To fight or to watch the fight?

[Cybio Kingfist]

Originally posted by Berzerk
 There I have thourghaly wasted yours and mine time by complaining

Yes you have.

[Foresteer]

Well i am sooooooooooo sick of the \"Sword lvl * STR + DEX + AGIL = Damage / pie - Enemy Defence (all armour combined no less what good is the 30 armour points boots if i stab him in the head?! but thats the PnP relic so they count i guess :/)
= total damage\" have fun and watch the fight..

style of \"fighting\" i could scream.. and yes the enternal monster of \"lag\" have you ever played a shooting game? back in the days of 28.8K?! that was total luck.. fun but skill had nothing to do with XD (actualy every online game in the days of 28.8k-56k was a lot of luck and good bandwidth with a small bit of skill thrown in for fun)

\"So you yung-uns quit yer whippersnapping *shakes cane* in my day we had to walk uphill in the snow just to get 56k and you know what we LIKED it!! A page took 30 minutes to load and a post to an hour to process but we didn\'t whine we where so glad to be using that new-fangled intra-web we  could\'ve danced with joy at a download that took 5 days! Darned spoiled kids \"

I would love more then a \"click\" enemies dead! \"click\" enemies dead! \"click\" so on and soforth i don\'t care who you are you are a simpleton if you think thats fun *you also smell of elderberries* (its not fun after a month.. how fun is it after 5 years?! at least really \"old-school\" games like zelda you could move in combat use a shield and swing when you felt)

And Cybio.. its not complaining its a CRITCAL design flaw in the combat systems of almost every  MMOPRG there is.. just because you obviously haven\'t played MMO long enough to note it doesn\'t mean you can rag on those who have had to live with it a lot

\"Darned spoiled kids *whacks Cybio with cane*\" (seriously people have gotten spoiled.. i though CB worked better then i expected even first day.. since i lived with the early internet that was no biggie.. so when i say young(er) gamers are spoiled i really mean it until you had to STOP playing pull a cartridge out of the console blow on it to loosen the dust and just hoped you saved recently as you just lost everything you did.. or had to MANUALY connect to you game \"server\" {friends PC} with a modem that you actualy had to put your phone reciever on.. i frankly don\'t wanna hear it :/)

[XpYtZ]

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     Uh...Ok...

I played on all that also but I don\'t...Nevermind.

I agree with both sides on this one.
Vengance is on target with the \'skills are the basis\' argument but it is more fun, and seemigly realistic to have some user imput taking up the slack.
I have had to be carefull in CB with both sides. If you are to far away you can not Melee and some times you just stop attacking (I\'ve been worked by that one in the Lag sessions I have entered) while Magic requires your constant, vigilant support.
Perhaps a way of creating string of different attacks or even just single attacks that could become strung together. Then the users attack types would have play like they do in spell functions.

(IE: making a string that reacts to the \'1\' key: [jab $target; slice $target;] or [/sword_skill The Boar; /sword_skill Whirlwind; ...])
Obviously this would nee to be hotkeyed since typing either of those function sets in a dynamic battle situation would be suicide.

[MareviQ]

1. There won\'t be a \"active\" figting system in a MMORPG untill internet 2. It was pointed that skill is determining the outcome of a counterstrike fight. Now look at how many people can play cs simutanously. About 30. And that\'s it. Tere\'s a reason. Bandwidth. We, the users may have the bandwidth required to play MMORPG that way. The MMORPG server doesn\'t.

2. When it comes to fight being driven by stats, there is also one stat that you forgot - random variable (like where the hit lands, whether it hits at all, etc.).

3. If you don\'t like the idea of \"clik, then make yourself a tea and check if you\'ve won already\" skills can be implemented, or fighting styles, then modified with fight planning (eg. my usual tactic is defensive, but i want my next three moves to be a feint, then a stab in the chest, and a swing in the head) - this also could eleminate the problem of \"I\'ve hit him in the head with an axe and he\'s still alive\" - more or less like it was done in \"Evil Islands\" - these aren\'t as good as actually controling the character yourself, but i\'d say they are a reasonable compromise.
(idea - there could be three stances - berserk, normal, and defencive, all of them having their specific attacks. Berserk is more effective against normal, normal is more effective against defencive and defencive is more effective against berserk. Of course, you increase your fighting skill independently for each of these stances. Then add moves that come from having certain stats/skills at a certain level, and we have a nice fighting system imho)

4. the idea of being a better fighter by actually fighting is also nothing new - go play \"ultima online\" -  the more you practice a skill, the better you are. Simple. No character development with \"oh, let\'s add some points to reading, even though my character hasn\'t seen a book in his/hers entire life.\"

Edit: some mistakes, or wrongly formed sentences

[JustinS4ne]

Originally posted by MareviQ
1. There won\'t be a \"active\" figting system in a MMORPG untill internet 2. It was pointed that skill is determining the outcome of a counterstrike fight. Now look at how many people can play cs simutanously. About 30. And that\'s it. Tere\'s a reason. Bandwidth. We, the users may have the bandwidth required to play MMORPG that way. The MMORPG server doesn\'t.

