Author Topic: I want to know. What do the devs have planned to save this game?  (Read 10193 times)

zabeal

  • Hydlaa Citizen
  • *
  • Posts: 369
    • View Profile
(No subject)
« Reply #15 on: January 29, 2006, 11:08:08 pm »
I would have to disagree with those saying long time players who leave are a problem. I have considered myself to be playing PlaneShift for years, even tho I have spent very little of that time in game. There is no pressing need to keep playing, to level up as in most games, and no fear of being left behind by friends. I can come back anytime I want, and have done many, many times already. That is one of the parts of PlaneShift that I treasure more then anything else.

Lux perpetua luceat eis

BlackAcre

  • Hydlaa Resident
  • *
  • Posts: 137
    • View Profile
(No subject)
« Reply #16 on: January 29, 2006, 11:08:50 pm »
Dave is on target here.  This is pre-alpha.  It isn\'t back of the envelope new, but it\'s nowhere near the stage where it needs \"saving\".  

I do wonder how they\'ll afford all the bandwidth if this game ever does get popular.  I was under the impression that these things were expensive operations.  

I also think it is good to talk about potential pitfalls.  Having no story-arc that drives the \"universe\" is not the norm for MMORPGs, but if you take most of them for example, you\'ll realise that the major story-arcs are usually ignored, if not downright meaningless (no one is ever supposed to win, so beside creating PvP, they have small value).  I\'m hoping that this world gets large enough that you create your own story-lines by simply travelling from one place to the next.  THAT is pretty utopic, though.  Oh what I\'d give for something like Neverwinter Nights implemented on a MMORPG scale.  More than, say, free, that\'s for sure.

Talad

  • Administrator
  • Hydlaa Notable
  • *
  • Posts: 822
    • View Profile
(No subject)
« Reply #17 on: January 29, 2006, 11:16:26 pm »
That\'s for sure a good topic, even if it\'s expressed in a negative way.

A mmorpg is made of many things, and surely one is the \"aim\" of the game. Each of us (players) can have different aims, like socializing, roleplaying, checking what new technology (fog, shaders, etc...) PlaneShift can run on your PC, etc...

But these are goals of the player, not the ones of the character.

About the aim of your character here are a number of points:

- We discussed the \"aim\" many times in the past and come up with a number of points. We have plans for providing a lot of inspiration for your characters to have something to do in the world of PlaneShift. We care about the problem, but it\'s still a bit early to enable it fully
- A character can search fame and popularity by creating new powerful guilds that will increase in wealth and members, creating powerful alliances with NPC-managed guilds and merchants and with other guilds
- A guild or group can explore the Stone Labyrinth trying to find if there is a world \"outside\" the walls of Yliakum
- The hydlaa city and other main cities have to fight for the incoming invasions from the Labyrinths. New creatures, new techniques, new tunnels are dig to attack the city and no one is safe without brave heroes to defend the cities. (In the future you can expect to find cities conquered by evil NPCs)
- A char can decide to become expert in many different areas, like a certain way of magic, or about the death realm, or about ancient lore and create a shop/activity about it
- Many high social positions will be available to expert players, like vigesimi, octarchs, guild masters, etc... reaching that position will be hard but doable.
- The game will have a main plot unfolding. I cannot say much about it atm, but surely it will be a big \"goal\" for all the characters.  Some major quests that will expand the game and will change it permanently.
- We want to introduce many abilities for characters to change/edit the world, with jobs, creating new items, or building new houses.

As you may see there will be plenty of goals or aim for your character, we just need these new features to be created. Those are surely not ready yet.

In the meatime you can debate about what is the next thing you want to see, but you cannot say there will be nothing to do. A RPG is the most evoluted game ever, we just need PlaneShift to be a full RPG like we want.

Mezasa

  • Hydlaa Resident
  • *
  • Posts: 118
    • View Profile
    • tefrik.net
(No subject)
« Reply #18 on: January 30, 2006, 12:24:43 am »
What exactly is the business model for this, though?  How on earth can you really expect to have literally thousands upon thousands of people, all hosted on servers with no advertising?  I mean, so far everything is good, but what about when there is a need for like the 4th, 5th, or 20th server?  Then what?

