to all those in support of open PKing (my first last and only opinion)

[Rilar]

Implimenting an option to attack players who turn down your duel request would be a form of PvP light. If the attacker was automatically sent to the wall of shame for a week or month (this means you could not loot your victom either).

It would be very disencouraging for peaceful people being looted... Instead I would propose (like in Diablo 2) to loose a certain amount of the money you carry at the moment. This money would lay on the floor, free for everyone. I believe it would be fair to implement this mechanism for all sorts of pvp.
The wall of shame should show all outlaws which can be killed by everyone without challenge or fair treatment. The restriction which prevents players to attack something/somebody beeing already under attack should neither apply for attacking outlaws. But only guards and head-hunters should be able to catch an outlaw (by killing) to bring him to justice.

could you kill more players while you were waiting for your court case?

Good question. Probably it would be best (because most realistic) to keep the accused in arrest without any further punishment while waiting for the court. But to keep the interest in the game, the accused should be able to contact others, trade with others, perhaps even mine some resources in the arrest. And of course.. a chance to escape. This could be implemented over the digging. If  the convicted is digging a lot at the right place, there could be a chance to find a tunnel. Of course the crimecounter should rise again when using it.

If the \"Judge\" just ignored the claim, would the player be stuck for ever?

Of course not. In RL you neither cant be arrested without court case for ever. Here in in Germany it is law that you can be kept in custody without any reason only for two days. I dont know whether it is different where you live.

Beeing arrested without court case is also a sort of punishment. So if a judge ignores you, the easiest way for fair treament is to limit the time beeing in custody without trial. On the other side, your crimecounter goes down with time and the longer you are in custody, the higher is the probability to find the tunnel.

I really ment to say, if you kill the guard, my bad.

Could you explain that?

but if you can kill guard and get experience from it then, the guards may be dead when you need them to arrest the Pkers

That is right. For killing guards you get xp, that is only logical. But since I propose guards which adepts their skills to the target, guards are not easy to kill...
Neither they should have anything to loot in order to prevent players to attack them only for getting money.

cu,
amogorkon

[derwoodly]

Originally posted by amogorkon
It would be very disencouraging for peaceful people being looted... Instead I would propose (like in Diablo 2) to loose a certain amount of the money you carry at the moment. This money would lay on the floor, free for everyone. I believe it would be fair to implement this mechanism for all sorts of pvp.

Just gettting killed is disencouraging for peaceful people (both in real life and in game )

The wall of shame should show all outlaws which can be killed by everyone without challenge or fair treatment. The restriction which prevents players to attack something/somebody beeing already under attack should neither apply for attacking outlaws. But only guards and head-hunters should be able to catch an outlaw (by killing) to bring him to justice.

I actuctually thought that the \"wall of shame\" would be a wall that the players would be attached to.  I don\'t think that just having your name up on a wall is punishment enough.  It has been said before, but I will repeat it.  Pkers will not stop just because their name turns red and everyone can attack them.  I believe that the other posts were refering to a system where the victor of a non-consentual duel would be instantly teleported to a jail or tower or stockade, and be locked up for a period of some time.  Some suggested a few hours. Others sugested days.  I would suggest a week.  I am talking about a \"PvP light\" system.  I know it is restrictive.  I believe that was the intent of the original post.  Some of my earlier posts were about a more hard core system, but after reading Paxx\'s post I am trying to soften that aproach.

could you kill more players while you were waiting for your court case?

Good question. Probably it would be best (because most realistic) to keep the accused in arrest without any further punishment while waiting for the court. But to keep the interest in the game, the accused should be able to contact others, trade with others, perhaps even mine some resources in the arrest. And of course.. a chance to escape. This could be implemented over the digging. If  the convicted is digging a lot at the right place, there could be a chance to find a tunnel. Of course the crimecounter should rise again when using it.

