in various places (seedy places/official places/privately owned places)
[ ] When standing trial in the courthouse
[ ] When forced to choose between saving someone dear to the character or following the law
[ ] When a friend is arrested (wrongly arrested/justifiably arrested)
[ ] When a child does something illegal
In and Around Town:
[ ] When they find themselves in a library or place of learning
[ ] When they find themselves in a temple or place of worship
[ ] When they find themselves in a legal building
[ ] When they find themselves in a social gathering spot
[ ] When they find themselves in a quiet place
[ ] When they find themselves in a field or in nature
[ ] When they find themselves alone
[ ] When they find themselves in a market or place of business
[ ] When they find themselves in a hospital(like place) or place of healing
[ ] When they find themselves in an arena or place of combat
[ ] When they find themselves in a secret place
[ ] When they find themselves in a large city
[ ] When they find themselves in a small town
[ ] When they find themselves in a place with mostly one race (opposite of their own/ same as their own)
[ ] When they find themselves in a place with many races
[ ] When they find themselves in a place where they are easily ignored
[ ] When they find themselves in a place where they are noticed by everyone (positive attention/negative attention)
Character to Character Interactions
[ ] When your character meets a former friend or enemy
[ ] When your character meets a former or current lover
[ ] When your character meets a passing acquaintance
[ ] When your character meets a person of unclear relationship status (are you or aren't you on good terms)
[ ] When your character meets somone that tried to kill them
[ ] When your character meets somone that they are attracted too
[ ] When your character meets somone that they are repulsed by
[ ] When your character meets somone that is known to be very honest(ICly)
[ ] When your character meets somone that is known to be very dishonest(ICly)
[ ] When your character meets somone that is known to be a criminal(ICly)
[ ] When your character meets somone that is known to be connected with the legal system(ICly)
[ ] When your character meets somone that is known to be a vigilante
[ ] When your character meets somone that is known to be a victim
[ ] When your character meets somone that is known to be a merchant
[ ] When your character meets somone that is known to be a craftsmen
[ ] When your character meets somone that is known to be a vagrant
[ ] When your character meets somone that is known to be a drunk
[ ] When your character meets somone that is known to be high strung
[ ] When your character meets somone that is known to be very relaxed
[ ] When your character meets somone that is known to be "weird"
[ ] When your character meets somone that is known to be from another part of Yliakum
[ ] When your character meets somone that is known to talk about OOC things ICly
[ ] When your character meets somone that claims to be very powerful (fighter/mage/misc)
[ ] When your character meets somone that claims to be very rich
[ ] When your character meets somone that claims to be from outside of Yliakum
Character Expression
note: A situation may call for a certain response but that doesn't mean that your character has to follow the script
[ ] When your character is expected to be sad at someone's death
[ ] When your character is expected to be happy about an event in another character's life
[ ] When your character is expected to disapprove of illegal or dark matters
[ ] When your character is expected to approves of legal matters or moral
[ ] When your character is expected to take the lead
[ ] When your character is expected to follow willingly
[ ] When your character is expected to back off
[ ] When your character is expected to do something that the character can't actually do
[ ] When your character is expected to do a favor
[ ] When your character is expected to drop everything
[ ] When your character is expected to be surprised
[ ] When your character is expected to be shocked
[ ] When your character is expected to be gentle
[ ] When your character is expected to be understanding
[ ] When your character is expected to be tender
[ ] When your character is expected to be affectionate
[ ] When your character is expected to be stern
[ ] When your character is expected to be mean
[ ] When your character is expected to be dishonest
[ ] When your character is expected to be honest
[ ] When your character is expected to be thoughtful
[ ] When your character is expected to leap without looking
[ ] When your character is expected to be dumb
[ ] When your character is expected to be intelligent
[ ] When your character is expected to be happy
[ ] When your character is expected to conform
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+1 for moving Willam and adding MOTDs.
