An Invitation to all Guild Leaders

[zanzibar]

Guppy, there is no way that you can say that your rules encourage role play.  That\'s simply innacurate, and it shows that you haven\'t been really paying attention to the criticisms of your idea.

Playing dirty, being stabbed in the back or murdered, when does right, is just as valid RP as being nice to eachother all day.

[r.guppy]

I wil try to anser your question,were i can.

Originally posted by Semper

1: An Invitation to all Guild Leaders.
I want no were else but in this place, can guild leaders have talk private, and be able to see all responses.

(for clarity, there is nowhere to talk and see who sent what, but on here)

2: ME think this was talk on getting a common consciences on how to RP a duel.

(Again for clarity, an attempt to make duels more fun instead of challenge - decline/accept, not a work-around to PvP. Even this was catered for in the proposals)

3: Me no under stand war talk?

(As was stated this was to be and is decided by guilds who want to fight each other, so all talk of war was not even meant to be in this discussion and was a clear attempt from those people who did not want this to happen, to kill this thread, and hey guess what; partly worked.)

4:This from other thread good valid against reason hope you mind not

Quote:
Not to the thought that there was a right and wrong way to duel, but to making more rules.

This is a matter of what is considered to be polite. But it cannot be allowed to become more than that. The endless rush in the forums, to make everything subject to rigid rules, stifles creativity.

1. There is RP that will require being impolite.

2. \"Hide and go Kill\" is too much fun, cannot be stopped, and the small disruption that a chase scene will bring, is attractive to Noobs, it shows them there is action to be had.

3. Similarly, a duel, loudly announced, and fought out of earshot but not out of view of the usual plaza gathering, perhaps on the other side of the fountain from Harnquist, would be a public spectacle, attractive to the newcomer and beneficial to PS.

I vote that this etiquette, \"A Duelling Code of Honor\" be published, as a book in the Library, to be specifically labeled as a guideline for those who are noble, and seek to follow the traditions of polite and honorable duelling.

It could then be taught to Noobs, by simply referring them to the Library. (Which needs a master catalog of titles, by the way.)

But do not ever call it a rule. Rules will be broken by all too many who have made breaking anything that is called a rule their sole mission.

You will get vastly more result than any rule will give you, if you simply say that this way of duelling is considered a noble and polite tradition and are disdainful of those who are ill-mannered.

Courtesy cannot be imposed upon the unwilling. You must lead by conspicuous example, and show how attractive it is to be elegant, instead.


The Dark Lady
Verrliit
end quote

5: Talk like this good for debate, point being get over your say nice.

(no need to get all off track to get your point accross that you do not want this)

6: Why you move after long time here?

(Out of curiosity, why did it take 10 days and over 100 posts to decide this did not belong in guilds but in wish list, and then closed. Then reopened in General Discussions)
(i am a friend helping him get his point across)

 Points.
 1: there is no where but here, and as the title was not respected had littel choice in matter of who posted.

 2: Yes it is a attempt to stop randem challenges by guild members, and encourage Role Play.

 3: The talk of war was first brought up as guild war, it was felt that that was best delt with by guilds involed, the rest in my opinion was a attemt to disrupt this post by non guild players for their own ends.

 4: Yes it was a good well thought out response, shame all dont do the same.

 5: Yes i agree no need to twist things as it only spoils things.

 6: Cant answer this sorry.  )

[r.guppy]

In answer to you zanzibar, I refer you to the post by Seytra, in Pips poll, as it it put far better than i could.

Anyway, I will certainly vote \"Yay\". These are, to me, first and foremost OOC, simply because the problem they are supposed to solve is completely OOC: the mindless, un-RP duelling everywhere that is cluttering up the chat window and looking and sounding just plain stupid. Thereby it removes all sense of realism and makes PS look like a duelling game.