Servers are by no means cheap (or the bandwidth that you need to use them), so what\'s the game plan here?  All donations?  That will get stale over time ?(
X2 3800+ (2.5GHz) | eVGA 7900GT (500/1500) | 2GB XMS (210MHz)
Audigy2 ZS | A8N SLI Premium | 250GB SATAII | TT Tsunami

Vjorin

  • Traveller
  • *
  • Posts: 34
    • View Profile
(No subject)
« Reply #19 on: January 30, 2006, 12:34:55 am »
The beauty of a game like this, is things come along.  With more players, means more passion, and more people who want to help in the support of the game.  Donations I would think would be a possibility.  

The open source community has already expressed a good deal of interest in PlaneShift, considering how far the game has come already with it being free and open source.

...and why do you even worry about it?  Leave it up to the PlaneShift team to worry about it...unless you have a server to donate. ;-)

zanzibar

  • Forum Legend
  • *
  • Posts: 6523
    • View Profile
(No subject)
« Reply #20 on: January 30, 2006, 01:35:43 am »
Quote
Originally posted by Mezasa
What exactly is the business model for this, though?  How on earth can you really expect to have literally thousands upon thousands of people, all hosted on servers with no advertising?  I mean, so far everything is good, but what about when there is a need for like the 4th, 5th, or 20th server?  Then what?

Servers are by no means cheap (or the bandwidth that you need to use them), so what\'s the game plan here?  All donations?  That will get stale over time ?(




People will donate in various ways because it\'s populist in nature.
Quote from: Raa
Immaturity is FTW.

BlackAcre

  • Hydlaa Resident
  • *
  • Posts: 137
    • View Profile
(No subject)
« Reply #21 on: January 30, 2006, 09:28:53 am »
Quote
Originally posted by Vjorin
The beauty of a game like this, is things come along.  With more players, means more passion, and more people who want to help in the support of the game.  Donations I would think would be a possibility.  

The open source community has already expressed a good deal of interest in PlaneShift, considering how far the game has come already with it being free and open source.

...and why do you even worry about it?  Leave it up to the PlaneShift team to worry about it...unless you have a server to donate. ;-)


Sticking our heads in the sand isn\'t going to answer the question.  Donations can seriously expect to keep up with overhead as the game gets larger?  That\'s hard to believe.

The question is an honestly good one being as people can dedicate a large amount of time to MMOGs.  Spending three years beta testing a game to see it disappear overnight is kind of horrifying to ponder.  Assuaging those fears is reasonable to expect from whatever comprises \"the team\" in any event.

AryHann

  • Veteran
  • *
  • Posts: 1244
  • WonderWoman
    • View Profile
(No subject)
« Reply #22 on: January 30, 2006, 09:37:15 am »
I really really believe that even if the development might appear slow, PS will not disappear overnight, especially considering the efforts of everybody in making the game as nice as possible.

I believe that the team has gone through bad and good periods, but like for everything, the show has gone on and we still believe in this game.
AryHann

http://www.reflex.lth.se/culture/annelov - Virtual Annelöv -
Engine Dep. - One of Talad's Angels - Aka ww & Ahrijani's Goddess

lynx_lupo

  • Veteran
  • *
  • Posts: 1431
  • Sorbus aria!
    • View Profile
    • Linux pri nas
(No subject)
« Reply #23 on: January 30, 2006, 10:34:43 am »
No FLOSS project dies, they just sometimes hibernate for some (indefinite) amount of time. And PS is already big enough to be over that stage, there is always something going on.

And as a FLOSS project, a lot of hackers play it and a lot of server offers come up. One dedicated server can deal with A LOT of players, so there are more mirror offers than needed (talking about the game server).

So yeah, as was already stated, the only people that have problems are the ones that take PS as a full(time) game already. As with everything, patience is key. :)
« Last Edit: January 30, 2006, 10:35:15 am by lynx_lupo »
"Amor sceleratus habendi"- Ovid
"First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you eat them." -Godzilla

Proglin

  • Hydlaa Citizen
  • *
  • Posts: 460
    • View Profile
(No subject)
« Reply #24 on: January 31, 2006, 05:53:18 pm »
One hing you missed about the entire game... It is not the game that is fun, but it is the players that create the atmosphere in-game.... Try and think of something interesting that will improve the game. I think i added something to the game using only the recourses available in-game. I created an in-game newspaper and the tournament business. Bodacher created a shop. And there are many more players that will think of goals and/or events in the game. A game with a goal, is a game that will not last verry long.

This is a fact, not a question. Once players have reacheds a certain goal, they will loose interest and leave. It is the never ending flow of ps that makes this game so much fun to play.

