could someone explain

[Cha0s]

I\'ve been trying to avoid this, but my nature seems to have pulled me in... So, here I go.

I want to reiterate: there is no role-play in /tells unless there is a good out-of-character reason for it. By default, all tells are OOC. Whenever I role-play in tells (i.e. let\'s say I activate a magic stone that allows me to talk to someone with the companion stone) I specify before hand OOC in the tell and then put all of my IC tells in quotes. Other than this sort of justified tell use, role-playing in tells does not exist.

It seems to me that what you\'re really doing is power-leveling and chatting with some people to pass the time between monster-spawns and killing.
When I read this:

Originally posted by Verrliit
...I often stand for hours at a time, mechanically bashing an NPC, while I frantically juggle Tells...

I think, \"Gee, mechanically bashing an NPC for hours while trying to role-play in tells... why doesn\'t Verrliit go talk to these people in person if she wants role-play? Oh, she\'s too busy killing the NPC. But if she wants to role-play and she has hours why doesn\'t she go talk to the people? Well, killing the NPC must be more important.\"

In my eyes, once killing the NPC is more important than going to talk to the people you want to role-play with, the hours spent killing the NPC are hours spent power-leveling. If you\'re off on an adventure with a friend or even by yourself off killing things in-character, that\'s fine, as long as you act in-character in town when you go to sell your goods and what-not. But when you\'re role-playing in tells, that\'s a problem. You clearly have people to role-play with and you have reason for role-playing with them, so go do it.

If you\'re going to talk to someone in character, do it in person, out loud. Not even in group chat. Group chat should be consider out of character as well, except in rare circumstances (if everyone has some magic long-distance communication spell, for instance).


Basic summary for everyone who skipped the long paragraphs above: role-playing in tells while killing monsters seems a lot like power-leveling to me. Tells can be used for role-play in limited circumstances, but it\'s rare. For the most part, if you\'re going to role-play, do it in person.

[Verrliit]

Counter-Summary for those who should have read the long paragraphs above, the first time.


1. Two of the top three most active players in all of PS, posted questions, experiences, observations and opinions.

2. We were told that the only thing that can be called roleplay, is something that might barely support interactions between six very polite players in the same room, provided there is only one topic, and no one outside is interested in talking to them.

3. We were also marginalized with the ficticious label of Power Leveler, and told we should be quiet, for as such we could have no idea what we were talking about.


Today I accepted an oath of fealty, from a classical chivalric Knght.  We had never met until last night, when he asked to enter my service, based solely upon my reputation.

I call that roleplay that was the result of prior roleplay, and in what manner it was done, I call that irrelevant.


I am the Dark Lady, Verrliit.

What my detractors are, I shall leave unspoken.

[Pip]

Originally posted by Karyuu

You don\'t have to lie, better to say nothing at all, but I guess that is hard for you since you have 1677 posts since May 2004.

Then what was this all about?

It was about this:

Originally posted by Seytra
How am I supposed to make myself clear when I am expected to lie about what I think of what others do, just to please them?
Yes, I could have said \"Well your way to RP is one way, but I think mine is better suited for an MMORPG\". But that\'d have been a lie. With that lie, I would send the message \"It\'s not necessary to change your style\". And that message is the exact opposite of what I intend to say.

I said you needed to read the quote but it must be too much trouble.

[Karyuu]

You quoted Seytra\'s entire post, so it was a bit hard to pinpoint the exact statement you were referring to. I honestly apologize for not seeing it the first time. However, my reply to you had no hostility whatsoever, while yours tend to possess it rather frequently as of late. If I may make a formal request - please try to post without any condescending tones :)

[Pip]

I am sorry, you are right, my mood over the last few days has not been good. I will moderate my tone, I am not normally hostile but I really think there is room for everyone in this game and just because some people have a different idea of what roleplay is doen\'t mean you can make them feel unwelcome.

I understand that certain ways of playing are not proper roleplay but for some; sticking to a set of rules is stifling and taking it all too seriously. There is somewhere in the forum a roleplaying guide, why not just pop in a link to that and let players take from it what they like, instead of telling people that they don\'t know how to roleplay and shouldn\'t be in the game.

People are here and stay because they like it and if they just wanted to powerlevel they wouldn\'t like it.

