A radical change to all forms of combat.

[zanzibar]

The wish is simple:

If you move, you automatically change to a full defensive stance.

Why?  It would mean no more 'hit and run' attacks.  This would lead to better fights with monsters I think.

It's also because it will eliminate half a dozen exploits which people use in duels.  The devs use to hate 'hit and run' attacks in duels, saying that it was cheating and that it worked around the mechanics of the game, but then they accepted it since players didn't pay attention.  Now, it's a common practice.  A required one, in fact, since everyone is doing it.

Another exploit it would eliminate is that you can put the "yes" button to accept the challenge right over the bloody attack icon, so you can start your attack the instant you accept the duel, and run up and kill your oponent before they're ready.  Another one is the disapearing act some characters do in certain maps, especially the death realm it seems.  You're running around so much that you disappear on the other guy's screen - some people have learned to exploit this bug to their advantage.

I think that these tactics in duelling take away from the game.  Others probably disagree.  Since I think my wish is a relatively easy fix to this maybe problem, I think that it should be considered and discussed.

[Karyuu]

Hm. I think standing in one spot during a fight would be pretty boring, but you are right about the various "cheats" people use and how annoying they can be. I just don't think that a stationary position during a fight is the best approach. We can probably make the accept/decline window that pops-up upon duel requests immovable, so that may take care of one of the irritations. I've never heard of the disappearing act - curious. That is something that I think should be fixed in the code itself instead of changing the way all combat is handled.

[Vaylos]

I agree that hit-and-run is a bit cheezy. However, I like movement in combat, I mean, I kinda attribute it as (I don't wanna get hit, let me move and try to dodge the blow)  Well, IRL at least. I know some games emply the concept of using certain "styles" not just varying degrees of offensive/defensive attacking, and some of those styles were positional, i.e. had to be facing the side or back of a player to execute the attack. I liked how this kept you thinking on your feet so to speak. However I know PS isn't like other games. There should be some way to keep people moving, but keep them from making hit and runs. 

Idea:
Although this pretty much only works for melee, as a ranged attacker, or magic user would try to be farther away, and get out of the path of the melee attacks.

In melee, or duels maybe have them only able to move a certain radius or distance away from an active target, else the combat is terminated? So, say you move more than a meter from the person(or creature) you're fighting, the attack stops altogether, and is counted as either forfeit, or fleeing or something? (although I guess a creature would have the option of hunting you down)  However, I don't know if this should be used for group combat, since a larger group would need a larger radius to be effective, especially considering ranged attackers.  However, I think that strafing to try and get behind a person is a viable style to attack.  Especially later -if- things like paralysis or poisons or crippling start coming into play.

Just a rough idea to bounce around.

[zanzibar]

I don't mean to suggest that you can't move around.  I think that you should be able to run away from a fight, I think you should be able to run at someone aggressively, I like animated fights with lots of movement.  But when you try to run away, is there an agility check?  I'm pretty tired right now so this post won't be that well writen.  But fundamentally, the whole hit and run thing during duels is essentially an exploit.  People are exploiting the mechanics of the game in order to win the duel.  The 'skill' which is at play during the duel isn't based in RP or character stats or in system mechanics, it's about how good you are at bugging out your opponent.  It feels wrong to me when I think about how the devs have talked about the direction they want their creation to take.

Another problem with it is that people just run through creatures like gladiators and ulbernaughts in order to kill the creature without being hit.  Isn't that an exploitation of the game mechanics?

I'm not sure what the solution is, but am I the only one who sees this as a problem?  Maybe my suggestion can work once other moves are in the game, special techniques and all that.  Maybe there will be a move where it's 'attack, wait' instead of 'wait, attack' so people can run up to their oponent then do their learned attack which is instanteous followed by a wait instead of the other way around, so it really seems like a running kick or whatever.

Karyuu, I know you're a RPer in the game so we've probably seen different styles of fighting and we also probably have our minds on different styles of fighting.  The duels I usually see and get involved in involved two characters running around like mad, faking eachother out, starting false attacks, and the major focus is on timing and having a low /ping rather than character stats or the mechanics within the game.

I dunno.  Stuff and something etcetera.

[Zan]

I personally agree with Karyuu and Vaylos that I prefer not to see passive, immobile combat. In fact I'd like to suggest the opposite of what you want to see ... When you go out of range you don't end your attack stance but the combat continues. Only you obviously won't hit anything as long as you don't go in range. That way you can basically try to dodge and engage the entire time by going in and out of range. Of course for this to work the NPC AI needs a serious boost. NPC's need to be able to advance and back up, just like players, not simply walk at their target.

[zanzibar]

I personally agree with Karyuu and Vaylos that I prefer not to see passive, immobile combat. In fact I'd like to suggest the opposite of what you want to see ... When you go out of range you don't end your attack stance but the combat continues. Only you obviously won't hit anything as long as you don't go in range. That way you can basically try to dodge and engage the entire time by going in and out of range. Of course for this to work the NPC AI needs a serious boost. NPC's need to be able to advance and back up, just like players, not simply walk at their target.

There's nothing inbetween?  Is combat supposed to be this way?

