Illegal activities such as thievery and murder (in other words, open PvP) do not belong in the game so long as it still lacks effective law enforcement to prevent/discourage it (in other words, town guard, and quite powerful, at that). Otherwise, you would be correct to say that criminal characters would become a \"killjoy.\"

P.S.- To quote, surround the quoted text by quote tags like so: [quote][/quote].

Originally posted by Gravalden
think about it.... if you make it to where any one can attack you at any time and take your stuff every one would be attacking each other not monsters cuz well you would get better loot off of players..... now what you could do is make a /command that turns on and off pk.... you could only pk some one that has it on... simply by changeing the color of the player name from green to red to let people know who has pk on and who doesn\'t... this would keep the newbies save every where and any one else that does not want to be attacked by other players.. i do believe that is why they placed the duels system in game......

you all just can\'t settel with haveing to ask for a fight between players you just wanna run up and kill them with no warning or anything.. thats just greedy and mean......

Thank you
Gravalden

Greedy and mean? Perhaps. Not all of us want to roleplay perfect saints, altruistic vessels of the forces of good, every single time. That is quite the point. Roleplaying. Yes, some characters are greedy and mean. That is no reason to take it out on the players. The problem is that people are always putting a \"=\" between \"player\" and \"character.\" A character is not a projection of oneself into the game world, and treating it as such is not roleplaying. Granted, some traits, indeed, perhaps many, are likely to find their way from a player into the character that he/she creates. This helps to create a believable character. But no matter how alike they may be, the character is not the player.

Aside from that, players would not be fighting each other constantly if there was a powerful town guard to arrest or execute offenders.

Originally posted by Ivniciix
quote:

The the idea that the structure of the game should eliminate perfectly reasonable possibilities to protect players\' right to use a public server without roleplaying with other players is childish, naive, and entirely unreasonable.
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Why is it unreasonable, when there are dozens of other games designed and/or broadly allowing non-consentual PvP, for some one to want to make a game without it?

I believe it is unreasonable to exclude it from a game because it is a fact of life (although one that most societies do their best to make as rare as possible) and is vital to a more believable game world.

As for childish, that does in fact describe most people I\'ve met on open PvP servers in other games.

Yes, but is expecting to use a public server as if it were private not childish, or, at the very least, foolish?

Naive is thinking that anything other than a system that deals harshly, unremitingly and consistently with open PvP will be anything other than a gank-fest. To do so - treat PvP as possible but extremely hard to do without dire and immediate negative consequences - IS realistic.

\"Gank-fest,\" as you put it, is an apt description, which is why I suggested what I did. That is, not a system built into the game itself, but into the game world, and possible to circumvent or simply ignore if you are skilled or strong enough (which should be incredibly difficult to achieve). I should add that even the most skilled and strongest would not last long with the whole of several cities on their trail.

quote:

Read my post. I just did.
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Umm...barely I\'d say and certainly without any contribution to actually fleshing out the details of those consequences. If non-consentual PvP is ever to be part of PS, I think that\'s the direction any conversation about it needs to go in.

\"Barely,\" yes. I was not aiming for a doctoral thesis, but merely offering the bare bones of what such a system would entail. To say that I offered no contribution to actually fleshing out the details of those consequences is wholly inaccurate. Did I not say that, ideally, guards would seek the death of a PKer and confiscate their possessions? Simplistic, yes, but solid on a basic level.

As for describing a system that \"otherwise makes (non-consentual PvP) literally impossible, try to think of it (Earning the Right to PvP posts) as a detailed \"bargaining\" position subject to \"negotiation\" as equally detailed counter proposals are made.  It\'s \"Why?\" on steroids with a big dose of \"How\" thrown in! :)

I heartily disagree with the concept of earning the \"right\" to PvP. The system suggested there, again, makes it literally impossible to do any PvP at all until that point (not theoretically impossible, because of Town Guard interferance). Ideally, the Guard would make it anything but feasible, but it would be possible. If you are concerned about PKing on roads, consider that, as the Planeshift community grows, it will become increasingly unlikely to find oneself alone with another PC on a main road (and a PKer would thereafter find it difficult to come near a city where (s)he had been reported and escape with his/her life). As for killing in secluded areas, that did happen, and was successful often enough; furthermore, truely evil characters, not simply those that are the projections of childish players, and therefore the only ones who might put so much thought and effort into it, are as rare as such people actually are/were. As you said, only the best, often members of some sort of organization or secret society, would last for long; but in this case, it would happen naturally, based on the structure of society within the game world, and players would not have the jarring realization that things that should technically be \"possible\" are, in fact, not possible in any way. I have played evil characters in games such as Baldur\'s Gate, and while I did do some thievery and some murder in that context, I did not do it openly, nor indiscriminately, because I was afraid of finding myself hunted and slain by Enforcers. That is what I am looking for, here, not a world of total anarchy where the weakest and newest players cannot possibly survive, which would be the case if open PvP were implimented now; the game is not ready for it. But it should happen, eventually.

