Author Topic: A radical change to all forms of combat.  (Read 8710 times)

Vengeance

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Re: A radical change to all forms of combat.
« Reply #45 on: June 21, 2006, 03:51:28 am »
Hi Kerol,

#1 is hard to do well, but could be done with some effort I suppose.  I like 2, 3, 4, 8 and 10.  Some of those are major rule changes though and will require an act of Congress (i.e. Talad) to change, which isn't going to happen.

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Kerol

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Re: A radical change to all forms of combat.
« Reply #46 on: June 21, 2006, 02:22:34 pm »
Hi Venge,

Thanks for the positive response :)
but
Quote
major rule changes though and will require an act of Congress (i.e. Talad) to change, which isn't going to happen.
not so pessimistic  :D

We will see what the future brings ^^


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Pestilence

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Re: A radical change to all forms of combat.
« Reply #47 on: June 21, 2006, 05:26:18 pm »
1. Like the idea. Would definately help when climbing down stairs and such although I still feel that it shouldn't have to be solved this way but well atleast it would be somewhat solved this way ;)

2. hmm don't like the idea of something in the middle of the screen, but when long distance attacks a direction would be nececary to not get highly unfair advantages for the ones who use them.

3. That I would love. Getting some tactics in fighting is definately a plus.

4. Agree. and even one has to wonder how much you want these kind of things to be realistic. i mean true it can be used with a little misuse but I get the impression it is more often used by people who are trying to take on stronger monsters and I like that people think of ways like that to kill the dragon so to say ;)

5. Also agree but then again feel normal food should have more effect then it has atm. Eating fish or bread atm hardly does anything that really matters and is about the worsed loot you can get ;)

6. 3 seconds of drinking sounds a bit long. Think the healing should be spread over time more like regenerating, but the drinking itself shouldn't take more then one or two hits.

7. Should happen ofcourse but that is for the future so can't really comment on that as it's simply not implemented yet ;)

8. Sounds like fun but might be hard to implement without giving the player to many things he has to look at during combat.

9. Perhaps something like you loose hitpoints till you used something like a healing potion to heal some hitpoints?

10. Follow would be really handy when showing people around. With lag and such following someone is sometimes really hard and seeing if someone is following you almost impossible.

11. Think players should indeed not be able to walk thruough other players. Definately with things like group combat this makes for nice combo's with spellcasters behind meleepeople and for people to look for places where there stategy works best. Were it a place with a lot of room or a little.

Pulling however I don't think should be implemented. Hard to pull someone who is trying to cut you.
« Last Edit: June 21, 2006, 05:28:55 pm by Pestilence »

Ghrynn

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Re: A radical change to all forms of combat.
« Reply #48 on: June 23, 2006, 02:30:46 pm »
How I imagine fight:
Man is very aware of not to be hurt by the opponent (that depends on his rage). They are moving in circle waiting for good opportunity to attack (weak spot, ballance/movement of enemy which make him easier to hit, that depends on fighter experience). When attack is performed the opponent is trying to defend (parry, dodge) and possibly use this situation to perform counterattack (which is in many cases the crucial moment in fight because the opponent is distracted by failed attack and he's not in optimal defensive position). The opponents are not running around because while wearing armour and drawn weapons it's very exhaustive. I think it's the same for humans and creatures (imagine fight between human and tiger).

If fighter decide to cast a spell he should be sure he won't be distracted by opponent (be more distanced from him).

When one of the combatants decide to flee he should throw away his weapons to run more effective (or at least sheathe his weapons), turn to opponent his back and run for life. Running backward is not much effective as long it is slower than few forward leaps of opponent. The speed of running should be determined by current fatique and current encumberance.

