Question on rp

[Stydracos]

Originally posted by Gronomist
or if the GM is in a very nasty mood, you wont be able to communicate at all, period.

Hehe a chance for a player to roleplay as a mute.

Anyway it sounds good, hopefully the GM\'s will be strict, fair and on call .

The GM\'s won\'t be able to try to govern how we play though right? I mean within reason they couldn\'t say ohh.. I don\'t know... make us rp because they are passionate about it in their personal beliefs?.

[Golbez]

For starters, I never said powerleveling or zero RolePlaying is \"boring\". Not once I claimed that in these few posts.

Although I coincidentially find those activities to be lacking in interest, I do point out that it is my personal opinion.

I am a punctilious and meticulous person. I do find a difference between \"X is boring.\" and \"*I* think that X is boring\".

To answer your two questions, Adeli (Because they were two, not one ): I speak from personal experience in online gaming. I have formed part of many communities and have picked up a bit of empiric knowledge here and there. So I claim what I view as true. I do not and will never declare that my side of the story is an universal truth. I am aware of the possibility of being very, very wrong, because there is an infinite number of variables involved that the human mind cannot possibly consider all at once.

I then answer the second question. No, I know not what every person in the world with access to the online gaming experience wants or enjoys. It is a pointless rhetoric question, because nobody does. I do not know, neither do you, or even the staff. Therefore if you planned on using that simple question to solidify your version, it merely backfired.

Now, back on topic and having cleared up a statement that I never said, nor implied.

There is a huge difference, and anyone can notice it straight-away, in playing a game like Baldur\'s Gate or NeverWinter Nights in single-player mode and multi-player.

I never had the experience, myself, not counting with the necessary equipment to play in multiplayer mode without repeatedly banging my head against the desk due to the frustration of suffering from such a sluggy connection.

I have heard good critics about NWN servers in which if you do not roleplay, you are booted. People who want to barge in and kill everything in sight with their level 19 barbarians are not allowed. And sure, they do not have fun.

Then again, the server is not aimed to please them. The -game itself- is not aimed to please those who want action, action, action and more action. And Baldur\'s Gate is the same way.

The fact that you have to read a +200 pages manual if you want to exploit the game and master it pretty much hints you how elitist the makers are about their clients.

I can tell you with relative precision why we see the vast amount of powerlevellers and non-RPers in an RPG (There will always be an exception to the rule, I am talking through a generalised concept here).

MMORPGs tend to offer the freedom of movement, exploration and  a sensation of \"I can do whatever I want and the computer won\'t force me to anything!\".

This considerable liberty is lacking in many action games and shooters. They generally offer limited movements throghout the levels. How many times have we sighed in disappointment because a door was \"conveniently\" barred and prevented our advancement? No matter how many rockets we fire in that direction, it will not open.

This is one of the reasons Morrowind was so acclaimed by those who enjoyed rapid hack and slashing. It merged the open plot of a RolePlaying game with outbursts of solo dungeon crawling in which you whacked and slashed and sliced and chopped and stabbed and pierced everything in sight.

This mixture of kinetical independence plus a combat system appeals to action gamers. And truth be told, I seriously doubt many of them have ever tried out a real RolePlaying session.

They may be having heaps of fun. But was the game intended for them? Is a MMORPG aimed to please those who do not RP? I am not saying it is not.

But for the sake of honesty, if you are not going to enforce RolePlaying whatsoever, remove the \"RP\" from MMORPG.

RolePlaying is RolePlaying is RolePlaying. If you are in a RolePlaying game, is it so illogical to expect a player to RolePlay? Am I \"In the wrong\" for being so idealist?

What are we doing wrong that in graphic-heavy games the players simply cannot bring themselves to RolePlay? Why should it be so different to a \"chat room\" or a \"text game\", where you MUST RolePlay or you face the consequences of ruining the atmosphere for the other players?

