Guild Size Control

[Ecolem]

Drey dont quote parts to make it look as if i dont like RP, read the rest. You do it a lot and its not good.

[Father Sengus]

Unfortunately the rp reason which you have given, lack connection with the game events. I know you gave it as example, but i just couldn\'t accept it as fully valid explanation.
It is just saddening that people sugesting things which reason is ooc, don\'t really try to come with fully proper rp explanation.
And it is exactly what is happening in all MMORPGs what i heard of a bit more and it is why i don\'t treat them as games where i can RP

I understand what you\'re saying and you\'re completely right. I agree that the ideal for RP would be to have IC rules but like I said, you cannot give an IC explanation to everything either.
The most IC explanation in this case would probably be that Sangwa (and others who believe they are losing members to mass-recruiting guilds) get a high position in politics and manage to implement these laws. Then the original reason for a change would be respected. Do you agree, Nicolem?

Drey dont quote parts to make it look as if i dont like RP, read the rest. You do it a lot and its not good.

Having read what you said, and what Drey said, he never said that you don\'t RP.
He said you\'re wrong when not seeing RP as prime element of PS, and I completely agree with him. It has been stated many times that this game is all about RP, and that people who are after powerleveling would be better off playing a hack n\' slash game.
Also, who came up with an idea shouldn\'t matter much in the end, since it\'s all for the good of the community
 
To Goland and Zanzibar who seem to be on the same track.

The point is, now you want to RP. You said you haven\'t leveled at all and concentrate on your guild. Guild taxes, guild management skills, and other things like that wouldn\'t allow you to do this. This is a perfect example of why adding these restrictions to guilds are the enemy of RPing.

I agree a lot in this post, but it\'s not just for the sake of it. I think you guys are making lots of good points.

Finally, a little idea. Even though it goes against Nikodemus idea of having OOC rules be born from IC needs.
In Ultima Online they have a skill cap system where players have 700 points to place on different skills. The skillcap for each skill is 100, meaning you can max 7 skills.
I heard about an upcoming system in PS where RM\'s would reward Roleplayers, though I don\'t know what the rewards would be yet.
Wouldn\'t it be possible to combine having skillcaps with RP rewards? So a person that does good RP is rewarded with his skill cap being raised a little. That would make powerlevelers become less skilled than RP:ers, no matter how much they train and probably encourage them to do RP.
RP:ers would also have to train their skills from time to time, but it wouldn\'t make them become powerlevers but rather better RP:ers. A player who has 0 skill in blacksmithing and is RP:ing a Master Blacksmith isn\'t a good RP:er. It\'s about having the skills to back up your talk.
Please let me know what you think about this idea...

[Pestilence]

hmm I\'ve been reading this thread and to be honost it sounds way to jelous of large guild. To frustrated that something doesn\'t work and blaming it on something with no proof it\'s the case.

At the moment I haven\'t seen a mass recruiting guild like Radiant Fate or Guardians of the Way. There are plenty of people running around without a guildtag. Now if you can\'t convince these people to join don\'t lash out to guilds that are larger but in your opinion not better then your own guild.

And when is something massrecruiting? I mean the Dragon Council was acused of this aswell. We grew fast and so we HAD to massrecruit.

Anyhow the measures I see so far wont discourage powerlevel guilds but would only make it impossible for RP guilds to exist. You will have money when you are a succesfull powerlevel guild. How much money will you have as a roleplaying guild with only people who don\'t level at all?

[Induane]

My idea didn\'t punish large guilds at all, in fact it would have made them profitable as long as a guild could maintain an active member list.  It was simply a way to encourage guild leaders to be ingame, running their guild, helping their members, and making it interesting to  RP and play so that maintaining your guild became self motivated.  Mass recruiting isn\'t worth anything if you have a guild of 150 persons and 145 of them are inactive or long gone. Whats the RP value in that?  Hey look at our list? It is really big! ... ummm wow cool.  Having a small ammount of money received per active player could make a large mass recruiting guild profitable for the guilds as long as they kept people active.  How does one do that - they remove players who are gone, and spend more time ingame trying to keep it interesting for their members whom they depend on for guild profit.  How is this bad for big guilds?

[Nikodemus]

Originally posted by Father Sengus

Unfortunately the rp reason which you have given, lack connection with the game events. I know you gave it as example, but i just couldn\'t accept it as fully valid explanation.
It is just saddening that people sugesting things which reason is ooc, don\'t really try to come with fully proper rp explanation.
And it is exactly what is happening in all MMORPGs what i heard of a bit more and it is why i don\'t treat them as games where i can RP

I understand what you\'re saying and you\'re completely right. I agree that the ideal for RP would be to have IC rules but like I said, you cannot give an IC explanation to everything either.
The most IC explanation in this case would probably be that Sangwa (and others who believe they are losing members to mass-recruiting guilds) get a high position in politics and manage to implement these laws. Then the original reason for a change would be respected. Do you agree, Nicolem?

