The \"abuse\" to which I was refering was those inevitable cases where someone PKs someone, and then changes their flag to avoid retaliation.  If they had to go to a particular place, and perhaps pay a fee when they got there, that would all but eliminate it.

There is a certain roleplay logic to going to the temple to change certain character attributes.  It could just as easily be a player-killer\'s hall, or some random stretch of empty desert, but the temple makes sense on many philosophical levels.

Yes, all this would be possible with a different system.  Just sitting here and giving it some tiny amount of thought I can devise many, many different possible ways to implement and regulate player killing.  Each one has different effects on the gameplay mechanics and roleplay atmosphere.  My purpose here is to discuss the different aspects and see if there is a hybrid system that would be acceptable to people.

Now, unless I\'m misinterpreting what I\'m reading, many of the people who are putting forth ideas are suggesting some variation of a system where it is possible to commit crimes, but relatively difficult to get away with them without some hideous punishment.  That could definitely work.

The other possibility I\'m seeing bouncing around is that we somehow differentiate between PKers and nonPKers.  There are three basic methods for doing this.  Separate servers, more PK areas on the maps so players can fight, or some kind of option for whether people are PKers or not.  Any of these three could definitely work.  Separate servers would require another server and would prevent any interaction between the groups.  In my opinion, that is inferior to the other two which allow the two groups to talk and trade back and forth, but that could be argued either way.

Overall I would be more in favour of the crime and punishment idea, just because I like that kind of game more, and if it\'s done right, it would be acceptable to both PKers and nonPKers.  However, having done some AI programming myself, I am well aware that doing it right will take a lot of time and a fairly sturdy server.  If the programmers don\'t want to do that much work, (I wouldn\'t blame them), or can\'t make it run fast enough,  then either the separate areas, or the PK flag would give almost the same result.  The mechanics would be a little different, but the nonPK players would be just as safe, and the PK players could have 99% as much fun, without stressing the programmers or the system.

Well, given the fact that you don\'t lose all your stuff when you die, (I think it would be interesting if you did, but then I\'m something of a masochist...) I wouldn\'t think that someone who just walked up and killed you would be able to take any of it.

I might suggest adding the ability to wager items to the current duel system.  That might make it more interesting.

You\'re misunderstanding what I meant by player killer guild.  Wyvern is a MUD.  The guilds are fixed, and joining them alters your character\'s abilities.  If you join the PK guild, you are then allowed to kill other members of the PK guild wherever and whenever you find them.  You still cannot touch non-guild players.  Attacking people in a city is still a crime, but PK criminals may be hunted by other PK guild members.  Though, as I said, the guards usually get them first.  It seems to work fairly well.  The competitive players get to be competitive, and the non-competitive players get left alone.

The guards would not have to be any more intelligent than the average monster should be.  Enough pathfinding skills to walk around a couple corners, and a zone that they stay in.  Make them extremely difficult to kill, and add an annoying tendency for more to teleport in if things are going badly for them.  Arm them with steel-mesh nets to throw on people to catch them when they get close, and post them in locations that a wanted criminal will have to walk past if he wants to do more than skulk in some back alley somewhere.

What to do with criminals who log off whenever they\'re attacked...  Now that\'s an interesting question.  The AI guards wouldn\'t have a problem with it, since, when he signs back in, he\'ll still be standing in front of them...  I can think of several solutions for the bounty hunters...  Ranging from the simple to the extremely complicated...

Simple is to make it so that your character sticks around for a little while after you log off.  Not forever, just like a minute or so.  This would add a tiny bit of realism, since you couldn\'t expect to be safe if you sign off in the middle of a fight in a dungeon, and it would give the bounty hunters a chance to finish off the cowards who like to run.

Complicated ranges from setting traps that they will trigger when they return, to some kind of notification when they come back, to the ability to hire AI mercenaries to wait for him.

