PlaneShift
Support => Complaint Department => Topic started by: MishkaL1138 on March 25, 2015, 01:42:14 pm
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It has come to my attention that some players (counting myself) can't seemingly express their opinion and ask for an official point of view from the game's lead, without threads getting locked, comments being erased and, probably and in ultimate stance, getting banned for it.
We've been called trolls, accused of disrupting ambiance, of acting OOCly (actually, the ones who define what's OOC and IC in game are the players: that's why PS is supposed to be great, because it takes everyone's two cents... or at least it should). It's tiresome, it's furstrating, gives a bad image and makes you look like a bigot.
So instead of driving players away from your game, man up, open your mind, and accept criticism, suggestions, and what the players actually want. We can't be the change we want to see in PS, if nobody will accept it.
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Freedom of speech gives you the right to express your opinion, but gives me the right to ignore your opinion just as well. So please, let me ignore your opinion when I decide I'm not interested in it. Stop forcing me to listen to you by repeating it wherever I look.
If you want to play PlaneShift, play with the settings. If you want to play against the settings, rather play a different game.
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Ah, yes! As a player I decide that everything you do is OOC and everything I do is IC. Sounds perfectly cromulent.
Bilbous is looking for a menki weewee to graft on in order to assuage his peepee envy. Is trans-speciation within the settings, maybe I should look to implant some dwarf beard hair and ynwnn bosoom whilst I am at it.
Pick your battles where they matter. This is just rolling coal (http://i1.ytimg.com/vi/ArkzSPOGNPs/maxresdefault.jpg) to be obnoxious
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If you're unable of giving a meaningful opinion instead of laughing at someone just to stroke your own ego, I'd say you should refrain from commenting. After all this is a serious complaint. It's not about the content, but about the way it's said.
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A few thoughts.
1.) For quite some time, the "settings" in the united states and some other countries dictated that homosexual marriage was not allowed. So, people made do as they could, and continue to do so. While the climates in this particular region are changing to allow it as a constitutional right, or legally recognized state of partnership, a lot of people see it as a state of personal choice, not a legal right.
Which brings up: Why do we so desperately want to allow it in PlaneShift? What 'rights' would gay characters be receiving? Have the Octarchy made a decree allowing gay characters extra or lesser rights? Or is this simply a battle against the "Marriage Function" button.
Because frankly, there's better ways to go about this if it's just against Settings. Those gay characters would need to go about it in an IC manner, much like the LBGT community has done in real life in countries around the world: Make your voices heard, make it a reality. Why? Because Talad is absolutely correct: The setting that has been laid out is one where it is something that is either not mainstream, frowned upon, or what have you.
I will say this for you once: IF it is simply a matter of changing IG consciousness, we can go about it in a uniquely powerful IG manner. We CAN change the settings, ladies and gents. We have always had that power to some extent in this unique game.
However, if it's a matter of just being pissed about the "Marriage" function button, perhaps it's a twofold fight. We would need to change the IG culture, and then yes, like some of us are doing now, we need to rally to either completely remove the function or allow it to be a non-gender specific function.
So lets clarify where that battle is, first.
I think from what I've gathered so far in parsing over the threads, it's more an issue of the actual coding, which means that we just need to get rid of the marriage action or expand its functions. But that honestly does require a change in settings of some sort, because what if the Octarchy doesn't approve of these marriages? What if they're not going to legally sanction them? Hell, we've roleplayed lesbian and gay marriages for YEARS in planeshift. YEARS. Talad IS right that these are issues that have been beaten on before. Have we ever considered that MUCH like in some countries, it's just not OK by the government?
How are we, as the players of PlaneShift and the In-game characters, going to make it OK. Because we CAN.
See what I'm saying? We can't just shoot blindly from the hip in our rage while we're trying to make things 'fair'. I think we have a golden opportunity in this game and we need to actually go about it properly. This could either turn out really great, or really, really horribly.
Just my two cents.
There're going to be trolls who leap all over this post and say, "U don't even support LBGT bro" or shit like that.
Screw off. I support you representing it properly. Have some pride in what you do. Make a change and be the change. If the settings have dictated it thus far, we can now set our minds on changing the settings.
Wham bam.
[All that to say it's probably easier to remove the damn button. If we want to get married or change a name, we can just have a dev/gm/priest character perform the ceremony, and put in a ticket for a name change if you want. RolePlay, baby!]
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There is no IC setting that forbids gay marriage. It has been stated by the Devs, but in fact, there is nothing in game that indicates to gay marriage being forbidden. And as you correctly stated, gay characters have married in the past and probably will do so in the future.