The fact that \"the game that shall not be named for it provokes copious hemorrhages in the ears of the audience\", Nexus, or commercially successful EverQuest and other plethora of alike names do not offer a safe RolePlaying environment does not mean that PlaneShift has to follow the very same steps.

Non RP is not impossible to prevent. It is merely difficult. And it requires a lot of patience and educating the players in how they are expected to handle the game.

You are correct. I have no right in banning, kicking or preventing non-RPers from playing as they see fit. If I were the maker of the game, or a staff member with the consent of the project\'s leader to do so, I would have the holy powers to decide what is allowed and what is not. But I am just a player. And I will always be just a player.

Aside from this, though,  I do have the right to attempt to enforce RolePlaying to the best of my abilities. If other players have the right to disregard RolePlaying in a RolePlaying game, and to encourage their equals to do the same, then why I do not possess the right to regard RolePlaying and encourage my equals to have fun the way I do?

I will say this: I do not appreciate people bursting in and talking of how the Cubs will beat the world series when my character is having a conversation with an acquaintance about -his- daily life.

I will admit that such scenarios are disappointing and displeasing because they oppose the very premise and esence of the game (The Cubs and the World Series do not exist in Yliakum, why would a Klyros be speaking of it? Oh, right! This is just a RolePlaying game, it means they can do and say what they want.)

When I am told \"Think about. It can\'t be done.\", what I truly think about is not \"Bummer, you are right. It can\'t be done!\". Instead, I realise \"Gee...The gaming community itself obliterated RolePlaying.\"

And it is a terrible loss.

- Golbez

[Monketh]

Originally posted by Adeli
Do not presume to decide what people like, everyone is different, what is repetitive and mundane for one person, could be thrilling and exciting for the next.
You can NOT force anyone to RP, no other game has managed it. If people don\'t like RP that is their choice, complain if you want, but my advice is grow up. It\'s not just your game.

Au contraire mon ami.

The developers of the game can limit the game to whom they deem acceptable to use it; this means that if they decide that only rolepayers may play their game, they are free to enforce that whim.  The internet is not free, nor does it have true free speech.  The internet is owned, and what is on it is owned (in most cases).  The owners of the data on the internet and the methods for distributing that data may do as they please, so long as it does not violate the law.  If the developers of a game decide to outlaw rolepayers, they can.  Things like race are one of the few limitations.

And you see, it is just the Dev\'s game.  They are sharing it with us.

[Zeraph]

I personally take offence from people who are ?All RP or The Boot? it just isn?t socially acceptable behavior, If we were going to have a extremely all RP atmosphere they would not have any combat, all it would be is a large chat room with a lot of chars with allot of different animations, that?s all you need for RP you can imagine the rest. I personally can get board with RP something?s, maybe it just I haven?t RP?d with the right people but it is probably just not enough stuff to do in Planeshift as of now.

I have a theory on why ?1337? people exist?.

It is all because of ?RPG? games like Final Fantasy & such. I am talking about the first ones like FFmq(1)-5. Many people played these ?RPG?s not for the story but for the fact that it is fun to beet up monsters with the newly acquired mithril sword of 178 damage. I personally liked the story-line of the old RPG?s & then later acquired a liking to collecting the most powerful summon & knowing that nothing could stand in my way as long as had enough mana! But about 75% way through the game I realize that I am just constantly pressing menu: ?Down-A-(select spell)-A? & then boom, the same old fire/ice effect flashes the screen & all enemies are down. Then it I just a boar between segments of story & hack-n-slash?n?.

The problem of a ?mmoRPG? is that it can?t really be like the RPG of old in the fact that most have no set story, main Chars & long dialog between the main Char & the other Chars. There can be no ?One Main Char? because there are @ least 1000 of them. In classic RPG games there is usually a set story & path the Char takes, more like a movie then something you can actually change. It is much more complicated when you through in more then 2-4 possible players @ 1 time. Allot of RPG fans are to lazy to actually make up a story of there own, they are to used to the story being fed to them like it was a movie. That is why allot of them ignore the RP atmosphere & just go hack-n-slash?n all over the place with other people who like to do the same thing, making friendships & inadvertently in the process annoying the living daylights out of people who don?t think the same way as they do. (This is one reason why I?d like cut-scenes in mmoRPG?s, it is something I feel is long overdue, most of the RPG?s had them, that is one thing I think they are missing, much more amusing story-wise.)

