Author Topic: a thought about that hurricane  (Read 12120 times)

derwoodly

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« Reply #30 on: September 01, 2005, 08:26:36 am »
Val,
I hope you don\'t feel picked on.   Usually there more liberal thinkers here.  I really thought I was the one who was going to get flamed.  

I have to be carefull with the white male race card lest you think me a bigot.  That is not really the case.  You speak of giving to those who need help.  I am all for this.  The problem I have with the government is that they tend to give to those who they think will vote for them.  I have worked for 6 bucks an hour to put myself through colledge (you would never know it by the way I spell, but I did go) that is 12,000 a year, is that poor enough for you (shared a studio for a place to live).  

I was hoping to pick your brain about what you thought about the Democrats, but you stated your not one.  This makes me wonder what you thought was going to happen at the last election.  What was it that made you so mad you thing there should be a Bush bashin thread every month?

Valbrandr

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« Reply #31 on: September 01, 2005, 08:37:54 am »
Nah Im okay.  And I hope everyone else understands that I dont mean anything personal.  This is just a debate.. that no one will win.  Ill try not to get too worked up.  But what I meant about being so angry and not being a democrat, since I have been in college (which I go to a private Catholic College so not your average liberal institution, and Im not catholic btw) I have been pushed further and further left.  I have studied President Bush too much that I have become bitter.  And I dont even want to get into him losing the first election.  Now I would consider myself a Socialist which is even further left on the political spectrum then democrats.  So on nearly every issue I side with Democrats and truely it would be very tough for me to ever vote for a republican.. of course I like Mccain.

derwoodly

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« Reply #32 on: September 01, 2005, 12:12:47 pm »
The first election?  With your education surly you have heard of the electoral college?  

Did any of your teachers have anything nice to say about Bush?  Did they all vote for Kerry?  I am more confused than ever by that last post of yours.

I could not vote for Kerry.  He was just too rich, and I did not want his wife as the first lady.  I also got the impresion Kerry would have had to ask his wife before he made any important decissions.

Gore was another joke.  Surly you must have studied him.  He invented the internet!  Yea, yea, I have heard the spin on that one... what he really said was... blah blah blah I was apart of making the laws that created the internet.  Ha! I was there! I heard the speach the first time with my own ears.   When you go over to your relatives this weekend ask them how they remember it.  Never mind what scholars say.  They did not think Bush could win.  Well they were wrong.  Not everyone thinks like a college professor.  Some of us work for a living.

DepthBlade

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« Reply #33 on: September 02, 2005, 02:37:55 am »
Quote
Originally posted by Valbrandr
Hmm didnt know you cared about anything the way you treat people Depth.  Everyone mourns for them but should we have a hundred posts of people saying how sorry they are and whatnot?  That would become so cliche.. yes we care but I myself am talking about what has been happening for the last what 3 years where gas prices have gone up and up.  In another day or so they will be triple what they were 8 years ago where I live.  That is outragous. Which is completely a different issue then \"Hey, I dont care about what happened to the thousands of people down south.. I just want gas to be affordable.\"


The way I treat people lol? I treat the idiots like idiots, the talented with respect and the nice people get treated nicely. To come on and start talking about how a hurricane was sole ly a plot by a government and talking like that over this kind of event in time. That is disrespectful in so many ways. No I don\'t expect everyone to express their sadness, perhaps to expect nothing at all on the issue would be best sometimes.
« Last Edit: September 02, 2005, 02:39:51 am by DepthBlade »

mikewsnc

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« Reply #34 on: September 02, 2005, 04:16:22 am »
Let me start by saying I have missed you all since I have been without internet for almost a week now.
But with that said I have to say a few things about the comments made in this thread.

1: (Oil)
    The natural resources within the earth will run out. That is a fact. Bones can not biodegrate at the rate we are useing these minerals. Increaseing the drilling and pumping capacity in and around alaska I believe is a short lived fix to an ever growing problem. We as a country really need to stop crying about the price and start doing something. Hybred cars to this point are the best temporary solution I have seen to this delima. Hybreds can be bought for as little as 12k and most get 60+ miles per gallon. This is only the begining. We need to dresticly increase the funding for hydrogen based engine research. I beleave this combined with solar cell enegry cells that can save the enery in themselves for use when the sun is not out, these are the only solutions we truely have in the near future.

