Author Topic: A radical change to all forms of combat.  (Read 8687 times)

Vaylos

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Re: A radical change to all forms of combat.
« Reply #30 on: May 07, 2006, 10:08:06 pm »
Zanz, I did NOT mean to suggest RPing as the most powerful bloke on the block.  And as far as characters go, I should clarify that Vaylos is -not- native to the planeshift world. He's an outworlder who got teleported/transferred/insert-jargon, so he's not starting from scratch.  If I were to create a character who was native to the planeshift settings RP-wise, then yes, he'd be starting from scratch as you suggested.

I never never nver never meant to suggest RPing as "all powerful"  I meant that I would RP vaylos as he is, and believe me he has plenty of disadvantages.  I'm not a powergaming/powerRPing yutz ya know heh ;)

The Only thing I can suggest about my character that would appease youre mind, would that be, being from a different plane of existance, he could essentially be starting from scratch since the fighting styles/cultures/customs/government/wildlife,...well...everything would be alien in nature to him. So in essence, in a way, maybe he'd have to re-learn everything.  That I can accept.  However that doesn't mean he's fresh off the farm, and he has his own backstory and experiences.

Any -other- character I create would be a native planeshiftian, so he would pretty much RP/Characterwise be starting from scratch.  Vaylos is my only exception.

Edit: Sorry for the off-topic. I just wanted to clear up any misunderstandings.
« Last Edit: May 07, 2006, 10:13:08 pm by Vaylos »
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derwoodly

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Re: A radical change to all forms of combat.
« Reply #31 on: May 21, 2006, 01:41:24 am »
Why would drinking health potions during combat be cheating?

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<scratches head with astonishment>

I agree with Zanzibar on his concerns with combat, and I am mistified as to what style of game Vengeance has in mind for the non-beta version of PS.  If I wanted to jump/run  all over the place drinking healing potions on hot keys, I would play a FPS or Diablo III. MMORPG combat is more like a boxing match than a gun fight.  Generally I think this is done so server lag is not as big of a deal as it is in a FPS.

I would think that the intiator of the duel would be considered ready to attack, and at the time the duel acceptor presses the accept button, the player with the longest weapon range would hit first.  Even with the two players running at each other, timing of the duel accept button should have no effect on the fight..  I am also a big fan of the auto follow your target that Shadowbane has.  Once you are engaged in toe to toe combat only having faster foot speed will allow you to escape your attacker.  Without the auto follow feature it is a matter of who's computer  has the best Frame rate and least lag.  I would also think that being engaged in combat would lower your foot speed.  If your really wanted to retreat you would have to turn auto attack off to gain full foot speed.

Xordan

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Re: A radical change to all forms of combat.
« Reply #32 on: May 21, 2006, 01:58:01 am »
It's quite possible to drink a potion during a fight, and not OOC. However, I think we should penalise for it. I would like it if non-combat actions gave a malus to your defense for say 1 second or so (time depending on the action). So swapping a weapon, drinking a potion, etc. would make you vunerable for a short time.

Also I'd like us to have 'hunger' and 'thirst', where you can only eat or drink when you're not full. Should stop people drinking 10 potions during a fight. I think SWG used something like this and it was very effective.

Drahlian

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Re: A radical change to all forms of combat.
« Reply #33 on: May 22, 2006, 06:15:17 pm »
The wish is simple:

If you move, you automatically change to a full defensive stance.

Why?  It would mean no more 'hit and run' attacks.  This would lead to better fights with monsters I think.

It's also because it will eliminate half a dozen exploits which people use in duels.  The devs use to hate 'hit and run' attacks in duels, saying that it was cheating and that it worked around the mechanics of the game, but then they accepted it since players didn't pay attention.  Now, it's a common practice.  A required one, in fact, since everyone is doing it.

Another exploit it would eliminate is that you can put the "yes" button to accept the challenge right over the bloody attack icon, so you can start your attack the instant you accept the duel, and run up and kill your oponent before they're ready.  Another one is the disapearing act some characters do in certain maps, especially the death realm it seems.  You're running around so much that you disappear on the other guy's screen - some people have learned to exploit this bug to their advantage.

I think that these tactics in duelling take away from the game.  Others probably disagree.  Since I think my wish is a relatively easy fix to this maybe problem, I think that it should be considered and discussed.