I think the main problem is the marriage function as it imposes an OOC restriction, an OOC restriction that is solely determined by various conservative views in the Dev team, in my opinion.
If the settings argument is supposed to hold, then please start arresting gay couples in game.
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Yeah if it's settings based, make it concrete yo.
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It has come to my attention that some players (counting myself) can't seemingly express their opinion and ask for an official point of view from the game's lead, without threads getting locked, comments being erased and, probably and in ultimate stance, getting banned for it.
We've been called trolls, accused of disrupting ambiance, of acting OOCly (actually, the ones who define what's OOC and IC in game are the players: that's why PS is supposed to be great, because it takes everyone's two cents... or at least it should). It's tiresome, it's furstrating, gives a bad image and makes you look like a bigot.
So instead of driving players away from your game, man up, open your mind, and accept criticism, suggestions, and what the players actually want. We can't be the change we want to see in PS, if nobody will accept it.
Mishka don't make it so long... you've always voiced your opinions and your RPs loudly even when it skewed up events and you have not been banned for that... do not play victim just because the 99th thread about the same argument has been closed.
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Clearly, it isn't just Mishka expressing these opinions, so please don't make it personal.
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Clearly, it isn't just Mishka expressing these opinions, so please don't make it personal.
yeah ... always the same 3-4 peoples opening the same threads... and Mishka said he had the problem so it was a problem for him
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Well, I know of others who do not dare to post about these issues for fear of being banned. So perhaps the hostile atmosphere relayed by those in charge should change, for once? Not closing all threads opened with respect to that topic would help, for one. After all, many other threads are kept alive and allow for endless necroing, yet it seems that only threads on this topic experience closures.
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Clearly, it isn't just Mishka expressing these opinions, so please don't make it personal.
yeah ... always the same 3-4 peoples opening the same threads... and Mishka said he had the problem so it was a problem for him
I could give you a list of people who have been silenced by means of banning or harassment, actually. It may be my problem this time, but as it happens I share it with a lot more of people, and they do seem to back up not me but my point of view. So yes, don't take it personally, especially when you're a dev and I'm a player (who sometimes collaborates with the team, as if that changed anything), and you're going out to me. Think about the image that's giving.
Donari says it: if you look at the amount of threads with stingy topics that have been opened, you'll see that there's an actively attempt to silence the players demanding a change. Don't want people to voice their opinion? Get rid of the forums. But as long as there are forums where we can voice our concern, people will keep posting this kind of things.
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If you're unable of giving a meaningful opinion instead of laughing at someone just to stroke your own ego, I'd say you should refrain from commenting. After all this is a serious complaint. It's not about the content, but about the way it's said.
Freedom of speech for some but not others, nice.
It isn't a serious complaint because a fatally flawed game feature allows some characters to be trapped in marriages with abandoned characters and not some others. This failed functionality is a direct result of pandering to the players when there were a lot more players and was frequently abused to annoy others. It needs to go the way of the late unlamented /introduce. Noble ideas but impractical.
Why can't I play a deranged trans-humanist? I've done all the BF quests, it has to leave a mark. -- probably why I can't get the dakkru quests...
You are right though, it is only habit that keeps me coming back to these forums and boredom that brings me back to the bug hunt. I abandon 50% of the replies I write before posting.
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Gonna throw this out there: There's a lot of new guests registering on the forum all of a sudden >.>
Not sure what's going on there...I hope no one called a brigade in :(. I actually like this game and like playing it...
And yeah Bilbous is right.
That is all.
I'll shut up now >.>
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Gonna throw this out there: There's a lot of new guests registering on the forum all of a sudden >.>
Not sure what's going on there...
I'll shut up now >.>
Spambots, as usual. They don't actually succeed in registering, though.
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If you're unable of giving a meaningful opinion instead of laughing at someone just to stroke your own ego, I'd say you should refrain from commenting. After all this is a serious complaint. It's not about the content, but about the way it's said.
Freedom of speech for some but not others, nice.
It isn't a serious complaint because a fatally flawed game feature allows some characters to be trapped in marriages with abandoned characters and not some others. This failed functionality is a direct result of pandering to the players when there were a lot more players and was frequently abused to annoy others. It needs to go the way of the late unlamented /introduce. Noble ideas but impractical.
Why can't I play a deranged trans-humanist? I've done all the BF quests, it has to leave a mark. -- probably why I can't get the dakkru quests...