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Ok, I asked Venalan about whether making some of those earlier mentioned changes to the area were possible and it is. But it would only happen if there is more support. So if you really want storage over there then now would be the time to speak up.
For those who may not like the idea of trading but aren't necessarily against East Hydlaa. There are other things you can do with the kiosks.
- Have a wine tasting
- Set up an Open bar and just RP pouring drinks
- Do a puppet show
- Create your own mini museum exhibit
- Set up a kissing booth
- Set up a hugging booth
- Set up a free advice stand
- Set up an informal court for settling disputes between characters
- Set up a gem/jewelry appraising stand
- Set up a little clinic
- set up an arm wrestling tournament
- etc. ...
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/me raises a glass full of red wine, stares at it with a slight frown, smells it, takes a sip, thinks for a while, and after deliberating profoundly, speaks "I do think this is a red wine." *
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Set up a free advice stand
\\o//
Dr. Forita? I have a problem...
:D
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/me sets up a bachelor booth.
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So, I've read most of what has been said. I'd be happy to help set up some sort of recognized venue to give the players some where to go where you /know/ the people there will be there to proactively RP about [insert topic here] with any and all that turn up or as a place you can trade odd items or IC favours.
Now the one hesitation I have is that proposals and plans like these pop up from time to time but never get maintained by the players. If we the devs spend time setting up npcs and items and storage and MOTD/Tips and KAs and then load it to the server just to find you lot never use the area as the few people spearheading it have left and the drive vanishes it would be a complete waste. Ideally I'd like to see that people are at least trying to get something going in the area be it merchants or palm readers or people open to IC questions (Knowledge seekers) or guides or poets or Rivnak groomers or anything. Who then let me know about it.
But the only way for that area (or any area) to be an area people look to to find something to do is if you guys as players sit there with a character(s) and wait and RP when people come up. Hopefully with some effort and time this would lead to more hanging out and more coming by and a reputation for the place building up.
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But the only way for that area (or any area) to be an area people look to to find something to do is if you guys as players sit there with a character(s) and wait and RP when people come up. Hopefully with some effort and time this would lead to more hanging out and more coming by and a reputation for the place building up.
I'm willing to start the effort of making pushes for this, but I need support if it's going to stick.
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Set up a free advice stand
I'm off of PS for a bit due to real life complications, but when I get back I am so having my wannabe-psychologist stick a "The doctor is IN, 5 trias" sign on one of those kiosks and wait for the business to roll in...
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Basically, whenever you get into an RP never forget to either take time to develop and explore your character or to take time to explore the characters around you. The market is just to get people in one place RPing with each other. Don't let the RP begin and end with "give me x of that item."
Interesting. I like it. I really think this can work. I won't be online much at all until Friday, but I hope to see people there! Maybe I'll even set up a stand if I am feeling adventurous.
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I'll be periodically trying to get stuff started there, so you can look for me online and poke me about it. I'm sure we'll cross paths eventually. :)
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Some of the recent changes have made it too hard to level anything for a new player. Removing rats from the arena, too few rats and poisonings by diseased rats and others in the sewers has left only Ojaveda to train low levels of weapons and armor and the trainers are in Hydlaa.
My real question is, are the devs against grinding for character development?
Ok, I am not a great role player, but I do my best. My pet-peeve is those that don't do any work to develop skills but rp that they can kick Waesed's butt. I have been accused of god-modding when I have the skills. ???
The market area in East Hydlaa is a great idea and a Storage NPC would be a real help.
People need to cut the new players some slack when it comes to ooc in Main chat. They will learn if you don't run them off first. You can build the player base by helping and being gentle with correction. If your character wouldn't do that, direct them to someone that will like Jemima, Waesed, and many others (don't be offended if I didn't mention someone, I am bad remembering names).
I have thought about quitting because of the changes, but I do love this game.
Let's rp like it is real, be real, and let others know who you want them to think you are. chit-chat is one of my favorite things to do, hanging around and having a few reds with anyone.
I have found that you can write in a book what you want to trade if it isn't in the game yet. That gives someone the ability to trade it themselves after they receive it.
