[GUILD] The Dragon Council

[Tarel]

Originally posted by Rioth

Originally posted by zanzibar
I have news for you:  They did it.  And I have even more news for you:  I don\'t do it. Surprise surprise.  Of course, you\'ll probably continue to believe that your guild is capable of no wrong... which is part of the problem people have with it.

Originally posted by Rioth
Noooo, really ?? What a surprise !

...

Think about it twice, a guild is an organisation of players by the fact that they achieve things together. When the guild matters are not involved, the players are doing things on their behalf and not on the guild\'s behalf. They may have done it or not. And would they have done so, no one is perfect. Only thing I know now is that they are not doing it and it\'s enough for me.

And about the fact that you\'re killstealing, yes you are doing it. And what\'s surprising is that I\'ve actualy heard complaints about YOU killstealing. So, are you surprised ? I guess not...

Every member is responsible for his own actions.
I have not heared any complaint about a member
of the Dragon Councill too. I have not seen or heared
anything as Dragon High Master.
And in the moments i was working as Dark Dragon
i found no complaints about any member too.
It\'s my job to screen our members from time to time.
Sometimes i talk with the Game Masters too about
the Dragon Council and they did not tell me about
complaints too.
I want a fair play ingame and report all players to the GM, who doesn\'t play fair. the Gm\'s respond to it and
teleport to me, to see on they\'re own.
This way a couple of players got official warnings of GM\'s.

Everyone who has complaints about a member of DC
can tell it to us and show prove by screenshots and chatlogs. All complaints are taken seriousby me,
But a member of DC is right, untill the opposite is proven.

Originally posted by zanzibar
This is part of the problem as well.  You don\'t know what\'s happening in your own guild.

Originally posted by Rioth
Don\'t make me laugh. I know better than anyone what\'s happening in my guild. And if by that you were refering to what my guild members are doing outside of the guild\'s matters, then read again what\'s just before. And don\'t think that I don\'t care about what my members could do outside of the guild\'s matters, because this would be false. However, I\'ve my own ways of dealing with this. You may see that as good ways or bad ones, that\'s your opinion. Now let me remind you of something else... This is my guild. And if you really think that I\'m ruling it badly, then it\'s your problem. Not mine. But why don\'t you start your own guild to show me what you can do ? Instead of runing from guilds to guilds doing whatever you\'ve got in mind...

If Rioth should not know what is going on in the Guild,
Then the Dragon High Master and me are not doing
our jobs well.
If Rioth is away, then we manage the Guild for him.
If something happened in the Guild or ingame,
then we contact Rioth, so he does know what is going on in his Guild.

So to conclude my message.
We have not heared of any complaints about our
members.
And all guilds, that we have adresses from got a mail
from the Dragon Council to report misbehaving
members of the Dragon Council to us.

[zanzibar]

Originally posted by Rioth Only thing I know now is that they are not doing it and it\'s enough for me.

I haven\'t seen them do it in quite a while, but they were going all out when they were doing it, and they were doing it at one point.  And more.

Originally posted by Rioth
And about the fact that you\'re killstealing, yes you are doing it.

That\'s very nice.... except that I am not kill stealing.

Originally posted by zanzibar
And don\'t think that I don\'t care about what my members could do outside of the guild\'s matters, because this would be false.

I think you care.  I just think you don\'t know the truth of the matter, whether it\'s about me or it\'s about certain members of your guild or it\'s about what people think about the DC.  My understanding is that Esserfin, Aucices, and Bodacher are all higher ups in your guild.  That gave them every opportunity to block evidence against themselves and to manufacture evidence against their accusers.

This is starting to go on a tangent however.

[Tarel]

Originally posted by zanzibar
And don\'t think that I don\'t care about what my members could do outside of the guild\'s matters, because this would be false.

I think you care.  I just think you don\'t know the truth of the matter, whether it\'s about me or it\'s about certain members of your guild or it\'s about what people think about the DC.  My understanding is that Esserfin, Aucices, and Bodacher are all higher ups in your guild.  That gave them every opportunity to block evidence against themselves and to manufacture evidence against their accusers.

This is starting to go on a tangent however.