You spell and write it \"Nikodemus\" x)
And your second explanation sounds better.
But still, i would like to see as few as possible ideas based on ooc reasons, because these simply breaks rp at some of its point. I find the idea behind this thread not worth of another ooc solution with ic imitating solution.
The idea maybe is good, but not for rp game.

[Father Sengus]

Haha sorry about that. Thought you\'d heard about the fusion between Nikodemus and Ecolem
My bad...hehe

[Induane]

But still, i would like to see as few as possible ideas based on ooc reasons, because these simply breaks rp at some of its point.

Not necessarily.  We have rules for naming for ooc reasons.  IC there is no reason someone couldn\'t be named Eiffel Tower, because no one IC should know of the irl tower and people have freewill to give names.  Yet we have these rules to encourage role play and keep down on distraction from real life so that we can easily find ourselves lost in the world of PS.  OOC rules are necessary in order to keep a persistant world realistic and believable.  Not everyone is equiped with an uber imagination capible or rationalizing ooc things in character or they lack the practive.  Good OOC rules promote RP, not break it.

[Sangwa]

That\'s an absolutely horrible idea. Skills like that should be naturalistic in nature. If the player is good at it, then the character will be good at it. Why? Because it\'s human interaction. It\'s your personality, and your ability to organize and lead. You can\'t just express something like that with a stat!

What about the Charisma and Intelligence stats? I really don\'t think you\'ve got a point there.
Even if it can\'t control mass-recruiting (curse them resourceful powerlevelers!) it would be realistic to have a skill that depended on your charisma to limit your guild size. It\'s not that realistic to have some one with low charisma leading a big guild.

Anyway, what I truely think will work better regarding mass-recruiting is Shorty\'s idea: to impossibilitate new Accounts\' characters to join a guild until a week ends. This way they\'ll have plenty of time to be explained what roleplay is, to rethink their character in a roleplay way and then join the appropriate guild or become a freelancer.



Or maybe they\'ll join my underground network of new players who didn\'t join mass-recruiting guilds. And then I\'ll order them to assassinate Zanzibar.
:O Did I just say that out loud? :O

[Nikodemus]

Originally posted by Induane

But still, i would like to see as few as possible ideas based on ooc reasons, because these simply breaks rp at some of its point.

Not necessarily.  We have rules for naming for ooc reasons.  IC there is no reason someone couldn\'t be named Eiffel Tower, because no one IC should know of the irl tower and people have freewill to give names.  Yet we have these rules to encourage role play and keep down on distraction from real life so that we can easily find ourselves lost in the world of PS.  OOC rules are necessary in order to keep a persistant world realistic and believable.  Not everyone is equiped with an uber imagination capible or rationalizing ooc things in character or they lack the practive.  Good OOC rules promote RP, not break it.

The thing with these ooc rp promoting rules is they indeed promote them, but in rather ooc way, in ic way they often do the opposite at some point, no matter how much we try to make them ic.
Another reason why i don\'t like these. In theory if they both promote and dispromote, we loose nothing. So i could agree on that, seeing as others want it because of their reasons.
But i want the world to be as much ic as possible, World=ic_rules+ooc_rules. Increasing one we decrease another.

[Induane]

World=ic_rules+ooc_rules

I\'m not sure about my math hehe, but your math equation only works if \"World\" never changes - i.e. is not a variable.  SInce that is not the case, then increaseing one doesn\'t necessarily decrease the other.   ... ok I\'m kinda joking on the math problem

  Still, I don\'t think that that equation really proves anything other than an opinion.  Some OOC rules help, some hurt, its the nature of things.  Just because a rule is created because of an OOC need doesn\'t automatically make it bad for the world - its not a given that an ooc rule subtracts from IC things.  There is a creation fee of 20000 trias, which is basically an ooc event described in IC terms.  It was done to prevent guild creation spam.  That doesn\'t mean the rule is perfect, but there isn\'t anything inherently wrong with a rule like that.  They exist - RP\'rs will continue on as if its completely normal, incorporating it into their RP so its not OOC at all to the world.


I thought some more and here is what I think is fair.


Considering it takes 20K to start a guild, it is reasonable that a guild leader also generate revinue from its guild.