[Seytra]

Originally posted by Verrliit
1. Two of the top three most active players in all of PS, posted questions, experiences, observations and opinions.

Ah yes, quoting  statistics again? Well, I have told you already that they mean absolutely nothing. Is someone who has less time to spend in PS necessarily less informed than you are? Does online time equal quality or even quantity of RP? Surely not. But obviously you have nothing except these figures to base your claim of superiority on, since otherwise you would not have to resort to that. :tdown:
Feel free to think that numbers grant respect. r.guppy knows they don\'t ( \"my point on my real life was to be blunt respect is one from others not go with tittle.\" ), and so do I.

There have been others (idlers, blatant PLs, all sorts of people) ranking high on that list before you, and others will come after you. Feel free to cherish these numbers as long as they last, but know that they don\'t make me respect you any more than without them.

Originally posted by Verrliit
2. We were told that the only thing that can be called roleplay, is something that might barely support interactions between six very polite players in the same room, provided there is only one topic, and no one outside is interested in talking to them.

And you think that is RP? What you are describing looks like you are not even engaged in the same situation with the people you /tell! Seriously, has it ever happened to you IRL that you were in the mall with a friend, at home with your neighbors, at school with a classmate, on a trip to a foreigh country with a teacher and at church talking to the priest at the very same instance of time? Because that is precisely what you are \"Roleplaying\". So unless your char is a multidimensional, time travelling being, there is no way that you are RPing.
If you are in a place, then that place and the people who are in that place are the situation your char is in, and nothing else (though obviously non RPers and trolls must be ignored IC).
And if the others happen to not be in that place, then they aren\'t there for your char to interact with. Plain and simple.
I try to maintain a clear temporal sequence in my RP, and it works out reasonably well. With your approach, it would be pure chaos, where either no RP can ever influence another, or they all do randomly, depending on who /tells first. This breaks realism quite badly, and also removes a level of depth from the possible RP. Yes, it can be a problem if you wish to RP with several people but the RP\'s cannot be joined for whatver reasons. However, you can\'t just use /tell to do both simultaneously. If anything, it makes you unreliable for the other players you are /tell-\"RP\"ing, because they can never rely on you correctly assigning memories to your char. So apart from excluding everyone from your RP, this is, at least when the RPs would realistically overlap occasionally, detrimental to other\'s RP. Not to mention that it breaks continuity and consistency.

Originally posted by Verrliit
and in what manner it was done, I call that irrelevant.

I call that highly relevant. The end does not justify the means.

Originally posted by Pip
You may be right about the strict rules for roleplay but you don\'t have to ram it down everyone\'s throats. You don\'t have to lie, better to say nothing at all, but I guess that is hard for you since you have 1677 posts since May 2004.

Yes, it is hard for me. In fact, I blatantly refuse to stay silent when I clearly disagree with something that is obviously wrong. Though I wonder why you pull in my postcount and forum age here. Wouldn\'t that, by the logic used by Verrliit, automatically make me right in all I say, since it\'s so obviously higher than yours or hers? :rolleyes:

Originally posted by Pip
At the end of the day this is just a game, why is it so important that everyone plays the same way? We play to enjoy ourselves and if we are knocked because our play does not match up to another\'s ideals then that just spoils our enjoyment. Do we get in the way of your fun??

Obviously what makes a game isn\'t clear: that everyone plays by the same rules. I seriously wonder why this simple fact so often is overlooked when it comes to MMORPGs. Take the rules from any game, like chess, and \"let everyone play the way they enjoy it most\" and what do you get? Chaos in which almost noone ends up having fun. Face it, without rules, there can never be any game. So yes, you do get in my way of fun in PS, because you aren\'t playing by the rules and thus exclude me (potentially) from RPing with you (either because I\'d have to break the rules to engage in RP with you, or cannot notice there is an opportunity to RP with you), possibly even destroying my RP due to inconsistencies and unresolvable time conflicts in your multi-RP. Yes, your argument now will be \"just stay away from us\". And this is precisely what I will do, but quite obviously my RP will be lessened by that choice (though lessened less than the damage that it would take when I\'d engage in your way of \"RP\".), and possibly yours as well.
So no, I do not accept you doing this \"your\" way, because your way is detrimental to PS as a whole. The only way you get to RP is because others do it the right way, since otherwise they\'d be /telling each other and never speak to you, nor hear of you at all.

