Author Topic: Unexpected first level shape?  (Read 1749 times)

Nikodemus

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Unexpected first level shape?
« on: February 02, 2006, 02:56:22 pm »
foreword: I hope it\'s the right forum and information isn\'t top secret :P

I went to the library and found that book \"Yliakum geography\" Really interesting one, especially because it consists measures of some distances, including first level. I decided to check them and basing on these known values, find out the other distances.
But somethink was wrong, the given values not correct with another and i started wondering why. And here is what I came with:



C2 - inner circumference.
A - area(surface) of first level.
The values at dark picture are from the book.

I hope you get that :P
My point is that the first level don\'t have shape of flat CD, what i was thinking at first. And what is small extreme, the angle with what the avarage ground is going down is a bit high = 25,26 degrees. That is rather steep.

This is also for Nirlem, because the idea came to my mind while discussing this stuff with him and i told i will finish this one day ;)
What do you all think?
« Last Edit: December 21, 2006, 07:41:32 pm by Nikodemus »



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Nilrem

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« Reply #1 on: February 02, 2006, 04:00:30 pm »
Before ever starting to analyze your numbers and their implications, some things should be, I think, stated in a clearer way; describing thoroughly as possible what each thing represents is a basic prior step before attempting to reach any conclusion.

I assume the first circle in which A,B and C are is the \"first level\" ground.
Question is, what is the circumference which contains D, E and F representing?
At first, I thought you were representing, with the first, the \"outern\" circumference, and with the last the \"inner\" circumference, but I discarded that since, in that case, both circumferences should be on the same plane.
Then, I searched for an alternative explanation of why that other circumference may represent. So I asked myself, perhaps he\'s trying to represent the second level? (that is the one below the first, where Hydlaa and Oja are, and hasn\'t still been implemented in game) I thought that was more accordingly to the painting given as help.
Then I went to check the book.

The diameter of first level is, it says, 50km. That then confirms that the circle containing ABC is indeed the first level since AB=r=25km

Then I said, ok, let\'s try to confirm that second circle represents the second level.
The distance between 1st and 2nd levels, as the book says is 5km. That would mean that BE=H3 should be 5km. On your notes is 4,14km. Well, perhaps that circle indeed represented the second level...
The book also claims the second level to have a diameter of 40km. That means that section DE should be, then, 20km. According to your notes, section DE=r2 has 16,23km. An error too big as to consider that indeed, that was the second level.

So then, I came back to my first hypothesis. That second circle you drew must represent then, the inner circumference (although I maintain that it _has_ to be on the same plane as the outern one) so I went to check the book again. Inner circumference with a perimeter of 102 km. Ah! Amazingly that leads to a radius of 16,23km exactly r2.
So that then leads to a conclusion that helps me to finally see what you meant: The surface were the things are placed in the first level (and then the other levels too) isn\'t flat, but all of it following a curve (banking I think is the word) like the ones you can see at Indianapolis circuit.
Then again, I\'ll have to differ with that vision, since, as you also state at your conclusion, you got an angle of 25?, that means a pendant of about 50% (considering that 90? would be infinitum pendant and 45? would be 100% pendant, just trying to make a rude aprox.) and indeed that\'s absolutely insane. Not only for the effort that would represent for travelling, but also because things should be rolling towards the inner circumference pretty easily, forming a nice cascade of rocks, fruits and other delicious things that would be the new neighbours (at least for some seconds) for the rests of the levels.

Without entering to evaluate the exactity of your numbers and formulas (I don\'t doubt you\'ve thought about them) I prefer to focus in those aspects, rather than trying to dig too whole, if there\'s really nothing to get from there.
Where I think your error is?
In taking the numbers with a too narrowed view.
The book isn\'t exact.
We don\'t know about the methods that were used to make those calculations, and even more, we don\'t know about the number Pi; more concretedly, the accuracy that Yliakeans have with that number.

Concentrating on the first floor the book says:
First level: Diameter 50km, floor 10 km wide.
Thanks to your drawing I understood what the book meant with that \"wide\" and that leads to two different radius. One for the outern circumference and the other for the inner. So outern radius=25km, while inner radius= 15km.

