I want to know. What do the devs have planned to save this game?

[Keto]

The following could be seen as an off-topic hijack/rant, please ignore if you feel that it does so.

The planeshift dev team has a goal (or a mission) to create a game which: takes unique approaches at content, encourages roleplaying to a far greater degree than any other game in its class, among numerous other things. Of course I\'m not a part of the dev team, so as far as I know their real goal could be to take over the world. But let\'s make the former assumption.

You do not pay to play: you do not pay the dev\'s salary. This is not their job, it is a hobby. With that in mind, the devs have absolutely no obligation to listen to you/the community (where in other games you pay for a product so they are obligated to appease you). They could, if they wanted, completely remove the fighting system, recreating the MB feel of a virtual chatroom (only closer to a 3d larp with all the items and tradeskills)*. But I assure you this is not in their plans.

They could do what ever they want; it is _their_ game, not the community\'s. They don\'t have to do anything to please the community; they do not have to maintain it either. Having said that, this dev group has actually listened to the community, and based much of what is put in the game on what the community wants (which makes them totally awesome).

If you like the game, be grateful you\'ve gotten to see it, much less play it. Add constructive comments, offer to help out, since we\'re lucky enough to have devs that listen to the community that follows their game.

PS could be developed forever if it were closed off from the public and there were no community. The devs will not lose their ability to program or desire to create such a game if you (or anyone) stops visiting the forums or playing the game. Needless to say, many of the devs would not see the point if they didn\'t have a growing community to see the results they produce. So stick around, encourage them to continue working on the game.


tl;dr version: the community isn\'t an integral part of the development of planeshift. People come and go, get used to it. If you stick around, help out. Have a nice day.


*The idea of a \"3d larp\" is clearly a flawed relation, only meant to lighten the mood; it is not a part of the discussion, please don\'t comment on how dumb it is.

[BlackAcre]

PlaneShift is not aimed at every single type of player in the world. This is not a game for people seeking a pure hack-and-slash experience, nor is it a game for people wanting a solo journey. This is an MMORPG The development team has defined what they expect of the people coming in to stay - and to change their goals completely to bend to the will of a small portion of the public would be a silly thing to do, particularly as I said, PlaneShift is their brainchild.

I don\'t think it\'s nearly as small a portion of the public as you\'re convincing yourself can take or leave role-playing, but if you polemicized the issue, then I suppose most people will say they are \"for role-playing\".  

Indeed - the loss of players who refuse to roleplay at all or hinder the roleplay experiences of others is not a cause for tears. Many have come and many have gone, and PlaneShift is as strong as ever.

That\'s your characterization, not mine.  Besides, loyalty matters little to the conversation.  

You can complain all you want about the development team\'s goals and rules, but I fail to see the point - are you attempting to make them change their project? If this game doesn\'t suit you, why stay and try to make it into something else? I could understand if the rules were truly hideous and limiting things, but as it is now, they are simply encouraging players to act in-character - hardly an issue to make a fuss about, is it?

Again, you\'ve characterized my argument pretty horribly.  And again, telling me to leave isn\'t constructive.  I\'ve aimed a little constructive criticism at the game, nothing more.  Besides that, if this project were complete, we\'d be talking about changing it, since it isn\'t, we\'re talking about what kind of game we want in the first place.  

Nothing has been retracted - I\'m having a bit of difficulty deciphering your point in this sentence. This game is free, certainly, and anyone can try it to see if they like it and want to remain - but it\'s not an \"I\'m here so I can do anything I want and act in any way I like\" deal. You are a guest here, a participant in an event organized by other people who have offered you a free ticket - do you attend a free concert and then complain when others tell you that there are certain expected behaviors?

I didn\'t say anything has been retracted yet.  I was talking about what would be a bad idea, not what was currently going on.  But, to answer your question, if someone handed me a ticket to an AC/DC concert, and I discovered once inside that it was actually Stryper--I\'d complain.

Anything remotely English is not banned, as you put it. The GMs try to use their best personal judgment, and unless the names are truly a mess (Mister Pieman comes to mind), they are often left for players to report - so if no one else minds, they remain. Names like Whiskers, Stonefoot, Crackle, as you mentioned, would be left as they are - there is no reason to change them.

Here is where personal experience actually comes into play--I had a dude named Crackle, and someone changed it to \"Cesalthino\".  I petitioned, to no avail.  The bar isn\'t very high for some player to whine about someone\'s name, so effectively, I\'m saying that you\'re mistaken here.

Does it worry you so much to be called \"Kadaran\" instead of \"Bigfoot,\" for example, if you are not interested in roleplay?

