to all those in support of open PKing (my first last and only opinion)

[Rilar]

Whether you you win or loose you will disrupt the other players world and they will see you as a griefer. For this you should be labeled as one.

Good argument. With my suggestion someone could abuse by \"attack-stop-attack-stop...\"... Your idea to instant-marking is better in that situation, I acknowledge.

because the victom will want revenge, and we all know revenge is best served instantly

Revenge is not the sole purpose of punishment. Maybe I am too modern for your system, but in a _civilized_ world which PS is meant to be, punishment should also be there to _socialize_ the griefers not just to revenge the victoms.

To help out with the Yack just going afk and running PS in the back ground, I would add a death penalty.

If I were Yack I would go afk, come in 15 minutes again, go out of DR and so on...
If the griefer dies, why should he be punished after death again? Where is the logic behind that? I cant imagine a good explanation for that in RP.

Players who lived through the stoneing would be conisidered to be bessed by the gods and therefore not guilty of the crimes that they were charged of.

I think it is the other way round: the more Yack is guilty, the longer he has to stay at the wall without being redeemed through death. _That_ would be more logical. But then again the problem is: There is nothing to do at the wall besides looking at the people stoning yourself. And that is why I think the wall of shame is a \"soft\" punishment. The hard one is forced labour... Forced labour for notorious griefers, the wall for all who play their role properly as thiefs and murderers.

This is PvP light and it really is not ment for you Amogorkon, you seem to want a system that allows you to play cops and robbers with GMs and player guards.

Is it possible that you overlooked something? In my system there is ONLY a trial and court when the crime is NOT OBVIOUS (open pvp, open robbery, etc.). And there are numerous NPC-GUARDS to play \"cops and robbers\". I am trying to create a system where ALL can be happy, not just cops and crafters OR robbers.

best regards,
amogorkon

[Perkins]

There are some decent ideas in here, and some odd ones.

To start with, instant marking, and no looting would make it fairly pointless to ever pk.  I mean, you can\'t possibly get away with it, and you don\'t get anything out of it, so why bother unless your whole goal in life is to torment others?  There is talk at some point of players being able to give up an item to skip having to travel through the death realm.  It might be an interesting idea to give that item to the pker...  Though smart people wouldn\'t give up an item when they\'d been pked...

If we\'re going to do any of this, then assault should definitely be a punishable crime.  That gets rid of the problems with people attacking just to harass people and stopping short of killing them.

Being stuck on the wall and having to get back out of the DR if you die to finish your sentence isn\'t a bad idea...  Though the idea of forced labour has merit as well...  Perhaps the ability for people to put those who are stuck on the wall to work at specific tasks like mining...  I don\'t know for sure.  I would like to see this game develop a realistic, stable economy.  Slave labour from captured criminals could be part of that...

Lots to think about here...  Unfortunately, the only way I can think of to find out if most of this will work would be to test it and see...  So It\'s probably a long way off.

[derwoodly]

The system of modern justice for PvP as I understand it has four parts.  Attack, Capture, Judge, Punishment.  These for parts have been discussed seperately in other posts.

The Attack.

This is where you proposed letting players attack other players anywhere and anytime by doing an non-consentual attack through some sort of option menu.  This is not much different that just free for all PvP.  It is not a good idea to let people attack in town where people do shopping and training.  Someone might say but it is realistic to be attacked while your shopping.  Realistic or not it is just not fun to have two, three or four windows open and be involved in some sort of transaction and get killed because you were too busy with the popup menus.  

Even hard core PvP games usually have some sort of safe zone.  If you want to have safe zones where PvP is not allowed with the non-consentual PvP, then you already have that.  The arena is just such a zone. You dont even have to bother with a popup question, just attack.  So all you really need is more PvP arenas.  It is just a question a the size and location of the PvP zone.  Thus; you do not need any special non-consentual attack mode.  Look for posts that say what type of PvP should PS have to find more information on this subject.  The synopsis of those posts is that the system we have now is the system that we will always have. PvP everywhere is not going to happen, eventually there may be PvP zones away from town as well as more conventional arenas.