How I imagine fight in PS:
IMO is not possible to perform realtime fights like in Oblivion (which I like very much and it's very close to my imagination of fights) due lags. But my conception of turn based fight is some kind of boring. This could be improved to queue some kind special (power) attack. I like this idea because it's easier to anime to look it nice.

minetus

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Re: A radical change to all forms of combat.
« Reply #49 on: June 23, 2006, 03:17:40 pm »
for me the ideal combat theme would be a mix of arcade fighting games (movement combos etc) combined with the skill each skill would require a combination of movements before you could  make the skill ex: (forward, back, forward, skill"leap attack") could make more complex combos for stronger skills.
also this would also add skill to the fighting it self..

i tink the duel system could be made with dynamic invitations helping the RP factor:
example:
Code: [Select]
removing the request window, and passing it to the chat window. say playerA asks playerB for duel
playerA:(activates "duel" comand on playerB) playerA points his sword to playerB!
playerB:(activates "Yes" command) playerB accepts the duel!

open PVP in restricted areas, this includes arenas for (FFA's,Team combat, tournaments), Guild Raid(no alliances) maps, alliance war's(octarch rulership maybe) raid maps...
this places would be away from comonly used pathways so it wouldnt mess with those that arent apologists with the idea of PK, also they would be marked as dangerous places(a confirmation/warning could be needed).
safe zones in this places should be high areas were you could go out but not return(alternatively a timer to reenter the safezone), to avoid border griefing.

other sports competitions: capture the flag, obstacle race, etc

Seytra

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Re: A radical change to all forms of combat.
« Reply #50 on: June 23, 2006, 09:05:34 pm »
As before, my view on a usable combat system is that it needs to be either a fully manual or a fully automeated one. Since the fully manual ones are FPS/arcade style and depend heavily not only on lag, but also on player skill in handling their I/O devices, player's own I/O mechanisms and attributes (reaction speed, experience, etc.), they are IMO very much unsuited for something like PS that places emphasis on not the player, but the character. It's not surprising that in an FPS you don't usually find a rich set of skills and stats, even though that notion isn't completely absent in some.
Thusly, the only viable way is to make it in no way depend on the player or the player's location / wealth, and that means a fully automated system. Once combat begins, the server takes control of the characters, with the player being able to watch and do strategic control only, like select stance, select specific attacks, weapons, potions / magic, fleeing and so forth. Granted, this control option still leaves room for exploits as well as being affected by player / system specs, but in a severely limited way.

Yes, using the system that is in place ATM can be fun. Exactly as much fun as glitching into normally inaccessible places, in fact. However, both are not in accordance with what PS wants to be: a realistic and nondicriminatory game. The devs are striving to remove the glitching part of PS, as it certainly is neither realistic (though often more realistic than the actual implementation ATM (climbing...)) nor IC (walking through walls isn't for everyone...) nor nondiscriminatory (some glitching requires good (ab)use of the controls). Therefore, the same must be done for combat, and the, or one of the, reasons little progress is being made there is because 1) so many people focus on combat as a cheap way of gaining "fame", 2) so many people are used to FPSses and love them (like me), but don't see (or want, or can't) the very different genre of these games that any move to better the system results in great whining throughout the playerbase, and I'm pretty sure that at least some devs suffer the same issues, while the glitchers usually are not only well aware that they are bypassing / abusing things, but don't create fame by doing it over and over, but by doing it first. It's still OOC and sort of cheating, though not malicious and not harmful (except for those unfortunate occasions where malicious "fighters" glitch into unreachable position and kill from there, usually targetting newbies).

Kerol's suggestions would work perfectly well with a fully (or almost fully) automated system, and I like most of them (collision detection will be excessively abused, and I see a giant pile of /petitions asking GMs to remove block-griefers over and over again. I can completely shut down Ojaveda by creating an army of alts that simply idles blocking all entrances and passageways. While timing out would technically work, having to wait for the timeout each and every time one needs to pass through one of my 100 hypothetical alts will severely slow down gameplay, with absolutely no RP benefit at all). Even with only a few block-griefers in strategic locations like Harnquist's, gameplay can be severely disturbed, and we should never underestimate the extreme lengths people go to in order to cause grief to others (sometimes, mostly by the griefers, also referred to  as "being funny").

