Author Topic: The Illarion Fallacy  (Read 2429 times)

hereticalfaction

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The Illarion Fallacy
« on: August 29, 2005, 12:09:05 pm »
In this Thread:

http://planeshift.oodlz.com/wbboard/thread.php?threadid=18446&boardid=11&styleid=3&sid=937bdfeee3ec35fec0a6c5f90490fed8

I see outlined a way of thinking which could be dangerous to the long term well being of PS. I think of it as the \"Illarion Fallacy\" (No offence intended to anyone who has played or been involved in the development of the Illarion project). It goes like this:

1) Our game is being built for roleplaying, and not for powergaming, therefor the engine must empower the former and hamper the latter. (good mission, I highly approve)

2) Powergamers love to optimise their skills/ attributes/ equipment in order to gain advantage, while Roleplayers are sainted creatures who are fully satisfied when they can just stand around chatting in-charachter. Anyone who expresses serious interest in training or aquiring wealth is suspect of being a PG. (simplistic)

3) When stats are hidden, unquantified, or difficult to acquire, PGers lose interest. Meanwhile, roleplayers care not for stats or loot and will gladly play a \"realistic\" charachter- One who constantly strives at only RP-justifiable tasks while rarely recieving a noticeable reward for their effort. (dubious)

4) There exists a hydraulic relationship betwees RPers and PGers: RPers are sickened by the decadent play of PGers and will eventually stay away from a game where people powergame. Likewise, the gaming purity and virtue of the RPers deeply shames those nefarious PGers, so if we can just keep everyone standing in circles typing into \"Ye Olde In-Charachter Chat Window\", they will eventually go away.

5) The proper response of the development team to any percieved trend of increased PG is to alter the game so that: a] Stats are harder to improve/ impossible to measure, b] There are ample opportunities for players to report on incidents of PGing and lots of punishments and bans get handed out, c] Newbies whose RP-committment is unproven have a long uphill battle to prove themselves before they get to play with cool stuff like magic.

6) Since the war against the darkness of PG is eternal, consider 1-6 to be an infinite loop which we call \"development\", the ultimate result of which will be a game where nobody\'s charachter ever improves, most people have been excluded or face constant harassment as bad members of the community, and new players rarely maintain interest in the game for long.


hereticalfaction

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« Reply #1 on: August 29, 2005, 12:10:23 pm »
Some results of this fallacy in Illarion:

- Skills are freakishly hard to acquire. Skill is gained very slowly even if you power-train them. Further, players get harrassed who repeatedly engage in training activities.

- Powergamers still powergame: The motivation of the worst PGer is to \"break\" the system, so the harder the nut is to crack, the more satisfying; and who cares if a pig-killing macro runs for ten hours or ten thousand?

- Game reality is broken, as players RP charachters in ways that the game does not in fact support: My charachter concept is that of a blacksmith, but after many months of playing him, his horseshoes still usually come out looking like Mobius strips.

- Because few interesting activities are persistent in the game world (Illarion relies heavily on GM-mediated one-time \"quest\" events) the game is only satisfying when the server is relatively packed. Players who log on and find no other player online rarely stick around, making it unlikely that the next player to log on will stay. In the end, the game develops a circadian rhythm whereby it is actively played only during a few hours a day when players learn they can depend on the presence of other players. All activity drifts gradually towards a tighter and tighter time window. Potential players whose timezone/ RL schedule bars them from playing during this period are effectively excluded from play.

My suggestions to avoid these pitfalls:

Skills and charachter development:
Have all charachters start out equal from char gen. This way, one uses the char gen to establish a backstory they wish to roleplay without concern about advantage or disadvantage.