I personally am on a neutral ground on this matter, I think too much of ether Hack-n-slash?n or All RP is a boring thing. I enjoy RP much better when I?m Hack-n-slashing or doing something other then just sitting there typing:
/me takes a drink from his mug
?I?m all out, anyone have a keg??
Someone gives you a keg of beer
?yesterday I fought 3 Montags with only my bow?
Someone: ?what?s a Montag??
Someone: ?I want to summon Montag, what do they look like??
Etc??.

I think it is much more fun when you are actually doing something then standing around & that is why I think we have combat, many enjoy RPG?s for the combat, others for the story, that is why there is this division of people who all can be called hard core RPGer?s.

Many strictly RP people tend to forget about the G, it is a Game after all?

The #1 definition of ?Game? in the dictionary is ?An activity providing entertainment or amusement; a pastime? I think some people (myself included) take them a little to seriously especially when other people are involved.

[Levski]

Difference between roleplayers and powerlevellers:

Roleplayers are guys who read books, watch movies, or even just imagine worlds beyond the mundane, ordinary expected.  They want to be part of something more, thus, they roleplay, and have fun.

Powerlevellers on the other hand don\'t imagine that they can be part of such a world.  They have no clue it exists.  Powerlevellers see this as just a game, and not a world unto itself.  Thus, because their view is limited, they approach this game as any other game, they level up to beat the boss and chat on aim (or in the game in this case) (Stereotype ->)about the homework they need to finish for tommorow\'s class. (<-  Stereotype.)

This is not a problem just in this online society.  This is not a problem just in the online world.  This is a problem in the world at large.  There are those who can imagine, and there are those who can be mindless robots, doing what society expects them to do.

There are two types of people in this world.  Those that can imagine are the ones that I\'d like to converse with.  Those that need to rely on society for their topic of conversation, for their ideological crutch, I do not want to converse with.

Now I know why Aendar, Gronomist, Kada, and all the pre-AB players, no, let me correct that, friends, reminisce about the \'Good Old Days\'.  They found people who they could share their ideas and imagination with.  That is the best kind of fun that I know of.

So if you see me online, now you know whether or not you would want to talk to me .

Sorry for the rant/pointless post/whatever.  Thought I\'d share my 2 cents.

Now for a real continuation of the topic .

I personally take offence from people who are ?All RP or The Boot? it just isn?t socially acceptable behavior, If we were going to have a extremely all RP atmosphere they would not have any combat, all it would be is a large chat room with a lot of chars with allot of different animations, that?s all you need for RP you can imagine the rest. I personally can get board with RP something?s, maybe it just I haven?t RP?d with the right people but it is probably just not enough stuff to do in Planeshift as of now.

Yes, I agree Zeraph.  What we all want to do here is to relax and unwind.  But you don\'t have to go around barging in on people, beating up newbies, harrasing people on chat channels, or any of that stuff to have fun here.  Talk in private with a group if you don\'t want to roleplay.  Find a solitary room to talk about stuff that isn\'t public.  That\'s what someone in RL would do anyway .

The #1 definition of ?Game? in the dictionary is ?An activity providing entertainment or amusement; a pastime? I think some people (myself included) take them a little to seriously especially when other people are involved.

Definitely Agree here.  Just want to point out that powerlevellers here tend to ruin the fun of others.  It\'s just common courtesy people.  Respect towards your peers.

[Monketh]

Originally posted by Zeraph
 (This is one reason why I?d like cut-scenes in mmoRPG?s, it is something I feel is long overdue, most of the RPG?s had them, that is one thing I think they are missing, much more amusing story-wise.)