The next thing the book talks about is perimeters. Inner circumference 102km, and outern 157km.
That leads again to two radius. Inner one=16,23 outern one= 24,99km.
As you can see the outern perimeter is perfectly calculated and that can lead to think that, indeed Yliakeans know about number Pi (and with accuracy)
So, now, what we do with that difference in the inner radius stimation? You searched your reason, ended with the \"indianapolis curves\" and also to an alpha that almost seems impossible.
I prefer to take another position: we don\'t know how those measures where made, there\'s a 10% of difference between those two different values for r2 that I prefer to assign to different measuring methods. While I\'m too amazed about the exact of the outern, I fail to see what may have happened to the cartographer to fail with the inner.
Anyway, for sure the poor guy had a big deal popping all those measures, just keep in mind that the \"whole\" on the first level has a diameter of 30km, and hey, that\'s a big whole.

I\'ll too await to see what people thinks about the issue, anyway Nikodemus, thanks a lot for the effort you put in it, at least to me, your post has let me finally understand what you were referring to when talking about \"not flat ground\" you simply meant heavily inclined ground.

See you around.

EDIT1: How is it that this thread has 5 stars? oO
EDIT2: Also observe that H should be too, almost the total height of the stalagmite (if we substract from it the distance from the first floor to the ceiling) and the book just says that the distance between levels is 5km, and there are 8 levels :S
« Last Edit: February 02, 2006, 04:08:25 pm by Nilrem »
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Wired_Crawler

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« Reply #2 on: February 02, 2006, 04:45:48 pm »
Before I\'ll write anything - was the text in the book changed recently ? I don\'t remember having so much doubts about numbers given in it. I was even able to draw all levels by following those informations (and then I came to -> conclusions ).
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Nikodemus

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« Reply #3 on: February 02, 2006, 05:23:40 pm »
Hehe, i was wondering if this won\'t be a bit too confusing, but it took me a lot time to make drawings, so i thought the rest i keep short. but i see you got it right finally.

Quote
Originally posted by Nilrem
So that then leads to a conclusion that helps me to finally see what you meant: The surface were the things are placed in the first level (and then the other levels too) isn\'t flat, but all of it following a curve (banking I think is the word) like the ones you can see at Indianapolis circuit.
Then again, I\'ll have to differ with that vision, since, as you also state at your conclusion, you got an angle of 25?, that means a pendant of about 50% (considering that 90? would be infinitum pendant and 45? would be 100% pendant, just trying to make a rude aprox.) and indeed that\'s absolutely insane. Not only for the effort that would represent for travelling, but also because things should be rolling towards the inner circumference pretty easily, forming a nice cascade of rocks, fruits and other delicious things that would be the new neighbours (at least for some seconds) for the rests of the levels.


This is correct

The book may consist very poor measurements, but i could do nothing better than take them as correct. Now i could play with decreasing and increasing them to see when the angle will look a bit better, but I don\'t think I will x)

Furher, I get it the way that Yliakeans know about PI, Thales and Pithagoras (most likely some Xacha scentists/philosophs under different names). If not, then unfortunately i won\'t be able to put these calculations as IC of my char Nikodemus.

As about the \"floor 10 km wide\" thing, i\'m not sure what it is. I excluded it from my calculations. But the |AD|=|CF|=l3 which is equal to 9,7km, is very close to 10km, may be indeed the same distance.

The \"H\" is much smaller than the whole stalactite. It represents in no way the stalactite height and i used it only to find out the \"H3\".
Although i point out some similiar matter. The H3=4,14km which is almost 5km. The height beatwen each level is 5km high as the book say. It\'s another too high value near the angle.

Again, the book values may be really poor estimations. But then my calculations proove it in better or worse way. Anyway, i prefer to take them as closer to the real dimensions because my calculations have bigger sense :P



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Vjorin

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« Reply #4 on: February 02, 2006, 07:27:22 pm »
Who\'s to say the person who wrote the book was accurate?