To follow up on Kerol's sig quote:
Quote
No system can compensate the lack of personal opinion.
No system can compensate lack of common sense. And since common sense starts lacking immediately when there is any chance of getting away with it, if we don't very carefully design a system to be abuse-proof to the maximum degree possible, we will end up constantly asking ourselves "why is there so much abuse?".

minetus

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Re: A radical change to all forms of combat.
« Reply #51 on: June 23, 2006, 09:38:33 pm »
could be both types altho it would be twice the hassle..
you got fighter and mage types

fighters could be more manual and mages more automated or the inverse, or a lill bit of each in both
you could have a set of skill that would be more manual and another set more automatic...

i guess the question is what would fit in better within planeshift goals.
but to have automatic combat, whats the point of fighting? everything would be prewritten before the fight eaven starts, while the manual fight gives the skill factor to the fight and makes the small fish actually have a slim chance, because while the skills help they arent every thing.

lag wouldnt interfere with the casting progress unless it would be graphic lag, since it would be controled locally and the result is what it would be sent to server, much like it would be when automatic.

Seytra

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Re: A radical change to all forms of combat.
« Reply #52 on: June 23, 2006, 10:04:28 pm »
i guess the question is what would fit in better within planeshift goals.
but to have automatic combat, whats the point of fighting? everything would be prewritten before the fight eaven starts, while the manual fight gives the skill factor to the fight and makes the small fish actually have a slim chance, because while the skills help they arent every thing.
Not at all. Just as there is now, there obviously will be a random factor involved. That doesn't just refer to the actual chance to hit, but also to the attack / combination / sequence selected by each party (influenced by what the supervising players set to be used, possibly with percentage). Even cloned chars, everything being completely equal, including client settings and no interaction of the supervising player, would still not only show a 50/50 chance of winning for each, but also a different sequence of attacks, defenses and outcomes each fight. Actions and responses would be not pre-calculated, but done on the fly, taking into account what happened beforehand, and leaving said room for supervisor changes.
Thusly, there will still be the chance of the low skilled char to defeat the high skilled one. It would just not be possible to destroy the balance by employing so called "tactics" and other exploit tricks to get around the system on the weak char's part.
The combat system in PS is not meant for ranking player abilities. That is what an FPS is for. If you want an FPS, play an FPS. If you want a banana, eat a banana, don't cut an apple into banana-like shape, soak it in artificial flavourings and colours in order to make it a banana for everyone else, while the ones planting the apple tree wanted apples, not bananas...
lag wouldnt interfere with the casting progress unless it would be graphic lag, since it would be controled locally and the result is what it would be sent to server, much like it would be when automatic.
Rule #1 in multiuser environments: Never, ever trust the client. This means that nothing that has any effect must be calculated on the client. The server must do everything, and check everything that comes from the client, like commands, for plausibility and legitimation.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2006, 10:07:10 pm by Seytra »

Kerol

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Re: A radical change to all forms of combat.
« Reply #53 on: June 23, 2006, 10:04:47 pm »
Quote
As before, my view on a usable combat system is that it needs to be either a fully manual or a fully automeated one.
I think the plans for the fighting system in PS are semi-automatical as everything else (or at least everything else has the tendency atm) - like the crafting system for instance.

Quote
Exactly as much fun as glitching into normally inaccessible places, in fact.
I believe to recall a high dev stating that at some point all places can be explored, in any way. Thus there will be no "normally inaccessible places".

Quote
Since the fully manual ones are FPS/arcade style and depend heavily not only on lag, but also on player skill in handling their I/O devices, player's own I/O mechanisms and attributes (reaction speed, experience, etc.), they are IMO very much unsuited for something like PS that places emphasis on not the player, but the character. It's not surprising that in an FPS you don't usually find a rich set of skills and stats, even though that notion isn't completely absent in some.

Well. The war against lag certainly hasn't ended yet, there are promising ideas and developments recently that could reduce lag to a minimum, allowing more manual handling. Those are not only all server/client problems/bugs that willl be solved over time, a bad reachability of the server that could be solved with multiple servers, but also external developments like internet2 (the physical glassfiber high-speed network backbone that is spreading recently, together with vdsl).

With those developments, let's assume a lag-free future.
One problem indeed is the hardware on the client side. But a bigger problem I see there are disabled people. I really wish to see in the far future PS being at least to a high degree if not fully barrier-free. And there a hybrid manual-automatic combat system would be the best solution. If you want support those people it is thinkable to make it possible to disable a lot of features and set an automation instead.

