Author Topic: 3D) ]Klyros  (Read 11892 times)

Seytra

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« Reply #30 on: September 30, 2004, 09:18:13 pm »
Thumbs up!

I\'d like the Klyros to have a tail (I like extremities of all sorts :] ). It could indeed be used for swimming, but it\'d need to be powerful for this, making it heavy. So maybe it\'s more of a steering than a propelling system? However, this job can as well be accomplished by the arms if they\'d have these retractable fins (which I thought of for the lower legs for propelling, because I think the frog-feet woul make them slow on land).

Maybe the tail could instead be a third \"hand\" (without fingers, of course, :) but with the ability to wind tightly around things and hold on). It wouldn\'t need to be thick or heavy for this, but maybe long (for pickpocketing!). :]

[edit]I imagine the tail to be like an Enk\'s tail, just with the fur replaced by the usual Klyros\'s skin. Also, it\'d be more flexible (so they could hold a pencil with it).[/edit]

Anyway, it\'s not a must.

I like the idea of having skin between the fingers, but maybe not all the way (how would they grab a cup?). Maybe the fingers would be longer than usual, but the skin would extend only 2/3 of their length? This way, they could use them to enhance propulsion in water. I imagine them to swim with the arms stretched backwards & next to the body for minimum friction, using the feet / legs for propulsion. I can, however, warm to the idea of using part of the wings to propell underwater, sounds reasonable, but doesn\'t invalidate the above statemets, it could be an additional propulsion system, making up for their lack of streamlinedness or making them really fast.

I also think that flight wouldn\'t take much concentration if it isn\'t special maneuvering. It\'s going to take stamina. However, I don\'t know if the flight would be steady enough to make aiming a projectile weapon feasible at all, unless you\'d stop flapping and glide for this duration, making you vulnerable, however.

For the fighting skills: I think they could be vicious fighters and dangerous towards targets that are either low on armour or that can\'t move quickly enough to get a hold of them. An Enki would be an even opponent as would be a human/elven warrior. A Kran might be at disadvantage but it the Kran manages to hit the Klyros, it\'ll surely break several bones.
This fighting scenario, however, only works if the Klyros would have claws. Of course, small weapons like daggers might be more effective and may be used alternatively, but the abilities need to come from somewhere.

Klyros vs. Klyros would be an airbourne catfight. :]

I however don\'t think that their triple nature makes the Klyros a great magicker. They may have a better understanding of water, air and earth elemental magic, but not necessarily.

[edit] Actually, their understanding of earth magic might even be more limited than other races\' understanding, because they spend less time there.[/edit]

Also, I can\'t think of why they would be prone to become rich merchants, unless it\'s because they use everything for practical purposes & thus don\'t waste energy and time. Maybe also because they can reach hard-to-reach areas and thus can get rich? However, this won\'t help them once they are so rich that they pay ppl. to do these things for them, but in this case it doesn\'t really matter anyway. :)

Wings: I think the bat version would be better, because it\'s more compact and might enable flapping better than the dino\'s version. However, they\'d need to be different from what you have now IMO: the bone that leads from the back of the body to the point at which the bones divide into fingerlike things should be way shorter. This way, it wouldn\'t have to support immense strain that would otherwise be due to it\'s length, and is instead dividedly placed onto the individual fingers. This would also give the wing more flexibility in terms of wingspan, allowing for better maneuverability AFAICS. And they can be folded up more easily / tightly.
Also, this main supporting bone would either need to be variable in vertical direction as well as in horizontal direction or angled upwards, not horizontally. This is because if it wasn\'t, the \"fingers\" would end very close to the ground and thus be easily damaged.

The head: I too think the lips are too pronounced. The neck should IMO be angled fully vertically, because when swimming it\'d be looking in what would be an \"upwards\" direction when standing. The way it is now would only apply to flight, but in this case they would be simply looking \"forward\". I think you\'re right in making the head streamlined and the neck thick so that water will flow more easily around it, although it makes the head look too small. Considering this, the mouth should be at the same horizontal level as the eyes are (in profile view).

The feet: There should be bone structure, not muscle structure (the main muscles for the feet are in the lower legs AFAIK, connected to the feet\'s bones by strings).

The bones: I think the Klyros would have bones that are a mixture of bird- and fishbones. This would make them light, flexible but not very durable. They\'d bend more easily than human / bird bones and therefore wouldn\'t break easily (good for crashing and when hit with blunt weapons), but would be more vulnerable to blades. All in all I think they would not even wear medium armor, because it\'s already heavy and inflexible, both things that would IMO be extremely annoying to a Klyros. Apart from this, I can\'t really see the importance of heavy armor if you have wings that can\'t be protected and thus be chopped off easily. It doesn\'t matter where the pain comes from and where the blood leaves your body... :] Maybe we\'d need to think of a way to armor the wings, at least when they\'re not in use (after all, it\'s more likely to encounter a blade on the ground than underwater or in flight).