*holds head while trying to figure out the quoted quotes and such*

Ok.  I have played games with NPC Guards and bounty hunters.  It seems to work fairly well.  The reason for not insta-teleporting people to jail is simple.  If you do that, then there is no way to get away with committing a crime.  If there\'s no way to get away with it, then practically nobody will ever do it, making the whole system a waste of the programmer\'s time...  I have led the guards on many a merry chase in a couple other games, matching my human intelligence against their enhanced speed and invincibility...  They always managed to catch me in the end.  Some other human would tend to trip me up just long enough for them to grab me, but it was always fun while it lasted.  Most of these scenarios resulted from a mistyped command, or a bug in the game.  If I\'d been insta-teleported to prison I would have become extremely frustrated in a very short length of time.  Escape from prison was also posible, though doing so was difficult and added to your prison time when you were recaptured...  But hey, some people seem to enjoy that kind of thing...

The big thing is that there should be some safe zones, where either you cannot attack other players, or where there are enough guards standing around that doing so would be sheer lunacy.  That would let those who are not interested in combat with other players avoid it.  

Second alternative would be to allow people to decide when they create a character whether it will be a PK character or not.  If it is, then they can attack and be attacked at will, otherwise it\'s safe.  Perhaps have an option to convert between the two at the temple for a hefty price...

There are some decent ideas in here, and some odd ones.

To start with, instant marking, and no looting would make it fairly pointless to ever pk.  I mean, you can\'t possibly get away with it, and you don\'t get anything out of it, so why bother unless your whole goal in life is to torment others?  There is talk at some point of players being able to give up an item to skip having to travel through the death realm.  It might be an interesting idea to give that item to the pker...  Though smart people wouldn\'t give up an item when they\'d been pked...

If we\'re going to do any of this, then assault should definitely be a punishable crime.  That gets rid of the problems with people attacking just to harass people and stopping short of killing them.

Being stuck on the wall and having to get back out of the DR if you die to finish your sentence isn\'t a bad idea...  Though the idea of forced labour has merit as well...  Perhaps the ability for people to put those who are stuck on the wall to work at specific tasks like mining...  I don\'t know for sure.  I would like to see this game develop a realistic, stable economy.  Slave labour from captured criminals could be part of that...

Lots to think about here...  Unfortunately, the only way I can think of to find out if most of this will work would be to test it and see...  So It\'s probably a long way off.

That brings up a few questions...

Firstly, if you\'re not guilty, then how did you end up on the wall?  and how many innocent players will simply quit and not come back?

Secondly, the problem with the insta-teleport system is that if there\'s absolutely no way to ever get away with a crime, then what\'s the point in allowing them to be committed?  I mean, it could be fun to play an outlaw and try to outsmart the guards and the headhunters.  But the only people who would be interested in killing players if they get instantly punished would be griefers who like to kill newbies for fun...

Well now, attacking someone and not killing them could be a crime...  it\'s called assault.  Might also add \"public endangerment\" for the people who like to set traps and such in the main square.

Personally I think they system should try to be realistic.  The real world usually does a fairly good job, as long as the justice system is not corrupt.  Having the computer do the trials, and reserving human judgement for appeals should do a fair job of taking care of that.  Then it becomes a case of, \"Don\'t walk down any dark alleyways late at night.\"  And the conflict with real people would tend to enhance the experience, since you could hunt something that would actually have some brains...

The other thing to do would be to institute a \"Player Killer\'s Guild\" and allow open PK between members...  That would give people a chance to opt out if they weren\'t interested.

GMs or some other appointed judges could review cases which have only human witnesses.  Or, make it so that when one witnesses a crime, one has the option to report it next time one finds a guard.  Provided, of course, that one has not been killed in the meantime.  That would probably be a better option as it would place less strain on the GMs.  Save their time for appeals of complicated cases involving revenge, preemptive self-defence, and that kind of thing.  This would also bring up the possibility of blackmail if a crime is witnessed by a human...  He could threaten to report it if he\'s not paid...  Should therefore be a \"statute of limitations\" on reporting crimes, like a week or so, to keep it from getting out of hand.  Of course, the blackmail target could always simply kill the blackmailer...  

Might be a good idea to make the guards tend to gravitate toward high crime areas to a limited extent as well.  Would force criminals to occasionally change ambush spots...