/report and even more exciting!!!!!

[Karyuu]

Luckily Janner, you aren't sending emails.

[LigH]

After reading so many "slightly off-topic" replies, I will just tell you my opinion here (after a brief chat with Bereror) and then probably never look at that pile of a thread again, some people obviously prefer nitpicking over basic problem solving...

It is definitely necessary for a report to see the chat log of the reporter. Because: It is not only interesting what kind of offending messages he received, but also in which context - and what he maybe did *not hear*. You will probably agree: Only half the truth is already a whole lie. There are bugs like the occasional "deafness" after crossing sector borders, not sure if they already are reliably fixed; but until we know for sure, we must assume that not everyone is able to hear the same as the person right next to him. Also talk ranges will be taken into account here. And it is always possible that a half-understood discussion may lead into a feeling of offense. Furthermore, the reporter is able to give consent to reveal his private chat in a report.

Instead, the reported target will need a certain level of protection agains report abuse. If not, it would be possible to reveal even private talk of people who are not at all offensive at that moment, just because he made an enemy who takes "revenge" by reporting and limiting the privacy of the player being reported without emergency. Especially when the reporter tries to get advantage of the fact or rumour, that his target may often talk privately about topics the staff might not enjoy...

But here I would even think, that GMs who were using e.g. criticism out of private talk from a report against the target would tend towards a level of corruption. So this would be a strong argument agains reporting the target's logs. Please note that this is just a "what-if" thought, for the case that target logs were stored! I did not call the GMs as a whole, or one specific GM, corrupt here!

So far, my personal opinion. I would enjoy if it was not used much for further nitpicking.

[Verrliit]

I do not argue with the report function, and I like Kerol's proposed improvements to it.

I do have a major problem with the idea that a GM can eavesdrop on anyone's /tells at will.

In response to many posts, no one said that GMs can't do that.

Instead, there are attempts to justify it.


Not only is a /tell on Laanx precisely equivalent to a PM chat on the public IRC servers of Freenode, or an AOL IM, but even the official PS text says to use a /tell to whisper privately to a friend. 

The expectation of privacy would remain quite clear however, even if the server were to suddenly stop saying how to use a /tell.


I find it disturbing how passionately some are insisting that they have to eavesdrop on /tells.


I find it disturbing as well, that replies to my posts would contain terms like "insane", and "retarded".

Personally attacking me, is not the response of those who feel they are firmly in the right.

[Karyuu]

They aren't attacking you, they are attacking your weird arguments.

I have said time and time again in my replies to you that GMs cannot "eavesdrop" on anyone's /tell at will. What you don't understand about this is beyond me, but I am willing to offer further explanations as needed. The only way a GM can look at a player's /tells is if the report function is used. If it is used without any reason, the reporter will be severely punished and the useless log will be removed immediately.

We provide you with a service, and we have every right to monitor the use of that service. Is there anything further that you would like explained?

[Bereror]

GMs cannot eavesdrop anyone's tells. They can use their "invisibility" and eavesdrop public chats, but not tells.

The current report function is implemented in a way that is functionally equal to sending the log files from your own PC without the ability to edit them. I don't see any privacy issues here since it is your decision to give them away.

[Xordan]

I find it disturbing as well, that replies to my posts would contain terms like "insane", and "retarded".

Well at least they're accurate about that...

Imo, we can do what we like and if you don't like it, don't play, and no I don't care if you play or not. Maybe we should add a small section stating that we record such info in our license agreement so people can't complain. It's perfectly legal for us to record anything we like. Just like websites may keep logs of what is done on them, we may keep logs of all info that passes through our server.

[Josellis]

Verrliit, if the privacy policy or the Licence and Agreement says "All message sent/received while playing the game or any service provided by PlaneShift can be viewed by any authorised, this includes but is not restricted to Adminstrators and Game Masters" then, you have absolutely NOTHING to say about it, if you installed and use PlaneShift and if those statements existed, you CAN DO ANYTHING about it. But there, they are not clear Privacy Policy or Licence and Agreement, so I am afraind you aren't right or wrong (and no one is until there is a privacy policy or a license and agreement). I must say also that I didn't find anywhere here a statement which clearly says that "Any information collected on this website will not be delivered to any third parties", so yes Verrliit, your SOO precious privacy is at risk, but I trust that the DEVs/GMs won't tell in the street to everyone where you live, your real name etc.

[LigH]

I know only one kind of people who would be able to read tells:

People who have direct access to the database tables. Count those on one hand!

All the others will onle see public chat, and a few lines from the reporter's log when a report was taken.

No GM can read private tells in general.

[Janner]

 That was in reply to a previous post.

  I thought I was pointing out a posable problem area, seams I was right. Also would like to point out we are encouraged to point out posable as well as problems in game, part of  being a tester, not a excuse to kick some one in the teeth because you don't agree with them. I fell very strongly that Verrliit is owed a apology,as she is only doing what we are meant to be doing.
 If I am wrong then say so but don't try to kick me I bight back.
 Also saying if you don't like it you don't have to play, very encouraging to see this why does anyone bother to play, test your own game if you truly believe that take vastly many more years to even think about getting a game out.

 

[Nilrem]

I tried to make a lenghty post before, that could serve to fix ideas, as well as expose mine. It seems I failed in the purpose.