I can\'t help but wonder why some think that reducing that is detrimental to RP. To be more specific, I fail to see how a challenge window, popping up randomly without any further notice, without you even knowing the sender except for the name that is stated in the chat window, could possibly be classified as RP.
As I have stated before, this is not RP, it is merely a sad try to phrase pure OOC PvP happiness as RP. RP is different, it requires a level of mutual, completely OOC, trust that is not attainable through any pop-up window.

Therefore, these points exist to govern the OOC conduct, with having the side-effect of increasing likelyhood to have actual RP, by simply requiring people to, in whatever form, talk.

There is no random duelling IC.
To be clear: characters may very well disregard these points. However, players won\'t. Or shouldn\'t, if they strive to be(come) good RPers. Therefore, even if a character disobeys the IC interpretation, the player of that character won\'t ignore the OOC convention. That\'s a major difference.

Like talking undesignated OOC vs. talking about something completely different yet IC in an IC discussion. Second is RP, first is not. But I disgress.

Whether or not they will or should become IC law is of no importance to my decision (though I think they should eventually become, in part, IC law, as it is really natural). They solve an OOC problem and they are OOC. And I vote for them, completely OOC. Yay.

 )

[zanzibar]

i) stay out of the arena
ii) filter combat messages out of the chat
iii) set challenge to auto-decline


Once you do all this, I really don\'t see what the big deal is.  I don\'t even see much random duelling at harniquist anymore, I only see it in the arena.

[r.guppy]

Now this is interesting why should someone have to do that.

i) stay out of the arena
ii) filter combat messages out of the chat
iii) set challenge to auto-decline
 

 Be denied training in arena, both practical and physical, and good loot and PP.
 Go through hassle of filter combat messages out of the chat.
 O no we finally agree help set challenge to auto-decline.

 and your reply to this in Pips post, to Seytra.
 

 Quote:
Originally posted by ramlambmoo
Quote:
There is no random duelling IC.

What if your character likes randommly attacking people? Its conceivable, especially if you were Chaotic Evil. You\'re just making a generalisation because of the behavior of some people.

Absolutely not, no. Please read on.
Quote:
Originally posted by ramlambmoo
Quote:
Or shouldn\'t, if they strive to be(come) good RPers.

Thats your opinion, that it is required that you must follow these rules to be in character.

Also not, the distinct diffrence is IC and OOC, as I\'ll try to expres in the end.
Quote:
Originally posted by ramlambmoo
Quote:
Therefore, even if a character disobeys the IC interpretation, the player of that character won\'t ignore the OOC convention.

How are you to simultaneously obey these rules OOC but disobey them IC? Using the example of the theif or brigand again, are you to walk up to someone and OOC ask them what their skill level is, whether you want magic in a duel, etc, stand around for them to reply and then start a fight? To me, that breaks the realism more, and defeats the entire purpose.

Yes, absolutely. When I receive a random duelling request, I am always going to ignore it. I know that a true RPer will never just send a duelling request. Instead, they will state that they have an IC reason to attack you. In almost all cases, you will know the reason or that there is one.
You won\'t necessarily need to be so really specific about things in that case, but the general idea remains, for the simple reason that while your char might be very high in level compared to mine (or vice-versa), this difference might be due to a whole lot of factors that are entirely OOC. It is this problem of the actual levels being 100% RL related and 0% RP related that makes the duelling system almost inherently unusable for IC fights. These are better RP\'d instead of fought, which has the added benefit of allowing a lot more interesting battles, though that also requires a high level of discipline on both sides.

If, however, you use the duelling system for RP, then you must make sure that the ensuing fight will actually have some realistic resemblance of the RP of both players.

The effort to make sure that your \"target\" knows that you are IC, and a trustworthy RPer (OOC, not IC, mind you!) will usually be what counts in whether or not a duel will be accepted or not.

Even when you\'re chaotic evil and mad, you will not simply send a challenge to someone OOC-ly. Instead, you will RP that, if your wish to fight is actually IC and not OOC jerkiness. Also, you would make sure t5hat you only attack people of whom you are sure they also are IC, _and_ you would also make sure that the situation they RP actually gives an opportunity for you to attack. In almost no way would you manage to randomly attack someone who just moments ago RP\'d \"/me looks around warily\".

