a thought about that hurricane

[Valbrandr]

Originally posted by derwoodly
Your idea of below humanity is different than mine.  Perhaps that is because my opinions are ignorant and stupid as you say.

    \"What country *has* complied with UN rules? None,
      so why should we be any different.\"

Since you quoted this twice, I seem to have hit on some sort of nerve, I apologize.  It was a rather flipent remark.

My question to you then is.  How do you propose we capture and question Terroists? From my point of view it looks like were are the only ones who are even trying to uphold the Geneva conventions.  When our humanity was called into question we changed our procedures, we have allowed Guant?namo to be inspected.  That is certainly more than anyone else has done.

The reason the US needs to comply with UN regulations is because we are the US.  If we dont follow then no one else will.  We are the country with the power of persuasion to get others onboard.  And in my opinion the US is stupid for not doing so.  Well and about your \"America is the only one doing something about terrorism\" a big part of why there is terrorism/ acts of terrror is because of the US.

[Xordan]

Originally posted by Valbrandr
We are the country with the power of persuasion to get others onboard.

No, you are the country with the biggest amount of guns and largest economy. You have no persuasive power other than the fact that you can invade almost any country you like, or cut off trade with that country toally screwing it over.  

[Valbrandr]

everything Xordan just said:

=

Power of persuasion

[Cyl]

And when nobody can stop a country doing what it wants to do, then that country can technically do what it wants to do. We can\'t have all these laws and stuff when there\'s no penalty for breaking them. There\'s no country in the world that can stop the US from doing what it wants, same goes for the UK.

Dont say that to loudly ...

[derwoodly]

Originally posted by Valbrandr
.... a big part of why there is terrorism/ acts of terror is because of the US.

I hope you don\'t mean that we deserved to have our citizens kidnapped and blown up.  

Help educate me on this one.  I thought we were relative latecomers in the whole Jews and Muslims struggle. When did this mess become our entire fault?  Is it because we use all the oil?  When China uses more Oil than the USA will the problem be all their fault then?

[Valbrandr]

It doesnt have anything to do with oil per se.  And truthfully not one of us here is inteligent enough to explain what is happening.  It is what we have done in the past for one.  For example the US helping Afghanistan defend itself against the Soviet Union... and what did we do to Afghanistan after the USSR was defeated?  We left their country in shambles.. and did nothing to help them rebuild.. now guess who took over the country.  It does have something to do with the way we side with Israel on nearly every matter in the Middle East... and please dont say anything like \"what are we supposed to do because terrorists keep attacking them.\"  Do you understand what they do to get terrorists?  Basically they do whatever they want and even attacking refugee camps.  Did you know we give them 2 -3 billion a year so they will stay peaceful?  Did you also know we sell them experimental weapons?  

These are just two examples.. and there are so many more reason to \"Why they hate us.\"

[derwoodly]

What I asked is, if you thought we deserved to be attacked.  Well actually, I told you not to tell me that.  This whole line of questioning was brought about by the remark you made about terrorism being the fault of the USA.

I thought you were going to enlighten me, not back out with a comment on both of our intelligence.  Here is a summery of what I know.

The area has been at war nearly since the dawn of civilization.  But for the last 1400 years until about 60 years ago it has been under Muslim control.  Now the Muslims want it back, all of it, with interest. The USA has been in the middle of it ever since the 70?s.  So, like it or not we are at war.  We can surrender, and let the chips fall where they may, but that is not going to happen with the current administration.  

And by the way, the UN is neck deep and covered in blood on this issue.

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Articles/MiddleEast.htm

[Xordan]

The UN is a waste of space. Everyone ignores it and France veto\'s everything that doesn\'t benefit France.

[Valbrandr]

The state of Israel was recreated in 1948 Derwoody.. after the atrocities the Jews endured.  Since then that area has constantly been at war.  By the way, if you did not know, the Jews that moved back to Israel were the ones who first started using terrorism not any arab or persian.  British troops used to be settled in the area only allowing a certain number of people flowing back into Israel.  Barracks were bombed, and many other things happened until Britain wiped their hands clean.  Since then the area has been very volitile.  And America has not helped the situation one bit other than helping the Israeli army become a very efficient fighting force with exceptional military technology.  So Israel can definatly take care of themselves... which in some ways leads to people using terror tactics...

\"The strong do what they will, the weak do what they must\"

I cant remember who this quote is by... but it is very fitting in this situation.