You are right though, it is only habit that keeps me coming back to these forums and boredom that brings me back to the bug hunt. I abandon 50% of the replies I write before posting.
I'm all for your freedom of speech, but don't derail threads just for the hell of it, especially out of the Hydlaa Plaza section (you know, the OOC section!)
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Seemed perfectly on topic to me, opening with an exaggerated paraphrase of
actually, the ones who define what's OOC and IC in game are the players
Then a shout-out to the T in the LGBT you claim to be agitating on behalf of and finishing with the advice that this isn't worth your time as the only way to win this is to have the functionality removed, if that can even be called a win.
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Seemed perfectly on topic to me, opening with an exaggerated paraphrase of actually, the ones who define what's OOC and IC in game are the players
Then a shout-out to the T in the LGBT you claim to be agitating on behalf of and finishing with the advice that this isn't worth your time as the only way to win this is to have the functionality removed, if that can even be called a win.
I don't get your post. Can you clarify a little on what you mean?
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Everything I wrote in my first reply related directly to something in the original post or the threads that inspired it. How could that not be on topic?
Everything that followed built from that post in response to objections raised by subsequent posters.
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As I responded to the second locked thread yesterday, I waited for an official response which has been posted by Eonwind and Talad. I have perhaps four relevant points to add, if I may?
1) If responses are from the "same" 3 or 4 "trolls" than I supposed Roled is included in that category- a discounting name-calling technique I personally find offensive. Beside that , even "trolls" get to talk... In game I use the "block feature" for people I don't want to speak with- in the forums, I often but not always simply skip reading posts from people whose opinions don't interest me. Feel free to discontinue reading my posts if you think I fit into your exclusionary category.
2) http://www.newnownext.com/gamers-threaten-to-pull-50-convention-if-indiana-gov-signs-anti-gay-bill-into-law/03/2015/
This is why this issue is important . It is not JUST PS, it is what one is willing to defend in the world at large. How can we tell our friends, "I play this game but it's homophobic, but I play it anyway?"
This game is NOT a representation of "medieval" times- as several have pointed out, we do not have open sewage to contend with, orphaned children do not fill the streets, nor so far have I heard of female avatars being burned at the stake for learning herbalism. The reference to "historic realism" represents a specious argument.
3) In answer to Cairn's comments, and Eonwind's comments, and others, this is the post I entered on the first of the locked threads. Please consider I wrote this 3 days ago
{from 3-23-2015} "Since I play a gay elf, married and widowed in PS, and have for 8 years, I offer my tiny opinions. First, from a rp level, events like marriages are useful in a social role playing game, as occasions to gather without gore. Birthdays are understated in the Dome since PS does not have and perhaps discourages child characters. Deaths, true deaths, are governmental and the result of major crimes, so perhaps not as festive as an occasion. Guilds are so slim, there are hardly any Guild based parties.
Second, from a "realism" level, tho' Ebon's cynicism is evident, the point is that from a settings standpoint there is no ethical morality in PS- we murder and hack and eviscerate to our hearts and stats content. Since there is no moral underpinning to the settings, beyond requirements of PG legalities, there is no settings reason to have marriage at all as a mechanics option. Rp can be rp. Just don't do it in the streets and scare the horses.
Third, a paradigm of inclusiveness. Were this game being played 150 years ago to 75 years ago in the USA, there would be slaves of color and indentured laborers and female models would have no jobs nor any social status, and older characters or poor characters would be limited to poor farms, and mounts would be ridden to death then slaughtered for glue, since those were the social norms. Social norms change. In our global reality now, more and more nations, religions, laws, sects and peoples have determined that gender identity is not a factor that limits one's humanity nor one's rights to full human status. As our society advances, as theology and philosophy advance, the definitions of sentient beings and equality become more inclusive. So on a global evolutionary level, marriages become agreements to partnerships that are lasting and binding and carry both emotional and social status and recognition.
So by all means let's get rid of the marriage button and simply rp the stories, realities and fantasies of equality in this experimental world view.
Thanks for listening."
4) Finally for this comment from me. I told some player friends last night ig that this is the first time I've felt unwelcome in PS. I now feel quite unwelcome by the organizing powers. However, in game, some suggestions arose.... May I suggest you look in game in the next week or so for IC response to this issue. I do have a pm here in the forums -" Roled"- feel free to pm me if you're interested.
This is not an inconsequential issue- it is not an issue of "a few trolls." If we replace the words "same sex" marriage with "interracial" marriage or "inter religious" marriage, I would hope people of good conscious would continue to press for open discussion and resist discriminaton. Some people vote with their feet, but that strategy in my opinion does not actually solve problems nor create change. As the Zen koan states, "In order to break the mold, first you must fit it."