For instance, select a lowest HP limit and when reached let the server overrule the client -> automatically run away/yield. That could help now already, as this feature would be lag independant.

My vision is to have the FPS-style features in combat, but to make it possible to exchange those with automatic ones, give the FPS lovers and haters and disabled people (in any kind of way, including not being able to buy costly hardware) appropriate ways to play.


Quote
collision detection will be excessively abused, and I see a giant pile of /petitions asking GMs to remove block-griefers over and over again. I can completely shut down Ojaveda by creating an army of alts that simply idles blocking all entrances and passageways. While timing out would technically work, having to wait for the timeout each and every time one needs to pass through one of my 100 hypothetical alts will severely slow down gameplay, with absolutely no RP benefit at all). Even with only a few block-griefers in strategic locations like Harnquist's, gameplay can be severely disturbed, and we should never underestimate the extreme lengths people go to in order to cause grief to others (sometimes, mostly by the griefers, also referred to  as "being funny")
Although the example with the 100 alts is highly unlikely, I also see the problem with people blocking ways without means (for players) to remove them. That is why I suggested the push/pull option in the first place. I'd love to hear ideas how to solve the problems Seytra posted as I (it rarely happens but isnt impossible ;) ) have no concrete idea yet.

Edit: stupid typos...
« Last Edit: June 23, 2006, 10:10:09 pm by Kerol »


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minetus

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Re: A radical change to all forms of combat.
« Reply #54 on: June 23, 2006, 11:20:11 pm »
a option could be to raise the height of jump to be able to pass above it but this wouldnt work in all situations.
crawl action to disable colision detections beetween PC's? problems, polys of the diferent player mesh's would intersect causing bad effects. animations would be needed.
pushing is bad, people will exploit it to pull people off cliffs, into npc mobs etc altho this will only happen if the player is afk. incombat pushing will keep pulling characters back.

Seytra

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Re: A radical change to all forms of combat.
« Reply #55 on: June 24, 2006, 12:01:27 am »
Even with pushing (and I don't really see much difference to pulling, but it doesn't matter), and having it based on stats, you can't prevent abuse. It might make it possible for some well-levelled char to remove someone blocking the entrance, but it'll still be possible to create a char that is tailored towards blocking from the beginning and still get the majority of players griefed.
Furthermore, most, or at least a large percentage of all blocking would likely occur for OOC reasons. It is then quite unreasonable to expect players to be content with calling on well-levelled chars, provided any are online, to remove the block over and over again.
In order to have this work as intended, you'll need a very complete set of not only animations, but also movement modifiers like the suggested crouching, jumping, etc..
And while this is the wishlist, you can't really enable the simple to enable things now in order to make things more realistic, while the things that actually make the idea interesting and realistic have no chance of being implemented anytime soon[TM]. It's like enabling /attack but not having defense, block, parry, yield, etc. even in sight.

Monk_

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Re: A radical change to all forms of combat.
« Reply #56 on: July 08, 2006, 10:10:06 am »
I'm mostly in agreement with Drahlian on this one. The H&R system may not be what the devs intended, but it's probably better, and it gives training and skill a great balance.

It's good skill is important. Making combat purely the realm of PLers would be lame.

Of course Drahlian and I are biased for this action-packed format because we're good at it. If two people have uber training, but one has no skill, their training is of no worth, which should not be the case.

I think solutions should be simple-stupid, so I'm going to suggest a bar which fills up really quickly if you run at all, and takes a bit of time to drain. Unless this bar is empty, your strikes are far less accurate and powerful. Arcadey people can make use of their skills, but not to the point of neutralising character training.

This would reduce the impact of hit-and-run melee, without removing movement which enriches combat and adds a lot to the strategy of fights. Why couldn't someone good at climbing go up something high then rain arrows on the swordsmaster? When climbing is implemented, and jumping buffs agility, and chars can glide etc., this will add even more. Even now it means players have to think, not just go blindly into a fight because they PLed their SS and they will Pwn you.

As before, my view on a usable combat system is that it needs to be either a fully manual or a fully automeated one.
Give players a choice. Fully automated can only be accepted when the chars are toe-to-toe and they can't move until combat is finished. Manual can be accepted by players wanting to run around. It can be initiated from any distance, allowing chases and hunts.