Use a tiered system of skills. Everyone can first maximise all the general skills, for example:  Acrobatics, Roguery, Close fighting, Armor & Defence, Distance fighting, Language & Scholarship, Magic, Crafting, mining & gathering. Just as in life I can hum a song, weave a crude basket, run from a burning building, chop down a tree, and punch someone in the nose with none of these abillities requiring that I sacrifice in other areas. In the second tier, a player must choose say three of the above to further specialise in, but can aquire intermediate skill in all of those three tiers\' sub-skills. Sub-skills being like Axe, sword, pole-weapon, unarmed, chain weapon, etc. under the class of close fighting. On the third tier, A player must chose one of his three focus areas to be his \"profession\". He can gain \"advanced\" skill in one sub skill of his other two areas of focus, and in all subskills of his profession area.
Final tiers will narrow the subskills of ones profession down so that amongst \"crafters\" known as \"smiths\", a weaponsmith (who can make damn fine nails and horseshoes) is distinguishable from a armorsmith (who can also make damn fine nails and horseshoes as well as posessing the mystical abillities to prune the hedges, dig a small hole, walk and chew gum, etc.). In this way, you avoid the \"charachter class\" silliness where every wizard is a 90lb weakling, and every fighting man is an illiterate dunce.

Make skills EASY to acquire. An average player should be able to max out his skill tree in say six months of regular play. Everyone will quickly become good at something, nobody good at everything. The ease limits of advancement will quickly bore the \"killin \'n Skillin\' \" players, and good RP will be empowered. You see, If I am a skilled weaponsmith, and you are a world class swordsman, then we will allways have a potential interaction to RP. Whereas, if I am a middle-rank guy who can sorta get by while you are an ancient master of everything under the sun who has been playing for years and can run circles around me in every way, you have no reason to give me the time of day.

Game enviornment:
Of course, it may seem that the fun will go out of the game if every charachter is maxed out in his first few months. This is why it is important to have a few Illarion-style GM-moderated unique events every week. Unique items/ skills/ and advantages would be the rewards. Thus, there will be a hundred charachters who are master weaponsmiths, all of whom can craft a kick-ass battle axe, but only one of whom has learned the ancient secret of constructing an \"obsidian lance of banishment\".

Mobs and quests should be inserted into the persistent world which are beyond the abillities of any one charachter to encourage teamwork, perhapse requiring a variety of complementary skill-sets.

Embrace any feature which improves guild play, dueling, trade and other RP-intensive activities

Neryam

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« Reply #2 on: August 29, 2005, 02:24:09 pm »
I like this.. a LOT.  :D  We definitely do now want to go into the loop of your first post..

And this would tie in with that thing about skill specialization too..

I especially like that thing about the hundred weaponsmiths.. Only bummer is if that player quits for a while, others will greif that the skill is being wasted.. I guess in that case the GMs can just make a few more events to get those skills.. but we have to keep a steady flow of new people, otherwise in the end everybody will be able to craft some uberthings.

But yeah.. and this would REALLY encourage player economy too.
« Last Edit: August 29, 2005, 02:26:58 pm by Neryam »
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odd2k

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« Reply #3 on: August 29, 2005, 02:57:14 pm »
Good post. I strongly agree with the idea of the tier system. Because thats more or less what real life is like. I also think that skills should be stripped from character creation. Start out as a newbie. Character stats should still be generated in char creation of course (and STAY that way, I really dont like the current system where you can \"buy\" stats until they are all maxed out. A character\'s stats are his very being, and are not easy to change. You don\'t go up to Bob the trainer and buy some strenth. Realism goes out the window because of that.

And of course, even if this is a roleplaying-dense game, it does not mean the other parts of the game should be removed or less focused on. If you want to roleplay that bad, go do it in an IRC channel.

hereticalfaction

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« Reply #4 on: August 29, 2005, 07:51:03 pm »
Another thing occurred to me after posting:

When it takes many years to get a charachter to the point that other charachters value him for his abillities, A player is likely to feel deeply attached to just the one character. This does not sound like a bad idea at first, but bear with me.

When my charachter has developed the abillity to massacre tough mobs with a sword, he has an unfair advantage in buying new unrelated skills like magic or crafting. Eventually this charachter becomes an all-around supercharachter, and as a player I am even less likely to put the one charachter away and start a new unique one... Instead, whatever I feel like doing in game, be it good or evil, prosocial or antisocial, I do it with the one charachter. Instead of playing the ROLE of the charachter I have developed, the charachter\'s personality and prefferrences become indistinguishable from my own as a player.