I am trying to be civil.
Respectfully submitted,
Roled Rolak
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[You're are OOC... Please stop] :ban:
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[You're are OOC... Please stop] :ban:
I don't think you know where you are.
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[You're are OOC... Please stop] :ban:
Yes, this is an OOC (out of character) discussion on the forum (which is not part of the planeshift game world). We are speaking with one another as players, not as our characters hence we do not need to limit this conversation to what our characters know. Likewise, our characters would be incapable of participating in this discussion in the first place as they do not have computers or internet access. ( nor would they have any reason to search for this place )
If you are referring to Roled's character, then no. His character is not OOC. If you think he is, then I encourage you to demonstrate why in another thread unless you feel that such a point would be on topic.
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Just to clear things up, that some people have the same preference IG and OOC
I am queer and so is Siteya...although she has more lesbian tendencies.
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LigH- former guild mate and still, I hope, friend- your comment...
Freedom of speech gives you the right to express your opinion, but gives me the right to ignore your opinion just as well. So please, let me ignore your opinion when I decide I'm not interested in it. Stop forcing me to listen to you by repeating it wherever I look.
If you want to play PlaneShift, play with the settings. If you want to play against the settings, rather play a different game.
In the USA when hundreds of thousands of students protested the Vietnam War, such words were hurled at them- suggesting a permanent trip to Canada. And in the Civil Rights struggle, when people protested being called "negroes" and the other words, the response from Jim Crow was "If you love Africa so much, go back to where you belong." In Germany, do I really need to remind you of your own history?
If I want to play in the virtual country of our/your community but find a particular enforced settings reality that discriminates against me abhorrent, are you REALLY suggesting I do not belong in PS? Is my virtual 'difference' so appalling to you, really?
Your once and future virtual friend,
RR
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Roled, there are so many different topics. Therefore there are so many different decisions which of them interest me how much. I'm trying hard to decide well which topic is worth listening to, for me, because it belongs to me or to many, and which is not, for me, because it misses a target on purpose.
I am indeed interested in activities against discrimination of minorities. In our world, in real life. But to me, it doesn't make sense to transfer problems of this world into another world where they don't fit. It wouldn't make sense to protest against fracking or TTIP inside Yliakum. In my opinion, demanding support for "unusual" sexual orientation in PlaneShift doesn't make much sense either because it is not the main topic of this game at all.
When I play PlaneShift, I would rather want to see topics related to the world and society of Yliakum covered in roleplaying plots. Aren't relations between humanoids and felines or between aquatic and terrestrial elves much more important for characters in Yliakum? I don't see any technical limits implemented regarding marriages between races where receiving offsprings would be most improbable (with the exception of Kran which are obviously enough different enough). Did that ever cause a shitstorm? Why not ... because that topic would not provoke enough trolling?
I just don't like such false implications. "You don't allow homo marriages, therefore you must be discriminating them" is just as wrong in game settings and code implementation as they are in the German language. Nouns have a gender in my language because the language developed that way, not because we want to discriminate people who don't match the gender of a word describing e.g. their profession. Limiting a speech to the use of only one gender does not mean to discriminate the other, it only means to keep the speech fluent and reduce complexity. Same for software implementations: Less probable constellations are not ignored to discriminate them, but to reduce the complexity of the code, to avoid bugs caused by higher complexity. You already know how to circumvent these limits: Ignore the technical implementation.
Why do I reply here at all. It will only attract the language surgeons who are only interested in how my opinion could be misinterpreted and abused for scolding me. No matter how I would try to explain myself, there will always be people who find a nit to pick on. Even if that means to wander from the subject. And Roled, I do not even mean you, primarily.
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I am indeed interested in activities against discrimination of minorities. In our world, in real life. But to me, it doesn't make sense to transfer problems of this world into another world where they don't fit. It wouldn't make sense to protest against fracking or TTIP inside Yliakum. In my opinion, demanding support for "unusual" sexual orientation in PlaneShift doesn't make much sense either because it is not the main topic of this game at all.
There is no TTIP in Yliakum. There are gay relationships. And unusual? Just take a look in game, it is not -unusual-.
When I play PlaneShift, I would rather want to see topics related to the world and society of Yliakum covered in roleplaying plots. Aren't relations between humanoids and felines or between aquatic and terrestrial elves much more important for characters in Yliakum? I don't see any technical limits implemented regarding marriages between races where receiving offsprings would be most improbable (with the exception of Kran which are obviously enough different enough). Did that ever cause a shitstorm? Why not ... because that topic would not provoke enough trolling?
