Author Topic: Wasn't Toda a male Enki before?  (Read 3713 times)

Nilrem

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« Reply #30 on: February 16, 2006, 11:31:53 am »
Today I checked, and indeed the model has changed.

Anyway, if Darkmoon says Toda has to be a male, means that Toda was thought to be a male.

The description says: \"An industrious Enkdukai busy at his shop\"
I guess the clue here is the \"his\" part ;)
Ah, and yes, the description says Enkdukai :P
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zanzibar

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« Reply #31 on: February 16, 2006, 12:16:19 pm »
Toda was changed from male to female so that one of the quests would be able to involve a female.  There seems to be a shortage of females in Ojaveda nowadays.
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LigH

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« Reply #32 on: February 16, 2006, 09:41:24 pm »
Not only a \"shortage of females\", but a \"shortage of dockworkers\" in general. I hope that I can find the reason as well... (Don\'t tell me here!)

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Pestilence

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« Reply #33 on: February 17, 2006, 12:35:01 am »
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No. It proves that the rule is wrong, false, invalid, untrue, flawed, prone to failure, and unreliable.

The problem is that the saying comes from a time when \"prove\" had a different meaning. Back then, it meant \"to test\", not \"to show as correct\".


hmmm think that saying it a million time after eachother make it anymore true?

As for the saying coming from before and it meaning something different before is way irrelevant. I mean if a saying was used differently 100 or more years ago who cares? There is a widely accepted meaning of the saying now and so that is the only one you should look at.

You didn\'t say it and it\'s pretty obvious that we ment it the way it\'s used in this age and didn\'t mean it in the way it was used a few hundred years ago. So please stop trying making this is discussion about words and stay on topic.


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Different cultures can have very different expectations for male and female roles and personalities. Just look at our own culture over the last thousand years. Heck, look at our own culture over the last 50 years!


hmmm well lets look at the basics... 10.000 years ago men were hunters and females were the ones who stayed near camp and gathered food there and took care of the children

hmm back to now. ideal family picture: the male is the one who goes out and gets money for the family, the female is the one who stays at home and takes care of the children and work to keep the house up.

hmm see similarities there? And lets look at other civilizations. Well atleast seems to be the same trend going on there if not worse about people being forced to act that way.

Even with civilizations being tottally different still the same red line is seen in almost all of them.

Now don\'t say it\'s not true cause you know it is and don\'t say it\'s all social becuase thats obviously not the case if 10.000 years ago it was already this way with tribes that would have no contact with eachother.
« Last Edit: February 17, 2006, 12:38:58 am by Pestilence »

Karyuu

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« Reply #34 on: February 17, 2006, 01:10:49 am »
Did anyone fail to notice that we\'re playing not on Earth but in Yliakum, with races and cultures that can be vastly different?
Judge: Are you trying to show contempt for this court, Mr Smith?
Smith: No, My Lord. I am attempting to conceal it.

yayoo

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« Reply #35 on: February 17, 2006, 01:19:09 am »
Yeah BUT it\'s a medieval setting?And are some races slightly based on animals in our world?Whos dominates the animal kingdom in most cases males.
« Last Edit: February 17, 2006, 01:20:41 am by yayoo »

Karyuu

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« Reply #36 on: February 17, 2006, 02:37:02 am »
This no longer has anything to do with speech - although Enkidukai are generally led in pack form by a male, they are all hunters and fierce warriors. There is no reason for a female Enkidukai to have a \"default\" behavior of rose-scented niceness. I\'ve talked to Toda yesterday, and the only things out-of-place were one action that used \"he\" in her speech when referring to herself, and her description. Beyond that, there was absolutely nothing that screamed \"OMG DEFINITELY MALE\" or \"OMG DEFINITELY FEMALE,\" and I liked it. Again, to steer this back on topic a little, if anyone could point to a specific sentence where Toda definitely says male-like things (excluding the \'errors\' I\'ve pointed out), that would be great.

Anyone?
« Last Edit: February 17, 2006, 03:12:30 am by Karyuu »
Judge: Are you trying to show contempt for this court, Mr Smith?
Smith: No, My Lord. I am attempting to conceal it.

zanzibar

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« Reply #37 on: February 17, 2006, 06:29:22 am »
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Originally posted by Pestilence
As for the saying coming from before and it meaning something different before is way irrelevant. I mean if a saying was used differently 100 or more years ago who cares? There is a widely accepted meaning of the saying now and so that is the only one you should look at.





Oh... my... god...





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Originally posted by Pestilence
hmm back to now. ideal family picture: the male is the one who goes out and gets money for the family, the female is the one who stays at home and takes care of the children and work to keep the house up.





No.  Most families in the Western world are dual income.  That means that both partners have jobs.  There also also many single parent households, stay-at-home dads, etc.

You might think that things should be a certain way, but many people disagree, and the reality of the situation doesn\'t reflect your ideals or preconceptions.