I can imagine either a complete wing-cloth that\'s wrapped around them (good for cold days!), or a bodycloth that wraps around the entire body with the wings folded as close as possible. Of course, quick take-off isn\'t an option if you need to unwrap yourself first. These clothes could be as fashoinable as any other clothes, I can imagine finely-webbed white and golden silk, with the house emblems on them. Oooh, the options are endless!

Also, you can have wing-piercings, brandings and tattoos, and maybe even fashionable holes (not too big ones, though ;) ). After all, there may be Klyros who don\'t even leave the ground at all and therefore don\'t mind being wrapped all the time or even giant / countless decorative holes in the wings, or chains / bands affixed to them. Maybe there would even societies in which having not clothed your wings is considered bad taste and you\'re not allowed into any importany places this way? Dresscodes may vary...

Anyway, back on topic:

I don\'t know how to imagine the fins you posted on the Klyros model. :( Can you please show which way they\'d go on the arms / legs / whereever?

Anyway, great work! I think you should definitely apply for a dev position!
« Last Edit: October 01, 2004, 04:40:16 am by Seytra »

Reyun

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« Reply #31 on: September 30, 2004, 10:11:54 pm »
the lips are humungus

Zeraph

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« Reply #32 on: October 01, 2004, 05:32:16 am »
do you think the wings should be something like this?

(excuse my lacking of 2D art skill...)

CB Characters: Zeph Waterfox & Zeraph Waterfox MB: Zph

Pegasus

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« Reply #33 on: October 01, 2004, 10:09:58 am »
Zeraph i think you are right with that 2D drawing. Just imagine that the klyros would fold his wings while he is swimming or walking (else the air/water resistance would be to big).

Beside that it really is great work so far :)

Zeraph

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Thanks...
« Reply #34 on: October 01, 2004, 11:59:34 am »
Small Update:
Well I worked on improving the Torso:

(This was auto-optimized & 2-sided top & right)

I think I have got a good look so I decided to hand optimize it for a better look:

The uv map needs a little work but I think it\'s Farly good...

I figure that the Klyros would be built in such a way so that they could compensate for the extra weight in the back from there wings & tail so that is why I modeled it sort of leaning forwards all the time. Think how a bird is always leaning forward to balance the tail & wings...

I think I\'m going to make another attempt on improving the wings, actually I think they should be bat-like but also have the wings stretch down the tail instead of stretching down the legs. This add tremendous support to the wings making them partially usable underwater. they will have to be tough, I think what the website means by \"two big wings that appear to be weak and non-functional.\" IMO that means that they look like they do not work @ rest but are functional, they just look like they are not. so Klyros do not move there wings while standing & walking (even walking underwater.) I\'m sure when we get an underwater map that we will not have a swim ability beforehand so I wouldn\'t worry about that for a while. I just have to make the wings look frail when they are unused, (which will probably be most of the time @ first, I do not know if Flying spells are implemented yet.)

OT: It\'s my 456 post if that has any significance whatsoever...  :D
« Last Edit: October 01, 2004, 12:05:15 pm by Zeraph »

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WiseKran

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« Reply #35 on: October 01, 2004, 02:14:28 pm »
ahhhh...   much better :)   his torso was way to wide.. he looked funny


**APPLAUDS**

Farewell Moogie, Farewell Draklar, Farewell Drey. you will be missed.

leinir

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« Reply #36 on: October 01, 2004, 04:40:02 pm »
Wow, this is really coming along nicely, the face looks /much/ better this way, and what you did to the body now is really good :) And your reasoning with why to have the body leaning forwards is very important, this is not only creative, but a great bit of thinking :)

With regards to the wings, I still have an idea about them being attached all the way down the side of their bodies, akin to the pteranodon or somesuch flying sauropod. Using the wings under water with this design will make the Klyros look somewhere between a mantaray and a legged shark... Which to me seems quite interesting :)

Again, great work so far :)
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Savion

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« Reply #37 on: October 01, 2004, 06:41:49 pm »
Quote
Originally posted by Zeraph
do you think the wings should be something like this?

(excuse my lacking of 2D art skill...)



Savion doesn\'t think that teh wing would attach to such a large area, rather a smaller poing on the back.

Karyuu

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« Reply #38 on: October 01, 2004, 08:08:21 pm »
Savion doesn\'t know what  he\'s talking about ;P

If the wings aren\'t attached effectively to the body, they will not be able to be used. It wouldn\'t be possible for the wings to carry the Klyros if attached to a \"smaller poing,\" as put. Check out the anatomy of bats, for instance.
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WiseKran

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« Reply #39 on: October 01, 2004, 08:41:09 pm »
zeraph mentioned something about making the model for planeshift, like a game ready package.

if i ever made something worthy of planeshift, what is the type of file that is used in games?

whenever i save a 3d file in Blender it always saves as a \".blend\" file.
« Last Edit: October 01, 2004, 08:41:27 pm by WiseKran »

Farewell Moogie, Farewell Draklar, Farewell Drey. you will be missed.

Golbez

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« Reply #40 on: October 01, 2004, 08:50:09 pm »
I do not think it would work if the wing is attached at a thin single point to the shoulder. When in flight, the active forces such as weight, gravity, and air streams would act on the joint which I deem would be too weak to hold the Klyros\' structure together.