I completely disagree about removing the "hit-and-run" method of dueling. First of all, just standing there and attacking without moving would be utterly skill-less. The person with daggers will always kill the person using short swords, as they're hit first, and if each does a bit over 100 damage, they'll kill the other person before their slower swords finish swinging. Broadswords and longswords would be useless. Spells would be useless. A stronger character would defeat a weaker character 100% of the time. It would be as predictable and skill-less as a game of tic-tac-toe.

I like how dueling is handled right now. Stronger characters and those with faster weapons do have an advantage, but a weaker player still has a chance, weapons are more even, and magic is useful. Since dueling is optional, people don't have to duel if they don't want to.

The bug where people disappear during battle is a problem that seems to have started with 3.014 client. It is highly annoying, but seems to affect everyone the same. When I lose target on Redic, he loses target on me at the same time. I don't think anyone could use this as an exploit, as everyone is affected at the same time. I do look forward to this being fixed though.

I enjoy dueling as a fun and challenging part of PS. There are maybe 20 people that I practice dueling with in the death realm library, and I know there are other groups of people that also practice together. If the "hit and run" aspect were removed, then I think PS would lose much of its appeal for many.

-Drahlian

zanzibar

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Re: A radical change to all forms of combat.
« Reply #34 on: May 23, 2006, 01:55:22 am »
I completely disagree about removing the "hit-and-run" method of dueling. First of all, just standing there and attacking without moving would be utterly skill-less.


The problems you listed are from ballance issues that will be solved down the road.  Another point to remember is that it should take years to max out a character, unlike how it is now.

The "skills" you speak of are arcade skills and therefore OOC.  It's exactly those skills that myself and others would like to see eliminated from gameplay.
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Zan

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Re: A radical change to all forms of combat.
« Reply #35 on: May 23, 2006, 10:29:10 am »
Quote
The "skills" you speak of are arcade skills and therefore OOC.  It's exactly those skills that myself and others would like to see eliminated from gameplay.

Why?
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zanzibar

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Re: A radical change to all forms of combat.
« Reply #36 on: May 23, 2006, 07:30:15 pm »
Quote
The "skills" you speak of are arcade skills and therefore OOC.  It's exactly those skills that myself and others would like to see eliminated from gameplay.

Why?


Read this thread from the beggining.  In short, it's because a lot of those skills are essentially how good you are at exploiting the game mechanics.  On top of that, it bipasses the mechanics written into the game by the devs.
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Zan

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Re: A radical change to all forms of combat.
« Reply #37 on: May 23, 2006, 08:01:24 pm »
What if the game mechanics would be made so that they are meant to be 'exploited' like that, making them a part of combat mechanics?

Just because moving around is an exploit now doesn't mean it should be banned, perhaps it just needs to be optimized to be less exploitable and more fair for all. Step one would be doing away with the automated end attack command when you go out of range.

I agree with you that moving around is an exploit right now but I disagree that the solution to that should be doing away with mobile combat.
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zanzibar

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Re: A radical change to all forms of combat.
« Reply #38 on: May 23, 2006, 08:06:01 pm »
What if the game mechanics would be made so that they are meant to be 'exploited' like that, making them a part of combat mechanics?


That is for the devs to decide.  From my understanding, hit and run attacks were illegal, but then the devs and game masters decided that they couldn't stop people from doing them so they stopped making a fuss about it.
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swordsman

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Re: A radical change to all forms of combat.
« Reply #39 on: May 24, 2006, 07:28:19 am »
(Hi all, I'm new here.)

I think there are two opposing ideas of the fight mechanics.  First, you build the character and introduce him to a fight, make strategic decisions, etc, and the game simulates the arcade part.  Second, you control the character's arcade action with the game merely capping your abilities a bit (how fast you can swing a sword).

The first is more role-playing oriented I think.  It has the unfortunate quality that by following this voluntary practice you hurt yourself relative to those that dont...  This is something like macro-economics: how to encourage right behavior through system design.  I actually do fight mostly this way though maybe because I am new, with the exception of guzzing healing potions I wasn't aware that you could effectively hit and run (except to flee when fighting unknown monsters).

The problem with the second is that the game isn't nearly accurate enough to make it similar to a real fight.  I think the main issue though is physics.  First, the characters move at full speed at all times - the main problem with using hit/run in real life is that it simply takes time and energy to do this.