Capture.

I proposed instant capture when the crime was reported.  The reason I proposed such a system is that any other system is will become a Bounty hunter system.  For reasons why this is not a good thing, you can read anyone of the other posts where the bounty hunter idea has been proposed. There are a lot of them, and none of them promote good fantasy roleplay.  

Any bounty hunter system will break down to a game of cat and mouse, which will then encourage powergamers and Pkers, but do nothing for Roleplayers.  Bounty hunter systems on MMORPG\'s will also have to deal with players logging off to aviod capture. And if that is not enough, bounty hunter system do not scale well.   When groups of Pkers attack in mass then the bounty hunters have to run for the hills, or retalate in mass.  Then when that happens you have a non-consentual guild war, and just general mayham that scares newbies away.

Judge.

Here is where the modern justic system is unique.  Usually if you have been reported and captured you are assumed to be guilty and automatically punished.  The system amogorkon proposed would use a GM as a judge and two other random and anonomous jurors.  This is a time consuming process and could easily be overruled be the GM.  Assuming the jurors found the defendant to be inocent, the GM could still use ther GM powers and permantly delete the defendants account.  Thus the need for jurors baffles me.  Typcally GM\'s are called on to police the world and ban griefers.  They do not need help from random players.  PS has a report feature and GM\'s.  The GM can conduct justice via chat windows and does not need to capture the bad guy.  

Punishment.

You propose a work gang type of punishment that involved minning or digging.  This is a good punishment. I personally liked the wall of shame/stockades.  Both do the same thing in my book.  They lock up the Pkers and keep them off the streets for a while.  If they don\'t get the hint then GM\'s can delete characters or ban accounts.  For more ideas on punishment search for the pickpockets posts.

In conclusion.

The justice system, has been propsed before at least in bits and pieces. It would be more productive to find some of the other posts and add ideas to them instead of going on with this post and tying the dead horse of PK to it and clubbing it with sledge-o-matic maul of newbe slauter.

[Rilar]

Realistic or not it is just not fun to have two, three or four windows open and be involved in some sort of transaction and get killed because you were too busy with the popup menus.

Good point. Open PK in a shopping-zone would be annoying... But again you have to differentiate between not-consensual (open) PK, backstabbing, open robbery (grabbing things laying on the ground or from a certain place, so that it is obvious who the owner is) and pickpocketing. Dont forget that the justicesystem must be adequate to all those crimes!

Any bounty hunter system will break down to a game of cat and mouse, which will then encourage powergamers and Pkers, but do nothing for Roleplayers.

Hm... You have to take the game-guards into account! What do you think of the possibility of get mercenaries? I imagine a trading-guilt which hires some (AI-)guards for protection... That could also bring some balance into the game.

Any bounty hunter system will break down to a game of cat and mouse, which will then encourage powergamers and Pkers, but do nothing for Roleplayers.

Do you have an example for that? Any game you experienced this? I dont have any bad experience with that...

And if that is not enough, bounty hunter system do not scale well.

Here I must disagree. I already proposed AI-guards who adapts to the criminals not only in the damage, but also in the number of the registered criminals in a specified area. The moment 100 pkers get into the city, 200 (or 300?) guards are spawned. The strength of the guards could be orientated on the strongest attacker...

Typcally GM\'s are called on to police the world and ban griefers.

And that is exactly why I suggested my system There was the argument that GMs would rarely make a decision which is consensual with everyone => I introduced the jurors as counterbalance to the force of the GMs.

the GM could still use ther GM powers and permantly delete the defendants account.

A person who uses his priviliges to override the RP-rules should be reported and loose at least his GM-status. I think abuse of priviliges is worse than \"normal\" griefing. As normal griefer you often have numerous players with similar skills against you but as GM normal players hardly can do something against you... I think THIS is a little bit too off-topic, btw.