If, on the other hand, it is relatively easy for me to establish a new charachter in the game as a competent member of the community, I am more likely to produce specialised charachters with specialised personalities and interests, and play each as a unique individual.

hereticalfaction

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« Reply #5 on: August 29, 2005, 07:57:04 pm »
Quote
Originally posted by Neryam
we have to keep a steady flow of new people, otherwise in the end everybody will be able to craft some uberthings.

But yeah.. and this would REALLY encourage player economy too.


So what if everyone can craft a few uber-things? So long as no one can craft them all, you will still have an economy. Uberthings should require rare materials which only expert gatherers or hunters can supply, and occasionally need repair by an expert crafter (though not necessarily the guy who has the monopoly on new construction).

I think that letting everyone have access to high levels of competence in some field, people will be more invested in the game and community.

Ivniciix

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« Reply #6 on: August 30, 2005, 12:46:21 am »
I\'ve heard this conundrum refered to as the \"Tank-Mage\" syndrome. Any game that enables a player to ultimately master everything, can\'t be one that supports RP. By definition, this game must support a \"Role\" for players which encompasses both their fighting and trade skills. The very word, role, implies plurality and diversification. Otherwise the game is simply a series of check-off boxes until you get them all filled...a monologue pursued by everyone.

A role must be developed by making choices and having options which are mutually exclusive of other choices and options. Merely creating a back-story for your character which is in no way tied to in-game mechanicsdoes not reinforce roleplaying.

This concept extends to quests. The more content there is that players simply can\'t solo and that require a mix of player talents to complete, the more players will be encouraged and valued for their diversity. Ideally skills like pick-lock ought to be acheivable via two seperate paths (a magic unlock in one school) so as not to force quest X to always require that a player on one, narrow path be included.

In another thread about weapon stats, there was some discussion about hidden numbers. I do believe hidden numbers provide some desirable mystery to the game while all-exposed numbers simply create an arms-race and a greedy marketplace. The controversy revolves around what these hidden numbers control and whether they are discoverable. In that other thread, a suggestion was made that sliders by used to alter how one used a weapon-for defense or attack and even to do different \"moves or stances-and that the performance of a particular weapon was tied to it\'s hidden number interaction with the players stats, probably Str, Agi & Sta although an enchanted weapon could certainly also be affected by the players mental stats as well.

While I don\'t like the idea of in-game, real time sliders to alter weapon usage, I do see where a set of preset hotkeys, each tied to an underlying, player  adjustable  matrix or graph, could be the basis for discovering whether a particular weapon was better suited to a particular player could be valuable. Additionally, once a player had a high enough skill in relation to the \"rank\" of a particular weapon, players could choose to divine, know, analyze or otherwise unlock the underlying numbers but only at the cost of making the weapon non-saleable to other players. A good player will have gained useful information from how a particular weapon performed against his presets and be better able to judge which weapons to keep and \"know\" in the future and which to sell.

While these weapon comments may seem a bit astray from this thread, I believe they back up the need for players not to have all the same stats and to be able to improve them, though not all of them on a single character. Someone posted in this thread that in real life you can\'t just go to a trainer and improve your strength. Of course that isn\'t true at all or where would all the gyms be today?

What one can\'t improve in real life, is their \"statistics\" beyond some absolute limit. This limit varies from person to person but, in the game these two numbers, your current ability and your potential ability, are not so directly tied....as yet. Effectively, your stat is the same as your potential. It\'s only the items you choose to use that may convert that potential in to greater effect or damage. Therefore, without a mechanism in-game to raise ones stats, the whole \"arms-race, higher-numbers\" mind-set is reinforced as it is the only way to \"get better\".