You can't sprint everywhere all the time - when you run your body speeds up and slows down.  The energy expended by your body is mostly expended when you change speeds (and some loss due to the up and down motion of running, which is partly due to humans not having all four legs on the ground...)

If you want to simulate this in the game, make the jump forward and backward during a fight cost a big pile of stamina.  Make the healing potion take time to work and time to 'clear the throat', i.e. limit the healing speed as suggested.

Similarly, running backwards should be replaced with turning and running forward in most cases, complete with 'exposing the backside' to damage.

Also, the ability to run through an Uber seems just wrong - real physical combat would be *completely* different if one person couldn't block a doorway or stand in someone else's way.

Changing this means that an aggressive guild could take over a small town by blockading the doorway and fighting incoming people.  I think this would be excellent actually, albeit probably annoying in practice (just as it is in our world).  It also doesn't fit well into the idea of being able to reject PvP attacks.  Maybe you should be able to run through anyone who rejects your attack - this makes sense - if they won't fight they can't block you right?

... In an ideally realistic world anyway.  How all this fits into release schedules, packet networks, etc. is harder to say.  But the game would be more effective and immersive if the valley with a dozen trepors actually required you to pick your way through if you can't kill a trepor yet.

Kevin


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Re: A radical change to all forms of combat.
« Reply #40 on: May 24, 2006, 07:48:09 am »
Interesting idea.  I don't think I've heard anyone suggest that collision damage should be turned off if someone declines to duel.
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swordsman

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Re: A radical change to all forms of combat.
« Reply #41 on: May 25, 2006, 07:06:00 am »
Dueling is optional.  I guess I'm thinking of extending that idea - if your guild wants to claim (for instance) a market booth, or (in the future) some kind of guild 'frathouse' that you can buy in game, then they could also defend it.  Rather than let anyone in, they can guard the front door.  The would be grouped and attack anyone who didn't have permission to enter.

You could run past them if they refused to fight (and they would, if you were an especially dangerous type).  Similarly, if there are bullies blocking the water fountain (gold mine, smith), etc. you would need to bring an army to clear them out.

I'm thinking this is more relevant in the hypothetical future where building ownership and so on is possible.  It doesn't make sense to buy a house or a guild hall if everyone is going to run through the living room looking for loose items.  Rather than have the game control these things, it would make sense (to me) to use a solution that mimics real life.

I realize its not an 'infantry' game, but I'm thinking more like west side story - jets vs. sharks.

Kevin

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Re: A radical change to all forms of combat.
« Reply #42 on: May 31, 2006, 12:28:00 pm »
 \\o// I think these ideas are mostly good, however i think the combat system does need a little changing.
The current system relies on lagtime[ping]. you challenge someone and you start spam-clicking bloody attack, hoping to get about 10clicks per second or so. The other person, moves teh accept button over the bloody button and begins a bombardment of the buttons. That is ok, but then [as you will always have] one guy lives next door to the server with a 1ms ping and i live 450ms away. The guy with the low ping hits the button first according to the server and gets the first hit in. This is sadly not very realistic. as he would normally mash the oponent with 450 ping to a pulp before he even knew he had clicked accept.

Now i dont know how to fix that? a total change of the system maybe? i dont know, Maybe a leveling and combat system something like Oblivion's [new sp game by bethesda] combat system would be good, ok its an SP game, but surely the combat way can be taken from that??
At the moment "turn" based battle just doesnt work as there are too many OOC exploits with it. PLers celebrate while others just ignore it all.

Also: its a little off topic but its been mentioned, walking through people, it sucks. You put people in the way of a room where you are talking in private, like a guard, and then someone comes up, you tell them to stop IC, but they just walk right through you, pick up everything in the room, and then just walk back out through you. That needs to be fixed somehow, a good idea was mentioned, if the duel is declined the char becomes walk-throughable. Maybe there should be non-combat stances like, guard and normal. so when you are normal you can be walked through? but when on guard you have to decline(/timeout) to be walked through.

I dont know what the devs are planning, but i hope its something along these lines? because at the moment, PVP and fighting is just as pointless as stabbing oneself with a paperclip in an attempt to make cheese.
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Re: A radical change to all forms of combat.
« Reply #43 on: May 31, 2006, 04:33:17 pm »
When they come round to doing a little work on combat again, after the rest of the more important stuff, they should probably consider the use of "hitboxes". This could be bring a very subtle but interesting change to where you hit an enemy. Or as I understand it anyway. Basically the animation picks a box to hit at random and then changes the original path of object A to hit one of the points on object B.

