Magic without mana

[Ethan]

Hi,
It is only a wish and I think it would never happen, but :
What about magic whitout mana ?
why ?
-Because mana is nonsense.
-Because in order to make a good game, you don\'t necessarily have to
copy, what other have done so far. It is good to innovate.
One of the best explanation of what is mana could be : it is used to represent \"mental stamina\". Now, \"mental stamina\" and \"body stamina\" are not splited but together in \"stamina\". I think there is no need to split them : if you can\'t move your arm because your body is too tired or because you are too tired (mental) to wish it, it is about the same thing. The cost of spell could be paid with stamina or hit-points.
But that doesn\'t mean magic is easier, to learn how to use glyph, to purify them, to combine them in order to have a spell, to cast a spell, you should have knowledge.

[odd2k]

Hm, well I was thinking something like this: No matter how much or little mana/stamina a character has, he can always cast most of his spells, just with much less power. Mana could be discarded and combined with general stamina, or it could simply be called \"mental stamina\" or \"fatique\". Point being, you will always be able to use magic, but for the big spells you will need to focus. There is already a seamless slider for controlling spell power (although I guess its not working like it should). Now, simply make it so that more powerful spells require and drain more fatique to cast, but you can also cast weak variants of the spells even with 0 mana/stamina.

Just an idea.

[Draklar]

Hmm... I suppose Xordan is against mana-based magic system so there\'s always the possibility that mana will be removed.

Although myself I think spell casting shouldn\'t have any limitations. No mana, no mental stamina and most of all no spells/day system...

I\'d like to see spell casting having the only draw back that whenever you try casting a spell, you may encounter some random backfiring. Keeping in mind that basic spells have minimal chance of that happening, whilst powerful spells quite high with the addition of results being pretty bad.

For example casting some simple fireball spell might cause slight fire damage to caster, while casting some powerful crystal way spell might cause caster to become blind for some time. Some over the top dark way spell might also cause instant death. This way people would think more of consequences, less of what should be mana/stamina \"points\" used on.

You wouldn\'t see mages casting out of boredom \"armageddon\" at a stupid rat, because it wouldn\'t be worth it...

It\'s much more realistic and fun, no matter how you look at it...

[Ethan]

I am agree about one point : you should be always able to cast spell/use magic abilities .....  but your dealing with your life (stamina/hp loses). About the cost of the spell, it should be relative to the difficulty of the spell  and to the experience you have with it. But never really, with no cost. Whatever you do, there is always a price, life is life.
I would add one thing but I gess it has already been say. Magic (and also fighting, and all capacities in fact) should have malus due to the character\'s conscience and pain. (This can be represented, in order to initiate this system ,with the ratio of stamina and the ratio of hp, respectively.)

PS : This is also only my point of view.

PS : Didn\'t see your post, Draklar. Of course, draw back has to be implemented with magic. (This is in wishlist.) Someone using magic (in fact everybody should ever bother of the consequence. About no limitation, I would rather say : the stamina limitation is not a magic limitation but more a body/spirit limitation. And I thinks it is very needed.

[zanzibar]

Mana represents mental stamina, and should therefore stay.


However, perhaps spells should cost a combination of mana, stamina, and health points.  Some spells may cost only health points, others only mana, others a combination or perhaps all three.

[Draklar]

Originally posted by zanzibar
Mana represents mental stamina, and should therefore stay.

Mana represents forces of ether floating throughout the world (just like eastern ki/chi energy). This and mental stamina are different things.
Also, mana can be used not only as an inner force, which gathers in mage\'s body. Mana can be also an outer force, which has to be entwined in order for spell to work... In such case there wouldn\'t be any mana points, because that doesn\'t change (asides from the fact that there might be more mana at some magical places, thus spellcasting would be easier or spells stronger).

[Ethan]

:-) Seems like GURPS definition, I like it.

When in my first post I explained mana, I was explained what mana was used in game for and so I called it mental stamina but the definition of Draklar explain what the concept mana really is.

[Rage McCloud]

I still believe mana should stay

Edit: sorry i didnt give an explanation i was at school and it was lunch time
anyways... i just believe it should stay because, well what else could we use we must have something to use, this way someone couldnt use their 1000 attack fireblast over and over during a pk... maybe it would use stamina since if you drain your mental power you could become tired...

[Ethan]

Originally posted by Rage McCloud
I still believe mana should stay

I like this kind of post because it does really enrich the converstation.

Can you give any raison, explanation ?
I see one, but your may be more subtle : you are used to it and you don\'t see why it should be different.