The question is how to implement them.  You could always have your community artists draw one up, then move things around in flash.  (relic style! )Then you\'d get voice actors from the community to voice parts, and...

Alternatively, you could have a \"Cinematic Mode\", supposing you had enough Emotes, where the dialog would run as subtitles.  The camera could be controlled by the player, and the scene recorded...

We need a wishlist thread for this now!

[Golbez]

May I be allowed to sound a bit frustrated?

I never said combat, magics and action scenes in PlaneShift should be neglected or removed. I said it over and over again:

These systems are tools to reinforce the RolePlaying experience!

I am against hack and slashing for the sake of it. I am against powerlevelling with the objective of being the coolest dude around. I am against camping for \"XP and loot\".

I am not against a battle system. I never was. I never will.

But, if we are in a truly reasonable RolePlaying environment, there -should- be a reason behind all of that monster bashing and sword flailing.

The character\'s training may require dangerous sessions in a tenebrous cave. Or his job has as a must the domination of weapon techniques. Or there he just saw his nemesis and decided to challenge him to a duel (A feature that would be most interesting). Perhaps he is a criminal and has no mentor, thus he must train all by himself in order not to be whacked by the upholders of the law. A barfight may have arised an argument and the two combatants decide to \"Take it outside\".

And the amount of possibilities is as infinite as the players\' imagination. This not only goes for fighters and sorcerers. Any sort of crafter or skill-based character should have a reason behind their skill raises.

Suppose we have politicians in PlaneShift, which would be a nice addition as well. Some people do like to RolePlay being the guy with all that power at his disposal. They would be too occupied to be a swordmaster, or the best weaponsmith around. Perhaps he would be a bit proficient in one or the other,  but never the best. Same goes for merchants, and traders. They -can- train, but  let us face it, would they be any better than the guy who has dedicated his whole life to the sword?

However, this all has more to do with the skill system, about which I have some ideas but shall leave them for another thread.

In conclusion, and since I am too weary to elaborate any further for I frankly believe it will amount to nothing, this is what I expect from a MMORPG:

- RolePlaying, obviously. Enforced by staff and players alike.

- The sensible use of the battle system as a tool at the players\' disposal in order to RolePlay.

- Moderators and Guides that counsel people that are new to RolePlaying, so they may get the ropes necessary to hold their own in an enforced environment.

That is all, basically. I hope to have cleared up some misconceptions I seem to have picked up here and there.

- Golbez

[Zeraph]

I would definitely not like a strict RP policy, one reason why many people play mmorpg?s is to make friends. You usually need friends with common interests, but you will not be able to find people with common interests if you are not aloud to talk about OOC stuff. Actually I think there should be a OOC channel or a way to connect Planeshift to a IRC channel such as the Planeshift Fan channel so you can find people with common interest other then Planeshift. So if someone is chatting OOC stuff & bothering everyone by shouting it, the GM?s can point them to the IRC channel & tell them to talk about it there. (Sort of like The Hydlaa Plaza sub-forum?)

I love making friends in-game, the other mmorpg?s I?ve played that were more power-leveling oriented then RP I found friends that were the same level as me. I didn?t find a single person doing RP? but I still found a friend that logged on @ the same time as I did, since there wasn?t a RP atmosphere however we went are separate ways after the game got boring?

I would think true power-levelers would ignore everyone else & not bother to chat on OOC, but anyway, there will be a place to chat about RL so it doesn?t bother other people. As long as they keep it there? if it does encourage power-leveling & hack-n-slashers I really could care less, as long as they keep it in the OOC channel? that way you can always turn the ooc channel off if you like.