Slave labour from captured criminals could be part of that...

Hey, cool idea! How about a sort of compensation for pain and suffering? The accused also has to pay a certain amount of money to the victom. If he has not enough money, the sentence could be highered like this:
The accused has a crimecounter (cc)=15
juror A wants to add 10, juror B 20 and the judge 25. (10+20+24)/3=18
15+18=33
They also agree on a payment of 10000 trias to the victom. But the accused only has 7000. The rest is given from the game to the victom. So the accused has to work for 3000 trias.
1tria = 1sec => so he also has to work for 3000 sec= 50 min.
A cc of 42* 5(?) min + 50 min = 260 = 4,3 hours forced labour.

@perkins I dislike instant marking and I also proposed the looting of money... Could it be that the posts are too long to be read by everyone?

amogorkon

[Perkins]

There would definitely need to be AI guards.  Just make them fast, unkillable, and arm them with nets for catching criminals.  Shop areas could either be non-pk zones, or simply have enough guards to make escape after an attack close to impossible.  The bounty hunters would only come into play for rooting out those criminals who go into hiding somewhere.  It would be a game of cat and mouse, but it wouldn\'t really matter since those who did not wish to participate could stay close to the guard patrols.  There should probably be some fighting areas that are non-pk zones though.  The idea being that players should have someplace to go to gain experience without risking attack from other humans.

[derwoodly]

Originally posted by amogorkon
... But again you have to differentiate between not-consensual (open) PK, backstabbing, open robbery (grabbing things laying on the ground or from a certain place, so that it is obvious who the owner is) and pick pocketing. Dont forget that the justice system must be adequate to all those crimes!

If I must differentiate ?
Not-consensual PK:  Also known as griefing, mugging, or random PK.  It works the same as arena combat but, can be done outside the arena.  It makes you a criminal. It is the main topic of this thread.  I proposed you be stuck to a wall and pelted by stones for a period of 24 hours of in game time.
Backstabbing: Physically stabbing someone in the back while they are unaware. Allowable only in the same areas that non-consensual combat is allowed.  Should be punished the same as the above crime.
Grabbing things off the ground: not part of the PvP system, currently allowed in the game and is not considered a crime at all.  Finders keepers looser?s weepers.  Petition a GM if you don?t like it.
Pick pocketing: Discussed in other threads in better detail than it is in this one.  If thief fails he should be shackled to the wall and pelted with stones.

Any bounty hunter system will break down to a game of cat and mouse, which will then encourage power gamers and Pkers, but do nothing for Role players.

Hm... You have to take the game-guards into account! What do you think of the possibility of get mercenaries? I imagine a trading-guilt which hires some (AI-)guards for protection... That could also bring some balance into the game.

Any bounty hunter system will break down to a game of cat and mouse, which will then encourage power gamers and Pkers, but do nothing for Role players.

Do you have an example for that? Any game you experienced this? I don?t have any bad experience with that...

And if that is not enough, bounty hunter system do not scale well.

Here I must disagree. I already proposed AI-guards who adapts to the criminals not only in the damage, but also in the number of the registered criminals in a specified area. The moment 100 pkers get into the city, 200 (or 300?) guards are spawned. The strength of the guards could be orientated on the strongest attacker...

I have not played a game with NPC bounty hunters in it.  I have played EQ on a red server, DaoC, and Shadowbane. These games do have players that you can hire to hunt down other players, but this did nothing to discourage players from Pking.  It actually encourages it.  The role players who have not made PvP characters are generally not happy in this environment.  You end up with only two kinds of players. Pkers and anti Pkers.  This is what I meant by my comment.  What game have you played that has a good bounty hunter system in it?

Typically GM\'s are called on to police the world and ban griefers.