So get of your lazy buts [sorry \'bout that :)] and find ways to improve this game without the help of any new technical stuff. I know it can be done!
yours, the entertainer

BlackAcre

  • Hydlaa Resident
  • *
  • Posts: 137
    • View Profile
(No subject)
« Reply #25 on: January 31, 2006, 08:16:28 pm »
Fellas are definitely fanatical with the role-playing--I\'ll give you that.  Although, on the street, I haven\'t heard a single conversation that didn\'t sound OOC at some point.  Doesn\'t mean you guys aren\'t there, slinging the roles around, I\'m just curious what different people think role-playing is meant to \"sound\" like.  

One analogy being, I don\'t think I can fool myself into thinking my guy has a hat on, when...he clearly does not have a hat on.  The game needs to be there to allow me to put a visual cue on my character in the semblance of a hat.  Without that, I would rather break out the dungeon master\'s guide and seriously \"role-play\" a guy with a hat on, 100% in my head.  Halfway there just doesn\'t seem to work all that well for me.  Why insist on it?

If you want to create a 100% strictly enforced role-playing game, it\'s going to have to be private--or tyrrannical and elitist.  This was the wrong idea to build that city on the hill for \"care bears\".  Something like Neverwinter Nights, with handpicked players would work, only with a lot of standing around and talking before you shoot the zombies in the neck.  In any event, I find a lot of this talk kind of pretentious and vain.

Karyuu

  • Forum Legend
  • *
  • Posts: 9341
    • View Profile
(No subject)
« Reply #26 on: January 31, 2006, 08:27:44 pm »
PlaneShift\'s purpose is to be a true roleplaying game in the sense that you act in-character as much as possible. This is the goal of the team, and all players should realize that. If in doubt, there is a stickied Player Policy made by Talad, the very head of the project, explaining this. However, the current state of the game does make it difficult - no one can argue against it.

But. As the game grows, as the world expands and features become available, there will be more and more concentration on in-character actions instead of 3D chatrooms - anyone who played MB and then CB would already see the huge differences. No one is forcing anyone to roleplay, but roleplay always has the first priority - that is why anyone intentionally disturbing it will get a very quick kick, that is why we have roleplay Naming Rules, and etc. This is not being fanatical, this is explaining what the game is meant to be for.

Quote
Originally posted by BlackAcre
If you want to create a 100% strictly enforced role-playing game, it\'s going to have to be private--or tyrrannical and elitist.


Although I can definitely assure you that it won\'t be possible in the slightest to make PlaneShift a 100% enforced roleplaying game, I am wondering what the problem would be if the dev team wanted this? It is their project, their hobby, their brainchild - you are here for free, paying absolutely nothing but your time. If you disagree with their rules, you can leave and go do something else. There are no chains and shackles, no contracts, nothing to keep you here if you do not like it.

Moreover, there are a lot of people who for some strange reason think that roleplaying means standing in one spot and being all \"bardic.\" This is nonsense. Roleplay is doing anything in-game as your character, instead of the player sitting at the computer. You can train at the Arena for hours and be in-character. The only thing that matters, is that you interact as much as possible with the characters of other people, instead of the players.
Judge: Are you trying to show contempt for this court, Mr Smith?
Smith: No, My Lord. I am attempting to conceal it.

Vjorin

  • Traveller
  • *
  • Posts: 34
    • View Profile
(No subject)
« Reply #27 on: January 31, 2006, 08:44:00 pm »
Quote
Originally posted by Karyuu
PlaneShift\'s purpose is to be a true roleplaying game in the sense that you act in-character as much as possible. This is the goal of the team, and all players should realize that. If in doubt, there is a stickied Player Policy made by Talad, the very head of the project, explaining this. However, the current state of the game does make it difficult - no one can argue against it.

But. As the game grows, as the world expands and features become available, there will be more and more concentration on in-character actions instead of 3D chatrooms - anyone who played MB and then CB would already see the huge differences. No one is forcing anyone to roleplay, but roleplay always has the first priority - that is why anyone intentionally disturbing it will get a very quick kick, that is why we have roleplay Naming Rules, and etc. This is not being fanatical, this is explaining what the game is meant to be for.

Quote
Originally posted by BlackAcre
If you want to create a 100% strictly enforced role-playing game, it\'s going to have to be private--or tyrrannical and elitist.