I can tell you Shalmaneser, that they are higher ranked yes.
They could block evidence towards Rioth yes,
but they cannot block information towards me.
I am independent in the Dragon Council and i allowed
to do everything to screen our Members and to protect the safety of the Dragon Council.
This way my knowledge is Rioth\'s knowledge.
And no one besides Rioth can see, what information
i collected about our members.
If i got a complaint about them, i would have screened them, without they knowing it.
And i am doing my work for a few months already.
I am not excluding any member for screening and tell
Rioth all i find about the members.
Even before the war with TBoA started i was screening already.

[zanzibar]

I was playing for a long time before I was even in Twin Blades of Arete, and that\'s when most of the trouble was happening.


It\'s very nice that you never heard of the trouble, but that does NOT mean it didn\'t happen.

[Tarel]

Originally posted by zanzibar
I was playing for a long time before I was even in Twin Blades of Arete, and that\'s when most of the trouble was happening.


It\'s very nice that you never heard of the trouble, but that does NOT mean it didn\'t happen.

I understand it.
At this moment we dont want any problems like before anymore.

If i get a complaint about a member, i will look into it.
And when complaint is true,
then there will be actions taken against the members.
This could be done by a warning,
but also by banning out of the Dragon Council.
We have a Dragon Trial Council to decide what action
will be taken against the Member.

[zanzibar]

That\'s very nice.  But here\'s me saying something happened, and there\'s you guys saying there\'s no chance in heck that I saw what I saw and was told what I was told.

[Pestilence]

Sorry to say this Shal but I have seen you killstealing. Not saying I saw you do it anytime recently or that you did it all the time, but you have done it and seeing others are saying the same do you think it\'s strange people not believe you when you claim others do it when you don\'t even admit you have done it yourself?

Don\'t think the way you left the twin blades and such adds much to your credibility, so unless you have some proof who do you think people are going to believe?

People like Esserfin who I know has repeatedly spoken out against using of cheats and has done this by example or someone with a questionable reputatation about killstealing, rulebreaking and general annoyance? Not to be harsh but you have to admit there have been others who have pointed at you.

[darkw00t]

so i am guessing zanzibar is shalm,

[Valbrandr]

I dont have a problem with DC.  Sure.. all of their members are PLers.  That cannot be denied.  But I dont PL enough myself to know whether they kill steal.  And about Shal.. ok yeah he overreacts too often.  But I do not know him to be a liar.  And in consideration that some others have come out against DC in the past.. and having as large of a guild as you were.. Im sure many things happened that never reached Rioth, especially when he was inactive.  I think that, that is part of the reason mass recruiters (not saying you are now but you were) get very little respect.. because for the most part it is impossible to watch that many people.

[Pestilence]

PS: the ones I saw complain about you in the forums here Shal had no ties with the Dragon Council as far as I know.

And yep Shalmaneser ingame and also Shal I believe, but can\'t keep track of all his aliasses anymore as I have been hardly ingame the last weeks I am afraiid

PS to Val:
In my opinion Shal always thought his transgrations ment nothing while if someone did the same to him it was a cardinal sin. He has a habit of getting angry at someone for something small and not understanding why someone doesn\'t like what he is doing.

Clear example is that reserving a single creature with a group is a sin against him if he doesn\'t want to share, but that he steals dark axes and such when admitted to such a group and even known to hog the mercenary all by himself when he found a shortcut to be faster then the others.

These events happened with a group without DC members BTW I just happened to walk by when it happened and stopped to see what was happening

[zanzibar]

Originally posted by Pestilence
Sorry to say this Shal but I have seen you killstealing. Not saying I saw you do it anytime recently or that you did it all the time, but you have done it and seeing others are saying the same do you think it\'s strange people not believe you when you claim others do it when you don\'t even admit you have done it yourself?

I said I don\'t do it now, while Rioth and others (Zayek included) love parrotting that I do it presently.  When I was doing it, I didn\'t realize that what I was doing was considered kill stealing.  That is attacking something before someone else and killing it.  Because I wasn\'t using the arrow spell or any other glitch, I thought that what I was doing wasn\'t kill stealing.  Since Zayek gave me his personal definition of kill stealing, I have abided by it.  An official definition was created, but I have yet to see it released.

Originally posted by Pestilence
Don\'t think the way you left the twin blades and such adds much to your credibility, so unless you have some proof who do you think people are going to believe?