Ultima online had trainers where you could go to raise your weapon skills by repeatedly killing dummies. Other games simply increase your stats as you level. They do this largely to segregate players from items by quality or \"numbers\". In a more pure RP environment, a player ought to be able to have a very high quality weapon IF he\'s willing to put in the training time to be able to wield it and sustain the level of ability required to use it. Granted, this might make for a very narrow character but, with-in certain bounds, it ought to be an option available to a player if they are willing to sacrifice being better rounded. I see no reason why, upon acquiring by quest or hunt, some superior weapon that a player might not become consumed with the desire to master it...perhaps even compelled to in the case of an enchanted weapon.

As for crafting, I\'d have thought it was obvious that no one could possilby attain complete mastery of more that two skills in their lifetime. Ideally, the mastery of these two skills opens up the ability to craft very unique and valuable items by combining aspects of both skils sets. Of course, it\'s not truly obvious but in order for a game to maintain the value of as wide a possible number of crafers, at all levels, players ought not be able to master every trade skill.

Star Wars Galaxies had/has what at first glance looks like a good and complete crafting system. Unfortunately, it didn\'t turn out that way. Firstly, players were forced to craft through paths they had no interest in in order to reach ones they cared about. This had two effects, 1) the Market was flooded with cheap goods because they were being over produced and 2) raw materials became rare and expensive as too many players competed for them. SWG also had a system of quality attached to the underlying raw  materials. In principal, this meant that players who sought out and figured out the best combination for making a particular pattern could make ones with superior stats....even for the lowest noob item. However the complete over abundance of every item due to over manufacture lowerd prices so much that the \"craftsman\" ideal was too expensive to pursue until higher levels.

Additionally, SWG failed to build in enough cross-dependancy between trade skills to create value for much of what a player was required or allowed to make in order to improve their skill. In a good economy, lower skilled players ought to be the source of components for higher skilled ones as well as being neccesary to provide components need in other skills. The argument against this was that turning off lower level items as a player raised his skill might create a \"bottleneck\" for higher players to advance. For me, it simply creates a valid reason to form a diversely skilled guild. If a bottleneck was to be avoided, it should have been relieved by making the same items available from NPC vendors but at higher prices than a player would need to charge for them. Soak the rich is always a viable game option ! :)

To sum up this long post, there are positive options available to reinforce RP not just negative ones. Creating value in those roles and protecting it is the key. Unrestrained, \"free market\" captialism may or may not be an ideal economic system but it is in no way a useful tool for creating \"moral\" values. In the same way, a game that allows the creation of conglomerated, widely diversified player-characters may appeal to the power gamer but it does nothing to build community and encourage diversity which is the essence of RP.

hereticalfaction

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« Reply #7 on: August 30, 2005, 10:00:11 am »
Always remember that nobody enjoys playing weak or unskilled charachters. Whatever you do with the skill sets, make sure that distinguishing ones charachter in some area should be an achievable goal for anyone who wishes to play for a period of time.

Quietus_Silivren

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« Reply #8 on: September 01, 2005, 09:31:21 pm »
It is a fallacy to think that mastering one skill should make it any harder to master another. Truely mastering any should (and I believe, will) take an absurd ammount of time, anyway, and mastering more than one would naturally take a proportionally greater ammount of time, no more (this is an important issue I will get into later). In fact, the practice of some skills should augment that of others, realistically. For example, a weaponsmith who is also a swordsman would more quickly learn what qualities are desirable in a sword, and what techniques will produce those qualities. D&D has come to reflect this through a \"synergy bonus,\" whereby, if you have a certain number of ranks in a given skill, it will suppliment your performance with another skill by adding a predetermined bonus to each use of it.

It is also unreasonable to say that \"roleplaying\" implies a lack of diversity within the individual, to be replaced by diversification within a group of specialized individuals. \"Over-specialize, and you breed in weakness.\" Not everyone\'s life goal is to be the absolute best at one thing and one thing only. And for those who don\'t, it is only natural that they will master their more diverse interests, eventually, although their progress in any one area will likely be much slower than that of a more dedicated individual. This is already the case in PS. Roleplaying does not mean you are forced to rely on others for everything that is not your \"specialty.\" I do, however, agree with the idea of \"hidden numbers.\" I should not be able to pick up a weapon and give you a number or two to explain how effective it will be in battle. Oh, and I would expect high-quality weapons to be easier to wield, not more difficult. A weapon quite different (and perhaps simply better by virtue of the physics behind it) from others encountered would be more difficult to wield. D&D reflects this with the inclusion of \"exotic weapons,\" into which a character must put special effort, if (s)he wishes to wield them effectively. Now, of course, D&D has a class system that allows the fighter to more readily gain that skill, but in PS, all that would require is for such a combat-minded individual to spend progression points and tria on training in that skill (although unique types of weapons requiring special skill do not exist). Still, obviously, a player who spends a majority of his/her progression points on magic skills will be unable to put so much into fighting.