[grayFalcon]

Seytra, I truly think that you\'re going a bit overboard on this one.

Yes, I agree with you that the only \"real\" RP is when it\'s done in person, I also only use /tells ooc or for whispering. But you can\'t say that other people doing it differently are damaging your gaming experience. As you mentioned yourself, this is something that you\'ll rather not notice. Further, your argument that this is a loss to you because you won\'t be able to engage in RP with these people. Well, here\'s the point: It\'s not a real loss to you.

Imagine people who only see this game as a bit of monster-slashing fun after a hard day at work. Imagine people who just log in for half an hour, because they don\'t have more time (you can\'t RP in that case). Imagine people who, for whatever reason, don\'t want to RP at all or with you specifically. These people exist, and there\'s lots of them. And there always will be, realistically: look at any other MMORPG with an average of more than 15 players online.

Now, my point is: these players can hardly be said to be damaging your RP. If you have had any experience with MMORPGs at all, you must have learned to ignore them. They can\'t be more damaging to your RP than people who aren\'t there at all (or is everybody else damaging your RP by plainly not being logged on and thus deprieving you of the possibility to RP with them?). And for you, seeing it from the outside, the difference between these people and people who \"/tell-RP\" is... well, NIL.

By the way, imagine a \"real\" fantasy world with lots of people going after their business. And now imagine how much attention you\'d get from the average person living there. A grunt maybe, if you\'re especially annoying, but most likely none at all. The people interacting with you (\"RPing\") would be a few chosen friends, seen against a background of lots of people you don\'t know and who ignore you - and who you ignore.

So, I even dare say that lots of people who don\'t RP with you just increase the quality your RP can reach by simulating that indifferent background population that, technically, you could talk to and interact (RP) with, but who you will realistically never have any more contact with than the occasional \"Pardon, you happen to know where xxx is? No? Well, thanks anyway\".

And, last thing, my experience is that RPing in an empty world with just the people I know and play with regularily is just as bad as RPing in a world where you can\'t have a second of peace to RP with your friend because everybody tries to interact with you. The background hustle of people  you don\'t know going about their business (whatever that business is - may it be their own RP, /tell-RP or powerlevelling - you don\'t know) is... well, very nice.


And for those who didn\'t want to read all of this: I think that having a lot of people online who don\'t RP with you and a group of people you do RP with is the best solution - and there it doesn\'t matter if these other people /tell-RP or do something else while they\'re not interacting with you.

[Karyuu]

Originally posted by grayFalcon
Imagine people who only see this game as a bit of monster-slashing fun after a hard day at work. Imagine people who just log in for half an hour, because they don\'t have more time (you can\'t RP in that case). Imagine people who, for whatever reason, don\'t want to RP at all or with you specifically. These people exist, and there\'s lots of them. And there always will be, realistically: look at any other MMORPG with an average of more than 15 players online.

Now imagine a game that isn\'t meant for such people, will not  cater to such people, and has a strong community who have no love, fondness, and very little tolerance for such people. This is PlaneShift :| No matter how many times this has been said, and sadly no matter how many times this came off as \"snobbish,\" \"closed-minded,\" or \"wrong,\" this still stands: if anyone doesn\'t like the way things work here, particularly the need for RP and not PL, they are free to leave, and will most likely be asked to.

[stfrn]

I couldn\'t agree with Karyuu more. PlaneShift is all about giving you options for how you can roleplay, however, that does not mean that you should just stick to the first thing that works for you. To an extent, playing planeshift should be a learning expernce in how people all around the world view roleplaying. What your stats are, is in no way comparable to the people you meet. You are free to try to increase them, but do not let the persuite of numbers distract you from others.

[r.guppy]

Finally the voice of reason i wondered how long it would be before one showed up, thank you.

 KEY WORDS learning expernce in how people all around the world view roleplaying.

[Easton]

why is this in the server discussion thread?

Easton Ghent

[Esserfin]

Originally posted by Karyuu Now imagine a game that isn\'t meant for such people, will not  cater to such people, and has a strong community who have no love, fondness, and very little tolerance for such people. This is PlaneShift :| No matter how many times this has been said, and sadly no matter how many times this came off as \"snobbish,\" \"closed-minded,\" or \"wrong,\" this still stands: if anyone doesn\'t like the way things work here, particularly the need for RP and not PL, they are free to leave, and will most likely be asked to.