What if the game mechanics would be made so that they are meant to be 'exploited' like that, making them a part of combat mechanics?
The single best decision Id Software ever made for the success of their Quake franchise was formalising the strafejump/bunnyhopping bug, instead of 'fixing' it.

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Kerol

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Re: A radical change to all forms of combat.
« Reply #57 on: July 08, 2006, 02:03:00 pm »
Quote
It's like enabling /attack but not having defense, block, parry, yield, etc. even in sight.
Then we need to enable the conter before the attack :)

Quote
New scripting operations to add support for new spells like transmutation and
invisibility (the spells are not yet in, but the engine now supports those)
Quote from the changelog. One could sneak behind the blocker without him being able to notice. With a better movement system, one could jump or fly over the other.

The main idea is having collision detection for chars enabled. If it is such a hassle to balance push/pull, why not leaving it out completely.
Collision detection can be implemented without big trouble just by allowing to "move through" somebody in one step, not with a continous movement.
More detailed:
Two persons A and B. A is standing at a spot and B stands in front of A. B wants to get past A.
B starts to move against A, and does so for a little while (like three seconds). The system detects the movement against a person and moves B past A, the direction B was facing. A isn't affected directly by that action at all (except that A isn't able to move in the same spot where B is standing).
Consequence: If the time to detect a movement against a person is high enough, it has exactly the combat-improving effect (as you are not able to move continously against a person in combat) that is being aimed for. Blocking doors is not easy anymore, as you would have to move forward and backward to prevent a continous movement against your char. But the moment you move back, the other person can move forward. So you only can delay a pass, not prevent it.
The only problem I can see there is what to do if two or more persons directly after another are blocking a passage, not just one. If the system moves the person who wants to go through past the last blocker, it is imaginable to have a chain of people allowing to kind of "teleport" someone over a distance.
The other extreme would be to disallow movement past more then one person.
I can think of two possible solutions:
1. Count the persons to move past and retard the movement per person.
2. "Glitch" the person who wants to go past inbetween the two blocking persons who are standing right next to each other, so it would be only a one-person movement each time (thats the first time I propose a graphic glitch as solution   ::| ).
« Last Edit: July 08, 2006, 05:57:31 pm by Kerol »


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zanzibar

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Re: A radical change to all forms of combat.
« Reply #58 on: July 08, 2006, 10:02:35 pm »
I'm mostly in agreement with Drahlian on this one. The H&R system may not be what the devs intended, but it's probably better, and it gives training and skill a great balance.

It's good skill is important. Making combat purely the realm of PLers would be lame.



So you want Planeshift to be an arcade game?
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Monk_

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Re: A radical change to all forms of combat.
« Reply #59 on: July 09, 2006, 12:30:05 am »
So you want Planeshift to be an arcade game?
I want PlaneShift to be a balanced game.


Primarily I want it to be an RP game, which it intends to be. When conflict arises in RP, the players have to agree on how the outcome will be decided.

To quote Vengeance "RP Sucks". He was referring to how it's always best to be able to actually do what you're roleplaying with real game features. Secondly, I know most players would rather a fight contain a little excitement and uncertainty about the outcome. So it's better for a system to cater for a wider range of combat possibilities.

If someone has no player skill and only has time for RP not training, unfortunately no combat system can cater for them. The only way they can have a chance is to RP the fight, and it's pretty disfunctional without pre-agreement on who will win.

The option for quazi-automatic battle would be good, as it would give uncoordinated players with training a viable option. But more importantly If there is no option for combat involving skill, far less players will agree to use the game mechanic.

If a combat system neglects the element of skill, then a large section of players who would normally have faith in their skill and the courage to face people with more training are effectively put in the same situation as noobs and pure-RPers (they can die, or RP the fight).

With no skill involved, few people will accept a duel knowing they have no chance. Far less often will players who RP an argument happen to be close enough in training to have an uncertain outcome. Gone will be the days of marvelling at characters' finesse and betting on the outcomes in Proglin's tournaments. Even when there is a closely-levelled match with uncertainty about the outcome, the most exciting thing will be one of them falling over.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2006, 12:50:25 am by Monk_ »