Thieves

[Pheonix]

My point was to suggest that while we are coming up with thief abilities , we should also be coming up with ways to ballance it.

I thought at first maybe my previous post wasnt clear on that matter but after reading and then re-reading it, it appears to get that point across. But hey maybe I\'m wrong.

[Sylk]

In one sense, even with all the \'perks\' that are mentioned in this thread, it is sorta self balancing.

As was already pointed out, this is a classless system.  Characters are based on skill points.  If you devote the points to picking pockets or poison, you will suck at combat and armour.  Balance is somewhat easier to achieve with a skill point system.

Counter skills for non/anti-thieves could be included, like heightened awareness(detect sneaking people), sixth sense(chance to negate backstabs), fast reflexes(ability to dodge traps), strong metabolism (reduced poison effectivness).

Furthermore, I would limit pick pocket skills to either money, or small and reletively trivial objects.  Certainly no quest items should be easily stolen.

Sylk

[Pheonix]

On the same note of the point system being self-ballancing then wont players who spend their points on anti-thivery skills be comprimising their combat armor skills ?

Well the reality of the situation is just as in the real world not everyone can be protected,
outside of the thieves you have two classes of players.
1) Those who cut their losses with the thieves and train on combat and armor
2) Those who spend time countering thieves abillities, who loose time on what couldve been spent training combat and armor.



Something else thats been bothering me....If I want to play a thief and I become a master of it, why should I have to limit myself to spare change, and trivial items?

Its quite an iteresting situation....maybe the solution can be found in spending money.
IE protect your home with the great npc\'s spell of screwupathief.

[Sylk]

Another point that has been neglected here is the idea that this is NOT a single player game.  It is meant for groups of players or guilds of players.  Anti-thieves become more usefull to groups the more a threat thieves become.  Sorta like monsters make healers handy.

I do agree with you though Phoenix.  Something would certainly have to be done to balance the whole thing.  Its just that this would be a truly unique feature as about the closest to thieves I have ever seen in an MMORPG is assassins. (which btw, is what I would be, an assasin, not a thief)

Sylk

--btw, I love the screwupathief spell idea.

[Pheonix]

Well Im thinking that the further you progress the more cash youll have to spend on thief deterants, so maybe the ballance can be found there.
Or maybe theres someplace that you can put a select number of items to protect them from being stolen by a master thief.

A master thief should be able to steal from newbies all day long without being caught. But at that point the little money theyll make from newbies is pointless.

No big chances no big gains right......
So instead you break into an Uber Fighters house who happens to have the money to spend on traps/wards/etc
as a thief you dont know what your walking into unless your extremely dedicted and decide to case out a person and their dwelling.

So if your thieving skills arent good enough to detect what been left for you your screwed, if they are then you have a chance of disarming them , you fail your screwed.

Maybe a mini quest for newbies to make cash could be to catch a thief in the act of robbing a persons house....thief is spotted in the act thief is screwed....this adds the complexity of getting away as well.

Dunno how the \"town watch\" would work exactly I\'ll give it more thought later when I am rested

[athelas]

In some games (wotmud) there is a justice clan for each major area/city.  A thief who steals from NPCs there is attacked by said NPC, resulting in a yell and possibly a warrant, meaning that the justice clan/guard NPCs will attack the thief on sight.

However, this is more of a level game than a RP game (though greater RP elements would be great, IMHO) so I don\'t know if anyone would want to form a justice clan, given the restrictions to spending most of one\'s time in one area.

Here\'s an idea...high level players, who have more or less plateaued in levels, form the clans.  Because they are strong, they only need a few members per city.  There are auto-warrants (so the justices don\'t have to be online all of the time).  The more thieves there are (and the more skilled said thieves are) the more fun for the justice clan.  Positive feedback system.

Ideas?

[Vengeance]

Sylk,

I recognize that these items are a \"wish list\", but Pheonix\'s point is basically correct that your proposals will have better chances of being accepted if you also propose the balancing mechanisms at the same time.

Based on that wishlist, I think thieves sound VERY fun to play, but we must offset that fun or we will have nothing but thieves and victims in the game.

If high-level thieves can steal easily from newbies, even small amounts, they will just for the fun of screwing with the newbies.  (If you don\'t believe this, you haven\'t read our forums long enough to encounter the jerks.)

Maybe the first step to really designing this path is to figure out the game purpose of a job like this rather than their specific abilities.  For example, maybe thieves exist in the game to provide an alternative to simple \"dragon killing\" quests in the high-end game.  If a quest party has the choice of killing or sneaking, that might greatly enrich the tactics of the game.