As for implementing cut-scenes, we can do it like they did in the old RPG?s were they had a text box & the players & NPC?s had animations & walked in certain places, not really rendered movie scenes & your wouldn?t even have to have voice actors, even though that would be nice. (Maybe way later on when the sound devs get bored?)
Cut-scenes could be all client controlled, so only 1 client would actually see the animations & that way you can have multiple people accessing the cut-scenes @ one time without having to wait for the other person to view it, otherwise people would have to stand in line for cut-scenes lol.

Btw, I can?t understand 1337. If I wanted to speak code I?d make it up myself & only teach it to people I know.
I wouldn\'t mind a no-leet policy because it wouldn\'t affect me...

[leji]

Instead of writing endless posts you could write really good backgrounds for everyone  you just need to write 1 or 2 thousands of background this way we will be able to choose one

Edit : hehe cool, I\'m a forum member now no more a newbie ouch does that mean that I can\'t say stupid things anymore ?

[Monketh]

Originally posted by leji
Instead of writing endless posts you could write really good backgrounds for everyone  you just need to write 1 or 2 thousands of background this way we will be able to choose one

Edit : hehe cool, I\'m a forum member now no more a newbie ouch does that mean that I can\'t say stupid things anymore ?

Of course not, we forum members have been saying stupid things for years!
Take as an example the Cabal, or Annah, or FESFESFES, or Whemyfield, or ...  *continues to list people for 4-5 minutes*

I doubt anyone would just pick one, people have a habit of not playing characters written by someone else.

[Hadfael]

ooc:
So, PS will be a RPG. Good
Can someone tell me when?
GMs are the solution. Fine
Aren\'t GMs implemented in MB already?
Each time I talk about RPing, I recieve the same answer :\"this is only a pre-alpha dude.\"
Whatever CB will be (alpha or beta) it will still not the complete PS with RP in it...
You know, I am getting old, so I hope it will be possible to RP.
\"it is possible\", says the crowd, \"just use /unshout, and RP with you friends\"
ok, so newcomers will only see a non-RP world and if by chance a RPer arrives he will leave disgusted, following the ones I called friends and who already did.
So please before the complete version of PS, can you tell me how to RP alone?

/me mutters to himself: Lots of ooc shouts today
/me says: indeed

[Adeli]

The reason I prefer a blance, is mostly due to my location. Most games I play are not very big in Australia, thus there are few people that I am often online with. I occasionally make friends in games, then lose them after not being on at the same time for months. This makes finding an RP group difficult, and thus the need for a non-rp element is evident to me.

Roleplaying alone sounds terrible. I would hate to have to resort to that.
Oh Golbez... It was technically one question posed to readers, and the other question you labelled \'pointless rhetoric\'... was about the first question, an emphasis as it were, and It was not a rhetorical question. You answered it yourself; No. Nobody knows... That\'s the answer to that question. Very simple, pointless perhaps, but simple and there is an answer.
Also, your pure RP world would, as Zeraph and I pointed out, have large chat logs of characters in a blank room. True RP does not need actual monsters or anything such as that. You are trying to turn this game, into tabletop D&D.

OT: Whatever happened to Whemyfield?

[Kuiper7986]

If your playing an RPG most likely your RP\'ing in some form its just that you probably not realizing it. Every step you take, every monster youfight, every person you talk to is considered RP\'ing because your assuming the role of someone else in this case it\'s your game character/avatar.

reply to the OT: Whemyfield was banned. I think its because not really of all his spam but mostly because about 98% of his replies were flames.

[Golbez]

Tangential to the actual point of the thread, your question and the elaboration of such was, in all true and clarity, rhetorical.

Rhetoric being \"the discourse that appeals to persuade one\'s point of view\". Something all of us attempt to do when defending our own version and putting forward a rebutal after finding a discrepancy between our line of thought and that of the other person.

It was pointless because, albeit it was effective in pointing out that my speech is not universally valid, it is also mutually exclusive for it casts a shadow of doubt upon your own words. The reality is, we are all in the dark about which one is the precise \"Truth\". And when all the variables and sum of individualities are put into the equation, it all gets worse.