What the hell does that have to do with anything?  I don\'t care if you believe me -- if you don\'t believe me, it only reflects on you, suggesting that you are both judgemental and narrowminded.  This isn\'t an issue of my word versus Rioths.  This is about something I saw, and I\'m saying it happened.  You can choose to dismiss it if you wish, but that doesn\'t change the facts.

Originally posted by Pestilence
People like Esserfin who I know has repeatedly spoken out against using of cheats and has done this by example or someone with a questionable reputatation about killstealing, rulebreaking and general annoyance? Not to be harsh but you have to admit there have been others who have pointed at you.

Yeah yeah yeah.  Parrot it all you like, you\'re ignoring what I\'ve been saying so what\'s the point in talking it out?

[zanzibar]

Originally posted by Pestilence
In my opinion Shal always thought his transgrations ment nothing while if someone did the same to him it was a cardinal sin. He has a habit of getting angry at someone for something small and not understanding why someone doesn\'t like what he is doing.

Clear example is that reserving a single creature with a group is a sin against him if he doesn\'t want to share, but that he steals dark axes and such when admitted to such a group and even known to hog the mercenary all by himself when he found a shortcut to be faster then the others.

These events happened with a group without DC members BTW I just happened to walk by when it happened and stopped to see what was happening

during this series of events DC members were present.  Not at all times though.  I am refering to the period when the arena merc was the only source of special weapons.  You\'re ignoring key points:

-- The group who were there were monopolizing the spawn and were systematically excluding anyone else who came along.

-- They got GMs to harrass me three different times for the same thing.  The first time, the GM ruled I was right.  The second time, the GM wouldn\'t rule but ordered us to get along.  The third time, one GM said they were right and two other GMs said I was right.  All in all, 5 GMs were brought in to deal with the same complaint made over and over again.

-- I did not realize that going after a monster fair and square was considered kill stealing if someone else had the INTENTION of killing it.  Up to that point, I thought kill stealing was using the arrow glitch to interupt someone else\'s attack.


You should also refer to various other posts I\'ve made on this subject.  I go out of my way to give polite, intelligent responses to people, but it seems as if people like you and Rioth don\'t bother to read the damned things.

[Rioth]

...

Look Shal... I said that you are kill stealing, because I know it, maybe not at the precise moment, but anyway you\'ve done it, just like Ess and Auc if you say they\'ve done it. Only thing is that they have stopped (if they were doing it), and according to you, you\'ve stopped too. So why do you blame others that are in the very same case than you ? And what make you think I\'m parroting around the place saying you\'re kill stealing ? I\'ve never done so.

@Valbrandr: I assume that by \"PLers\" you meant power levelers... And in that case please consider that this is wrong. We play for what is in the game. May it be leveling in our skills or roleplaying together or with other people. Just pass by the tavern one day or another when we are organising a party, you would be more than welcome. We may have been a very big guild at a time, but a lot of people were inactives and we were not mass recruiting. We have always been growing at a steady rate. Knowing a wipe would occur (sooner or later) we decided not to wipe the inactive members. We have changed our guild\'s policies concerning recruitment and inactivity now and we are growing at a steady rate again (even if it is currently a slower rate than before). You say that while I was inactive I couldn\'t watch over my guild. That may be true, but other people were doing it for me. And it\'s not because one have a big guild that he can\'t rule it well. We have our set of rules to deal with all of this and while it has proven it\'s worth before, it will surely prove it\'s worth soon again.

And again... Players have their own life outside the guild, you can\'t reproach to a guild what players are
doing on their behalf. And even then, it\'s the guild\'s job to judge if the behaviour of the players can be tolerated within it or not.

[Valbrandr]

The only time I have seen DC members in the tavern is when you are on Rioth.  They take a break from 10-12 hours of PLing and head over to the tavern.  Everytime I have been in the arena there are three or so DC members in there.. and I check who is online and there are only 3 to 5 total.  I understand many of us have been reduced to campers, but they spend 99% of time in arena, 1% of time in tavern talking/somewhat RPing with you.

[zanzibar]

Originally posted by Rioth
...

Look Shal... I said that you are kill stealing, because I know it, maybe not at the precise moment, but anyway you\'ve done it, just like Ess and Auc if you say they\'ve done it.

NO.  NOT JUST LIKE ESS AND AUC.  They did it INTENTIONALLY, using a GLITCH.

And by saying that your guild isn\'t made up of power levellers, you\'re only further proving that you\'re out of touch with your own guild.