Thus, the possibility for specialization exists in Planeshift already, but is not forced, nor should it be. However, the training system currently in place, meant to discourage power-leveling, in fact encourages mastering more than one skill, because this more quickly increases a character\'s overall power! Training a single skill as quickly as possible takes a certain ammount of time for each rank, but training two, three, or more skills as quickly as possible barely takes any more time, if it does at all. Specializing will not make you better at a skill than someone more diverse, as the system works now. This, I think, is the biggest problem with Planeshift\'s theory of anti-powergaming. The hassle of returning to a trainer at each skill rank means that the best way to improve your skills is to do it all in one fell swoop, and return to all trainers at once, not to each individually as the skill is completed.

My solution? I believe that if skills were not dependant on trainers at all (with the exception of more specialized and technical skills like crafting), then those that were most valuable to each individual, and most used by them, would be the ones in which they were most skilled. It certainly is the logical outcome of removing the barrier and letting things progress naturally. The more practiced swordsman (accounting for talent, of course) would be the most skilled. But hey, this game isn\'t my project, and I can\'t dictate the way that it is run. Just my two tria.
« Last Edit: September 01, 2005, 09:32:28 pm by Quietus_Silivren »

Seytra

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« Reply #9 on: September 01, 2005, 10:53:22 pm »
I find myself agreeing with Quietus_Silivren, save the final paragraph about trainers. For me, this system works only partially the way you describe, because PP are very hard to come by, and essentially swapped relevance with tria.
Due to that, the return to the trainer is less of a hassle than actually getting the required PP to increaso one skill. Therefore, more often than not, I go to a trainer to train one skill only.
However, because it is easier to gain overall power by concurrently increasing multiple skills (i.e., weapon and armor) instead of pushing one first and then the other, the effect is that I\'m at about the same level in all skills I care about.
However, this isn\'t really that bad, since realistically one would also train both a weapon skill and armor concurrently, so it actually is realistic.

As for the char creation affecting stats and skills: this is for two reasons:
1) to avoid use of numbers in the char creation and
2) to give a base to people who have no history planned

This becomes most evident when looking at the \"Crystal Eclipse\" option. Realistically, it would be impossible to give every player that choice, because with a reasonably large player base one would end up with a crystal eclipse every day, which clearly isn\'t the case.

I\'m not sure about point 1, because I like to have precise control, but point 2 is definitely a good thing.
And I really like the idea that was suggested about the way a player uses a weapon being possible to fine-tune, as well as the hiding of the weapon stats while remaining discoverable.

zanzibar

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« Reply #10 on: September 02, 2005, 04:12:58 am »
Better yet:  Why not allow powergaming?  Learn to live with it?  Learn to live with the people who choose to do it?  Even if it\'s two worlds living side by side but seperate, Power Gaming doesn\'t interfere with Role Playing any more than Role Playing interferes with Power Gaming.


It isn\'t realistic to have a world where everyone is equal in their skill with swords, or where everyone is equally nimble, etc.  It isn\'t realistic to have a world without powerful warriors, unless you consider typing \"/me effortessly deflects his attack\" to count.
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Seytra

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« Reply #11 on: September 02, 2005, 04:26:29 am »
Quote
Originally posted by zanzibar
Better yet:  Why not allow powergaming?  Learn to live with it?  Learn to live with the people who choose to do it?  Even if it\'s two worlds living side by side but seperate, Power Gaming doesn\'t interfere with Role Playing any more than Role Playing interferes with Power Gaming.