Although I can definitely assure you that it won\'t be possible in the slightest to make PlaneShift a 100% enforced roleplaying game, I am wondering what the problem would be if the dev team wanted this? It is their project, their hobby, their brainchild - you are here for free, paying absolutely nothing but your time. If you disagree with their rules, you can leave and go do something else. There are no chains and shackles, no contracts, nothing to keep you here if you do not like it.

Moreover, there are a lot of people who for some strange reason think that roleplaying means standing in one spot and being all \"bardic.\" This is nonsense. Roleplay is doing anything in-game as your character, instead of the player sitting at the computer. You can train at the Arena for hours and be in-character. The only thing that matters, is that you interact as much as possible with the characters of other people, instead of the players.


Thank you!  Well put. :)

BlackAcre

  • Hydlaa Resident
  • *
  • Posts: 137
    • View Profile
(No subject)
« Reply #28 on: January 31, 2006, 09:04:36 pm »
Quote
Originally posted by Karyuu
PlaneShift\'s purpose is to be a true roleplaying game in the sense that you act in-character as much as possible. This is the goal of the team, and all players should realize that. If in doubt, there is a stickied Player Policy made by Talad, the very head of the project, explaining this. However, the current state of the game does make it difficult - no one can argue against it.

But. As the game grows, as the world expands and features become available, there will be more and more concentration on in-character actions instead of 3D chatrooms - anyone who played MB and then CB would already see the huge differences. No one is forcing anyone to roleplay, but roleplay always has the first priority - that is why anyone intentionally disturbing it will get a very quick kick, that is why we have roleplay Naming Rules, and etc. This is not being fanatical, this is explaining what the game is meant to be for.

Quote
Originally posted by BlackAcre
If you want to create a 100% strictly enforced role-playing game, it\'s going to have to be private--or tyrrannical and elitist.


Although I can definitely assure you that it won\'t be possible in the slightest to make PlaneShift a 100% enforced roleplaying game, I am wondering what the problem would be if the dev team wanted this? It is their project, their hobby, their brainchild - you are here for free, paying absolutely nothing but your time. If you disagree with their rules, you can leave and go do something else. There are no chains and shackles, no contracts, nothing to keep you here if you do not like it.

Moreover, there are a lot of people who for some strange reason think that roleplaying means standing in one spot and being all \"bardic.\" This is nonsense. Roleplay is doing anything in-game as your character, instead of the player sitting at the computer. You can train at the Arena for hours and be in-character. The only thing that matters, is that you interact as much as possible with the characters of other people, instead of the players.


They have offered to the public a game. If they want to make it strictly enforced, then that should be what the public wants, and not their cadre of elites, but it\'s completely within their rights to do so anyway.  If you did this now, you would, of course, be creating quasi-contractual obligations that didn\'t exist before, and this sort of thing would probably drive a good many players away--which isn\'t altogether important.  I stand by my conviction that this would be tyrrany and just a crap move on their part in any event.  

As well, the \"leave if you don\'t like it\" mantra is a rhetorical attempt to defuse arguments by denying them to be heard.  If any number of players want to air their greivances, they should be heard, not ignored or minimalized.  Banishing or shaming them isn\'t going to get my support.  It\'s also, completely within the rights of the developers.  But again, you don\'t hold something out to the public, offer it for free, and then retract it over and over again while qualifying their use of it, if you know what\'s good for your product.  Or hell, maybe that\'s the definition of open source.

Me personally, I think the naming rules should be narrowly defined, rather than forcing anything remotely recognizable as English to be banned.  Which contradicts the point you make that \"nobody is forcing anyone to roleplay.\"  You\'ve forced me to use an incoherent jumble of letters having no rational foundation other than it sounds like something you might read in a conan comic-book--rather than a name which is just as plausible in any universe.  Simply banning l337 names and numbers would be enough.  Cesalthino is no less pretentious than \"Crackle\", one being a frequentative of \"crack\" no more or less offensive and no more or less likely than any other name given to a 6 foot tall horned demon from an unknown hellish home, and the other being a meaningless word jumble created by a generator.  So, in effect, we\'ve already enforced role-playing.  OOC conversation must be in parentheses, so role-playing is indeed, already enforced.  The question I keep asking is when and where does the enforcement stop.  I see very poor reactions to anyone suggesting anything but puritannical role-playing directives--and I think that\'s the wrong way to go.  

As far as what role-playing is or isn\'t, I won\'t argue the point.  I have my preconceptions, and nothing in this game has so far, changed those preconceptions.  I\'m hoping that it will as I\'m new, so hopefully that\'s really all it is.  I don\'t spend a whole lot of time in game as of yet, the client is still kind of dodgy on the mac.  