So instead of just hacking through someones torso all the time, or cleaving through their heads, you could have it alter so you go through an arm or the chest etc. Couple this with a little more movement and it would be quite good.

Kerol

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Re: A radical change to all forms of combat.
« Reply #44 on: June 11, 2006, 08:57:58 pm »
I have been playing "Voices of Area 51", an FPS with multiplayer (via internet), for some time now, and have made up my mind a bit about combat mechanics.
Sorry for the long post beforehand ;)

1. Sometime ago I proposed a new way of movement that could solve a bunch of problems, for instance the falling downstairs accidentally, the impossibility to walk really slow, but also a major problem here with combat.
Easy put: Movement should be based on acceleration.
That means, if you press the forward button, you dont move with a predefined velocity but you accelerate (similar to car racing games) linear (or more like    dampened logistic growth) to an upper limit, say 40. When you release the button, you slowly brake until you reach velocity 0. If you press backwards, you accelerate to the limit -20.
In implementation terms that could be realised by start/stop events on pressing and releasing the buttons. When a start event occurs, a package is sent to the server, including a timestamp. The Server calculates an acceleration up to the given limit, until a stop event (+timestamp) reaches the server. The server keeps track of the events and interpolates the position to a given time. The server sends then the calculated position to the client in order to synchronize.

Ingame that would allow very slow motions, smooth acceleration and braking (preventing people from falling downstairs, for instance), but also a pretty easy implementation of modification of velocity limits (for example taking the weight into account) and acceleration (taking agility into account).
That would also make jumping back and forth a lot more difficult, because the backwards-acceleration could be slower than forwards, also the upper limit on running backwards isnt as high as running forwards. For a quick back and forth you'd also need an exorbitant agility.

2. A circle in the middle of the screen could indicate the direction from where the hit came and the amount.

3. Showing the back to the enemy might make critical strikes highly possible.

4. Usually you can grasp a little vial also with a hand that already is carrying a shield or sword, therefor the need to unequip before drinking a healing potion wouldn't be realistic.

5. Eating and drinking normal food and drinks should indeed require to unequip and take a longer time to eat and a much longer time to regenerate the wounds.

6. The effect of a healing potion must not be instantly. It requires time to drink the potion (1-3 sec not being able to attack and loosing the vial when getting hit) and it requires time to heal, depending on the strength of the potion and the amount of HP. Drinking more healing potions should speed up the healing process.
Also healing potions could be regarded as "drugs", meaning that the usage of one sort of healing potion could be limited to 6 potions per (ingame) day, requiring players to take care a lot more.

7. Like in Voices of Area 51 I'd like to see special effects like a strongly shifted visual spectrum when playing a race with nightvision or when using a potion that gets you into a berserk rage.

8. If you get hit on a specific body part, this body part should be affected. For instance every single bodypart could have HP internally and the average could be calculated for the player. If a bodypart gets hit, the effectivity of this part could be reduced.

9. In Jagged Alliance (still one of my favourite tactic games) a player looses HP over time when a wound is not being taken care of.
That however would require a medecine skill and one or two specific items (small and big medecine box, for example). The injuries of a player who is down below 10% of his HP could only be taken care of someone with, say 30 in the medecine skill. The skill level also affects the time how long it takes to take care of the wounds.
In JA the wounds which are taken care of don't heal instantly when being treated, but still count as wounds, as long as they arent regenerated. They are indicated with orange, meaning that they arent regenerated but aren't open (getting worse) neither.

10. A "Follow target" command would be _very_ useful, not only in combat, but also in normal gameplay.

11. Last but not least I think collision detection on entities should be enabled, really. This however isn't an easy thing to balance. Here are some ideas on that:
In general, players can't walk through other players and can't push them away. If a player moves against another player, a comparison between the strength stats of both players could be taken as factor to determine the success of the pushing. Also the velocity and direction of the two players (even the weight) might be taken into consideration whether the pushing action was successful.
Pulling would require an extra command, because it depends also on the agility and how you grasp the other.

If this automatic push/pull mechanic is too sensible for abuse, an alternative might be considered:
On right-click an extra push/pull button is available, making it possible to push/pull the target for 2-5 seconds, depending on the difference between of Str/Agi and the direction the acting player is moving.
However, I see some potential abuse in this idea, it surely needs some more thought.


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