I had envisioned the \"accused\" locked up in a small cell.  In this case, you could use the chat channels, but trading would not be allowed.  At this point I do not think the Judge/Jurry system would work.  The accused could be stuck in a cell untill a judge and jurry were put together.  I believe most players would decline a request to become a Jurror.  I imaging hunting rats in the sewer and getting several pop-up jurror reqests and declining all of them because I am trying to get my Axe skill to level 200, so I am not killed so quickly by Pkers.  With the Jurry system the pker gets to cause grief twice, first the kill, second the trial!

If the \"Judge\" just ignored the claim, would the player be stuck for ever?

Of course not. In RL you neither cant be arrested without court case for ever. Here in in Germany it is law that you can be kept in custody without any reason only for two days. I dont know whether it is different where you live.

Two points here, first PS is not set in modern day Germany.  Second, nobody is going to sit arround for two days while in game.  They will log off.  When the court is finally conviened I am sure the accussed will be off line or afk, something that just does not happen in real life.

I really ment to say, if you kill the guard, my bad.

Could you explain that?

I made a mistake in my orginal post. I asked a question about what happens when a guard kills you.  I should have said it the other way arround.  What happens when you kill a guard. To this question, you have allready said that you should get experience points for it.  The guard killing issue is getting off topic, but my whole point was that I can imagine a day when the Pkers can kill the guards and rule a city.  Maybe you think that is realistic, but I think of that as more of a \"hard core\" PvP system.  For this reason I think it better to just insta-teleport you to the Jail.

[Rilar]

Just gettting killed is disencouraging for peaceful people

But then additional being looted would be a real shock, I believe.

I believe that the other posts were refering to a system where the victor of a non-consentual duel would be instantly teleported to a jail or tower or stockade, and be locked up for a period of some time.

How would you explain that in RP?

Others sugested days. I would suggest a week. I am talking about a \"PvP light\" system.

PvP light in a world where a war is going to start?
PS is situated in the middle age! In this time duels and fights have been daily business!

but trading would not be allowed.

Agreed. But as the custody before trial shall not be seen as punishment, the player should have the possibility to be productive in any way while waiting for the trial.

I believe most players would decline a request to become a Jurror.

I dont believe so. Many people are honored to become a jurror (and if they only want to punish a pker). If that wont be enough, there is also the possibility to pay a jurror. And if there is really nobody who wants the job... luck for the accused.  Maybe the one who declined will be killed next...

first PS is not set in modern day Germany.

You are right, but would you really like to go back to the justice of the middle age? That would be most realistic, but impossible to implement. The contrary would be a fully automatic justice. But then you will have problems to explain it in RP. So we have to make a compromise like I proposed. The comparison with German justice was only for orientation. (And I meant 2 ingame-days, not RL). So my proposal can be seen as really soft, but please consider the gaming fun. Players shall not leave the game cause of ip-blocking or something harsh like that. Best is, when all the players are able to accept the justice as it is and do know that they can rely on fair treatment if they do something against the law. Fair treatment must also include the need of the accused. And this need is also to be allowed to enjoy the game.

They will log off. When the court is finally conviened I am sure the accussed will be off line or afk, something that just does not happen in real life.

Thats the problem with the proposals where the char should be kept in a cell without something to do. The justice in this game should enforce the player to overthink his actions and not to log off. Perhaps there could be a penalty when logging off in custody?
I also think the proposals to dig for some resources in custody is a good way to keep the player logged on and with that the player cannot easily go afk.

I actuctually thought that the \"wall of shame\" would be a wall that the players would be attached to.

You want a pillory, do I understand you right?
In the middle age this method was a \"honorary punishment\" for low crimes. Why not? This sort of punishment could be chosen from the game when the crimecounter is not too high. How would you name then the place where the names of the outlaws is shown?