May i ask if this kind of speaking is official or personal?
Because i\'ve never heard words worst than this before.... and in a so-called internet community too
Do you really think that i must feel not enough \'good\' for you (or for PS) because english is not my natural language (so RP is a little hard for me in the official PS language), because no one tried to explain me online (i\'m not a so called forum player) how can i RP in a good way and because the PS team (if is an official post) thinks that i\'m \'useless\' now that all the mayor bug are fixed?
Hope you are kidding because i don\'t want to have nothing to do with people like you......
So please vue that you are a \'Community moderator\' please let me know if your words are the official PS kind of thinking.

P.S. to all: sorry for my bad english, i do my best to be understood (and to understand other people too)

[Karyuu]

My last post was from an official stand taken by the PlaneShift development team. There are many internet communities out here - and their being on the internet alone doesn\'t mean that anyone with an internet connection is immediately welcome. Communities all have rules and some sense of order, by definition, and the rules of PlaneShift protect roleplay first and foremost above anything else, and aim to make any other use of the game hardly worth it, such as powerleveling.

Sadly and unfixably, PlaneShift is an English game and will always remain so. Translations of the Player Guide and in-game menus are welcome, but English is still the official and only allowed language in public chat. You seem to have a decent hold on it, however, and no one will make fun of you or ignore you if you have difficulties speaking sometimes. There are many here who are like that :) But the English-only in public in-game chat is a very strictly enforced rule, and has always been.

You, and anyone else who wishes to roleplay, are not useless. And a great many bugs aren\'t fixed yet, but players often have very little to do with fixing :)

If you want to have nothing to do with me, or people like me, then you won\'t like PlaneShift\'s development team much... For they work on the game for it to have one central purpose - open fantasy roleplay, not mindless monster slaughter and stat training.

@Easten: I hope someone will split this topic soon, or at least move it elsewhere. It indeed does not belong here.

[LigH]

Just a last thought from me:

If you find someone does a poor job following your oh-so-tight rules about how-to-roleplay-correctly, please consider: There are people who are not yet used to roleplaying games. For me, e.g., PlaneShift is my first MMORPG ever (mainly because it\'s free). Before approaching this kind of game, I even had only rare experience with single-user RPGs, where I could expect a defined plot and a remarkable advantage by training my skills (e.g. \"Gothic\").


A bad teacher tells you just that you are wrong.

A good teacher tells you how to do it better.


Please, don\'t make me feel unwelcome, just because I don\'t know all the details of rules about roleplaying. I want to learn - and I want you to teach me. But please, not by throwing a heap of laws on me and leaving me there...

In the one month being a member here, I learned a lot about roleplaying. Sometimes I\'m a bit helpless (especially when a character does not want to tell more about his concerns than \"...\"; or maybe due to a limited vocabulary). But sometimes, I am even successful in introducing a common phrase for a technical workaround (e.g. \"wipe eyes\" for unsticking to solve graphic glitches) or similar things. These are the little pieces I enjoy.


So far, just my thoughts. Please don\'t take them personal. But try to take them on.

[Karyuu]

These are not my rules :) They are the rules of the development team and community as a whole. Please consider this too.

I am not saying at all that you can\'t learn to roleplay or that you shouldn\'t be allowed to, or that you should come in here with all the necessary knowledge already under your belt. To expect that would be pure folly. My last couple of posts simply addressed the purpose of PlaneShift - roleplay as opposed to... well, a lack of it, or a refusal to participate in it, as some have either hinted at or bluntly stated.

There are wonderful teachers in this community, many of whom have taught me as well as those who came before and after. It would be silly of me to claim some sort of superiority. But there are still \"correct\" ways to go about doing things in PlaneShift, and it\'s better to learn about them in some form and try to adapt than learn and ignore.

I sincerely apologize if any of my previous posts came off as arrogant or harsh - it wasn\'t my intention at all. But while PlaneShift is a free game, it is still meant to cater to a certain type of crowd, not everyone in the world :) Again, doesn\'t mean you can\'t learn.