[Zan]

Your explanation makes as good as no sense to me.

Mana or mental stamina or whatever you want to call it has no direct relation to physical stamina. Physical stamina is the potency of your muscles while mana is magical energy.

However I do not really see why we need a mana bar, especially right now. Needing mana is yet another thing that currently unbalances whole the mages vs fighters equation. A fighter can keep hitting but a mage can\'t keep casting because he \'ll run out of mana.

The way I see it any spell needs mana/magical energy to be cast but I don\'t see why that energy has to come from the caster\'s own pool (mana bar). Instead it should come from your surroundings. A mage who starts to cast a spell gathers mana from his surroundings and when he has enough the spell is cast ... that is the idea behind the casting time being the main element and not the mana pool. The stronger the spell the longer it takes to cast. The better the mage the quicker he can cast/gather mana.

Building from this idea we can put a lot of diversity and strategy in the use of magics as well. We can create dark way spells that will directly feed off the energies of the caster. These spells will be cast immediately but they will drain the caster\'s health.

We can also have certain environments or weather conditions playing a role in casting times. For example blue way spells will be cast much faster underwater or when it rains than in the desert or on a dry sunny day. Red way spells will work immediately when there is enough fire around but won\'t work at all under water. Azure way spells work best in windy places while brown way spells can\'t be cast when the caster is flying high up in the air.

With this one could put a lot more variation in using magic because now the caster won\'t have to pay attention to their mana bar but instead will need to be careful what spells to cast in which environment. Mages will be getting environmental and meteorological bonuses or malluses on their casting time which can go from an immediate cast to a failed casting due to lacking energy.

[Ethan]

Your explanation makes as good as no sense to me.

Well... It\'s true that my English is not perfect.. But you are giving arguments, so that\'s fine.

Mana or mental stamina or whatever you want to call it has no direct relation to physical stamina. Physical stamina is the potency of your muscles while mana is magical energy.

Mana has no direct relation to physical stamina, I am agree. For what I called \"mental stamina\", it is true that is not really the same thing but when you are really \"low\" at one of them you can do nothing. Und  the current state of developement of PS doesn\'t allow to distinguish each one from the other one. So as a beginning and in order to simplify the first implementation of it, I suggested to only use stamina.

However I do not really see why we need a mana bar, especially right now. Needing mana is yet another thing that currently unbalances whole the mages vs fighters equation. A fighter can keep hitting but a mage can\'t keep casting because he \'ll run out of mana.

That\'s the main point and we are agree.

Ceremony, which is composed by a amount of time, gestures, speech, symbols, objects, material and concentration is a help to the caster and help him to use surrounding mana.
The ceremony use stamina(body stamina can be a little for some movement, more if there is some kind of dance), \"mind stamina\" (concentration), may have blood like symbols, objects or material, and like I say before other  symbols, objects or material.
The mage have to choose how he want to cast his spell but there will be bonus/according to the importance of the ceremony.
Experience allow to reduce the importance of the ceremony, and \"it is  say that\" very skilled Mage can cast a spell without ceremony or with an impercetible one.
The environnement should give also bonus/malus as you explainded it.
The last thing is that the Mage is able to use his own energy(stamina,hp,age ...) in order to help the casting of the spell.  However if the spell is miss-casted, the draw back are worse. This kind of spell is usually called \"dark\" or \"forbidden\".

PS: Feelings and devotion to the god related are also factors.

[zanzibar]

I still think that higher level dark way spells should involve some sort of sacrifice to HP.... characters should even be able to become Lichs if they choose to.  Undead characters would be cool.

[Draklar]

Originally posted by zanzibar
Undead characters would be cool.

If there would be a free pvp against them ;)

[darkw00t]

In real life a person wouldn\'t have a bowl of mana sitting next to him, he would use mental concentation though this a fantasy game, Zanzibar\'s idea of having a mix of pool for casting is good, there should also be a concentration bar as well so if your character isn\'t fully concentrating he might get put off or not do as much damage, some skills really require your magic ability like to summon something from nowhere or to fire a meteor though telekinisis or controlling an animal\'s mind would not need to need to use mana you would need mental concentration (mind abilities), but the use for mana should only be used on certain spells , there could be a spell where you use your own blood causing 5 or 10 dmg to you and pouring over a animal which you control which bites the opponent to bite him to do damage and rabies (hehe).

[Draklar]

Mana is always needed to cast spells. The only question is whether it should be an outer or inner force.
Mana is the force of changes. As long as a spell involves changes, mana is the first thing needed for a spell to work.