I originally posted this on the \"PKing is essential.\" thread, but as this seems the best, most \"official\" thread on the topic, I will put it here.

Originally posted by Karii_Winterwalker

Quote

Originally posted by dying_inside
ummm... i would have to strongly disagree.  pking, yes itis fun but noits not essential.  if you just want to pk then you might as well play an action game rather than an rpg....

Perhaps you\'re right, if the \"role\" that you are playing is that of a person living in a world that defies the laws of nature (not physics; that is another thing entirely, and obviously, this is fantasy). How can one be an assassin if the best one can accomplish is to walk about asking targets \"Will you let me try to kill you?\" It is, quite simply, laughable. Currently, there is no dauntingly powerful town guard to apprehend criminals who are caught, so obviously this may pose something of a problem, and more obviously, players would whine to no end if they could be killed by a player they had not decided to duel, and could do nothing about it. To say that PKing is not a valid part of an RPG, however, is as devoid of common sense as saying the same of powerleveling. The essence is in the roleplaying, and so long as that requirement is met, everything else becomes not only acceptable, but appropriate, indeed an \"essential\" part of the game world, as those roles do indeed naturally exist, whether discouraged, tolerated, or encouraged.

I would actually be rather put out if I never needed to deal with an unsought attack or other unexpcted danger or situation, and it became clear that it was never intended that I would. What role is so sheltered that one does and has done to them only exactly what they choose, and who would honestly enjoy playing such a role? To be blunt, that would be pathetically boring, and I would be inclined to spend a large ammount of my time in Yliakum using it as a chat room, as I do now (and also as a testing grounds for the project, and it is currently exactly that). That is the current situation, but hardly a goal worthy of Talad\'s vision.

The game as it is, as has been stated many a time, is still in the very early stages of developement, and many things one might expect of a finished game are nowhere to be seen, and most of these are rather distant prospects. There is no organized society in Planeshift, no vast cities, no living politics, no wars and treaties, no NPC-run guilds with their own agendas, no schools, no houses, no live and shifting economy, no black market, no thieves, no assassins, no law enforcement, no laws...in short, none of the thrilling sense of a real, other world that is implied by the goals set for Planeshift as it has been described. It is a tech demo, and cannot yet support such things; but to say that they should never be included is...*shakes her head* I haven\'t the word for it. Depressingly cynical and bland, perhaps.

Originally posted by dying_inside
ummm... i would have to strongly disagree.  pking, yes itis fun but noits not essential.  if you just want to pk then you might as well play an action game rather than an rpg....

Perhaps you\'re right, if the \"role\" that you are playing is that of a person living in a world that defies the laws of nature (not physics; that is another thing entirely, and obviously, this is fantasy). How can one be an assassin if the best one can accomplish is to walk about asking targets \"Will you let me try to kill you?\" It is, quite simply, laughable. Currently, there is no dauntingly powerful town guard to apprehend criminals who are caught, so obviously this may pose something of a problem, and more obviously, players would whine to no end if they could be killed by a player they had not decided to duel, and could do nothing about it. To say that PKing is not a valid part of an RPG, however, is as devoid of common sense as saying the same of powerleveling. The essence is in the roleplaying, and so long as that requirement is met, everything else becomes not only acceptable, but appropriate, indeed an \"essential\" part of the game world, as those roles do indeed naturally exist, whether discouraged, tolerated, or encouraged.

I would actually be rather put out if I never needed to deal with an unsought attack or other unexpcted danger or situation, and it became clear that it was never intended that I would. What role is so sheltered that one does and has done to them only exactly what they choose, and who would honestly enjoy playing such a role? To be blunt, that would be pathetically boring, and I would be inclined to spend a large ammount of my time in Yliakum using it as a chat room, as I do now (and also as a testing grounds for the project, and it is currently exactly that). That is the current situation, but hardly a goal worthy of Talad\'s vision.

The game as it is, as has been stated many a time, is still in the very early stages of developement, and many things one might expect of a finished game are nowhere to be seen, and most of these are rather distant prospects. There is no organized society in Planeshift, no vast cities, no living politics, no wars and treaties, no NPC-run guilds with their own agendas, no schools, no houses, no live and shifting economy, no black market, no thieves, no assassins, no law enforcement, no laws...in short, none of the thrilling sense of a real, other world that is implied by the goals set for Planeshift as it has been described. It is a tech demo, and cannot yet support such things; but to say that they should never be included is...*shakes her head* I haven\'t the word for it. Depressingly cynical and bland, perhaps.