Ever played a little game called Planetside?
Or better yet, a successful game- Battlefield 1942.
The new BF game Battlefield 2 will have 128 players simultaneously.

And a launch game for the Xbox 2 will, also, have 128 players simultaneously.

Half life is even working out physics with its multiplayer

The \"internet 2\" you speak of is upon us.

[Black_rose]

you\'re talking a combat sytem similar to the newer zelda games? like oot and tww? yeah that would be awsome, the weapon and armor should be minor influence compared to the players (not charactors) fighting skills

i would be happy even with a tibia like fighting system, it had one of the best rpg systems i saw for minimum lag effects.

also could you imagine playing gta and clicking on one of the guys and just going (oh now im gunna watch rather than use my skill) then the total nerds would not always run things

[Berzerk]

Wow lots of good points made on both sides. For starters I don\'t mind the watch style of combat I just would dump it any day for a self-controled combat system. So if PS stays as a watch style I won\'t mind that much, just personaly I think it not as good of an idea.

Secondly, Internet speeds between Cables and 56ks is not half as bad as you say, the internet has gotten so much faster now days having a phoneline connection is not a major disadvatage, still a disatvatage but not much. I remember back during the Quake two days me and my bros would beat the living crap out of cable and T1 players with simple blasters against their mighty rocket launchers and we were on a average of a 42k connection only. lol, now days the differance between connections is much smaller so I don\'t think thats a real valid point to make.

Thirdly, WOW someone else besides me has actualy played Blade of Darkness. LMAO

Fouthly, Having a real time fighting system would eliminate teh nerds from ruling the world like Black_Rose said, very annoying to know that who ever plays the most obsessively is gonna be the top no matter what, sure thats more or less the reward for being so devoted, but its also very stupid to see someone wasting their life playing it all the dang time. I for one would be glad to see the obsessive players finaly knocked around so they realise they have a life outside of the game. lol

Five, Cybio Kingfist I would appreciate it if you didn\'t post a quote leaving out the rest of a sentance that adresses part the meaning of that quote, you made me look like I was complaining to the Devs like a child that the real time fighting is not in this, I was complaining in general of all MMORPGs that none have done it yet. Personaly I thought it was rather rude, but thats just me.

Six, The fighting system can still incorporate the statistics part, but not to determine the whole fight, but build a system thats uses both realms of combat in one system.... but not like Morrowind did cause that was just as bad as the watch style fights really. Compromise a way for combat to suit everyones desires, perhappes even a Auto-fight for players who suck at fighting, and the better you get the better you auto-fight, of course it wouldn\'t be as good as fighting yourself.

Seven, If you must absolutly have a watch and pray style combat system than look for one of the zillion other games like this use that system of combat. Waiting for this one when your real goal is point and click combat than waiting is pointless as there are tons of point and clicker combats out there now that are done and fully playable already. lol

Eight, (Man this is getting long) The point of this thread was to encourage the Devs to use the Real time combat system by seeing how many would want it over the standard old watch style. This was not ment to be a debate over which style is better for what ever reasons.

Nine, This IS still a alpha, there IS a ton of work to be done on it. anything and I mean ANYTHING can be changed in the production time it currently has. This game won\'t be done for at the very least a year or two. Why I brought this up I am not sure.

Ten, Just for good measure, and because I wanted to break the ten mark. lol

[Saiorse]

anybody here ever played ultima online the combat system seems similar to a compromize of what you all want first you initiate the attack then you run in and your character swings automaticly but you can also use special moves and performance effecting spells to boost your dmg heal or whatever to help you win the fight.

 a player vs player situation turns into 2 people fighting using special moves at the right times and healing and the first person to hit a special move at the right times will win or the other person forgets a heal in time and dies it is mostly about stats tho with the right skill you can take people out who are stronger/better equipped than yourself

the special moves cost mana so you cant jsut endlessly use them and it gives a reason for a pure fighter character to even have mana in the first place it also allows a pure fighter to compete with a mage in a battle

::begin random rant:::
 
in all fairness if there was magic IRL im sure a mage could never be defeated by a warrior with a sword but in MMORPGs you have to keep it fair even tho it never would be in reality this helps to balance the equasion befor everyone pulls out the nerf stick and yells at the Devs to make a character class less powerfull

::end rant::

sry about that i lost the subject at some point lol

[Djaggernaut]

Planetside is a better example than Battlefield, simply because there are less information to manage in BF2 than in a MMORPG. And still, ppl  who played Planeside wasn\'t really satisfied with it.