The guard killing issue is getting off topic, but my whole point was that I can imagine a day when the Pkers can kill the guards and rule a city

They probably will try it... But the guards are coming back and are everytime equal in there skills. I dont believe the pkers will have much time to rule
Perhaps there could also be a variable spawning-point which spawns as much guards as pkers are in the city?

cu,
amogorkon

[Felix Yellowhair]

Starting a new player and going to the trouble of doing it, is also some of the punishment.    Some thieves are always thieves.    
Maybe a Player should have to be branded somehow.  Maybe wear a icon showing the offense.

Felix

[Rilar]

Starting a new player and going to the trouble of doing it, is also some of the punishment.

I`d rather kick the whole game than starting a new char all over again... nevertheless there ARE people who wants to play \"evil\" chars and they want to do it in RP.

Some thieves are always thieves.

And I personally like to play a thief (perhaps you know Dark Project?)...

Maybe a Player should have to be branded somehow. Maybe wear a icon showing the offense.

Im referring to UO system here. Killing someone turns you into a murderer (red, pk or whatever) which means you are free \"meat\" to anyone. That means that anyone can attack you/kill you without them turning into a criminal/murderer them selfs.

Quod vide post from Mystiqq...

Bye,
amogorkon

[Perkins]

Most of the things I\'m hearing here would be fairly simple to deal with...

The objection about fading skills giving an unfair advantage to people who play all the time would be solved by only having them fade when a player is online.  Personally I\'ve always liked those kinds of systems because it keeps a player\'s skills in realistic groups.

Thieving:  I am taking this to mean picking up something that somebody has set down with the obvious intention of retrieving later.  The thing to do here would be to have the guards take notice if they see player X picking up something that\'s labeled as \"obviously belonging to player Y\"  The label could fade over time so eventually dropped objects would become fair game.

Pickpocketing:  Ok, so you pick someone\'s pocket.  The idea being that they won\'t notice.  Make the possibility of them or the guards noticing based upon the pickpocket\'s skill and the size and weight of the object.  Lifting a mushroom off someone wouldn\'t be that difficult.  Stealing the sword out of their scabbard without them noticing would be a major undertaking.  When a player notices that something has been stolen they can report it to the guards.  Make the odds of the guards figuring out who did it based upon the time elapsed and the distance to which the thief has fled.

Player Killing:  Make it based on who sees it.  Walk up to someone in the main square and stab them in the back, and chances are that you\'re going to be seen by the city guards.  If you\'re good, you might be able to escape, but they\'ll be looking for you for a while to come.  Lure someone into a back alley and off them there, and it\'s possible that noone will ever know.  The main areas of the cities, and the patroled roads would remain fairly safe, while the slums and the wilderness could easily play home for those players who enjoy the \"evil\" side of role playing games, and become hunting grounds for players who want more of a challenge than the average AI monster can provide.  (Face it, AI monsters are never quite as smart as a live opponent.)  Crimes committed without guards seeing could be brought to trial and human witnesses could give testimony...  The designers would have to decide whether or not they wish to allow false testimony...  Could make for an interesting dynamic...  \"Pay us 10K or me and my buddies will frame you for murder...\"  I can also see it being abused a lot though, so perhaps just say that two witnesses who\'s story agrees with the game\'s record are enough to bring charges.

Punishment:  Either time in a small jailcell, or time at a task.  Time in a jailcell would result in more skill atrophy, time at a task would require that they actually do something other than just log in and go watch a movie while they wait...  Perhaps an option to shorten your sentence by working?  Would take some experimentation methinks...

[Rilar]

I agree with most of what you say

There are a few things I would like to emphasize:

I am taking this to mean picking up something that somebody has set down with the obvious intention of retrieving later.

That should of course include things stored in chests or something comparable.
But this mechanism could make some troubles when you consider that you sometimes put a thing down with the intention that a friend will get it later. So a mechanism would be nice to \"stick a notice\" on the thing you put down, in order to prevent misunderstandings (from the ai).

so perhaps just say that two witnesses who\'s story agrees with the game\'s record are enough to bring charges.