Breakdown:

10 Trias per day for each active member that day.  
 - a member has an active day if they are online for 1 hr or more.

0 Trias per day for each player that is not online that day.  

-15 Trias per day for every character deemed \"inactive\"
 - An inactive player is a player who has not had 1 active day for more than 30 days.

* days refers to real life times, not the ps clock which is tough to sync to.  A guild leader does not get trias for his/her online time.

A guild leader may fall into debt.  If his/her debt reaches -20k the guild is automatically disbanded.  Debt transfers to other characters upon transfer of guild leardership. When the guild disbands the debt factor is reduced to 0, but only if it automatically disbands.  If a guild is disbanded by the leader while in debt, the debt remains.


As for IC explanation, several excellent ones were suggested that work fine.

Large guilds who can maintain active players will make good money.  Maintaining a large guild is more difficult however.  A active power leveler can keep his guild out of debt easily for a while, but eventually he will quit playing.  Powerleveling guilds will collapse eventually.  

any corrections/suggestions/uberjigglyotherstuff?

[Reor]

*shoots a load of uberjigglyotherstuff*

Excuse me, but I fail to see how many of these suggestions promote RP. Such as stat/skill related guild size  :rolleyes:  or fees for a growing number of members (though I got the impression that idea got already discarded).

I think the discussion here hasn\'t taken into account that PS is growing all the time and in the future (when it\'s somewhat \"finished\" ^^) there ought to be guilds that reach throughout whole Yliakum and these guilds most likely will have hundreds of members. So penalizing for a high member count or trying to limit the size of guilds doesn\'t sound reasonable to me.

Induane, I agree on these highlighted parts:

Originally posted by Induane
My idea didn\'t punish large guilds at all, in fact it would have made them profitable as long as a guild could maintain an active member list. It was simply a way to encourage guild leaders to be ingame, running their guild, helping their members,  and making it interesting to RP and play so that maintaining your guild became self motivated.

but what quarantees you have that guild leaders will try to keep their members by motivating RP and not by other, more OOC ways of fun? IMHO none. You can not force someone to RP  

I think Shorty\'s idea is right on the money, in my first week of playing PS I accepted a random guild invite and another week or two later the whole guild was gone. Why didn\'t somebody stop me?  8o
The other suggestions come out to me more as a drug for the sympton and not as cure for the disease.

As goland said on the first page:

Originally posted by goland
I propose that instead of worrying about guild sizes we cut the problem down at the roots.

Upon starting the game, newbies should be presented overwhelmingly with the need to do RPing. Whether this is through a quest or whatever. I believe that this would be a step forward to grooming players for RPing so that they can control guilds themselves without the need for any enforcement from game mechanics.

I\'d say PS needs a good tutorial system which teaches the young ones the game mechanics and basics BUT also advices them to wait and select a guild that fits their character the most and stresses that the main focus of PS is on RPing *points to the above quote*

Hmm hmm hmm... I guess that\'s all I have to say for now. Good day to all  )

[Father Sengus]

I\'d say PS needs a good tutorial system which teaches the young ones the game mechanics and basics BUT also advices them to wait and select a guild that fits their character the most and stresses that the main focus of PS is on RPing

Well, here I go making commercial about the Shelter again, but I really believe it is the sollution to all this. The only real backside is that it will not be able to take care of all the newbies.
Here\'s a thread where the idea has been discussed a little. http://www.planeshift3d.com/wbboard/thread.php?threadid=21361&boardid=11&styleid=3
And yes, we are still looking for somebody to help us make a website, though a simple one this time.

[Reor]

That is great what you are doing Sengus  
But there is that simple fact that not every new player can get personal guidance from other players , hence the need for an IG tutorial system also. This type of mechanic system could never be as good as personal tutoring of course, but atleast it\'s something. I\'d really be pleased to see less of the \"i\'m new what to do\"-questions at the plaza X)

[Karyuu]

I\'d like to say that once things are more stable and there is more to explain to newbies than \"This is a game in early development so not many things are available,\" NPCs will be able to help out a ton more, we will have a better guide on the website, and the like.

Besides that, newbie tutorials have been discussed many times before in the Wishlist :)

[zanzibar]

Originally posted by Ecolem
Second you and Karyuu seem to have this Role Playing business WAY over the top. You guys need to relax with the RP...not everyone likes it!

There is only one emoticon to respond to this!

>.>



i)  Planeshift is an RP game.  While you can help train others, it should (read: must) be in character.  Fundamentally though, Planeshift IS all about RP by intention of the people who have made it.  That means no leet-speak, and no honouring of people just because they have max-stats.

ii)  When I was more active, I was widely considered to be a powerleveller.  Before you resort to ad hominem attacks in the future, I advise that you wait until you know a little bit more about who you\'re addressing.