It does, by the PvP it creates, even if it\'s only PL vs. PL, it still 1) clogs up the chat window and 2) shows in the screen. PLs don\'t care for where they battle, and thus often disrupt the atmosphere. Likewise, they will keep challenging RPers, creating spam that way, even when auto decline is on.
Also, once there is a decent economy, they will be responsible for flooding it with high powered items, destroying the balance.
Last but not least, they waste bandwidth, both for the server as well as for the clients, and also processing power. Since they are not wanted here, this is a waste.
Quote
Originally posted by zanzibar
It isn\'t realistic to have a world where everyone is equal in their skill with swords, or where everyone is equally nimble, etc.  It isn\'t realistic to have a world without powerful warriors, unless you consider typing \"/me effortessly deflects his attack\" to count.

No, it itn\'t. However, it is completely obvious that RPers will also become strong warriors. They will simply not have maxed stats within a week or two. Also, the PL as powerful warrior doesn\'t even show up IC-ly. They are not part of the PS world, as they are completely OOC in all they do. Also, likewise, it isn\'t realistic to have a world full of powerful warriors, and the PLs usually by far outnumber the RPers.

And no, there is no way I\'m going to \"just live with it\" if there is anything I can do to stop it. The same argument could be used for cheaters / exploiters, and obviously it is just as flawed.

zanzibar

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« Reply #12 on: September 02, 2005, 05:29:32 am »
Quote
Originally posted by Seytra
Quote
Originally posted by zanzibar
Better yet:  Why not allow powergaming?  Learn to live with it?  Learn to live with the people who choose to do it?  Even if it\'s two worlds living side by side but seperate, Power Gaming doesn\'t interfere with Role Playing any more than Role Playing interferes with Power Gaming.

It does, by the PvP it creates, even if it\'s only PL vs. PL, it still 1) clogs up the chat window and 2) shows in the screen. PLs don\'t care for where they battle, and thus often disrupt the atmosphere. Likewise, they will keep challenging RPers, creating spam that way, even when auto decline is on.
Also, once there is a decent economy, they will be responsible for flooding it with high powered items, destroying the balance.
Last but not least, they waste bandwidth, both for the server as well as for the clients, and also processing power. Since they are not wanted here, this is a waste.



Not wanted here?  What the heck?  They\'re players too, many of them do role play, and, and, and....

God damnit you\'re being so freaking elitist, and you don\'t even have anything to base it on!  Do you even realize what you\'re saying?



Quote
Originally posted by Seytra
Quote
Originally posted by zanzibar
It isn\'t realistic to have a world where everyone is equal in their skill with swords, or where everyone is equally nimble, etc.  It isn\'t realistic to have a world without powerful warriors, unless you consider typing \"/me effortessly deflects his attack\" to count.

No, it itn\'t. However, it is completely obvious that RPers will also become strong warriors. They will simply not have maxed stats within a week or two. Also, the PL as powerful warrior doesn\'t even show up IC-ly. They are not part of the PS world, as they are completely OOC in all they do. Also, likewise, it isn\'t realistic to have a world full of powerful warriors, and the PLs usually by far outnumber the RPers.

And no, there is no way I\'m going to \"just live with it\" if there is anything I can do to stop it. The same argument could be used for cheaters / exploiters, and obviously it is just as flawed.



It\'s ENTIRELY possible to power level without resorting to out of character communications!
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Seytra

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« Reply #13 on: September 02, 2005, 05:53:59 am »
Quote
Originally posted by zanzibar
Quote
Originally posted by Seytra
It does, by the PvP it creates, even if it\'s only PL vs. PL, it still 1) clogs up the chat window and 2) shows in the screen. PLs don\'t care for where they battle, and thus often disrupt the atmosphere. Likewise, they will keep challenging RPers, creating spam that way, even when auto decline is on.
Also, once there is a decent economy, they will be responsible for flooding it with high powered items, destroying the balance.
Last but not least, they waste bandwidth, both for the server as well as for the clients, and also processing power. Since they are not wanted here, this is a waste.