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Some of the recent changes have made it too hard to level anything for a new player. Removing rats from the arena [...]
Maybe I am off topic here, but I think the changes to the spawning points in the arena have made things easier for new players, as the grouping of creatures according to their strength should be more clear now and there are plenty of rats in one single spot. The main problem is when players lure the ratties away and then forget to clean up the mess (i.e. to kill lost rats such that they respawn in the proper place).
On topic: I support the idea, it would be welcome to have more trading (RP) activity in the neighborhood.
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On the grinding versus straight RP thing. One form is as valid as the other since some RPers would be upset at always being at a disadvantage because they can't play long hours to grind to their characters to the proper level. The real issue is players treating RPing like a single player game that is to be "beaten."
I would suggest using the same methods as players who RP relationships between characters. Don't enter into that kind of RP with someone you don't already have some sort of understanding with. Making sure that you and the other player are on the same page before you go farther will help cut down greatly on causes for aggravation.
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In addition to what Illy said, it might also be a good idea to pre-determine the victor of the fight if it's meant to move the story forward. As she said, roleplay isn't about "winning"; we all lose when the scene degrades into OOC bickering and nobody's having any fun.
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On the grinding versus straight RP thing. One form is as valid as the other since some RPers would be upset at always being at a disadvantage because they can't play long hours to grind to their characters to the proper level. The real issue is players treating RPing like a single player game that is to be "beaten."
I would suggest using the same methods as players who RP relationships between characters. Don't enter into that kind of RP with someone you don't already have some sort of understanding with. Making sure that you and the other player are on the same page before you go farther will help cut down greatly on causes for aggravation.
I can agree with you that those without the time to grind need a means to develop their characters, but maybe they need to do something other than combat. I can handle someone pretending to make potions or clothing, even armor and weapons (they can buy those things and show them off as their own).
Candy, I agree with you, but someone can't expect everyone to agree with their preplanned rp. One of the best parts is disrupting the plans of the evil ones. ;)
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But should they be penalized for not having the time to grind by getting cut out of combat? Also, remember that even the evil character RPers should get to win at times too.
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But should they be penalized for not having the time to grind by getting cut out of combat? Also, remember that even the evil character RPers should get to win at times too.
I guess you weren't around when Kisoji and I were at odds. I never won in combat against him. But we were role-playing in many different situations. Yes, evil may triumph at times, but so does good. It's all in the fun of the game. By the same token, should I be penalized by someone that would have trouble killing a rat but pretends to be maxed in everything? This is a 3-D game and I find it a little odd that there are some that want to treat it like a text based rpg. There is lots of room for the description of what is going on, but many still want others to know what their are thinking rather than let someone interpret what their doing.
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By the same token, should I be penalized by someone that would have trouble killing a rat but pretends to be maxed in everything?
Of course not, but that is not a trouble with completely RPing the battle, that is a problem with someone wanting to come in and be the star of the incident. I blame single person games and standard RPGs for that expectation... a whole world full of people and yet, not a single useful thing happens until you come along, at least from your perspective... It often means many of the players coming into PS have a self centered view of how the game progresses.
This is why I say be more selective in who you do those kinds of RP with. Do them with people you know are reasonable.
This is a 3-D game and I find it a little odd that there are some that want to treat it like a text based rpg. There is lots of room for the description of what is going on, but many still want others to know what their are thinking rather than let someone interpret what their doing.
That is often just a matter of not thinking to emote from the perspective of the other character. I think it would be fixed by just telling the other person that there is no way for your character to know those things, but most of the time I don't see it as a large enough problem to bother.
____
However, on a more on topic note, I am having decent success in east Hydlaa. People are stopping by and during European evening I can get a fair bit of RP going. Almost had too many conversations to follow. Let's dispel the myth that there aren't enough people going through there. There are enough people passing by; you just have to catch them. With a bit of patience and initiative, it will be fairly easy to turn that area into a central RP spot where people can for sure find RP... no matter the type of character.
side note: No, not everyone there was RPing with the food I was offering. Other bits of RP branched off easily from that scenario. ;)
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But should they be penalized for not having the time to grind by getting cut out of combat? Also, remember that even the evil character RPers should get to win at times too.