The scene would then be something like this:

Madman: *giggles silently, looking at Victim*
Victim:
Madman: *draws the dagger and moves closer, stifling the giggles*
Victim: *is still not suspicious*
Madman: *suddenly jumps forward to stab Victim*
Victim: *is caught by surprise and barely manages to evade the first blow and assumes a defensive position*

Only now is the duelling request to be sent!

Also, since the plaza is IC-ly properly guarded, you would then have to RP beign arrested if you get caught, which you will also have to RP. In no way can you just duel and walk off. These are the problems that are most easily \"overlooked\" by those that \"RP chaotic / evil chars\". I am very much inclined that it is ignoring on purpose, but I might be wrong. If I were wrong, though, then all the trouble Monketh was having with trying to RP a guard division would never have arisen, so it is fair to assume that almost all of those \"RP\"ers are merely out to very OOC-ly do some PvP.

Edit: And even then, out of courtesy, you would likely relocate the actual fight to somewhere else. IC you wouldn\'t move locations, but OOC-ly you would, as convention to keep the plaza clean./Edit

I sincerely hope that this explains things.

 
this comment to Seytra post.

 

Seytra, the battle you described was colourful and it would work. HOWEVER, I strongly believe that such things as arrests, protection, revenge, and murder should be built into the very mechanics of Planeshift itself. But for now, the system you described is the best we can do.
 

 \"does that sound to you like it sounds to me\"? it would work? But for now, the system you described is the best we can do?

[Nikodemus]

Originally posted by r.guppy

Originally posted by Zanzibar
i) stay out of the arena

Be denied training in arena, both practical and physical, and good loot and PP.

This has made me think about somethink. Some people gets irritated by the random dueling in different places, especially Hydlaa.
Are the same people disturbed by the random killing of Gladiators, Mercenaries, Rogues and such ?
And, are the same people killing them, in the way like many others do?
Now, if you think from your char perspective, all the NPCs are same as players. So... how it come that so great part of this community is trying to rp and care only about dueling beatwen players?

I\'m just wondering, not trying to accuse someone for somethink.

[r.guppy]

In the arena they are there to fight, that is there Job to fight, i think it would be hard to role play a fight with them, as they have limited speech.
 As for meeting with them out side again you fight them or run.
 Just my thoughts.

[Askr]

Originally posted by r.guppy
Now this is interesting why should someone have to do that.

Originally posted by Zanzibar
i) stay out of the arena
ii) filter combat messages out of the chat
iii) set challenge to auto-decline

Originally Posted by r.guppy
 Be denied training in arena, both practical and physical, and good loot and PP.
 Go through hassle of filter combat messages out of the chat.
 O no we finally agree help set challenge to auto-decline.

 

Someone should do that for the same reason that you believe someone should not duel in the Plaza or in Hydlaa altogether.  You wish to limit the enjoyment of PS for others so that your gaming experience is more to your liking, but you do not think that you should limit yours so they may enjoy theirs.  So much for courtesy and respect.

Training, Good Loot and PP are all OOC issues as Seytra so quickly pointed out.  Unless you are interested in maxing skills it shouldn\'t really matter to RP.  I mean after all if you are a good and true RPer then you should be able to come up with an RP reason why you aren\'t going into the arena.  If you can\'t do that then it doesn\'t really matter because you aren\'t RPing anyway.  If you feel the need to go gain levels then you should be able to RP the dangers you are facing, that is if you are a good and true RPer.  If you are just going in there to gain levels, then I doubt you are all that concerned with your RP since little to no RP goes on in the Arena anyway.  Instead it is a lot of spawn camping and spawn camping is never RP.

[zanzibar]

Training and Loot are both COMPLETELY in character.  It\'s ridiculous to maintain otherwise.


