Author Topic: The game feels claustrophobic, suspension of disbelief is lacking, no  (Read 3371 times)

Bnm85

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...no real danger.

I want to say something right away - I am looking forward to this game. I\'m not trying to find reasons not to play it or put it down. If I didn\'t have hopes that the game might become great or the best MMO, I wouldn\'t even care about posting the suggestions and impressions. Any \"complains\" or suggestions I post are not meant to put down PS devs. This is simply honest opinion of a player who tries to picture playing this game for a long time. If you play something for a long time, might as well enjoy it as much as you can. Also, I understand that this is only a tech demo, so I do have hopes that a lot of things that concern me now will be changed. So, now that this is out of the way, let\'s get on with my post.

First, the game feels very claustrophobic. I\'m all for originality and such but not when it hurts the overall atmosphere. The sky, for example, leaves a lot to be desired, whether it\'s daytime or nighttime. Now, I know that we\'re underground, with the only source of light being the crystal but the reminder of it in game is exremely painful and unenjoyable. Not just from a game point of view but from a technical point of view. Never have I been reminded so much of the dreaded \"bounding box\" in the game, as in PlanShift. The result is that suspension of disbelief is ruined. Didn\'t the story say that no one can get too close to the crystal? So, why does it feel like it and the ceiling/walls are practically pressing onto your head? For example, let\'s compare the sky in PS and WoW.

Here\'s the WoW\'s beautiful nightsky:

http://img123.imageshack.us/img123/3155/nightsky23qg.jpg

http://img214.imageshack.us/img214/5797/nightsky1pe.jpg

Doesn\'t feel claustrophobic at all.

And here\'s PS\' sky (day or night, they look the same, with night being more dimmed):

http://img160.imageshack.us/img160/8315/shot025xz.jpg

We can already see the \"walls\" or \"ceiling\" pressing so close. It just doesn\'t feel like freedom. It feels like being trapped in a box. This is even further illustrated by this image:

http://img259.imageshack.us/img259/1360/shot033dv.jpg

Not only is the texture either really compressed or low resolution, it feels like being inside a can. It feels like I can just raise my arm and be able to touch it.

The next shot is actually kind of neat (taken from a place you sould not normally be able to get to):

http://img259.imageshack.us/img259/3766/shot048ae.jpg

I think the game is really limiting itself here. I mean, the crystal is supposed to be magical and really powerful but yet it barely lights up the top of the \"underground\". Just look at it in relation to the towers that are visible. It looks like the whole place is extremely small. There\'s no sense of the unknown that lies far ahead. You already know what lies far ahead - another darn cave wall or \"end of the world\".

Here\'s another claustrophobic shot in relation to a tower:

http://img259.imageshack.us/img259/3310/shot058rx.jpg

Perhaps it wouldn\'t be so bad if the sky texture that shows the walls/ceiling wasn\'t so low res or compressed.

Compare it to these WoW screenshots:

http://img214.imageshack.us/img214/1505/water7zl.jpg

http://img241.imageshack.us/img241/6985/water23pv.jpg

These really show a sense of unknown beyond. While in PS, we probably won\'t even see any rivers or lakes that hold a mystery beyond them, except at the bottom level maybe.

Here\'s a really great shot of WoW\'s sky and water:

http://img160.imageshack.us/img160/7592/nightskyandwater4mk.jpg

It really gives a sense of freedom above you and the unknown that lies ahead.

I\'m asking - why limit yourself? Frankly, I wish the game would be based on a normal land/planet with the nightsky, the stars, and the moon, and clouds and sun in the daytime. I understand that this game is trying to be different and original but in this case, being trapped underground seems like its limiting itself. However, I don\'t want to disrespect someone\'s vision of such an interesting world. So, if we\'re going to stick to it, why not explore the fact that the azure crystal is extremely powerful and magical? Why always have a static weakly lit and pixelated sky? It\'s magical after all! Why not create unusual magical energies in the sky? Perhaps it can have a similar effect to falling stars (comets), various energy spikes, interesting patterns formed, some sort of ancient symbols that almost no one can read (but some interesting NPCs possibly can). At a night time, it might form its own magical constellations or just something really out of this world. Who\'s to say the crystal can\'t create its own atmosphere with magical clouds etc? Heck, even the loading screen for PS shows something that looks like clouds. Also, why not lit the whole top, so the walls/ceiling isn\'t even visible? I mean, the crystal is extremely powerful! If the walls are visible, the suspension of disbelief and the feeling that the lands inside are vast and many areas are unknown, is ruined.