2: (war on terror)
    Bush I beleave truely was mis-informed. That said there was much that could have been done much differantly. We did a honorable thing or at least it will be seen that way in the end. We freed an entire country from terrony. That in my opinion should have been outlined as the primary reason for going to war with Iraq. Not WMD\'s (which we know he had...I mean we did give them to him). At the end of the day as I sit back with my bottle of LTD and attempt to type this correctly, all I can say is now Bush knows he planed this war wrong but he also knows he can not back down because of the long term impact that would put on America\'s sacurity.

3: (Border Policy in America)
    I completly understand the reason why so many people wish to leave Mexico and South America. I feel for them. They want to live where they have a chance for there kids to be successful. On that same note though CLOSE THE FREAKING BORDERS. As it stands now it takes roughly 12 months. I would openly agree to shortning that proccess. I say if you wish to come to this country take 1 month to check there background and then once your here please learn our language. It is just a matter of respect. There is no good reason why there should be a need for public school to teach in any language other than english. I would not exspect Mexican\'s to learn english just because I ran to there country and I dont feel we should be forced to do the same.

These are just a few thoughts from a conservitive mind. I myself plan to run for public office in my lifetime. Hopefully I am better able to think out the ending to things I do. Forgive my errors in this post as I am a little tipped right now.


Aranis
Only sacrifice will bring true reward.

Valbrandr

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« Reply #35 on: September 02, 2005, 04:38:40 am »
For the most part that was a very good post trying to stay away from plain personal bias.  The only part I dont agree with is the closing the border.  My problem with it is America has always been accused of a \"Brain Drain\" .  Basicaly we try to take the most inteligent and educated people.  And we only allow something like 500,000 immigrants to migrate here in a year and a very small percentage of that is the basic average people.  Now, sure if people can make it here there could be a good chance of them getting to stay.  And if we do this than lets close the border with Canada as well. Just because they are white people who speak english for the most part and are not poor doesnt mean they should get a free ride here.  But I know.  Im an Idealist and I do believe things should be more perfect then they currently are.

mikewsnc

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« Reply #36 on: September 02, 2005, 05:20:20 am »
Oh no I totaly agree with you. Close canadas border also. Truth of the matter is though that 90 percent of illegals do come across the mexico border. Problem is, There leaders. If they can be called that. Ok I am too slammed to continue this post but on a last note. I am an American. I beleave in helping anyone who helps themselves as well. I have no problem with Mexican\'s, Latino\'s, Cubans, Muslims, African\'s or anyone else who wishes to call America home as I do. I just wish more of them would respect the sovernty that a true nation should have. I feel many of them nations I mentionend are way overdue for an upriseing, a civil war if you will. The people need to take charge of there own countrys if they ever wish to not have to leave the place they call home just to find the better life.


Aranis
Only sacrifice will bring true reward.

DepthBlade

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« Reply #37 on: September 02, 2005, 06:51:24 pm »
Wow you guys come on here talking up USA like everyone wants to be there. When the fact is your country is on a spiral down at this point in time and the only real ones that want to come to your poverty stricten, celebrity centered, egotistic nation are the ones that want to destroy you, the ones that believe the dream of going there and getting rich fast and last but not least those poor innocent souls who have not ever had the luxuries as most do outside their nations.

 Close the borders? Yes please I would love to see you close your borders to Canada, really I would love to see it happen. As a Canadian nothing would make me happier then seeing less Americans come hunt, fish, and roam our great nation. While your at it close the trade to all those nations around you and soon you will find out how fast your country relies on others for resources. Not only resources but the tourisim from other nations to your big resorts, vacation hot spots.

 I am not neccesarily a hater of USA but I sure can\'t stand listening to idiots who don\'t know what the hell they are talking about. If you ever were elected to your nations government you would just help that spiral to become a cliff. Perhaps that is for the better though.