Edit 1:  

Originally posted by r.guppy
Now this is interesting why should someone have to do that.

i) stay out of the arena
ii) filter combat messages out of the chat
iii) set challenge to auto-decline
 

 Be denied training in arena, both practical and physical, and good loot and PP.
 Go through hassle of filter combat messages out of the chat.
 O no we finally agree help set challenge to auto-decline.

The arena is for fighting.  The arena is for duelling.  Deal with it.  We go to the arena to fight so that we don\'t bug the people chatting near harniquist.


Edit 2:  Being annoyed, being scared, being hurt, and being KILLED is all a part of role-playing games.

[Verrliit]

Originally posted by Askr
spawn camping is never RP.

It is not the camping part of it, that is not RP.

If you were to run a route from one end of all the maps, to the other, there would be no RP inherent in a single kill.

Unless you count the trivia that an NPC might have wandered away from it\'s spawn point, or you find virtue in wasting time running.

To say that camping is wrong, is as foolish as saying you should not train strength.  There is an advantage to both, and a savings in time as you negotiate the mechanics of the world.

This is a feature of PS.  Take it for granted, and RP around it.

Watching to see what loot a spawn will drop next, and for a group of players, gambling the roll to see who gets it, is one of the few diversions that the Devs have given us.

But then, you probably don\'t like bingo either.


Verrliit

[Karyuu]

Originally posted by Verrliit
To say that camping is wrong, is as foolish as saying you should not train strength.  There is an advantage to both, and a savings in time as you negotiate the mechanics of the world.

Sadly, no matter what arguments anyone may try to make, currently camping is completely OOC :) There is an advantage to exploiting various bugs in the game too (not that I\'m saying camping is such), but advantages may not all be roleplayable, or fair.

[semper]

I am lost for words.
 
 

 zanzibar

Training and Loot are both COMPLETELY in character. It\'s ridiculous to maintain otherwise.


Edit 1:

Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by r.guppy
Now this is interesting why should someone have to do that.

Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 
i) stay out of the arena
ii) filter combat messages out of the chat
iii) set challenge to auto-decline

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Be denied training in arena, both practical and physical, and good loot and PP.
Go through hassle of filter combat messages out of the chat.
O no we finally agree help  set challenge to auto-decline.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



The arena is for fighting. The arena is for duelling. Deal with it. We go to the arena to fight so that we don\'t bug the people chatting near harniquist.


Edit 2: Being annoyed, being scared, being hurt, and being KILLED is all a part of role-playing games.
 

 We Agree again

[Verrliit]

Originally posted by Karyuu

Originally posted by Verrliit
To say that camping is wrong, is as foolish as saying you should not train strength.  There is an advantage to both, and a savings in time as you negotiate the mechanics of the world.

Sadly, no matter what arguments anyone may try to make, currently camping is completely OOC There is an advantage to exploiting various bugs in the game too (not that I\'m saying camping is such), but advantages may not all be roleplayable, or fair.

Karyuu Sweetheart, I apologize for being unclear.

My point is:

Camping will exist as long as spawn points do not move out of sight to an unpredictable position with every kill. (And a hunter can\'t talk while moving.)  

It does not matter if you like camping, or whether you can RP while doing it.

Originally posted by Verrliit
This is a feature of PS. Take it for granted, and RP around it.

Forgive me dear, but I really think that arguing about it is a complete waste of time.


Verrliit

[Karyuu]

I did misunderstand what you meant, and for that I apologize. However, if I may make both a formal and personal request: the \"dears\" and \"sweethearts\" are too patronizing for my taste :) Best use them with others.

[r.guppy]

I think this is a good resin for the proposal.
From Talads post 0.3.012 ready.
- Penalties now increase with each decline:
1) 1 min lockout
2) 5 min + warning
3) 10 min + 10 advisor point fine + 10 duel point fine, if duel spam + death
4) 30 point fine(s) + death + kick from server
- Penalties expire with gameplay time, and can be lowered by getting an accept from a player with no penalties and a enough advisor points.
- Penalty level is saved to the player\'s account entry in the database, so repeat offenders can\'t escape it. (relog resets to 3rd level)   )