Next comes the forest... Why, oh why does it have to look like a labyrynth with trees painted on walls that is so painfully obvious? Let\'s see what PS\' forest looks like:

http://img160.imageshack.us/img160/6161/shot061jp.jpg

http://img226.imageshack.us/img226/264/shot093ha.jpg

It looks more like walls than forest. Now, I understand that it might be necessary to force a certain path sometimes but why do it this way? Here\'s a great example from WoW of a forced forest path that really looks like a forest:

http://img202.imageshack.us/img202/269/forest6nl.jpg

http://img226.imageshack.us/img226/6753/forest25bn.jpg

Instead of making it like you\'re walking inside a canyon or a ditch, have the hills and mountains gradually elevated on the sides of a path, with lone trees set here and there. Now, if a person decides to wander off through those trees (if you decide to let them get up the smaller hills on the sides), they will eventually meet steeper and steeper mountains on the sides that they cannot cross. OR you can put these painted trees on the extreme walls. But a person wouldn\'t see them unless they wander off too far left or right from a path.

Another issue I have is the game seems to love extreme drops and elevations in anything from stairs to often-walked paths. Never have I seen such sudden drops or elevations. Sometimes I worry like I might\'ve falled into a pit when I walk in a forest and suddenly the path drops like a mutha. The example is in the first forest screenshot from PS I posted. I wish the drops and raises were much more gradual. Also, some stairs feel too big compared to a character model size. Also, why the area around the Plaza is so steep is also unclear. Why can\'t the city/village be a little more flat with only natural and slight elevations or drops? I guess it might work in a sense that cities in Lord of the Rings movies had such sudden elevations and drops but looked beautiful nontheless. Still, it doesn\'t quite seem the same. Plus, here comes claustrophobia again with everything so tightly bunched up together. Even the tavern seems claustrophobic with you getting stuck on every little chair and table. Games often exaggerate the insides of the building, so people can actually gather and walk there without getting stuck on every object.

Another unattractive thing I found were these blocky elevations on sides of the city entrances:

http://img147.imageshack.us/img147/2167/shot100zk.jpg

Instead, this other (left) side of the same entrace is a little more attractive:

http://img98.imageshack.us/img98/7752/shot118bm.jpg

But instead of raising it so much with a painted wall of forest behind it, raise it a little more gradually, with more of this lone trees (actual tree models) getting more and more dense as you walk further through them (if you decide to do so), eventually ending either with steep uncrossable mountains or that painted wall of forest. It\'s a lot more believable that way. Never have I seen such steep mountain raises and dense uncrossable forests so close to the outside of a city in any game. If it\'s a city, with a lot of merchants coming in and out, it\'d at least have a limited open field outside, maybe with some broken carts laying here and there, a few passages in different directions, with lone tree models getting more and more dense until finally reaching a forest.

Finally, once you get outside into a more open area, this feels a lot less claustrophobic, it finally feels like you have much more freedom and possibly something unknown that lies beyond:

http://img160.imageshack.us/img160/9713/shot126op.jpg

However, here comes another problem... Why is the relief so extreme all over? It almost seems like randomly generated relief like in those old games where you fly a ship that shoots lasers with occasional enemy ship flying at you, and the relief below is all a solid color and very extreme. Where are the occasional flat surfaces, so people can actually see each other running from afar? Right now there are too many sudden drops and the passages are so narrow in them that it yet again manages to feel claustrophobic.

Also, when you try to follow a road/path in that area that leads to various interesting points, at first it seems like it\'s a walked path because of a different texture but occassionally the \"path\" texture will stray off onto a mountain like this:

http://img249.imageshack.us/img249/9016/shot075qe.jpg

Unless people have learned to walk on \"walls\", it seems out of place, especially because the path texture ends on the path, like this:

http://img214.imageshack.us/img214/3828/shot082rm.jpg

Also, notice that sudden and exaggerated elevation visible inside the \"tower\" path again.