Who\'s to say the stalagtight angles inwards in a straight line? I mean, have you ever seen one?  I have yet to see one that angles inwards like that a makes a perfect cone.

Besides, I thought I read some place that the top two layers aren\'t actually in the stalagtight, but rather in the top of the cave itself.
« Last Edit: February 02, 2006, 07:28:43 pm by Vjorin »

Bereror

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« Reply #5 on: February 02, 2006, 09:06:08 pm »
Here are some maps how the world was known hundreds or thousands of years ago:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_world_maps

Why would the books in the Jayose\'s Libary be any different?
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Wired_Crawler

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« Reply #6 on: February 02, 2006, 09:17:19 pm »
Nikodemus, I am looking at your picture and your calculations, and I think, that Your theory is based on wrong assumptions. Why do you claim, that the surface of the level is not flat ? The book says it precisely: \"The gods created flat land all along the walls of the stalactite...\".
Also:
Quote
As about the \"floor 10 km wide\" thing, i\'m not sure what it is. I excluded it from my calculations.
You can\'t exclude anything which does not suit Your vision. Why aren\'t You sure, what it is ? It is quite obvious: the difference between radius of outer and inner edge is equal to 10 km, so the land is flat ring 10 km wide.
If You are still unsure, how the stalactite of Yliakum looks like, search the forum for the word \"claustrophobic\" in the subject, than find in the thread the link to the image posted by one of developers.

P.S. This is what my blender said, when I was trying to make a model of Yliakum :D

At least it is more funny, that Windows\' \"Unknown error has occured\" ;)
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Nikodemus

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« Reply #7 on: February 02, 2006, 09:48:30 pm »
Vjorin: Would you then instead of looking proof for your theories, sit and do nothing? Because its the way how i get you.
Besides you are obviously missing some little bit of information, this big blue writing on dark drawing:
Yliakum - first level
By this i don\'t mean the whole stalactite, but only its part. Thread topic also suggests that.
Have you read the mentioned book?

Bereror: I assume you suggest that the values in book are estimations, like the maps which you linked to are also estimations. I didn\'t said they aren\'t, but as i suggest above, it is better to have somethink instead of nothing. Try to learn somethink from what i did, because even estimation consists valuable informations.

Wired_Crawler:
If you think its flat like CD plate, then the below should be right. Solve it and tell if it is.
PI[r^2]-PI[r2^2]=A
Needed values take from my first post.

Let me paste the full quote which you somehow cuted off
Quote

As about the \"floor 10 km wide\" thing, i\'m not sure what it is. I excluded it from my calculations. But the |AD|=|CF|=l3 which is equal to 9,7km, is very close to 10km, may be indeed the same distance.

This means that if you round up the 9,7, you get 10. So, I excluded it, but got the same value in the finish.
Also, i didn\'t excluded it because it wasn\'t fitting my theory, but because i wasn\'t sure as what the book define it. I was supposing what it is, and looks like i was right.



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Wired_Crawler

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« Reply #8 on: February 03, 2006, 02:14:44 am »
Quote
Originally posted by Nikodemus
Wired_Crawler:
If you think its flat like CD plate, then the below should be right. Solve it and tell if it is.
PI[r^2]-PI[r2^2]=A
Needed values take from my first post.
Hm... I see. You have calculated r2 using the lenghth of inner circumference, I have simply substracted 10 km from r. My version gives:

Pi*25^2-Pi*15^2=1256.6371

which is \"exact\" value in the book. But You are right, in that case inner circumference should be shorter... Definitely we have been given contradictory informations. Hmm... what are the possibilities then ?
1.  IC: the author of the book made a random mistake
2. OOC: the author of the book made a random mistake
3. 1. + 2.
4. 1. or 2. or (1. + 2.) but with with \"random\" replaced by \"intentional\" (to cause a headake of those, who dare to find the truth :D )
5. data and Your calculations are correct and the land really is sloping so much (not necessarily down - maybe up ?)
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Nikodemus

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« Reply #9 on: February 03, 2006, 02:35:31 pm »
Quote
Originally posted by Wired_Crawler
5. data and Your calculations are correct and the land really is sloping so much (not necessarily down - maybe up ?)