I guess you weren't around when Kisoji and I were at odds. I never won in combat against him. But we were role-playing [...]
should I be penalized by someone that would have trouble killing a rat but pretends to be maxed in everything?
Kisoji ... crazy character, excellent duelist, was always fun to spar with.
Mhm, I think RP fights etc are always about an agreement on both sides. If a weaker character "finds" a way to use Boni's size and weight to her own disadvantage, why should he or she not win a fight? It depends. Also, I like to use the mechanics for friendly sparring session, no matter whether the stats are balanced. That's why I keep many skills untrained and sword partially trained. The only limiting factor should be what both players find entertaining.
side note: No, not everyone there was RPing with the food I was offering. Other bits of RP branched off easily from that scenario. ;)
Good idea to trade food, a pity I could not attend. Advice to new players: Even though too much food can kill you (no kidding here!), the proper amount can provide surprising healing effects, so it really is not as useless now as some people may think.
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\\o//
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Whether or not someone can 'beat' me without the stats in an RP purely depends on how they RP. If their RP tells me they clearly took the time to learn the game, learn the settings and put effort into how they are interacting so it's involving people and not all one sided, I am more than happy to completely ignore stats and let them win (or lose, as the case might be).
I have often 'beaten' highly leveled characters from a no-level alt and never once had any complaints about it due to how I've gone about the RP. On the other hand, if I walked up and said "I stick a dagger in your back and instantly kill you because I am the best dagger fighter ever!!" I'd fully expect to be laughed out of the game, because that just doesn't cut it.
In short, if playing a no-level bad guy, give RP value. Make the experience of losing to you interesting and enjoyable and don't rush to beat 'the good guys.' Plus a quick /tell before you begin generally goes a really long way.
The balance between how much stats and skill levels should or shouldn't be involved in RP is always going to be a tricky one and both sides have strong points in their favour, but when it comes down to it, if both players can't enjoy themselves there is no real point in the RP anyway, so should work together.
I just try to go on 'experience' of the game rather than just levels. Levels are one way to show experience of the game (though not necessarily experience of RPing well). How someone goes about the RP can also show it, and to me that's of equal, if not more, value than the levels themselves.
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Levels are one way to show experience of the game (though not necessarily experience of RPing well). How someone goes about the RP can also show it, and to me that's of equal, if not more, value than the levels themselves.
And keep in mind, our stats may or may not be wiped some day, but our skills in roleplay will hopefully only go up in our time on PS.
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Thanks to the players that stopped by last night. It was a lot of fun. Sarras stirred up controversy, a thief made off with an item, Danao now has a new carving project to work on due to a trade made at the stand, and lots of different people stopped by to look.
If you would like to run something in connection with the stands, say a theft or something to break up the normally scheduled commerce, let me know and we can work something out.
Remember though, it's an open area like any other, you don't have to just stand by a stall forever or wait to buy something then walk away. Even merchants are character with backstories, pet peeves, and things that will make them react in unexpected ways. Broaden out your RP. ;)
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So I myself am still pretty new around here and never could figure out the point of all those stalls in East Hydlaa that no one ever used. I mean, I pass by there all the time and would love it if I had reason to stop and hang out with other characters.
Then, just the other day someone had set up at one of the stalls and was selling various items. I stopped and had a wonderful time chatting as well as buying some books.
So, here's my vote for something to be set up there, however much it's worth. It would be nice to see all those empty stalls with some activity.
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Shafaragorn, and all
on Saturday March 30th the East Hydlaa stalls will be in use again, 10 am to 2 pm Pacific Daylight time, for the magic convention and events. All are invited regardless of skill level in stats. Plenty of rp opportunities!
Please join in!