Last but not least - where\'s the sense of danger in the game? When a new visitor comes to the site, they see a cozy tavern and a dwarf, that\'s it. Every interesting MMO out there has some kind of struggle or conflict or a sense of danger, be it different factions or some new enemy trying to conquer the innocent folk. Is the real conflict between Laanx and Talad? Or is Vodul the real villain here that will show his \"face\" eventually? I can\'t really hate Laanx or see her as evil, since from the story Talad stupidly used crytal powers without knowing how to properly use it first. But yet, he doesn\'t seem especially evil either. The only one that I see as evil is Vodul because he tried to make Laanx give him special umm \"favors\" (you know what I mean). There doesn\'t seem to be any independant conquering race. They all seem to live together fairly happily and the only goal to reach is to become a hero. But how can you become a hero without a serious danger or villain to defeat? Random ungoverned monsters or even small goverened enemies here and there, just for the sake of being in the game, doesn\'t quite pass up as \"glooming danger\" in the bigger picture/story of the game. Of course, this is only a tech demo, perhaps the real danger will come in the full game.

Also, it\'s kind of odd seeing Laanx being referred to as she in the story at first, and then as a he. Did she change into a \"he\" after the transformation? If Laanx is supposed to be evil now because of the transofrmation, it\'s extremely difficult to see her as such because Talad was dumb enough and careless enough to use the crystal with disregard for her.

I don\'t think it would be so unoriginal to have some kind of evil or a villain in this game. Make the evil and villain themselves original and it\'ll all be good.

As of now though, I can\'t help but feel the game is too claustrophobic, so I keep wishing to get out of that dreadful place as soon as possible, hoping that in the future players can finally get out to the surface and explore new lands.

I really hope I didn\'t offend anyone with these comments. It was not my intention to do so. My concerns actually come from wanting to like this game. I see so many resources being dedicated to this game, so many talented people working on it. None of it should be wasted. So, that is the only reason for my post.

Also, if you feel it belongs on a different forum than this, such as \"Wishlist\", feel free to move it there.

Excuse any typos or errors and thanks! :-)
« Last Edit: July 14, 2005, 11:28:27 pm by Bnm85 »

Robinmagus

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« Reply #1 on: July 14, 2005, 10:56:23 pm »
Thats all fine and dandy, and I agree with most. But comparing this pre alpha and WoW is like comparing WoW and the legendart \"elder scrolls Oblivion\" It just doesnt go like that :P. Compare PS with another free 3d mmorpg, and it will feel much less claustrophobic. Trust me.
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Bnm85

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« Reply #2 on: July 14, 2005, 11:09:43 pm »
I addressed the comparrison issue in my post but it said it was too long, so I had to remove it. I will clarify it now though.

I am NOT comparing a free tech demo to a commercial game like WoW. WoW just happened to be the game I used for sky, forest and the like screenshots and approaches. There are non-MMO games that have it done nicely as well. Never would I compare PS and WoW overall as MMOs, I was strictly taking geometrical and cosmetical approaches in two games, ignoring the rest.

But if you want to compare freebies, the sky in \"Knight Online\", which is a complete free MMORPG feels less limiting, and the game feels much less claustrophobic too. Not to mention without such crazy non-stop relief changes without a \"flat\" surface \"breather\". Here are example screenshots:

http://www.knightonlineworld.com/download/images/pianavillage.jpg

http://www.knightonlineworld.com/download/images/Untitled-1.jpg

http://www.knightonlineworld.com/download/images/Untitled-4.jpg
« Last Edit: July 14, 2005, 11:14:31 pm by Bnm85 »

Zan

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« Reply #3 on: July 14, 2005, 11:17:05 pm »
I have to say I really do not get the claustrophobic aspect of Planeshift\'s sky. Maybe I have bad eyesight or something but it \'s nothing like being in a tiny cave to me.
Perhaps I could advice that you take a trip to the \'end of the world\' and see things from a whole other perspective.