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Originally posted by yayoo
Yeah BUT it\'s a medieval setting?And are some races slightly based on animals in our world?Whos dominates the animal kingdom in most cases males.





Nope.  Look at the insect world for instance.  The females are almost always the dominant sex.  Ants, bees, black widdow spiders, termites, praying mantises - the female is the dominant sex.  In the insect world, the females are usually larger, more dangeorus, and with more influence.

In terms of the animal kingdom, look at lions for instance.  The females are the ones that do the hunting.  If they don\'t like the male of the pride, they chase him out and find a stronger one.

In many bird species, the male will sit on the eggs to keep them warm while the female goes hunting.  Certain species of penguins are excellent examples of this with the male sitting on the egg for many weeks.


So no, looking at the animal kingdom does not support your position.







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Originally posted by Karyuu
Beyond that, there was absolutely nothing that screamed \"OMG DEFINITELY MALE\" or \"OMG DEFINITELY FEMALE,\" and I liked it. Again, to steer this back on topic a little, if anyone could point to a specific sentence where Toda definitely says male-like things (excluding the \'errors\' I\'ve pointed out), that would be great.

Anyone?





Well you see, males - or \"guys\", as we call them - are \"normal\".  That means that they\'re cool, average, normal... though still diverse, too.  Guys can do a lot of things, pretty much anything that they put their mind to.

No, females - or \"dolls\", as we call them - are quite different indeed.  They\'re \"abnormal\".  To be female is an exception to the rule.  In society, they don\'t make many decisions, and they\'re only naturally good at things in the domestic sphere.  So when they deal with people, as in men, they have to show that they\'re a female so that they can have influence using what we call \"magic powers\".  So that\'s why all females tend to talk in higher voices, why they laugh and giggle, etc.  They\'re flighty, \'girly\', and quirky.  It\'s partly an act, and it\'s partly because of their nature.  Not only that, but pretty much all girls are the same.  There are a few exceptions, but they\'re \"freaks\" or \"antisocial\".

Maybe that\'s too much to understand at once dear.  I\'ll understand if you want to leave all this thinking to the boys.



« Last Edit: February 17, 2006, 06:44:57 am by zanzibar »
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Karyuu

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« Reply #38 on: February 17, 2006, 07:09:36 am »
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Originally posted by zanzibar
Maybe that\'s too much to understand at once dear.  I\'ll understand if you want to leave all this thinking to the boys.


Oh darn, I guess I\'ll just go and bake something :<
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Pestilence

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« Reply #39 on: February 18, 2006, 02:21:03 am »
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No. Most families in the Western world are dual income. That means that both partners have jobs. There also also many single parent households, stay-at-home dads, etc.

\"You might think that things should be a certain way, but many people disagree, and the reality of the situation doesn\'t reflect your ideals or preconceptions.


By saying that society sees that as \"ideal\" is something totally different with my views upon it and to say well there are plenty who don\'t life like that well DUH I said it was an ideal. You do know the meaning of that don\'t you?

In the end it doesn\'t matter that much how often reality allows of this to happen. Fact remains that if a family has enough money it is useally the female that stays at home. If one of the two has a part time job to be able to catch the kids after school it is useally the female.

Now just becuase there is a differene between male and females that makes this happen more often doesn\'t mean it always happen.

If you take a random groups of people of the street and ask yourself who is strongest. More then 50% chance its a male, but does this mean it will always be a male?



As for Toda I haven\'t found speech there that screams \"I\'m a transvestite\" Aslong is the text is pretty neutral it\'s what you make of it. Little different in the fanart though what I think atleast one ment to hint to instead of what Toda says in PS.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2006, 03:19:05 am by Pestilence »

zanzibar

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« Reply #40 on: February 18, 2006, 02:24:22 am »
You still don\'t get it.

Maybe you\'ll understand when you\'re older.
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Pestilence

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« Reply #41 on: February 18, 2006, 05:25:44 am »
I bow before your wisdom ohh old one. ;)

The problem is you don\'t get it yourself Zanzibar. You say you disagree but your examples to both me and others show you or don\'t understand what the other is saying or just aren\'t listening.

I do understand your point for as much as you made one instead of delivering critique on others opinions, but I disagree with it.

zanzibar

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« Reply #42 on: February 18, 2006, 05:51:11 am »
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Originally posted by Pestilence
I bow before your wisdom ohh old one.





And rightfully so!
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Pestilence

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« Reply #43 on: February 18, 2006, 06:02:07 am »
my point is proven I guess ;)

zanzibar

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« Reply #44 on: February 18, 2006, 07:05:22 am »
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Originally posted by Pestilence
my point is proven I guess ;)




Not really, but if I pointed it out, I\'d appear immature.

Meanwhile, Karyuu is still baking.... barefoot, no doubt.
Quote from: Raa
Immaturity is FTW.