And that is exactly why I suggested my system There was the argument that GMs would rarely make a decision which is consensual with everyone => I introduced the jurors as counterbalance to the force of the GMs.

the GM could still use their GM powers and permanently delete the defendants account.

A person who uses his privileges to override the RP-rules should be reported and loose at least his GM-status. I think abuse of privileges is worse than \"normal\" griefing. As normal griefer you often have numerous players with similar skills against you but as GM normal players hardly can do something against you... I think THIS is a little bit too off-topic, btw.

Your system involved GM?s as judges, I mentioned the abuse of GM?s powers as it pertains to there job as a judge.  If they don?t like the outcome of the trial they will be tempted to administer their own justice independently of the trial system.  The fact that GM?s already act as game cops, and judges, makes having to conduct a jury trial redundant.  To state it in another way.  When someone does not like the outcome of a particular encounter they can petition a GM and they will act as bounty hunter, judge, and if necessary, executioner.  Why would I bother reporting a crime to just to have a NPC/Player bounty hunter track down the other guy, then explain what happened to a panel of to random players and one GM just to get player sent to a chain gang? I could petition a GM and get them thrown out of the game.

Slave labor from captured criminals could be part of that...

Hey, cool idea! How about a sort of compensation for pain and suffering? The accused also has to pay a certain amount of money to the victim. If he has not enough money, the sentence could be highered like this:
The accused has a crime counter (cc)=15
juror A wants to add 10, juror B 20 and the judge 25. (10+20+24)/3=18
15+18=33
They also agree on a payment of 10000 trias to the victim. But the accused only has 7000. The rest is given from the game to the victim. So the accused has to work for 3000 trias.
1tria = 1sec => so he also has to work for 3000 sec= 50 min.
A cc of 42* 5(?) min + 50 min = 260 = 4,3 hours forced labor.

Looks like math homework to me.  Yes 15+18 = 33 but what does that have to do with four and a third hours of forced labor?  

Ten Thousand Trias! Yahhooweee! I want to be a victim where do I sign up!!!

@ Perkins, just save a step and insta-port them into custody
[Side note: Spell checker wuz here]

[Edit: I am adding a post from Paxx from the Prison thread in Wish list forum.  It indicates that your forced labor idea is possible, looks like my stoning idea is not.]

---- From Paxx\'s post ----
Prison if implemented will be not only for a while online, but also requiring your attention. In essence?remedial labor for your character. Escape?no. makes the prison stupid, jail break possibly.

The goal of prison is to deter certain actions, as a deterrent, in this game it should be time. If it was offline time, then I log on with another character and play, if it is online and not needed, I would log on and leave the character staring at the wall and go to sleep.

Reasons for prison will be based on things you have not really thought about, my vision is more for guild wars?.ah you got caught in our guild fort trying to sabotage our defenses?you must repair the damage your group has done. 30 min of stupid clicking.

Not in newbie PKing cause there will be no newbie PKing.

Now what would really suck is if a master thief gets caught in a place he is well known for trying to steal the equivalent of the crown jewels?100 hours of stupid clicking for you :-)

Just an idea, but it is being thought about.

At issue is who sets the prison term and what is ?balanced? if I am an evil warlord and I catch 5 goodie paladins trying to defeat me?and choose 200 hours of stupid clicking?those players might just forget those characters and delete them. Or different groups might get into a max sentence frenzy just to make sure no one comes against them.

But 5 min ? 1 hour might be ok until the devs decide this character needs more time?bwahaha.

But there are many options and they will be reviewed?ransoms is medieval enough?as long as it is money or somesuch. I just don?t want to see it abused and as such it is necessary to figure out.

It could be set upon guild war stance?all who are captured will be imprisoned for 5 min ? 2 hours, and it is the same for both/all sides.

Dependant on the rancor on both sides it might make it interesting?2 hours it is?guild who forfeits gives up 100000 tira.

Or it can be light hearted fun, Paladins Vs. Evils 5 min imprisonment forfeit loose guild flag for 3 days.