Finally, the online \"community\" should create itself, and not be directed like Providence Plantations, to behave itself in certain ways.  I think if the game gives us things to do, it\'s easier to role-play--that\'s all.  Role-playing at the expense of fun is what I want to avoid in the end.  Sometimes, what happens in a meta-aesthetic sense, above and beyond what character you are playing, is what makes a MMORPG fun, but I think I might\'ve stated that already.  Of course, this could all just be the Hamiltonian in me, hoping for the best, worried over the possiblities a \"new republic\" has in store for it.  I think MMORPGs similarly get to recreate society in a sense everytime a new one begins, I think that\'s fairly cool to watch.

Karyuu

  • Forum Legend
  • *
  • Posts: 9341
    • View Profile
(No subject)
« Reply #29 on: January 31, 2006, 09:27:09 pm »
Quote
Originally posted by BlackAcre
They have offered to the public a game. If they want to make it strictly enforced, then that should be what the public wants, and not their cadre of elites, but it\'s completely within their rights to do so anyway.


PlaneShift is not aimed at every single type of player in the world. This is not a game for people seeking a pure hack-and-slash experience, nor is it a game for people wanting a solo journey. This is an MMORPG ;) The development team has defined what they expect of the people coming in to stay - and to change their goals completely to bend to the will of a small portion of the public would be a silly thing to do, particularly as I said, PlaneShift is their brainchild.

Quote
If you did this now, you would, of course, be creating quasi-contractual obligations that didn\'t exist before, and this sort of thing would probably drive a good many players away--which isn\'t altogether important.


Indeed - the loss of players who refuse to roleplay at all or hinder the roleplay experiences of others is not a cause for tears. Many have come and many have gone, and PlaneShift is as strong as ever.

Quote
As well, the \"leave if you don\'t like it\" mantra is a rhetorical attempt to defuse arguments by denying them to be heard.  If any number of players want to air their greivances, they should be heard, not ignored or minimalized.  Banishing or shaming them isn\'t going to get my support.


You can complain all you want about the development team\'s goals and rules, but I fail to see the point - are you attempting to make them change their project? If this game doesn\'t suit you, why stay and try to make it into something else? I could understand if the rules were truly hideous and limiting things, but as it is now, they are simply encouraging players to act in-character - hardly an issue to make a fuss about, is it?

Quote
But again, you don\'t hold something out to the public, offer it for free, and then retract it over and over again while qualifying their use of it, if you know what\'s good for your product.


Nothing has been retracted - I\'m having a bit of difficulty deciphering your point in this sentence. This game is free, certainly, and anyone can try it to see if they like it and want to remain - but it\'s not an \"I\'m here so I can do anything I want and act in any way I like\" deal. You are a guest here, a participant in an event organized by other people who have offered you a free ticket - do you attend a free concert and then complain when others tell you that there are certain expected behaviors?

Quote
Me personally, I think the naming rules should be narrowly defined, rather than forcing anything remotely recognizable as English to be banned.


Anything remotely English is not banned, as you put it. The GMs try to use their best personal judgment, and unless the names are truly a mess (Mister Pieman comes to mind), they are often left for players to report - so if no one else minds, they remain. Names like Whiskers, Stonefoot, Crackle, as you mentioned, would be left as they are - there is no reason to change them.

Quote
Which contradicts the point you make that \"nobody is forcing anyone to roleplay.\"  You\'ve forced me to use an incoherent jumble of letters having no rational foundation other than it sounds like something you might read in a conan comic-book--rather than a name which is just as plausible in any universe.


Does it worry you so much to be called \"Kadaran\" instead of \"Bigfoot,\" for example, if you are not interested in roleplay?

Quote
So, in effect, we\'ve already enforced role-playing.  OOC conversation must be in parentheses, so role-playing is indeed, already enforced. The question I keep asking is when and where does the enforcement stop.


As this is a game in development, so is the fine-tuning of our rules. As DaveG stated in another thread, the IC-OOC issue is something the devs are discussing quite a bit lately. But most, if not all, of the information you are looking for can be found in the stickied Player Policy. If you are not purposefully disturbing another\'s roleplay, there should be no reason to take any actions.
Judge: Are you trying to show contempt for this court, Mr Smith?
Smith: No, My Lord. I am attempting to conceal it.