I would like to be able to name and describe the weapons myself, actually (and though I can see how this might be a problem, it is hardly more offensive that the characters with descriptions that read \"You evaluate that is the most powerful being in all of Yliakum.\") . I don\'t want someone to pick up a weapon I made and say \"wow, a frosty longsword,\" because \"OMFG, \'Hand of Winter\'?!?!\" (not that I won\'t be keeping that one, if I ever make it...) while annoying in its wording, is a good deal more flattering. I want fame as a weaponsmith. *grins*

Originally posted by Seytra
because PP are very hard to come by, and essentially swapped relevance with tria.
Due to that, the return to the trainer is less of a hassle than actually getting the required PP to increaso one skill.

This is simply not true. I frequently find myself with thousands of PP on which I have not the tria to spend. The only reprieve in this is finding the occasional jewel encrusted longsword of ways that will fetch well over 50,000 tria from a vendor.

However, because it is easier to gain overall power by concurrently increasing multiple skills (i.e., weapon and armor) instead of pushing one first and then the other, the effect is that I\'m at about the same level in all skills I care about.

I believe that was his point. You don\'t care about all of those skills exactly equally, do you?

Originially posted by Seytra
I\'m not being elitist at all. I am just stating that not everyone is acceptable in PS. Not everyone\'s way to play MMORPGs fits here, so \"they are players, too\" doesn\'t quite cut it.

I am forced to agree. Zanzibar, it has been clearly stated that the developers\' vision for this game does not include that sort of behavior, and in fact specifically excludes it. Therefore, that sort of behavior is \"not wanted here.\" Such people are not playing the game the way that it was meant to be played.

Originally posted by zanzibar

Quote

Originally posted by Seytra
No, it itn\'t. However, it is completely obvious that RPers will also become strong warriors.

That is objectively false.

I\'m afraid it isn\'t. True roleplaying does not simply use Planeshift as a vaguely in-character chat room. There are a number of roleplayers (myself formerly among them, before I restarted to dispel that obnoxious fixed-mana bug that would have prevented me from becoming a decent Blue mage, hardly acceptable for Lady Winter) whose characters have also become quite powerful. In the time since I generated a new character, I have made quite some progress, despite spending most of the past few days in the tavern or in the plaza.

Originally posted by zanzibar
It\'s ENTIRELY possible to power level without resorting to out of character communications!

Indeed it is. Taken at its most literal, \"power-leveling\" lies entirely within the scope of roleplaying, assuming that one\'s character is the type to have the drive necessary for that. I am not sure how Seytra is getting the impression that it isn\'t so.

Originally posted by hereticalfaction
Our charachters are the heroic elite of the fantasy world they occupy.

This is not unrealistic. Take the word \"roleplay\" at its most literal, and what do you have?

No, your right... \"roleplaying\" to most people means typing cybernetic renfaire babble into a chat client. And if there are no game mandated interdependancies between charachters, this is all roleplaying can be.

I could choose to be insulted by this, but that would be foolish. I know that anyone saying this, in all likelihood, simply needs more inspiration for imagination, and is most probably more \"grounded,\" as it were, than one like me. But let\'s do avoid that lengthy chat, shall we? That really is not the topic of discussion, here.

No, but as an editorial decision the developers of this game have decided that a \"healthy in-game economy\" is one of their central goals. Economy of any type imlpies an imbalance of dissimmillar resources between differrent persons groups or localities, otherwise trade is pointless. IMO, PS just like all other games I have tried is falling into the trap of having a modern monetised economy where what stands for money is backed with perfect confidence. Making/gathering stuff and selling it for cash, cash which is immune to inflation default, counterfeit, or for now theft or loss of any kind is a silly way to engender an active economy.

This is true, to a degree. However, much as there are vertical mergers that result in divisions of a single company operating in all stages of production, it is possible for a single person to collect and/or produce resources for any given task, rather than limiting him/herself to mass-producing things that he/she does not need. Now, of course, if said mass-production was useful to others who did not have that skill, this would be plausible (indeed preferable for society and the economy as a whole, as we modernites well know). But it quite simply is not. In planeshift, mostly, if one needs ore, one learns to mine. Therein lies the problem, perhaps? But there are far too many disparate skills to classify and diversify properly. I doubt that everyone will go so far as to craft their own armor and weapons, and so, as the game progresses, the problem may well fix itself.

Originally posted by Quietus_Silivren
@Karii: You are so cruel...

*looks innocent* What?