Valbrandr

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« Reply #38 on: September 02, 2005, 09:38:15 pm »
Quote
Originally posted by DepthBlade
Wow you guys come on here talking up USA like everyone wants to be there. When the fact is your country is on a spiral down at this point in time and the only real ones that want to come to your poverty stricten, celebrity centered, egotistic nation are the ones that want to destroy you, the ones that believe the dream of going there and getting rich fast and last but not least those poor innocent souls who have not ever had the luxuries as most do outside their nations.

 Close the borders? Yes please I would love to see you close your borders to Canada, really I would love to see it happen. As a Canadian nothing would make me happier then seeing less Americans come hunt, fish, and roam our great nation. While your at it close the trade to all those nations around you and soon you will find out how fast your country relies on others for resources. Not only resources but the tourisim from other nations to your big resorts, vacation hot spots.

 I am not neccesarily a hater of USA but I sure can\'t stand listening to idiots who don\'t know what the hell they are talking about. If you ever were elected to your nations government you would just help that spiral to become a cliff. Perhaps that is for the better though.


Haha you are not even American nor, I assume, have you ever been to America.  Where do you get your information from?  Our economy is, if I am not mistaken is over 5 times the size as Britains.  And we are growing at still a very good rate... more than nearly every country in Europe.  Yes many Americans tend to believe that our country is better then every other country on earth.  Which is obviously not true.  But if you really want to get into this conversation.. Im game


Quote
I am not neccesarily a hater of USA but I sure can\'t stand listening to idiots who don\'t know what the hell they are talking about.


*cough cough and you are talking about yourself?

Efflixi Aduro

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« Reply #39 on: September 03, 2005, 05:54:03 am »
I don\'t know if you guys have read this letter written by Michal Moor yet but here it is: I found it amusing to say the least :).)

Dear Mr. Bush:

Any idea where all our helicopters are? It\'s Day 5 of Hurricane Katrina and thousands remain stranded in New Orleans and need to be airlifted. Where on earth could you have misplaced all our military choppers? Do you need help finding them? I once lost my car in a Sears parking lot. Man, was that a drag.

Also, any idea where all our national guard soldiers are? We could really use them right now for the type of thing they signed up to do like helping with national disasters. How come they weren\'t there to begin with?

Last Thursday I was in south Florida and sat outside while the eye of Hurricane Katrina passed over my head. It was only a Category 1 then but it was pretty nasty. Eleven people died and, as of today,
there were still homes without power. That night the weatherman said this storm was on its way to New Orleans. That was Thursday! Did anybody tell you? I know you didn\'t want to interrupt your vacation and I know how you don\'t like to get bad news. Plus, you had fundraisers to go to and mothers of dead soldiers to ignore and smear. You sure showed her!

I especially like how, the day after the hurricane, instead of flying to Louisiana, you flew to San Diego to party with your business peeps. Don\'t let people criticize you for this -- after all, the hurricane was over and what the heck could you do, put your finger in the dike?

And don\'t listen to those who, in the coming days, will reveal how you specifically reduced the Army Corps of Engineers\' budget for New Orleans this summer for the third year in a row. You just tell them that even if you hadn\'t cut the money to fix those levees, there weren\'t going to be any Army engineers to fix them anyway because you had a much more important construction job for them -- BUILDING DEMOCRACY IN IRAQ!

On Day 3, when you finally left your vacation home, I have to say I was moved by how you had your Air Force One pilot descend from the clouds as you flew over New Orleans so you could catch a quick look of the disaster. Hey, I know you couldn\'t stop and grab a bullhorn and stand on some rubble and act like a commander in chief. Been there done that.


There will be those who will try to politicize this tragedy and try to use it against you. Just have your people keep pointing that out. Respond to nothing. Even those pesky scientists who predicted this would happen because the water in the Gulf of Mexico is getting hotter and hotter making a storm like this inevitable. Ignore them and all their global warming Chicken Littles. There is nothing unusual about a hurricane that was so wide it would be like having one F-4 tornado that stretched from New York to Cleveland.