Just some thoughts.


__________________
-Paxx

I would have just posted the link, but the thread is long.

[Rilar]

This is what I meant by my comment. What game have you played that has a good bounty hunter system in it?

I think you are asking me about a game with a good AI which hunts you in any way?
Baldurs Gate 1+2, Jagged Alliance 2, you could even count Unreal and Unreal Tournament. The best example which resembles PS and has a really good AI is Dark Project 1+2.

Looks like math homework to me. Yes 15+18 = 33 but what does that have to do with four and a third hours of forced labor?

33 is the cc with which the game determines the time being in jail. I assumed 5 min per 1 point of the crime-counter.

I could petition a GM and get them thrown out of the game.

In my opinion, at the end of the development, there shouldnt be anymore the need for the title \"Game Master\". GMs are like gods for normal players... And do you know any god which can be called anytime to punish someone you wish? A GM who acts like you said makes himself ridiculous and unpopular. I admit my system cant compete with the powers of \"gods\", but that never was its goal.

amogorkon

[Perkins]

*holds head while trying to figure out the quoted quotes and such*

Ok.  I have played games with NPC Guards and bounty hunters.  It seems to work fairly well.  The reason for not insta-teleporting people to jail is simple.  If you do that, then there is no way to get away with committing a crime.  If there\'s no way to get away with it, then practically nobody will ever do it, making the whole system a waste of the programmer\'s time...  I have led the guards on many a merry chase in a couple other games, matching my human intelligence against their enhanced speed and invincibility...  They always managed to catch me in the end.  Some other human would tend to trip me up just long enough for them to grab me, but it was always fun while it lasted.  Most of these scenarios resulted from a mistyped command, or a bug in the game.  If I\'d been insta-teleported to prison I would have become extremely frustrated in a very short length of time.  Escape from prison was also posible, though doing so was difficult and added to your prison time when you were recaptured...  But hey, some people seem to enjoy that kind of thing...

The big thing is that there should be some safe zones, where either you cannot attack other players, or where there are enough guards standing around that doing so would be sheer lunacy.  That would let those who are not interested in combat with other players avoid it.  

Second alternative would be to allow people to decide when they create a character whether it will be a PK character or not.  If it is, then they can attack and be attacked at will, otherwise it\'s safe.  Perhaps have an option to convert between the two at the temple for a hefty price...

[Rilar]

Originally posted by Perkins
Second alternative would be to allow people to decide when they create a character whether it will be a PK character or not.  If it is, then they can attack and be attacked at will, otherwise it\'s safe.  Perhaps have an option to convert between the two at the temple for a hefty price...

?( *tries to imagine*
Maybe that alternative would be a adequate if we had a splittet world: non-pvp > instant punishment or no combat at all / free pvp - no law or similar
But if we choose the \"balanced pvp\" with as much logic and realism as possible, I think an \"invincible\" char (because he chose to be peaceful) is not right. And another argument against that: It would be unlogical that a \"peaceful\" char could even attack mobs...
It would be more than paradox in such a world: on one side peace and flowers... on the other blood and fighting everywhere... *headshaking*

I am definitely for the first alternative  

amogorkon

[Aznakh]

What about factionbased PVP ? Like implementing racial wars as the storyline progresses.
PVP can be a very constructive asset to a stroylinebuilding. You could for example create a war between the Karn and the Diabli and create a point system. Once the war is over and the respective gouvernments make peace (e.g. one capitulates to the other, which could be done by having one faction reach a certain amount of total target points) the winning party takes the spoils of war.
Another nice idea for PVP would be guild wars which could be triggered by a real ingame political system.
I don\'t think however that rogue PVPing is going to help the atmosphere in the game and would be rather a downturner.

Just my opinion.

[derwoodly]

@ Amogkron-- I am asking you what MMORPG\'s have good bounty hunters systems.  Unreal is a FPS and is not a good example of the way PS is saposed to work!