You think that a GM should compare the records with the stories?

Time in a jailcell would result in more skill atrophy, time at a task would require that they actually do something other than just log in and go watch a movie while they wait... Perhaps an option to shorten your sentence by working? Would take some experimentation methinks...

Yep. That is certainly the most difficult problem to solve.

bye,
amogorkon


Edit:
The last problem could be solved as a combination between skill-atrophy and forced labour. In jail the atrophy is highered. You could just sit around and be afk or shorten your sentence by work. But while you work your skills will also drop down. So you could see the time in jail as a fight against time... And when a criminal gets out, he has also to train again to successfully commit a crime...

[Perkins]

GMs or some other appointed judges could review cases which have only human witnesses.  Or, make it so that when one witnesses a crime, one has the option to report it next time one finds a guard.  Provided, of course, that one has not been killed in the meantime.  That would probably be a better option as it would place less strain on the GMs.  Save their time for appeals of complicated cases involving revenge, preemptive self-defence, and that kind of thing.  This would also bring up the possibility of blackmail if a crime is witnessed by a human...  He could threaten to report it if he\'s not paid...  Should therefore be a \"statute of limitations\" on reporting crimes, like a week or so, to keep it from getting out of hand.  Of course, the blackmail target could always simply kill the blackmailer...  

Might be a good idea to make the guards tend to gravitate toward high crime areas to a limited extent as well.  Would force criminals to occasionally change ambush spots...

[Rilar]

that when one witnesses a crime, one has the option to report it next time one finds a guard.

That wont be easy to implement, since the guards dont understand the logic of human language...

Provided, of course, that one has not been killed in the meantime.

Hm, why not? When you die in PS you don`t forget things happened before death.

This would also bring up the possibility of blackmail if a crime is witnessed by a human... He could threaten to report it if he\'s not paid...

That is, of course, a greater problem but has also some positive aspects, i agree

Should therefore be a \"statute of limitations\" on reporting crimes, like a week or so, to keep it from getting out of hand.

Agreed.

Of course, the blackmail target could always simply kill the blackmailer...

That is bad. Players could be getting stuck in vicious circles. This would be of course realistic... but probably not really fun...
If you want to keep the fun but also the option to blackmail someone, it should be officially implemented to possibly have the option to restrict it, if it is needed.
The question is how to realise that.

Might be a good idea to make the guards tend to gravitate toward high crime areas to a limited extent as well. Would force criminals to occasionally change ambush spots...

Yep, that would be nice, but how could the AI figure out where the \"high crime areas\" are?

I have an idea about the backstabbing:
The effect of backstabbing is that the victim dont know who killed him. But since there are different camera-views, the player of the victim could be able to see the name of the attacker, although the char is not seeing him. That would produce a paradox situation: The player knows who killed him, but he would have to pretend in RP that he wouldnt.
So my proposal: The assassine must start his attack outside a specified radius (in RP explained as \"he must sneak to his victim without beeing seen or heard\" ), plus he only could start it, if the victim (-char) does not look in his direction. If those two conditions are fulfilled, the assassine starts an automatic attack, which can be intercepted by the player, but the player cannot do anything else while the automatic sequence is running.
While in backstab-modus, the char is moving without noise to the victim and tries to keep in an angle where the victim cannot see him. Also the name of the attacking char is not visible to the victim, while in this mode. If the backstab is successful, the killing should beeing recorded for everyone visible as \"??? backstabbed Player XYZ\" or simple \"Player XYZ got backstabbed\". Of course, \"inofficially\" the assassines name should appear in the server-logs.
Then there would be also some subtleties about the backstab-modus and when it fail...

amogorkon

[derwoodly]

Right now NPC\'s don\'t move at all, and in other games they have a hard time going from point A to point B! and you want them to track down thieves in a realistic manor?