No, Mr. Bush, you just stay the course. It\'s not your fault that 30 percent of New Orleans lives in poverty or that tens of thousands had no transportation to get out of town. C\'mon, they\'re black! I mean, it\'s not like this happened to Kennebunkport. Can you imagine leaving white people on their roofs for five days? Don\'t make me laugh! Race has nothing -- NOTHING -- to do with this!

You hang in there, Mr. Bush. Just try to find a few of our Army helicopters and send them there. Pretend the people of New Orleans and the Gulf Coast are near Tikrit.

P.S. That annoying mother, Cindy Sheehan, is no longer at your ranch. She and dozens of other relatives of the Iraqi War dead are now driving across the country, stopping in many cities along the way. Maybe you can catch up with them before they get to DC on September 21st
Lol Internet

Valbrandr

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« Reply #40 on: September 03, 2005, 09:17:40 am »
Wow that is awesome.  Yeah Michael Moore is a nut but nicely said.  And many of the questions are valid.

Induane

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« Reply #41 on: September 03, 2005, 07:52:52 pm »
Quote
Valbrandr I have a question for you; How much petrolium product do you consume in your day to day life?

Now take that number and multiply it by a few billion and you will have one of the main reasons why prices for petrolium products are on the rise.

Rember petrolium is a nonreplenishable reasourse the more that is used up the more it\'s value will rise.


I personally drive quite a ways every day to work, but I drive a small Kia Sephia to cut down on fuel consumption.  I despise the people cruising around in H2\'s or Giant SUV\'s, but they are not the real problem - the real problem is OPEC and the Oil Refineries.  Here\'s the facts jack.  Oil supply has NOTHING to do with gas prices. If you beleive that then you are misinformed, stubborn or just plain stupid.  

It costs OPEC $4.21 US dollars to drill for, market and ship one barrel of oil.  They sell that same barrel of oil for approximately $70.01 currently.  Considering the $4.21 average cost per barrel includes all expenses, that means that the majority of that is PURE profit.  The oil industry doesn\'t follow the standard economic format of supply and demand, instead they market on demand only, - a monopoply because the workd is dependant on oil.

The next reason is patnents.  In the late 50\'s and clear until the 70\'s, car manufactures invented carburators that acheived nearly 50-60 mpg, which is better than a hybrid car gets today.  The patents for these were bought out by Sinclair, BP, and Exon, where the plans were destroyed.  Better gas milage meant less profit for them too, so while its a smart business move it really hurt us.

And finally the gas prices are gouged by refinery companies.  Intentionally.  The reason gas prices in the US are so high is partiall because we lack the refining capicity.  This is intentional.  If we could refine tons of gas easily, then the price would go down, as would profits.   If we had build plenty of refineries, then losing 8 refineries to the hurricane wouldn\'t have hurt us as much.  

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Ok wake up people we have been needing to open up Alaska for drilling for a long time.


Bush announced that he would open the US Alaskan Oil reserves to help gas prices.  This is purly a PR move, as anyone knows that the oil supply here isn\'t what is making the gas prices go up after the hurricane.  ITS THE LACK OF REFINERIES! More oil doesn\'t mean that more gas will be produced.  In fact it doesn\'t change that ammount at all.  The only positive spin from this is Wall Street, where investors stand to lose alot of money unless consumer confidence doesn\'t drop drastically as a result of the gas scare.  

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valbrandr, if you saw 10 million dollars that you could have simplyy by taking it, even if it would hurt other people, would you take it? don\'t say no, that would be a lie, there is no one who wouldn\'t, communism doesn\'t need people to be more intelligent, it needs people to be perfect, and that will never happen


Hmmm whats wrong with people these days?  I have denied many better job offers because my current job allows me flexible scheduling so I can be with my family when necessary.  Why do people care so much about money? Is that the American dream?  I say screw that - my American dream is comming home and having a family filled with love.  Yes providing is important - but a modest income is enough for me so long as  I can watch my kid grow up.

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Power, sex, pleasure, anger, revenge, the list goes on and on. And I am more than willing to bet that you have fallen prey to more than one of these greeds. After all there is no perfect man and there never will be.