@Perkins-- What is the name of the game you played with the bounty hunter system in it.

@Aznakh have you read the whole post?

[Perkins]

Wyvern has a \"player killer guild\" for the people who want to fight with each other, and bounty hunting is allowed last time I checked.  Of course, it doesn\'t happen much because it\'s hard to identify criminals, and the guards almost always get them first...

[Rilar]

@ derwoodly:

I am asking you what MMORPG\'s have good bounty hunters systems. Unreal is a FPS and is not a good example of the way PS is saposed to work!

I admit, I rarely played another mmorpg as PS, so I cant speak with experience of bounty hunting systems in mmorpgs. My examples refer to games with NPCs which has a good AI to keep you moving. Imagine guards with an AI similar to the one of Unreal Tournament on \"godlike\" or guards like those in Dark Project...

[derwoodly]

I am prety sure that the PS guards will not be jumping arround like fleas while pelting you with spells or arrows.  The AI in unreal is not that good either.  They always follow the same paterens, and stop in the same spots.  If you get into a good sniper location you can kill them over and over again.  In God mode they are tough to beat beacause they almost never miss and fire on the run.

PS guards will have some of the same problems.  They will have to have some sort of pathing code to make them walk arround obsticles.  When this fails they will either get stuck, or teleport arround the obsticle.  You can make them god like in there skills, but how does that work for roleplay.  Town guards should not be supper hero\'s.  Guards are usually not the towns best fighters, they are there to sound the alarm and shoot a few arrows from safty.  The guards on the ground should be better, but not better than a typical fantasy hero.  However, currently you get your training from what looks like guards to me and trainers should be very very good at what they train in.

I don\'t know, maybe a bounty hunter system can work.  However, Paxx does not like the idea and pointing to a FPS game as an example of how a MMORPG can work will not convince anyone of its merits.

I am pounding the bounty hunter system because in order for your modern justice system to work, you need a good bounty hunter system.  I still have not heard how players who kill then log off imediately after words should be handled.

@ Perkins
The Player killer guild is just what PS developers fear.   If you have a whole guild of PKer matters are worse for players who are not as competitive as the guild members.  The developers have stated that they did not want to make a free Shadowbane type of game.  And judging by the success of Shadowbane, nobody else will want to do it either.

[Perkins]

You\'re misunderstanding what I meant by player killer guild.  Wyvern is a MUD.  The guilds are fixed, and joining them alters your character\'s abilities.  If you join the PK guild, you are then allowed to kill other members of the PK guild wherever and whenever you find them.  You still cannot touch non-guild players.  Attacking people in a city is still a crime, but PK criminals may be hunted by other PK guild members.  Though, as I said, the guards usually get them first.  It seems to work fairly well.  The competitive players get to be competitive, and the non-competitive players get left alone.

The guards would not have to be any more intelligent than the average monster should be.  Enough pathfinding skills to walk around a couple corners, and a zone that they stay in.  Make them extremely difficult to kill, and add an annoying tendency for more to teleport in if things are going badly for them.  Arm them with steel-mesh nets to throw on people to catch them when they get close, and post them in locations that a wanted criminal will have to walk past if he wants to do more than skulk in some back alley somewhere.

What to do with criminals who log off whenever they\'re attacked...  Now that\'s an interesting question.  The AI guards wouldn\'t have a problem with it, since, when he signs back in, he\'ll still be standing in front of them...  I can think of several solutions for the bounty hunters...  Ranging from the simple to the extremely complicated...

Simple is to make it so that your character sticks around for a little while after you log off.  Not forever, just like a minute or so.  This would add a tiny bit of realism, since you couldn\'t expect to be safe if you sign off in the middle of a fight in a dungeon, and it would give the bounty hunters a chance to finish off the cowards who like to run.

Complicated ranges from setting traps that they will trigger when they return, to some kind of notification when they come back, to the ability to hire AI mercenaries to wait for him.