[BlackAcre]

A swordfight should be a series of parries and thrusts, not a series of right-clicks and "s-w-s-w"s (if that makes any sense at all).  Once someone commits to a fight, they should receive harsh treatment for running away.  Perhaps some system wherein an attacker gets an extra attack on fleeing opponents could be created.  Movement beyond minor sidestepping should foil an attack and moving participants should be severely penalized for moving while attempting to attack.  Once your character has reached a million points in a particular weapons skill, that penalty should be negligable, but for beginners, this would constitute an act of desperation, which is what most gamey tactics essentially are.

Not that I think there won't be a thousand other ways to game the system once they've created something like that.  It is called the wish list, after all, for a reason.

[zanzibar]

A swordfight should be a series of parries and thrusts, not a series of right-clicks and "s-w-s-w"s (if that makes any sense at all).  Once someone commits to a fight, they should receive harsh treatment for running away.  Perhaps some system wherein an attacker gets an extra attack on fleeing opponents could be created.  Movement beyond minor sidestepping should foil an attack and moving participants should be severely penalized for moving while attempting to attack.  Once your character has reached a million points in a particular weapons skill, that penalty should be negligent, but for beginners, this would constitute an act of desperation, which is what most gamey tactics essentially are.

Not that I think there won't be a thousand other ways to game the system once they've created something like that.  It is called the wish list, after all, for a reason.

I agree.  Think about it - trying to escape a fight can leave you vulnerable, but the way things are in the game, the whole hit and run thing makes it a way to win.

[Vaylos]

I'll second that notion. That's kinda what I was trying to get at what with the radius idea. And fleeing would leave you quite vulnerable if you just turned and ran. Backstab anyone? >=)  To properly disengage, I guess you'd have to back away from your opponent while keeping your guard up, and put as much distance between you before turning and running.  Having obstacles (pillars, boulders, etc.) would probably help, especially if your opponent used range such as magic or missile weapons.  I think taking a spell bolt, or an arrow or dagger to the back should leave some serious damage hehe.  It'd also be fun trying to cripple someone with a leg shot as they tried to run away.

Anyhoo, I think BlackAcre has the right idea.

edit:  I loved the combat in Redguard. (bethesda game released not long after daggerfall and battlespire, it was pretty buggy though) lotsa parry-strike goodness

[zanzibar]

What about a new attack mode?  "Mobile?"  If you move, you switch to a mobile attack?

Just brainstorming.

[Zan]

Combat is mobile and you are actually constantly staying out of range from your opponent until you close in to attack. Of course there is a difference between backing up and plain running away or at your opponent.

Maybe that could be fixed by creating an combat circle around every character, the size of the circle determines the reach of that character. Of course this should depend on the weapon used and the length of their arms. A claymore has a much larger reach than a dagger and a Kran a larger one than a Dwarf. Besides a varying reach that combat circle should be divided into 3 areas. The front left, the front right and the rear half of the circle. Depending on in which area your opponent is, you can gain a damage/defence advantage or disadvantage. If your enemy is in the left front area, the weapon or shield you equiped in your left hand will be utilized with a maximum efficiency. The same thing goes for your right and when your enemy is behind you ... better hope you have some good protective armor there. Damage will be substantial and only depends on your armor, no dodging what you don't see coming.

That system should make it more realistic and discourage simply running in and out of a fight.

For a mobile combat system NPC opponents need to come quite a way as well though, like I already said they shouldn't just walk straight at their targets and the combat lag needs to be toned down. That last will probably be the hardest problem, removing lag from a multiplayer game.

[zanzibar]

The thing is, Planeshift isn't an action game.

[Vaylos]

hehe aye, and if combat became too fun, we might end up drawing the wrong crowd *chuckle* Anyhoo, planeshift is heavily RP based, so really, combat should be something that is more of a representation than a realistic model. (I guess)  I mean, don't get me wrong, it should be relatively fluid, and try to mimic realism, but I don't think we need a system that is like guild wars, but like...I guess somewhere in between? I believe in the combat system, a chance to parry a strike (besides dodging, or letting the armor absorb the hit) and counterattacking in turn would be good...don't know how you'd do it without a style system like DAOC though *scratches his head and ponders*  maybe have an icon appear near the normal attack icons for a couple seconds if you parry a strike, so you can counterattack, or reposte or something?

Anyways, that's getting a little offtopic I think...the main issue is trying to do away with hit-and-run, "disappearing" and other exploits while keeping things fluid and such.  I dunno, keep brainstorming though hehe.  Maybe something will strike a dev, and they'll write the idea down for later implementation. I can't really think of anything right now without it being too "actiony"

[BlackAcre]

The thing is, Planeshift isn't an action game.

You're right, but this is a wishlist item in any event.  I think we'd all like to see the combat system get as 'real' as possible someday.  Discouraging powergamers is possible in essentially the way it is done already-by promoting RP exclusively through peer pressure.  It'd be pretty laughable to leave the combat system inadequate solely to avoid powergamers, though.   

[white_slayer]

a thing that could work when the game is more advanced is if you ciome running at a npc/player that npc/player can choose some sort of attack suck as fast or whateva that would inflict low damage but the person charging at them wouldnt get to hit that would maybe fix it