Races, excluding Kran, can interbreed just fine. Also, you calling our legitimate complaints trolling is a little below the belt, don't you think? Let's stay fair.
Why do I reply here at all. It will only attract the language surgeons who are only interested in how my opinion could be misinterpreted and abused for scolding me. No matter how I would try to explain myself, there will always be people who find a nit to pick on. Even if that means to wander from the subject. And Roled, I do not even mean you, primarily.
Don't play the victim card, nobody is trying to harm you.
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I start to feel being unusual because I play this game as a straight hetero... ;) <= This was sarcastic. In case someone missed that.
Races can interbreed. Roleplayed. There are no real children supported by the game mechanics. This is no reason to complain. / Gays can marry. Roleplayed. There are no gay marriages supported by the game mechanics. Why is this a reason to complain, instead?
^ Added a chapter.
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There is no OOC mechanism that relates to having children, there is one to marrying only people of the same gender, easy as that.
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And it was implemented for technical reasons. Not for discrimination.
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Everybody please calm down. It has been said repeatedly that there are technical reasons, but no discrimination for the way the marriage button works. Let's not make more of it than there really is.
Still, we should think about whether and with how much effort it is possible to change this, but meanwhile just keep RPing your sexual orientation and identity any way you please.
I believe it was a mistake to delete several messages on this subject, even though they were mainly repetitions of things that had been said before again and again. If you are not interested in some specific thread, just ignore it, but by all means let others speak their mind. After all, it is a minor annoyance (when people repeat their opinions).
Peace, Gonger.
PS My apologies if some of what I said has been repeated x times before or has been made obsolete, but I do not have the time and energy right now to read all those posts in detail. But with some luck I will soon have solved my hard RL quest "The Search for a New Job"! ;D
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I just don't like such false implications. "You don't allow homo marriages, therefore you must be discriminating them" is just as wrong in game settings and code implementation as they are in the German language. Nouns have a gender in my language because the language developed that way, not because we want to discriminate people who don't match the gender of a word describing e.g. their profession. Limiting a speech to the use of only one gender does not mean to discriminate the other, it only means to keep the speech fluent and reduce complexity.
This is very off topic. The people who are complaining here would not be the people complaining about language discrimination, if such a thing exists.
Same for software implementations: Less probable constellations are not ignored to discriminate them, but to reduce the complexity of the code, to avoid bugs caused by higher complexity. You already know how to circumvent these limits: Ignore the technical implementation.
This is where you are wrong. The code would be simplified by allowing same-sex marriages. Currently lines are added on to specify which type of marriage is allowed. The code Donari posted looks very easy to manipulate and simplify. I could understand it and my level of coding is noob at best.
And it was implemented for technical reasons. Not for discrimination.
This is true, however, given that this is 2015 and not 2005, it could be interpreted as discrimination to allow marriage between heterosexual couples while denying marriage between homosexual couples. And considering that the code could be easily fixed by either allowing any player to marry any other player or otherwise removing the code completely, refusing to change the code could be seen as ignoring the wishes of the majority of the community. And it very obviously makes some players feel unwelcome.
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This is very off topic. The people who are complaining here would not be the people complaining about language discrimination, if such a thing exists.
You are very off topic Sarras/Volki. Actually you all are off topic since the topic is about complains for not being allowed to speak... which is very funny and ridiculous since the same people complaining about that have just filled pages and pages about things that have been already addressed enough times.
Not to mention the fun fact many of the would-be-complainer have actually managed to collected enough in-game infractions and bans to deserve a lifetime ban in any other game (including commercial ones) but they've never received.
Looks like their freedom to speak is healthy and in good shape.
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Again. Some of us are legitimately and peacefully arguing a point.
The few of us mudslinging, please stop.
I would be down with locking this thread and just starting up a request for the feature to be removed, however >.>
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Not to mention the fun fact many of the would-be-complainer have actually managed to collected enough in-game infractions and bans to deserve a lifetime ban in any other game (including commercial ones) but they've never received.
I've never been banned from any other game I've played, and my behavior is far worse on other games than it is here. I'm forced to be someone I'm not here. A number of times I have been banned and kicked for rules that do not exist in other games. So it's no wonder that a number of us would have infractions.
Nice ad hominem, by the way. Let's stay on the topic that posters in the thread wish to discuss.