Birds pull it off because their bodies are smaller in comparison to their wingspan, but Klyros have more humanoid proportions, and their size would suggest they need bat-like wings for flight to be feasible, as Karyuu claimed before me. A second insertion at the lower back would work, I suppose.

It would be interesting to see how the Klyros are modelled in game, or to have more artwork at hand\'s reach to peruse. A 3/4 view alone is usually insufficient for an accurate model to be built.

Keep up the good work!

- Golbez

Zeraph

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Ya,
« Reply #41 on: October 01, 2004, 09:32:21 pm »
I really needed a side & front view @ least & a diagram of the skeletal structure wouldn\'t hurt ether. That is why it is taking long, I am sort of \"Flying Blind\" or \"Winging It\" so to speak. :D

Actually I really need to take drawing classes to make my own Concept Art. actually if anyone could make Concept Art for the Female Klyros I would appreciate it but no rush since it looks like it may take a little longer to make the Male Model. I can always just \"Modify\" the Male to make more Feminine proportions, however I am not all that familiar with Female Anatomy. then I can definitely make Female Textures & Such... it doesn\'t have to be colored or super detailed, just a sketch as a guidelines to the basic contours of the body...  :))

It is not an official assignment from a Dev, but I am going to give it to the Dev\'s & see if they would put it in-game. or just wait & see if I become a Dev after CB when they start recruiting, I basically know how to do allot of the stuff needed to make this sort of thing, I just need to find out how to define reference verts so the model can hold weapons & passably other stuff that I do not know about yet like exactly how to make the .Cal3D reference file etc.

I think that the Klyros would have the wings stretched onto the tail like a Bat.
« Last Edit: October 01, 2004, 09:36:06 pm by Zeraph »

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Seytra

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« Reply #42 on: October 02, 2004, 12:19:15 am »
Quote
Originally posted by Zeraph
do you think the wings should be something like this?

I wasn\'t exactly proposing an extra joint (though I have been thinking about it as well, as it seems like a better option), but more of changing the mounting angle of the main supporting bone. In the PS 2d image it looks like the bone is angled mostly upwards, i.e., it starts somewhere at the shoulder and then goes up and reaches over the head (almost vertically), whereas in the current 3d model it is going horizontally. Of course it can be moved in the flapping direction (i.e. forwards and backwards when standing), but I wasn\'t sure if it\'s angle towards the back (i.e. upwards and downwards when standing) was meant to be changeable.
If it weren\'t, the wings could only be folded by lowering the main bone, thus they would be sticking out at the front.

Anyway, I think that the extra joint is a good idea and would be more usable.

OK, I\'m starting the GIMP now, beware!



Yes, it looks like it was made in pain(t)! You can create crappy images using the GIMP, too! :)

Anyway, it shows what I mean.
Cyan: alternative without extra joint, but upwards angle (my original interpretation of the PS 2d image)
Green: new version with extra joint and upwards angle
Yellowish: end of skin

I made the wing a bit bigger, it looked kinda lost otherwise ;)
Also, I moved the \"fingers\" along the supporting bone so that they won\'t all start at the same position, making it possible for the main bone to become less thick (and heavy) while going outwards by reducing the lever forces exerted on it.

Furthermore, the places marked in red could have joints as well. These could be used to facilitate wingsize reduction for swimming and might also help when moving through thickets (to avoid getting stuck, or to get out when stuck).

The thing on the right is my interpretation of the wings when folded in the way shown in the PS 2d image. (Yes, it looks like greenish hair to me, too.)

Adeli

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« Reply #43 on: October 02, 2004, 04:25:00 am »
Hey Seraph, great model.
I have a suggestion if I may.

Personally, I would change the wings.
I\'d see the wings in a very similar way to a pteranodon or the 2d image of a Klyros.
I\'m going to attempt a quick image to show you what I mean.



(Forgive my lack of skill, it\'s been a long time since I drew anything, I used to have some skill)
I also think this is similar to a common depiction of an angel, the garden variety angel mind you, not a seraphim. the way the wings fold, I can\'t see the wings being useful or practical straight out the back like that.

You see what I mean though, the wings are er.. mounted on the shoulder blades and the joint is up not down like you have drawn, this would enable much better flight, and even bats wings go this way.

Edit: Of course the body would in better proportions, and the wings would be longer, and many things would be different.
« Last Edit: October 02, 2004, 04:28:25 am by Adeli »

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swift

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« Reply #44 on: October 02, 2004, 09:22:15 am »
I think that the files for characters are in a crystal space format.  I\'ve been trying to compile Crystal Space on Slackware 9.1 under VMware, but it doesn\'t like the virtual (8 bit depth ) display.  I gues I could get Visual C++, but it might be easier to compile under a real linux box.  

Anyway, the files are almost certainly Crystal Space and possibly sprites.  I would guess that levels were converted from 3d studio format, the characters from either 3ds or quake etc. character format.  

The best way to get an answer would be to ask a dev...
Ingame Names (CB) : Calcius Sakor, Timgiffney Calcior