I think Venge told mostly everything on the reason to use such system, unfortunaly, the technical part is already a lot.
Comfort is an other part too, that the casual player won\'t understand.
Playing all the day may looks too easy, the only skill this person has is free time. But this person must cleverly find how to gain xp and become more powerful


Now perhaps the solution is in adding a few thrill to this kind of fight.
We could imagine than each shield/armor is more affected by a certain kind of weapon, so the player must choose carefully wich weapon/spell use.

It could be possible to use different attacking/defending style.
Perhaps even a training part where you enter some combination of moves/magic to have specific damage. And then in game, you use a shortcut to this combination. So perhaps someone who has cleverly made his fighting style can beat more experienced player...

[diabolus]

Not sure if it was mentioned. Even though i\'m for a \'interactive\' combat system [vs stats-driven one] there\'s another crucial problem:

You will need a very refined behavioural-AI system for all mobs. I\'m sure the stats-driven system do not require alot of AI [if at all] other than the list of available spells and targeting/pathfinding of the mob [the rest is embedded in the \'behaviour\' of the spell/skill used]. In a \'manual\' combat system the mob will need to have the ability to block,swing,target,MOVE based on YOUR activities [i.e. if you block it must change behaviour [i.e. stop hitting] ].  

So each and every mob now suddenly need a whole lot of behavioural code [and imagine the calculations going on for each battle] . Most games i\'ve seen that have good unique AI generally do not have alot of variety in opponents [i.e. humanoids only].

Also, MMORPGs assumes most of the interaction will be between players who already are walking AI-gods (rather that\'s what i believe). Trouble is, where do you spend most of your time? Killing players or killing mobs? Interacting with NPCs [quests/trading] or with Players? PS has to ask those questions (all MMORPG probably should).

If a large part of the game intents to let players interact with NPCs then i\'d say some AI behaviour will be needed.
[For example NPC walking around with routines and NOT standing in one place]. If the largest part will be interacting/fighting with mobs then some AI will probably be the \'ultimate\'. But i\'m aware [and i\'ve seen this in the MUD i play] that \'intelligent\' AI on a 1000 spawned rats wil kill you system because it will use the equivalent of a 1000 players\' resources if you think about it.

[Black_rose]

well right nowe their is combat and that is graeat, but i would rather even a diablo style combat, at least that is better,

also i meant by skills being little difference like you would thrust fasted and block faster with better thrusting/ blocking skills get it??? also i thought that you could develope your level around one item that you own (like getting good at mario would not make you good at donkey kong but they are bolth games so getting good with your sabre would not make you awsome with a broad sword although it would make you decent but not as good as with that sabre)


edit: i also think that this will bring out player to player interaction by teaching good combos and moves (like slash stab backflip block stab) you know??

[Kramy]

Originally posted by Berzerk
Secondly, Internet speeds between Cables and 56ks is not half as bad as you say, the internet has gotten so much faster now days having a phoneline connection is not a major disadvatage, still a disatvatage but not much.

My 56k rarely loses any packets.

Hey, anyone remember that game where you use the mouse to control where your sword goes?

That would be cool....move the mouse around to move your wep while using the keyboard to move your char. You click the mouse buttons to signal attacks. If you are moving forward, you\'ll jab, but if you\'re moving left/right you\'ll slash, etc.

Could also prove interesting with staff weapons. Just imagine taking out two opponents by ramming your spear into one\'s gut(behind you), then thrusting it forward to take out the other.

Would certainly be more realistic than it is now...but hard to control, meaning only certain people could be warriors/skilled warriors, just like IRL.

[Black_rose]

well i thought about making a plainshift controller


they could use the income to pay for the server and the site.


but u could also install ur own controller (sidewinder ect. ect.) then it would be like a console game or use the keyboard...


also some monsters could be strong and smart enough to be able to take out 10 players at once when others would be weak, it might not go by race as mutch as a small monster leveling system until it dies (of course it would level in a faster wa then us like by hits) then their could be a weakling goblin that gets the power of a lvl 100 person, monsters would fight eachother

[Doikor]

Make the battle have some tactics(block, high cut etc.) and make it turn based(lag really doesnt matter that much anymore) if you got a fast char you can attack 2 or 3 times a turn. Slow ones only once a turn.

[Draklar]

What exactly is the point of adding such combat system in mmorpg? To reduce roleplaying and increase hack&slash? Sounds pretty stupid to me...

- Swords