Not wanted here?  What the heck?  They\'re players too, many of them do role play, and, and, and....

God damnit you\'re being so freaking elitist,

I\'m not being elitist at all. I am just stating that not everyone is acceptable in PS. Not everyone\'s way to play MMORPGs fits here, so \"they are players, too\" doesn\'t quite cut it.
Quote
Originally posted by zanzibar
and you don\'t even have anything to base it on!  Do you even realize what you\'re saying?

I am wondering if you realize what I\'m saying. It\'s my impression that I provided a lot of things to base my opinion on...
Quote
Originally posted by zanzibar
Quote
Originally posted by Seytra
No, it itn\'t. However, it is completely obvious that RPers will also become strong warriors. They will simply not have maxed stats within a week or two. Also, the PL as powerful warrior doesn\'t even show up IC-ly. They are not part of the PS world, as they are completely OOC in all they do. Also, likewise, it isn\'t realistic to have a world full of powerful warriors, and the PLs usually by far outnumber the RPers.

And no, there is no way I\'m going to \"just live with it\" if there is anything I can do to stop it. The same argument could be used for cheaters / exploiters, and obviously it is just as flawed.

It\'s ENTIRELY possible to power level without resorting to out of character communications!

By doing no communicating at all, I presume? Granted, I have seen the occasional PL say something remotely RP-like, but still it\'s not just for the way one speaks, but for the way one acts as well. Furthermore, a PL doesn\'t have a char to begin with. Without a well defined char, there is no way of being able to RP.

hereticalfaction

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« Reply #14 on: September 02, 2005, 06:04:54 am »
Quote
Originally posted by Quietus_Silivren
It is a fallacy to think that mastering one skill should make it any harder to master another. Truely mastering any should (and I believe, will) take an absurd ammount of time, anyway, and mastering more than one would naturally take a proportionally greater ammount of time, no more (this is an important issue I will get into later).


Yes, what is realistic is that only the rarest person ever masters any skill. Most people are moderately competant in those tyhings which they apply their lives to, and mediocre at those activities they call hobbies or interests. Killing legendary beasts solo, Crafting mystical weapons, or harnessing the forces of the occult to create powerful spells are all Nobel-laureate level accomplishments in a medieval fantasy setting, but they are about lvl 20 skills in most games. The fact is that while we all can point to examples of \"real\" world people with many differrent, non-conflicting abillities, none of us would enjoy a game which limited us to realistic abillities. Our charachters are the heroic elite of the fantasy world they occupy.

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Originally posted by Quietus_Silivren
It is also unreasonable to say that \"roleplaying\" implies a lack of diversity within the individual, to be replaced by diversification within a group of specialized individuals. \"Over-specialize, and you breed in weakness.\" Not everyone\'s life goal is to be the absolute best at one thing and one thing only.


No, your right... \"roleplaying\" to most people means typing cybernetic renfaire babble into a chat client. And if there are no game mandated interdependancies between charachters, this is all roleplaying can be. Do you have any clue how much WORK medieval technologies reqired? Oh, sure, one could snare small animals and gather berries and live in a sod hut on their own labor alone, but the kind of advanced tools and weapons which we like our charachters to have required whole communities of specialist workers to produce. Now nobody is going to argue that PS should be \"historically accurate\" in this sence, but the completely self-reliant warrior-mage/thief/alchemist/miner/farmer/crafter, even an incompetant one stretches the \"fantasy\" aspect of the game a bit too far.

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Originally posted by Quietus_Silivren
 Roleplaying does not mean you are forced to rely on others for everything that is not your \"specialty.\"


No, but as an editorial decision the developers of this game have decided that a \"healthy in-game economy\" is one of their central goals. Economy of any type imlpies an imbalance of dissimmillar resources between differrent persons groups or localities, otherwise trade is pointless. IMO, PS just like all other games I have tried is falling into the trap of having a modern monetised economy where what stands for money is backed with perfect confidence. Making/gathering stuff and selling it for cash, cash which is immune to inflation default, counterfeit, or for now theft or loss of any kind is a silly way to engender an active economy.