It could be up, but imagine how would the light radiate on the surface then.
The land gains the biggest portion of light while it is sloping down on some angle. It gains smaller portion of light while it\'s flat like you was thinking at first and the more you will make it slopy up, the less and less it will catch light.
Now the question is what is the max portion of light radiating on the first level while its on perfect angle. Is it too warm? Maybe Laanx and Talad made the level angle so that the land gains the right portion of warmth for races living on it.
I believe that Laanx and Talad while creating the Yliakum, gave each level some angle, but Yliakum is so big that common thinking of Yliakeans is that each level is flat. Like people was thinking once, the earth is flat, because they haven\'t seen more than the piece of known world and even this was given only too few.



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Nilrem

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« Reply #10 on: February 03, 2006, 03:44:38 pm »
First of all, Nikodemus you\'re right, my 2nd edit is wrong.

Secondly, I too think like Wired_Crawler, and still keep that there\'s an error in the book. Either IC or OOC. The person who wrote it, I\'m sure didn\'t spend his time figuring out all of this things, simply because it isn\'t practical. I guess he/she was merely trying to provide more details on the setting, that\'s all. The book has incongruences, yes, so let\'s await any \"official\" reasoning, and if it doesn\'t come, we can always say it\'s been an error of the cartographer, we don\'t have to get stopped in it like if this was a key topic in order to continue our playing.

Now back to you, Nikodemus:

I don\'t know why you\'re sticking on your position of keeping the consideration about the land being inclined, when you reached the conclusion about the angle. We could discuss if the levels should be inclined or not, granted; but please, we can\'t assume that the level has an inclination of 25?.
I also stated it before, but just think of it, it\'s an insane inclination.
I too have my concerns about lighting, but mainly warming, rain origin and so on, but that leads to a completely different thread. Here we\'re discussing the shape.
Also, I\'d like to say that, if we\'ve to assume that indeed the 5th hypothesis is the correct one (which it isn\'t) with that inclination, the justification of \"locally plane\" that you use, with similarity to Earth fails. With such an inclination, everyone would realize that the ground isn\'t flat, but inclined, simply because the effort they\'d have to do to go from one place to another.
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Wired_Crawler

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« Reply #11 on: February 03, 2006, 05:15:59 pm »
Quote
Originally posted by Nikodemus
It could be up, but imagine how would the light radiate on the surface then.
Forget the light, what about water ? :D How would it flow 4 km up to the edge ?
Your original statement could be supported in the following way: imagine, that the axis of the planet and axis of Yliakum lie on the same straight line. Rotation of the planet adds additional force, which changes perpendicular direction, so those \"rocks, fruits and other delicious things\" would not roll to the edge. Actually, in this case the terrain should be sloping.

So here comes the next conclusion - as Nilrem says, we will not find the right answer, until more informations are revealed by the author of the book. He promised, that he will update the book soon ;)
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Nikodemus

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« Reply #12 on: February 03, 2006, 05:23:55 pm »
I think the land is inclined, because there are infinite angles with which the land may be inclined and the 0 degrees (flat) is only one. It\'s very highly conected with light the level absorbs, thus warmth, also the existance of rivers make us think the level isn\'t completly flat.
For one i do agree ;) the angle which i calculated from the book is insane, not really possible fact, but i wanted to point out that there is no way the level is completly flat. The angle isn\'t 20 degrees, but it also isn\'t 0. Why? Because if it would, then the values from the book put inside the right equation (filed insde circle with hole inside) wouldn\'t prove each other wrong.
It\'s hard to believe a mature person and dev would make elementary school mistake. Same goes to the IC carthographer. The IC cathographer was sure the level isn\'t flat. He/she knew the PI number.
Quote
As you can see the outern perimeter is perfectly calculated and that can lead to think that, indeed Yliakeans know about number Pi (and with accuracy)