It bothered me from the get go, but not so much anymore.  I don\'t mean to sound sensitive, I\'m not in practice.

As this is a game in development, so is the fine-tuning of our rules. As DaveG stated in another thread, the IC-OOC issue is something the devs are discussing quite a bit lately. But most, if not all, of the information you are looking for can be found in the stickied Player Policy. If you are not purposefully disturbing another\'s roleplay, there should be no reason to take any actions.

Let\'s hope so.

[Karyuu]

Originally posted by BlackAcre
I don\'t think it\'s nearly as small a portion of the public as you\'re convincing yourself can take or leave role-playing, but if you polemicized the issue, then I suppose most people will say they are \"for role-playing\".

I would prefer that you get to know the PlaneShift community a bit before thinking that you know how many are for what ;)

I\'ve aimed a little constructive criticism at the game, nothing more.  Besides that, if this project were complete, we\'d be talking about changing it, since it isn\'t, we\'re talking about what kind of game we want in the first place.

But the game is a roleplaying game. What kind of game you want matters not at all, to be awfully blunt.  

But, to answer your question, if someone handed me a ticket to an AC/DC concert, and I discovered once inside that it was actually Stryper--I\'d complain.

So then you say that there is a matter of some \"false advertising\" in PlaneShift? I would really love for you to pinpoint to specifics here.

I don\'t want to address specifics of the naming rules in this thread, as it is another issue the GMs want to address privately and discuss for a while before more finalizations or decisions. However, the GM team has been reorganized since just a while ago, and are working together with the players really well so far.

[goland]

Originally posted by BlackAcre

I didn\'t say anything has been retracted yet.  I was talking about what would be a bad idea, not what was currently going on.  But, to answer your question, if someone handed me a ticket to an AC/DC concert, and I discovered once inside that it was actually Stryper--I\'d complain.

AC/DC...Stryper...is there really a difference? : P Just playin.

What seems to be an issue here is that there is a misunderstanding of what the dev team is obligated to provide the community.

Here\'s an analogy that I think might work....

You want a shed built but don\'t have the tools or resources.  A friend of yours can get all the lumber and materials for free and offers to build you a shed at no charge.  They build it for you with no guarantees of how long it would last.  Now say 5 years down the road the shed falls apart.  Is it the friend\'s obligation to fix it for you?  Is the friend liable for it falling apart?

Personally, it would be against my morals to hold the friend accountable.  Would other people do different and complain to the friend?  Unfortunately, at least in the US, I think the answer is yes.  I hope this isn\'t true for anyone who\'s a part of this community though.

So we can make this analogy relevant by saying that the shed is Planeshift and the friend is the dev team.  Should we complain to the dev team if Planeshift doesn\'t turn out how we want?  I don\'t think so.  They can do whatever they want with it.  The game engine is open source and any of us have the opportunity to make our own game using some of the material that\'s a part of Planeshift.

It seems many people don\'t understand this business model because we\'re used to buying things that have warranties or guarantees.  Corporations that make money off of other games out there have obligations to their audience because they need to make money.  Planeshift isn\'t bounded by this type of model.  This is bad for people who want planeshift to tailor to popular demand.  It\'s good for those who want a free game and embrace the view of the dev team.


Edit: Fixed some spelling errors

[Stephen McNaire]

Mmm...that analogy doesn\'t quite work I don\'t think. As far as I\'m aware, the Devs are not making PS on our request. We didn\'t ask them to make PS (At least I didn\'t). They\'re making  PS because they want to, because they find it a fun hobby and enjoy watching us populate it.

A better analogy would be:

PS is like a group of friends who declare they are building a tree fort/club house. As they are building it, they invite other friends and people of the neighborhood to come and play, finished or not, to enjoy each new feature as it is done. They listen as the people offer suggestions to improve the fun of the fort, and sometimes they agree, sometimes not.
But the visitors are just that, visitors to the fort, which belongs to the group of friends. The group of friends are under no obligation to the visitors other then common courtisy, which I have never not seen.
Even should many of the visitors declare that they never wish to come to the fort again, that is not a concern. For they wish to build the fort for the fort\'s sake, because they love to create and it brings them joy.

That\'s how I see PS and its Team.

[BlackAcre]

Originally posted by Karyuu

Originally posted by BlackAcre
I don\'t think it\'s nearly as small a portion of the public as you\'re convincing yourself can take or leave role-playing, but if you polemicized the issue, then I suppose most people will say they are \"for role-playing\".