 

The UN is a waste of space. Everyone ignores it and France veto\'s everything that doesn\'t benefit France.

Actually I am going to partially agree.  If we do not give the UN the power to function then there should be no UN.  However I want the UN to be greater than the parts, instead of the US doing whatever it wants and so on.  And to the second part Xordan... truthfully I hate politics

[Cyl]

derwoodly I think Valbrandr didnt mean that americans deserved the terror, just that some actions taken by the government invite terrorists to attack it, give them a reason to do so.

It is the governments fault not the american people\'s, but terrorists choose targets they can reach, even if the top ten thousands dont mind that much in their bullet proof cars and houses with private army ...

[Xordan]

Originally posted by Cyl
It is the governments fault not the american people\'s

In a \'demoracy\' it\'s always the people\'s fault. The Government is voted in by the people to represent the people\'s views. But then, I don\'t see the US as a democracy. It\'s more like a capitalist republic.

[Valbrandr]

derwoodly I think Valbrandr didnt mean that americans deserved the terror, just that some actions taken by the government invite terrorists to attack it, give them a reason to do so.

Exactly Cyl.  Sorry for not clearing that up.  I guess that is one reason why I I dont like the current regime.. along with many of the others.. they make decisions and we pay for them.

In a \'demoracy\' it\'s always the people\'s fault. The Government is voted in by the people to represent the people\'s views. But then, I don\'t see the US as a democracy. It\'s more like a capitalist republic.

There you go.  I wish America was the democracy that we promote.  But I think Capitalist Republic is a very fair assumption.

[derwoodly]

[EDIT: you can read poorly written gibberish or just go here http://www.nationalreview.com/goldberg/goldberg120402.asp  Goldberg says it oh so much better than I ever could. ]

Originally posted by Valbrandr
The state of Israel was recreated in 1948 Derwoody.. after the atrocities the Jews endured.  Since then that area has constantly been at war.  By the way, if you did not know, the Jews that moved back to Israel were the ones who first started using terrorism not any arab or persian.  British troops used to be settled in the area only allowing a certain number of people flowing back into Israel.  Barracks were bombed, and many other things happened until Britain wiped their hands clean.  Since then the area has been very volitile.

Yes, I did here of that, and it is on the web site of the link I provided.

From what I read, Israel was recreated, voted on and argued over.  The consensis is tha it is here to stay.  Now hard line Muslims do not like this.  Well that is tough.  You don\'t always get what you want.  I don\'t want stem cell research, but I am not going to bomb the lab.  I am going to live with it.  That is what is expected of everyone requardless if they are week or strong.  Bombing embasys, kidnapping civilians, blowing up buildings should never be tolerated.  The Jews that did that in the 1940\'s and 1950\'s should have been treated with the same contempt.  It is quite possible that Israel may never have been recreated if the UN did not give into Jewish terrorist back then, but that is the past.  Destroying Israel now is not an option as far as I know.  If after 50 years of peacefull protests by Muslims go by, then the UN might reconsider, I don\'t know.  I do know that 50 more years of random terroist bombings will not make Israel disapear.

What really bugs me, is that anyone who defends America is ment with statements like we invited the Terrorist attacks.  I am sure, you did not mean it that way, but that is what I read when I read the last few posts.

I would never say that we invited terroist attacks, I would say that we should have expected terrorist attacks.  Maybe samantics to you, but to me it sounds like the arguemet that is use to defend rapist-- \"wear\'n that, she was just askin fur it\".  If anyone has invited anything it has been Sadam.  When asked to step down he said \"Not untill the last drop of ...\".  Well you know the rest.

[ramlambmoo]

What really bugs me, is that anyone who defends America is ment [sic] with statements like we invited the Terrorist attacks.

http://www.uwec.edu/grossmzc/interventions.html

I think its safe to say America has aggressivly pursued its interests in alot of countries.

[derwoodly]

Thanks Ram for link.  To prove I read it, here is a quote...
...
The attacks of September 11 were not only a test for U.S. citizens attitudes\' toward minority ethnic/racial groups in their own country, but a test for our relationship with the rest of the world. We must begin not by lashing out at civilians in Muslim countries, but by taking responsibility for our own history and our own actions, and how they have fed the cycle of violence.
...

I think your  Assistant Professor of Geography missed the part where we asked the Taliban to turn over Bin Ladin and they refused.  We prety much had the blessing of the western world on that one, maybe with out Dr. Zoltan Grossman, or you, but most of the country was for taking out the Taliban, not talking to them.