Of course the error could be on purpose. I gues we will never know unless someone with knowledge come and explain ;)

While i was reffering to the flat world dogma i was already thinking the angle is small. 25 degrees is obviously too much that people wouldn\'t realize. Also, saying that somethink is flat, especialy as big as Yliakum level is big simplifing. It\'s like you say the road is flat while it has holes from time to time and is going down/uphill

EDIT: Wired_Crawler: I thought about the water when i already posted the last post :P But mentioned here ;)
And i\'m not sure if the rotating force would be of great importance, gravity is still much greater i think ;>
« Last Edit: February 03, 2006, 05:29:04 pm by Nikodemus »



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Wired_Crawler

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« Reply #13 on: February 03, 2006, 08:55:42 pm »
My, my, we are starting to switch to oposite sides :]
Quote
And i\'m not sure if the rotating force would be of great importance, gravity is still much greater i think ;>

Oh, I\'m sure it would... All depends on rotation speed ;) I\'m not going to calculate it here for two reasons:
1. I\'m too lazy (maybe You will do it IC ?)
2. I think this should not be discussed OOC on the forum anymore, we could make \"gods\" angry by accident. After we know the rotation speed of planet, there is only one step away from knowing it\'s size, mass, distance from nearest star... and two steps away from Yliakean version of Big-Bang theory ;) ;)

So, let me make a quick summary, then this topic will become closed for me, at least for some time.

Scenery: First Yliakum Academy, big classroom
Participants: Nikodemus, old Professor, the Class

Professor has long beard and long moustaches, he wears long, black toga. Apparently he posseses magic skills, because there is floating ball of light reacting to moves of his hand. Nikodemus, as the rest of class, is dressed as typical student of First Academy. He stands at the board and nervously shifts his weight from one foot to the other.

Professor chuckles, looking at the drawings and numbers, which cover the blackboard. They are all work of Nikodemus, of course.
\"So, my young apprentice, You are stating, that according to this worthless scrawl *contemptously nudges the book, which Nikodemus handed him a while ago* the land is not horizontal, but it is like slanting ramp, do I understand You correctly ?\"
\"Yes, Proffessor. You see, the numbers given by the author are very reasonable, and, as You can see, these *points to blackboard* calculations are correct,  don\'t You agree, sir ?\"
Professor chuckles again.
\"Ah... You must learn so much. Listen. If You are right, we all, together with rocks, fruits and *chuckle, chuckle* other delicious things would be lying at the bottom of Yliakum long time ago. *chuckles again*\"
Class: all students giggle, chuckle, some of them are pointing to Nikodemus and his writings, and they are commenting silently with ironic smiles on their faces.
Nikodemus, with all face red, still does not give up. \"I can try to explain it also, Professor. Give me a little more time\"
\"Well, it can be amusing, go on, go on\" Professor smiles leniently.
Nikodemus cleans the blackboard. \"Thank You for Your patience. Look, If we assume, that...\"
***
10 minutes passed...
***
Professor does not chuckle anymore, he stares at the board and mumbles something.
Class watches silently. Someone sneezes.
Suddenly...
\"Aha! What have we here ?\"  Professor brightens up.
\'Wha... what is it Professor ?\" Nikodemus quickly slides his sight over his work. \"Is there something wrong ?\"
\"Yes, Nikodemus. Your shoes.\"
\"My... my shoes sir ?\"
\"Yes. Your shoes are dirty. Go out immediately and do not return, until You look like a member of the First Yliakum Academy.\"
\"Y... Yes, Professor. Forgive me. It will not happen again.\"  *leaves the classroom humbly*.
\"Well, my students, let\'s return to the subject of today\'s lesson...\"
*****
Then several years passed...


[Nikodemus, if You don\'t like Your name appearing in the story, let me know, I\'ll change it.]
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Talad

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« Reply #14 on: February 03, 2006, 09:17:42 pm »
Sorry, I didn\'t read all your post, but in your calculations you should remember that the levels are made by grades or steps, and the vertical surface of the steps is not vertical. That can probably solve the dilemma you are having.