I would prefer that you get to know the PlaneShift community a bit before thinking that you know how many are for what

I\'ve aimed a little constructive criticism at the game, nothing more.  Besides that, if this project were complete, we\'d be talking about changing it, since it isn\'t, we\'re talking about what kind of game we want in the first place.

But the game is a roleplaying game. What kind of game you want matters not at all, to be awfully blunt.  

But, to answer your question, if someone handed me a ticket to an AC/DC concert, and I discovered once inside that it was actually Stryper--I\'d complain.

So then you say that there is a matter of some \"false advertising\" in PlaneShift? I would really love for you to pinpoint to specifics here.

I don\'t want to address specifics of the naming rules in this thread, as it is another issue the GMs want to address privately and discuss for a while before more finalizations or decisions. However, the GM team has been reorganized since just a while ago, and are working together with the players really well so far.

Again, once more, to reiterate!  I am using hyperbole to illustrate my concerns.   There is not going to be a \"winner\" in this exchange, so if get over the idea of defeating each other\'s arguments point by point, then it might be more helpful.   I don\'t think there is \"false advertising\" currently underway, but if you release this game, call it a MMORPG, people not unlike myself will come with preconcieved ideas, ill or not, about how MMORPGs run.  They will expect things to run a certain way, and draconic enforcement of role-playing is not one of them.  These things are implicit.  The only difference between this game and other MMORPGs (besides its \"alphaness\") would be the \"free\" part of the equation.  Maybe that\'s part of the purpose for being open source, so role-playing can be dictated from on high without obligations to a playerbase.

Aside from all that, I am not going to say much more.  If \"working with players really well\" means the players that didn\'t have a problem, then I guess you\'re right.

[BlackAcre]

Originally posted by goland

Originally posted by BlackAcre

I didn\'t say anything has been retracted yet.  I was talking about what would be a bad idea, not what was currently going on.  But, to answer your question, if someone handed me a ticket to an AC/DC concert, and I discovered once inside that it was actually Stryper--I\'d complain.

AC/DC...Stryper...is there really a difference? : P Just playin.

What seems to be an issue here is that there is a misunderstanding of what the dev team is obligated to provide the community.

Here\'s an analogy that I think might work....

You want a shed built but don\'t have the tools or resources.  A friend of yours can get all the lumber and materials for free and offers to build you a shed at no charge.  They build it for you with no guarantees of how long it would last.  Now say 5 years down the road the shed falls apart.  Is it the friend\'s obligation to fix it for you?  Is the friend liable for it falling apart?

Personally, it would be against my morals to hold the friend accountable.  Would other people do different and complain to the friend?  Unfortunately, at least in the US, I think the answer is yes.  I hope this isn\'t true for anyone who\'s a part of this community though.

So we can make this analogy relevant by saying that the shed is Planeshift and the friend is the dev team.  Should we complain to the dev team if Planeshift doesn\'t turn out how we want?  I don\'t think so.  They can do whatever they want with it.  The game engine is open source and any of us have the opportunity to make our own game using some of the material that\'s a part of Planeshift.

It seems many people don\'t understand this business model because we\'re used to buying things that have warranties or guarantees.  Corporations that make money off of other games out there have obligations to their audience because they need to make money.  Planeshift isn\'t bounded by this type of model.  This is bad for people who want planeshift to tailor to popular demand.  It\'s good for those who want a free game and embrace the view of the dev team.


Edit: Fixed some spelling errors

I think you\'ve probably hit the nail on the head.  I would like them to tailor the game to popular demand.  Seems like open source is a populist model in the first place.  I suppose I can leave it at that.  Good analogy, I think.

[BlackAcre]

Originally posted by Stephen McNaire
Mmm...that analogy doesn\'t quite work I don\'t think. As far as I\'m aware, the Devs are not making PS on our request. We didn\'t ask them to make PS (At least I didn\'t). They\'re making  PS because they want to, because they find it a fun hobby and enjoy watching us populate it.

A better analogy would be:

PS is like a group of friends who declare they are building a tree fort/club house. As they are building it, they invite other friends and people of the neighborhood to come and play, finished or not, to enjoy each new feature as it is done. They listen as the people offer suggestions to improve the fun of the fort, and sometimes they agree, sometimes not.
But the visitors are just that, visitors to the fort, which belongs to the group of friends. The group of friends are under no obligation to the visitors other then common courtisy, which I have never not seen.
Even should many of the visitors declare that they never wish to come to the fort again, that is not a concern. For they wish to build the fort for the fort\'s sake, because they love to create and it brings them joy.

That\'s how I see PS and its Team.