This all is a quick analysis of the logic of the way things were phrased. It is, in soothe, pure and abstract mathematics, but it is applicable to the circumstances.

And having a relative involved in law studies, I am a bit aware of how some debates prevail over others by the explotation of this sort of tools and phrases. It is constructive criticism, nothing more. I rather enjoy this sort of discussions.

The reason I prefer a blance, is mostly due to my location. Most games I play are not very big in Australia, thus there are few people that I am often online with. I occasionally make friends in games, then lose them after not being on at the same time for months. This makes finding an RP group difficult, and thus the need for a non-rp element is evident to me.

[/B]

The answer may not be precisely fair or pleasant. But living in such a time zone complicates one\'s progress in not only online RolePlaying games, but also other kinds of forms of entertainment.

It would be quite interesting if the staff made a search of good moderators and members from all the different time zones and regions. Whereas doing so in the States and Europe may be much simpler, it is not impossible to have staff members in more oriental regions, Australia, and basically cover all the major time zones with potential players.

Having a team that tends to the needs of each and every time zone will be quite encouraging for those players of \"unconventional regions\", so to speak, to get hooked into the game.

Moreso, the players themselves have as a bit of a task to recruit other peers in order to form a bigger group to play with.

Also, your pure RP world would, as Zeraph and I pointed out, have large chat logs of characters in a blank room. True RP does not need actual monsters or anything such as that. You are trying to turn this game, into tabletop D&D.

[/B]

Would it?

First of all, let me clarify that I have absolutely zero experience in table top D&D. Not only was the booming sensation of table top D&D games over, it never really reached Latin America thus I did not hear of it until it was actually too late. I was never capable of forming a party of friends with similar interests.

Therefore, albeit I have read D&D rules and am no stranger to them, I have never put them to practice. I never played and even less GM\'ed a session. It would be fair enough to say that I barely know how an afternoon playing table top RP is like, although I am aware of what they entail.

That said, if my views would push PlaneShift towards that kind of style, it is not voluntarily or consciously so.

Nonetheless, since when is RolePlaying exclusively about sitting down and talking about daily life? Since when is it limited to \"blank rooms\" (Whatever those may be. Even in text games no rooms are blank, I doubt that would be the case in PlaneShift)? Whoever said that combat and RolePlaying could not go hand in hand?

I just stated that mindless, unrealistic or purposeless hacking and slashing is what I, personally, frown upon. And being the way I am, and since the boards offer me the chance to make it public, I voice -why- I frown upon it.

The point I try to make is that computer gaming gives us many advantages and offers a tremendous potential. We have a visually objective game world that albeit is not left to the imagination of the player (Which always allows for their minds to work at a more elevated level, permitting a lot of unexpected events), it gives us all a solid ground to play on. Automatised combat and magic system releases us from the headaches of character sheets and die rolling, saving throws and intrincate calculations. We can move and act and perform in real time, instead of taking turns.

This, I believe, permits us more freedom to RolePlay. Be it combat by hunting down a criminal due to our character\'s job/belief/vendetta/etc, training in magic since it is our character\'s way of life, or getting drunk at the tavern for our character has a little addiction to spiced ale.

It is true that RolePlaying does not need monsters. It also does not need a combat system, or items, or NPCs, or whatever element you can think of. But, we -do- have these elements (Or will do, eventually), so why not make use of them to RolePlay?

I am well aware that all of this is the staff\'s decision. I am more than cognisant about how the majority prevails in terms of what they want. Therefore if I am a minority and cannot seem to enjoy the game as it is or my opinion is dismissed by the populace, I will have no other choice but to pack my bags and seek new grounds. It has happened to me before in other communities, and I have come to accept it.

We will cross that bridge later, I suppose.

- Golbez

[Zeraph]

So you are saying that even power-levelers & 1337(leet) people are RP?ing?
Anyway, I think we need a balance between serious 100% RP & having Fun with friends.