Sever logs?  What do you think is in them, and Who exactly is saposed to fish through 100\'s of  Megabytes of logs to find the information that your looking for?

You have gone from a complicated 21st century judge and jurry system in a sword and sorcery setting to a AI CSI type of NPC guard.

Did I miss something? Maybe I just don\'t know how good computers are these days, but I don\'t think PS is quite ready for that kind of system.

[Rilar]

Right now NPC\'s don\'t move at all

Are the monsters not moving?

through 100\'s of Megabytes of logs to find the information that your looking for?

I think GMs are well suited for this task. GMs have to search the logs also when someone reported bug-exploiting or similar ... Why not using it for these suggestions?
When you have to search the logs for a case like thieving just search for \"[name of the accused] [*successfully stolen]\"... certainly there are some regular expressions and so on as I know it from Linux. Searching complex system logs is pretty easy when handled right, why not searching game logs?

You have gone from a complicated 21st century judge and jurry system in a sword and sorcery setting to a AI CSI type of NPC guard.

Thats not completely right. The suggestion with the judge and the assessors came from a system as it existed in the middle age. And because there are some non-trivial cases, even in such a game, humans should have the option to override the AI.

Maybe I just don\'t know how good computers are these days, but I don\'t think PS is quite ready for that kind of system.

A computer is only as good as the user behind it. There are many things which are not implemented yet but can be played as RP. And PS is just starting... if we dont think about such systems now, it will probably be too late afterwards...

/me is falling asleep

n8,
amogorkon

[derwoodly]

I usually make a distinction between NPC\'s and Mob\'s.  NPC\'s are trainers, quest givers, guards, and merchants.  Mob\'s are monsters or bad guys who sole purpose is to be killed by players.  

I doubt that GM\'s really want to sort through log files.  Actually, I doubt that there really is log files to begin with.  The server saves your location, inventory, and stats, perodically and when you log out.  Chat and sytem messages are not stored to my knowledge.

Medevil Justice involved torturing you untill you confessed of the crimes you were accused of and then executing you for commiting those crimes.

I think it is time for the Gedankenexperiment!  I will play the part of the \"griefer\" you can tell me how your system will control me.  As background, my character will be named Yack Blacktooth. Untill I get his armor skill to 10 and his sword skill to 50, I will be a \"good guy\". Then I will rollplay Yack as unskilled thief who just kills his victoms and then robs them.  I will attack using the non contestable duel that was mentioned at the begining of the post.  I will choose easy targets in the sewer.  First I will observe how much damage they inflict on a rat, if it is low then I will kill them.  As there are no guards in the sewer I should not have a problem with getting arrested.   When the victoms make it out of the death realm they will of cource want to have me arrested.  That is if they even know that feature exhists.  Once arrested I will claim that the rat that they killed was a pet of mine and I was so disturbed by his death that struck out blindly.  While we are waiting for our court date I will go back to the sewers and do it again.  I think I could kill 5 to 10 newbies in the time it takes to put a court together.  Once convicted I would make a macro for the keystrokes it took to do the prision work and go eat lunch, or play the X box, or rent a movie or whatever.  Then repeat the whole process.

[Rilar]

Medevil Justice involved torturing you untill you confessed of the crimes you were accused of and then executing you for commiting those crimes.

Yep, but torture is impossible to implement, I think so we have to get around this with modern means.

I think it is time for the Gedankenexperiment!

Alright

I will choose easy targets in the sewer.

As I mentioned some time before

In PS, I would propose protection to skilllevel 10 on a weaponskill.

.
So you cant attack really fresh newbies.

As there are no guards in the sewer I should not have a problem with getting arrested.

No computer-played guards, right. But there are also Guards and head-hunters played from humans.

Once arrested I will claim that the rat that they killed was a pet of mine and I was so disturbed by his death that struck out blindly.

Maybe this will work one time...

While we are waiting for our court date I will go back to the sewers and do it again.