Sheesus, art for art\'s sake as applied to video games doesn\'t quite map in my opinion.  But I understand the rationale--I guess I can respect that.  Good luck and don\'t drink the kool-aid.

[goland]

Originally posted by Stephen McNaire
Mmm...that analogy doesn\'t quite work I don\'t think. As far as I\'m aware, the Devs are not making PS on our request. We didn\'t ask them to make PS (At least I didn\'t). They\'re making  PS because they want to, because they find it a fun hobby and enjoy watching us populate it.

Yes, you\'re right...it didn\'t completely work.  It gets the same message across though.  I like your\'s better.

Anyways..

BlackAcre, if you exaggerate in debating something people won\'t usually take your arguments seriously.  Just a tip.

There is no draconic enforcement of rp-ing in planeshift.  I doubt anyone intends for there to be.  If things became very strict then many would leave..and move on to something else to do with their time...nothing to fuss about though because this would probably never happen.

Also, if someone sees the label MMORPG and automatically anticipates for the game to be a certain way then I am sure they\'d be dissappointed if they tried to play and MMORPG that tried to stray a little from the norm.

I don\'t see anyone trying to be the \"winner\" in this discussion.  Karyuu is trying to help you understand how the game and community work as she\'s been here for quite a while and knows a good deal about these things.  It\'s a lot easier to follow a discussion when points are addressed one by one.

To expand on the opensource licensing...something can be opensource and still not be free.  There\'s a lot of different opensource licenses and some have different requirements for duplication and use.  The fact that the game is free intially, free to play continuously, and opensource are signs of a willingness by the dev team to give to the community.  This doesn\'t mean they\'ll give you what you want....whatever they give you is what you get.  That\'s how opensource projects usually work.  If you want the game to be different, the source is open for you to see, and depending on the licensing, duplicate.

As far as PlaneShift goes, I\'m sure the dev team is trying to make as many people as happy as possible while not straying from their values.  Of course they can\'t please everyone.  This is why people are as free to leave as they are to come.  If the game isn\'t what you think it should be, I\'m sure there\'s another game out there that might be.


Edit: BlackAcre, you missed my point in my last post it seems.

[Karyuu]

Originally posted by BlackAcre
There is not going to be a \"winner\" in this exchange, so if get over the idea of defeating each other\'s arguments point by point, then it might be more helpful.

It\'s simply the usual way to respond to posts on this board. Don\'t read into it too much.

PlaneShift is a MMORPG. And it is already \"released,\" as you put it. What matters is the ease with which players can learn about the game\'s rules, and adapt. Again, if they are seeking a hack-and-slash game or aren\'t willing to participate in roleplay occasionally, this game isn\'t for them, and it will be made quite clear.

/end :)

[ By the way, quoting entire posts of others and then replying with a few sentences, in three separate posts, isn\'t a good idea for future reference. Please try to combine your posts into one, and don\'t overquote when it isn\'t necessary. ]

[Ethan]

To save this game? community involvement.

[zanzibar]

What the heck happened to my thread?  What are you all fighting about?

[Karyuu]

I don\'t know :/ Maybe you could read it and figure it out?

[zanzibar]

Originally posted by Karyuu
I don\'t know :/ Maybe you could read it and figure it out?

Maybe later....

[BlackAcre]

Originally posted by goland

Originally posted by Stephen McNaire
Mmm...that analogy doesn\'t quite work I don\'t think. As far as I\'m aware, the Devs are not making PS on our request. We didn\'t ask them to make PS (At least I didn\'t). They\'re making  PS because they want to, because they find it a fun hobby and enjoy watching us populate it.

Anyways..

BlackAcre, if you exaggerate in debating something people won\'t usually take your arguments seriously.  Just a tip.

...

Edit: BlackAcre, you missed my point in my last post it seems.

A) I didn\'t miss your point.  I disagreed with your point.
B)  Most people use hyperbole at some point or another during a debate.  It\'s a rhetorical device I use when I\'m comfortable talking with people.  Apparently, I assumed too much congeniality--a mistake I won\'t make again.
C) I\'m not nearly as invested in this debate as you might think.  Someone has to play the devil\'s advocate, in my opinion.  And I can do that.
D)(1)  Zanzibar(?) stated that the scheme for supporting planeshift was a \"populist\" one, based on community donations, which made implicit that this game would have community support.
D(2)  I\'m curious why making a game tailored to community desire is then not where this game is going?
D(3)  There are many very good answers as to why not.
E)  Thank you all, calm down and have a good day today--it\'s someone\'s birthday somewhere.