Agreed no one is perfect and I am far far from perfect.  There is one level though I can\' go to and that is hurting someone else to better myself.  Self defense is an exception - someone is pointing a gun at my wife, they are either going to have to kill me or they will be killed. You kill my wife, I will hunt you down - so revenge maybe, but revenge isn\'t without provocation.  I\'m not tough enough to just let someone who killed my wife or baby just go, and I\'m not going to try to \"capture them\" for the cops.  Screw that, either they are going down or me. :) I\'m sounding like a really pleasant fellow right now... the point I\'m trying to make is that we all have our weaknesses, but I do believe that with the support of the pople around you in a good society, real communism could work, as long as the necessary paradigm shift occurred. I think communism doesn\'t rely on people being perfect, just people believing in the sytem is enough.

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I was hoping to pick your brain about what you thought about the Democrats, but you stated your not one. This makes me wonder what you thought was going to happen at the last election. What was it that made you so mad you thing there should be a Bush bashin thread every month?


Well, I\'ll admit personally I was an anybody but Bush person.  I liked Kerry only slightly more actually as he seemed just a fake.  Bush had a stupid smirk all the time and Kerry always seemed to be acting grandly.  Bullshit I say.  Personally I say screw both major parties.  Both are corrupt organizations who are NOT looking out for the common person - neither one is.  Some might promote different values - republicans TEND (not always) think things are completely black and white - i.e. abortion, gay marriage, etc, while democrats see more grey shades.  Probabily neither are right. I\'d like to see someone truely progressive and different in office - not just President, but across the board.  How many poor people ar e sitting in congress, or in the Oval Office?  To me thats descrimination based on income - I don\'t believe that the average rich politican represents me very well.  I love America but something has to change - the voice of the people has been lost.  Each president is a face to a Party, a puppet of sorts.  All blurting out what they think YOU want to hear. I\'d rather someone not like that at all.

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Be glad you aren\'t living in Europe gas prices in the Uk are close to hitting $6.00 a gallon


That doesn\'t affect people as badly in the UK because of geographical distances.  The average commute for an American vs a European is way longer for an American.  Also being so big physically there isn\'t much of a nationwide mass transit system.

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I am an American. I beleave in helping anyone who helps themselves as well.


Thats good and I\'m not arguing with waht you said in your post it just sparked a thought for me.  I have some republican friends who hate social programs. They do not believe that the government should be able to tax them to give money to poor people.  They believe anyone who is homeless (or at least most of them) are just lazy - and not that they shouldn\'t be helped but that the gov shouldn\'t tell them what to do with their money - wealth redistributation = bad to them.  Its an arguable point.  But  for one alot of people who are homeless are mentally ill:

Approximately 22% of the single adult homeless population suffers from some form of severe and persistent mental illness (U.S. Conference of Mayors, 2001). Despite the disproportionate number of severely mentally ill people among the homeless population, increases in homelessness are not attributable to the release of severely mentally ill people from institutions.

and another factor:

For families and individuals struggling to pay the rent, a serious illness or disability can start a downward spiral into homelessness, beginning with a lost job, depletion of savings to pay for care, and eventual eviction. In 2000, approximately 38.7 million Americans had no health care insurance (U.S. Bureau of the Census, 1998b). Nearly a third of persons living in poverty had no health insurance of any kind. The coverage held by many others would not carry them through a catastrophic illness.

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Homelessness results from a complex set of circumstances which require people to choose between food, shelter, and other basic needs. Only a concerted effort to ensure jobs that pay a living wage, adequate support for those who cannot work, affordable housing, and access to health care will bring an end to homelessness.


The problem is also hypocracy.  Alot of people wouldn\'t choose to do charitable things with their money, so the Gov has to use taxes for it or the amount of homelessness and poverty would be even worse.

Just my $70.01 worth

DepthBlade

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« Reply #42 on: September 04, 2005, 01:05:14 am »
Quote
Originally posted by Valbrandr
Quote
Originally posted by DepthBlade
Wow you guys come on here talking up USA like everyone wants to be there. When the fact is your country is on a spiral down at this point in time and the only real ones that want to come to your poverty stricten, celebrity centered, egotistic nation are the ones that want to destroy you, the ones that believe the dream of going there and getting rich fast and last but not least those poor innocent souls who have not ever had the luxuries as most do outside their nations.