When you are accused, you are arrested into security-custody while you are waiting for your court date.

Once convicted I would make a macro for the keystrokes it took to do the prision work and go eat lunch

This is probably a good idea... I wish happy programming because you have to move while you are working... (compare it with /dig as it is now).

I am curious to read your answer

cu,
amogorkon

[derwoodly]

gedanken experiment; thought experiment to wonder at.

Ha ha ha ( I am laughing at my own dumb luck), Your reply about the gedanken experiment got me wondering.  I originally thought it was some sort of made up word that Ragnar-GD had used as a joke.  A look on the German to English translator revealed that it fit the conversation to a T and made me look like I understood German!

Ok back to the topic.

You rule about the skill system protects newbies but it does not protect crafters.  They will most likely have high total skill but a low weapon skill.  If this is the case Yack Blacktooth will  have to do one of two things.  One, get much better at sword fighting, skill level of 100 or more and attack players in Oja city as they are killing rouges. Two find new hunting ground, some place that crafters like to hang out at but away from guards.  However, since crafting in PS at the current time is not popular Blacktooth will have to use option one untill crafting is popular then cut down crafters like wheat on harvest day.

Your rule about being held captive while in custody, is a bit different than what I thought you said earlier.  This makes getting caught a bad thing.  Blacktooth would not want to rob people so blazenly then.  You said something about player guards patrolling the sewers.   Blacktooth would enlist.  Now as a patrolling guard he could just half kill players, loose the battle on purpose then hunt them down with the blessing of the establishment.

When the whole plan backfires some how, then I will need a whole pile of trump up excuses... I did no such thing! Am-heh made me do it!  Really he started it first!  My parrents are being held captive and I need 10,000 Tria to free them... help me please!

P.S. don\'t be a big hurry to read my answers.  With kids, and holidays and summer,  I may be doing other things then web crawling.

[Rilar]

A look on the German to English translator revealed that it fit the conversation to a T and made me look like I understood German!

 
I think the word \"Gedankenexperiment\" is gotten popular with Einstein.

What you imagine is the worst, not the common case... but I think it is good to test it out

You rule about the skill system protects newbies but it does not protect crafters.

That is right. The reason for this rule was the consideration of a guy who utilizes the protection for people with weaponskills under a certain limit (10, as I proposed) to make an easy life...
Crafters are surely some of them who would want such a protection, but that would give away the pressure to create cooperations and it would take some excitement out of the game, isnt it?

One, get much better at sword fighting, skill level of 100 or more and attack players in Oja city as they are killing rouges.

The moment pvp is introduced there will be guards in oja city as well. I think most of the cities will be \"peace zone\" with guards and everything...

Two find new hunting ground, some place that crafters like to hang out at but away from guards.

You are right. And that will be the reason for cooperations between fighters/(human) guards and crafters. And of course the danger will have some effect on the prise

Blacktooth would enlist. Now as a patrolling guard he could just half kill players, loose the battle on purpose then hunt them down with the blessing of the establishment.

Good point. Then I have to ask you whether Blacktooth started the fight or not. If yes, he would loose his job, but would not be marked as criminal because he lost the fight, the winner would not get marked neither, because he did not started it... If not, it is only right that the person who killed him gets marked and punished.

then hunt them down

Them? I would think a griefer will just go after single ones, not a whole group... But if they attack him... he got the right to revenche himself, hasnt he?

I did no such thing!

Bad excuse You cant say the logs are lying...

Am-heh made me do it!

Hard to verify that, but the best means are again the logs...

My parrents are being held captive and I need 10,000 Tria to free them... help me please!

Why are you killing people then? :tdown:

You see, the logs arent necessary for most cases but for the worst case it is good to have them

P.S. don\'t be a big hurry to read my answers. With kids, and holidays and summer, I may be doing other things then web crawling.

Sorry to answer that fast
I wish happy holidays!

amogorkon