Of course the quality of the sky\'s graphics aren\'t extremely well yet and neither is the lighting but that will improve after more important issues are behind us.
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Bnm85

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« Reply #4 on: July 14, 2005, 11:19:31 pm »
Well, I did take the trip to \"the end of the world\" and even fell from it but it didn\'t quite help the matter... Perhaps the fact that the sky is used as a single texture is hurting it a lot. Meaning that a spot where you\'re supposed to see the walls/ceiling through the light \"beams\" seems to be merged into one texture. Perhaps if the ceiling and walls were extremely detailed and non-pixelated, and if the light was actually passing/falling on top of it through the lighting and not a texture, it might\'ve made a huge difference.

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« Reply #5 on: July 15, 2005, 12:13:16 am »
sky? we have no sky

we have the cavern celing, lit by the azure crystal that pierces through the surface world into the cavern bringing with it the lkight that helps us grow.

yes its not so great right now, this is pre alpha wow is fully finished, also it was made but hundreds possibly thousands of payed developers for a multitude of years.

planeshift simply is not.

Search button comes in handy, reading the history of planeshift would help too.

:)

Ashamn

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« Reply #6 on: July 15, 2005, 12:26:11 am »
Quote
reading the history of planeshift would help too



Quote
Last but not least - where\'s the sense of danger in the game? When a new visitor comes to the site, they see a cozy tavern and a dwarf, that\'s it. Every interesting MMO out there has some kind of struggle or conflict or a sense of danger, be it different factions or some new enemy trying to conquer the innocent folk. Is the real conflict between Laanx and Talad? Or is Vodul the real villain here that will show his \"face\" eventually? I can\'t really hate Laanx or see her as evil, since from the story Talad stupidly used crytal powers without knowing how to properly use it first. But yet, he doesn\'t seem especially evil either. The only one that I see as evil is Vodul because he tried to make Laanx give him special umm \"favors\" (you know what I mean). There doesn\'t seem to be any independant conquering race. They all seem to live together fairly happily and the only goal to reach is to become a hero. But how can you become a hero without a serious danger or villain to defeat? Random ungoverned monsters or even small goverened enemies here and there, just for the sake of being in the game, doesn\'t quite pass up as \"glooming danger\" in the bigger picture/story of the game. Of course, this is only a tech demo, perhaps the real danger will come in the full game.
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dragonfire999

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« Reply #7 on: July 15, 2005, 12:36:18 am »
your \"random evil figures\" will actually be the players. Players that become corrupt Octarch\'s, players who lead evil guilds, players who reak havoc amonst cities. We dont need any NPC bad guy, since we the players will handle it ourselves

Quote
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Seytra

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« Reply #8 on: July 15, 2005, 12:40:22 am »
Heh, I, for one, was pleasantly surprised to have the ceiling actually look like one. I was expecting a blueish noncommitting featureless nothingness as sky. This way, it actually feels like one is inside a cave. I agree that the ceiling looks quite close, and I think with it being so close there is no way rain can form, but it will be exactly like this, if not closer, on the other levels. The first level will AFAICS be the only one with a really big distance from the ceiling. Also, the ceiling cannot be insanely far away, anyway, since we\'re still inside a stalactite which can\'t waste a lot of space to air.

Also, the reason why the cavern walls look so close by is that the maps are so tiny. You will notice that the walls / ceiling are surrounding each map individually, not the entire world, as it theoretically would be. Thus, the arena, which is small in diameter, indeed looks like the inside of a can, even though the surrounding elevations remove a bit of that impression. :)

As for the random path texture: I ddn\'t really regard it as path texture, except in the end and the beginning. To me, it looks more like differences in composition of the floor, like it changing from rock to mud to grass, etc.. The only places that need, and indeed have, \"path\" texture are the ones where every traveller will walk, i.e., the forest entrance and the Korogan passage.

Bnm85

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« Reply #9 on: July 15, 2005, 12:56:47 am »
Quote
Originally posted by Zan
Quote
Originally posted by Zan
Of course the quality of the sky\'s graphics aren\'t extremely well yet and neither is the lighting but that will improve after more important issues are behind us.