 Close the borders? Yes please I would love to see you close your borders to Canada, really I would love to see it happen. As a Canadian nothing would make me happier then seeing less Americans come hunt, fish, and roam our great nation. While your at it close the trade to all those nations around you and soon you will find out how fast your country relies on others for resources. Not only resources but the tourisim from other nations to your big resorts, vacation hot spots.

 I am not neccesarily a hater of USA but I sure can\'t stand listening to idiots who don\'t know what the hell they are talking about. If you ever were elected to your nations government you would just help that spiral to become a cliff. Perhaps that is for the better though.


Haha you are not even American nor, I assume, have you ever been to America.  Where do you get your information from?  Our economy is, if I am not mistaken is over 5 times the size as Britains.  And we are growing at still a very good rate... more than nearly every country in Europe.  Yes many Americans tend to believe that our country is better then every other country on earth.  Which is obviously not true.  But if you really want to get into this conversation.. Im game


Quote
I am not neccesarily a hater of USA but I sure can\'t stand listening to idiots who don\'t know what the hell they are talking about.


*cough cough and you are talking about yourself?


Yes I am sure you are all knowledgable about your nations economy, you honestly think your that self sufficent? I know that my country supplies your lumber, majority of your \"Beef\", over 1/4 of your northern states power supply (I work at one of the power plants). There is probally more I am not naming off, and its common sense that every nation is dependant off the rest. So to say your economy which might be rather large is so great to withstand on its own and wouldn\'t need anyone elses would be bull. Your economy isn\'t getting better with this hurricane you have just lost a good percent of your oil, when those oil platforms went bye bye. So whats this mean invade another country and blame it on terrorism?

*Cough cough no I was talking about you in particular.

Hatchnet

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« Reply #43 on: September 04, 2005, 07:25:24 am »
Yes Efflixe I find it amuseing to say the least. This thing (I loath to call him a person) is one of those that twist facts to make them sound different or even worse than what they are Just like the looting and gunfire in New Orleans Michal moore is yet another sighn og what is wrong with people today.

And one more thing. If those mothers so intent on dishonering the memorys of their dead children who died fighting for freadom are so much better than him; why pray tell aren\'t they in New Orleans helping out instead of still traveling across country trying to defame others?


Edit: Depthblad I don\'t know where you got that but Canada does not supply the magority of our beef. In fact the magority of beef raised in the world is in the remaining great cattle ranges here in the US (you know the ones where everything is still free range) some of these areas cover nearly entire states. On the other hand care to guess where Canada and most other nations get all their corn, wheat ect: thats right the bread baskett.
« Last Edit: September 04, 2005, 07:36:12 am by Hatchnet »

Valbrandr

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« Reply #44 on: September 04, 2005, 07:52:06 am »
Quote
Yes I am sure you are all knowledgable about your nations economy, you honestly think your that self sufficent? I know that my country supplies your lumber, majority of your \"Beef\", over 1/4 of your northern states power supply (I work at one of the power plants). There is probally more I am not naming off, and its common sense that every nation is dependant off the rest. So to say your economy which might be rather large is so great to withstand on its own and wouldn\'t need anyone elses would be bull. Your economy isn\'t getting better with this hurricane you have just lost a good percent of your oil, when those oil platforms went bye bye. So whats this mean invade another country and blame it on terrorism?


Who said anything about the United States being self sufficient?  I said nothing of it. Every country in this world to an extent is not self sufficient.  We have integrated economies.  However the US is one of the better off countries in this catagory.  And why do you throw statistics out there that you have no proof of?  And stop being stupid Depth.. I am not even on Americas side.  I thought the war in Iraq was absolutely wrong.  The US government trumped up charges and yes they got their war.  But I assume you dont know anything about that either so lets just stop here.. unless you can come up with something a little less biased and a little more truthful.