Situation:

1) We had a non working report function that needed to be addressed, as harassments were made, as it's reported in the BT.

2) Report function is fixed, and implements the "backwards" tracing. A dilemma arises, whose log to use, reporter or reported one. (I tried to state pro/cons of each solution. My suggestion has never been log both.)

3) Seeing concerns about privacy, I tried to suggest a method that could protect as much as possible that privacy (intimacy better, thanks Syilph) intrusion that some might feel, through a filtering system.

4) That filtering system is, right now, not implemented. Having that situation in mind, the best solution, to my eyes, was to have the reporter logs used. Because in that way the reporter and no other has the power to show or not that intimacy. As we need a report function running, I supported the have the reporter log form, since the filtering option wasn't yet implemented.

IF that option is ever considered, then surely Seytra, don't worry, tells will be surely filtered (just using the name of the reported should be enough "reported tells you" "you tell reported") so with that, I thought, any intimacy concerns would be solved, and the report would be equally useful (to my eyes).

If that filtering option is ever included, then the reported logs could be used instead of the reporter ones, without having a significant difference.

I tried now to be more concise. Let's all try to aim for a constructive suggestion posting.

[Karyuu]

I think at this point we should just see how the system Bereror originally implemented works before suggesting modifications - that is, taking the logs of the person typing /report. If issues arise, they will be addressed then instead of now, as this is becoming a messy discussion. Volunteering your logs has no breach of privacy at all, especially if the /tell filter is put in place, so there should be no problems in that department.

Hopefully everyone will be satisfied and no tweaks will be necessary.

[Syilph]

I'm sorry to say this Verrliit, Janner and all those who whine about privacy being disregarded by the GMs but I feel pretty offended by these complaints. And it seems I'm not the only one. So don't complain when people will react the same way because from what I understand so far from this useless thread, all the GMs are perverted voieurs that have nothing better to do all day but to listen to what other people talk.

The report system was implemented to protect YOU from harassment, NOT to alow the GMs to evesdrop on your not-important "I-don't-care-about-it" conversation. Again, I repeat, you have to be /reported for ar GM to see your /tells and whatever the death realm you were talking about during the time you are logged. This can happen in 2 situations:
1) You offended somebody and in this case you have NO RIGHT to whine about being reported.
2) Somebody thought it is fun to report you (had that happen to me too once O.o) and in that case the person who is abusing the /report command and making us read useless logs will be punished.

I still don't see what is the problem...

[Janner]

I'm sorry to say this Verrliit, Janner and all those who whine about privacy being disregarded by the GMs but I feel pretty offended by these complaints. And it seems I'm not the only one. So don't complain when people will react the same way because from what I understand so far from this useless thread, all the GMs are perverted voieurs that have nothing better to do all day but to listen to what other people talk.

The report system was implemented to protect YOU from harassment, NOT to alow the GMs to evesdrop on your not-important "I-don't-care-about-it" conversation. Again, I repeat, you have to be /reported for ar GM to see your /tells and whatever the death realm you were talking about during the time you are logged. This can happen in 2 situations:
1) You offended somebody and in this case you have NO RIGHT to whine about being reported.
2) Somebody thought it is fun to report you (had that happen to me too once O.o) and in that case the person who is abusing the /report command and making us read useless logs will be punished.

I still don't see what is the problem...

 It seams you mist my post saying "But i do see the need to access it if a player is being rude ect. So I give my permission to accesses it in my case if needed  " also like to pint out not once in this thread have i complained "whine about privacy being disregarded by the GMs"

[Verrliit]

I know only one kind of people who would be able to read tells:

People who have direct access to the database tables. Count those on one hand!

All the others will onle see public chat, and a few lines from the reporter's log when a report was taken.

No GM can read private tells in general.

GMs cannot eavesdrop anyone's tells. They can use their "invisibility" and eavesdrop public chats, but not tells.

Thank you so much, sweeties.  That was the only technical concern that I had issue with.

As for those who decided to flame me, rather than simply provide such an answer:

I find it disturbing as well, that replies to my posts would contain terms like "insane", and "retarded".

Well at least they're accurate about that...

Imo, we can do what we like and if you don't like it, don't play, and no I don't care if you play or not. Maybe we should add a small section stating that we record such info in our license agreement so people can't complain. It's perfectly legal for us to record anything we like. Just like websites may keep logs of what is done on them, we may keep logs of all info that passes through our server.

I was concerned by the idea of a GM reading private /tells, without anyone knowing...

I insulted no one, at any time.


/report Xordan.

[Kerol]

The only problem I see in all this off-topic chatter is that we miss an EULA with a clear statement on privacy data, intimacy and under what circumstances devs and GMs will take advantage of their right to read through logs.
This problem can and will be solved; and after it became clear for everyone that devs don't eavesdrop although they could (I think they have better things to do ^^) and GMs simply can't read /tells without /report I think we can go back on topic.

So far I only got one reply on my suggestion to review what has been logged, what do other people (Bereror?) think about it?

I don't like the suggestion to filter /report in any way, as many people insult in public, no matter what. And as GMs are supposed to take players logs only as hint and not as evidence (as they can be altered), griefers will just do all insults in public.. and would be pretty safe as long as a GM isn't around and hear it by himself.
If only the communication between reporter and target is logged, it would be very hard for GMs to find out eventual missing pieces in many cases.