In which direction will they improve? Even when I feel certain modifications will make the sky look much better, I fear it may still project that feeling of claustrophobia. It almost seems like the whole game was designed to be claustrophobic, starting from being underground, in a limited space. Besides, I\'m commenting on how it is now and nowhere was it specifically said by the devs that the sky will look vastly different. But I do hope for the best ;)
« Last Edit: July 15, 2005, 01:22:02 am by Bnm85 »

Bnm85

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« Reply #10 on: July 15, 2005, 01:00:33 am »
Quote
Originally posted by Ashamn
Quote
reading the history of planeshift would help too


Well, reading my post fully would help even more. ;)

Bnm85

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« Reply #11 on: July 15, 2005, 01:02:08 am »
Quote
Originally posted by dragonfire999
your \"random evil figures\" will actually be the players. Players that become corrupt Octarch\'s, players who lead evil guilds, players who reak havoc amonst cities. We dont need any NPC bad guy, since we the players will handle it ourselves


I didn\'t mean that the villain and his minion would all be AI controlled. Perhaps an evil villain figure could exist but the players could choose to be part of his minion when creating a character. As it is right now, the \"villains\" seem rather trivial, IMO. But we will see, I guess.

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« Reply #12 on: July 15, 2005, 01:18:34 am »
Quote
Originally posted by Demarthl
Search button comes in handy, reading the history of planeshift would help too.


From the history posted in PS page:

\"Laanx was a tall and perfectly shaped female with long, white hair as silky as the threads of a spider\'s web.\"

and...

\"Vod?l agreed their requests, but in exchange wished for Talad to become one of his servants and Laanx to become one of his lovers. Laanx and Talad accepted the exchange, because Vod?l was a kind master and a pleasant consort.\"

Yes, Vodul is real kind to Laanx there.

To surprise and amaze him, she drew the incommensurable power of the azure crystal as much as she could and, in secret, mimicked the rituals of Vod?l to give life to some creatures reproduced in her image.

So, if it was in secret. How did Talad know she used the crystal? Sure, he discovered her creations but not that she used the crystal. So, he assumed? Even if he did see her use the crystal, did it not cross his mind to ask Vodul even once about the crystal? The beginning of history said that Vodul was guiding both of them. Did he not know that Laanx was vulnerable to some things too? I mean, you don\'t try to make a remote controlled bomb in front of your friend, just because he made one that works, unless you know what you\'re doing. :)

\"She thought that Vod?l had taught Talad the secret of the energy and let him work, because she trusted him and she did not want him to be sad. But she was wrong.\"

Then it starts referring to Laanx as a \"he\":

\"Taking care not to reveal his presence to Talad, Laanx observed Yliakum and saw with disappointment that some people had arrived.\"

Sure, it earlier said that she denied her femininity but it was still a female to begin with. ;)

Yes, Laanx is pissed but does not seem like a villain at all. However, Vodul does.
« Last Edit: July 15, 2005, 01:34:54 am by Bnm85 »

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« Reply #13 on: July 15, 2005, 02:15:42 am »
A very nice post, actually. I applaud you for taking the time to organize and write it out. I personally don\'t think any of the suggestions you made are unreasonable, and they\'re something to keep in mind as the development of the world continues. The entirety of the World-Crystal and its properties are most likely planned out, but not made public by the devs, so as far as I know there may be chances for some really interesting \"sky\"/ceiling effects. There are no major lakes/rivers, as water is plentiful only in the very lowest of the PlaneShift levels. (Which brings a question to mind: how do the inhabitants of the current two cities get their water supply? Some sort of system for storing rainwater? Or are lakes and streams indeed around?)

It will be quite a while before the forests lose their wall-ness and appear more free, and in fact it will be quite a while before many of the things you\'ve suggested are possible. But never really impossible, I think ;)
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Bnm85

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« Reply #14 on: July 15, 2005, 02:25:09 am »
Thanks for not flaming me, heh. And thanks for understanding what I meant. I fully understand that this is just a tech demo, and while many specifics have not been given (such as on the sky/crystal), I did see mention of the game looking much better in the future. These suggestions are only how I personally feel about things right now, and to keep in mind during the development. After all, the demo is released publically, and I\'m sure the devs want and appreciate constructive criticism. I believe my post was constructive enough. :)