Comments?

-Venge

[Princess Aelya]

Originally posted by Vengeance
If high-level thieves can steal easily from newbies, even small amounts, they will just for the fun of screwing with the newbies.  (If you don\'t believe this, you haven\'t read our forums long enough to encounter the jerks.)

thats why thieves should only be able to steal from people that have surpassed a set skilll level. i know this game wont be level based but perhaps there could be another way to tell how skillful one is. maybe all of your skill points could add up and that would be your overall \"skill level\". that way thieves couldnt pick on the newbies.

[Keldorn]

hmm, that could work.
The skill level would have to vary depending on how skilled the thief is. Cause a set skill level at which thieves could rob from you wouldn\'t make sense. Just imagine you yourself, as a thief, still being a newbie. And the only ppl you could rob from are like ten skill levels (for lack of a better term) higher then you. That wouldn\'t be fair, and you would never be able to advance in that skill.

So if you would make the skill level vary, and you still don\'t want newbies to fall prey to thieves. Then you should make it so that newbie thieves could never steal from other newbies, thus making it very hard for a newbie thief to steal (atleast in the beginning) and advance. This could be a good or bad thing, depending on how you look at it. (less ppl would want to be a thief, since it\'s so hard. Thus making it more rewarding for those who do succeed.)

And if you follow this thru, a really advanced thief could never pickpocket someone who would be a real easy target for him, since the skill level at which he can rob from ppl has also moved up a notch. Thus making it always a challenge, and less annoying for the other ppl in the game.

[Velamos]

I know i am new and all but im my own opinion thieves shouldn\'t be able to steal from PC\'s. There should be plenty of NPC\'s for thieves to pillage and shops to plunder to make em happy

[David_HD]

If players can\'t respond when stolen from, (ie PVP combat, though maybe you just knock them out and drag them to the authorities), theives shouldn\'t be able to steal from players.

[Sylk]

I FULLY agree with you on that one David.

Sylk

[Tearlach t'an Ailech fin Leros]

The problem with letting thieves steal from pc:s is that it is a PVP action and if you have that player versus player action in you must atleast add the ability to counter the thief pickpocketing, and a system where you can only counter a pickpocketing (and don\'t forget that the thief just can log out, directly after stealing, plus how long time till the player would not be able to retaliate, ? m, 1 m, 1 h, a year, never?) and then the system would not longer make sense, you can\'t waylay or rob someone but you can pickpocket, you can\'t strike someone down who has been standing for an half hour at your side cause your detect thief ability is not high enough and his pickpocket ability isn\'t high enough either, thus we are making way to pking and then when we have added this (for gameplay) we can just watch and wait for the pkingers to turn this game from a roleplaying game till a leveling game (remember it\'s not the gamemechanics that makes the game it\'s the player).

[Aela]

I just play daoc and fell in lofe with the infiltrator class as I always loved the rogue-style....but a big problem in daoc is: what can a rogue do for the group ?
As I hope that PS will implement nice dungeons with badly trapped doors and nice chests the trapp/lockpick skill is a necessety.....but what can a rogue do in combat besides a onehit-backstab action...

he could sneak to a monster that wield weapons and steal this weapons  and throw it away in the distance so zje monster will have to fight some rounds without a weapon and looses effectivity in combat ...

then I hope that quests will get a nice place in PS .....campaigns would be nice...with factions where a thief can steal the most importent key or scroll or whatever  without angrying that faction...so that a rogue gives another chance of solving a quest so they are not only doable with kill und destroy tactics

problem with pvp-stealing : since the servers w?n?t be primary pvp servers, stealing PCs would cause disharmonie  ( although I like the idea of stealing people) and won?t be good for a nice clima on a server

there should be other oppurtunities for a thieve to show his bad side ....... trickery in gambling.....

but if PC stealing should be implemented then handle it with the looting-system daoc has....grey mobs give no loot...so newbies should be safed from stealing.
and at least stealing PCs schould only give a chance of  making fast money...not items

[Vengeance]

I might be able to support PvP stealing if a thief presses a button and then the other player has a certain amount of time (5 seconds or so) to \"catch\" him and press another key.  Then if he is in fact \"caught\" then the victim can hold the thief and the guards come running!  :-)

The 5 second time limit would vary depending on the skill level of the thief and the inventory slot he chooses to go after, pickpocket style.

What about that?

- Venge