Author Topic: The "don't spoil" spirit has gone too far.  (Read 14261 times)

sesmi

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Re: The "don't spoil" spirit has gone too far.
« Reply #45 on: July 20, 2006, 09:38:07 pm »
People need to learn how to think logically and use common sense... And they should also learn that in life, there are no spoilers. If you lose a sock, you can't just go out on the net and look for spoilers on where it is.

Also, not everything is life is free, sometimes (if not all the time) you must work to earn stuff. Your lunch won't be served on a silver platter... Oh wait, it could...
Well unless you are rich, someone won't offer you a ferari for free.
I don't think you understand what i'm talking about.

Cha0s

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Re: The "don't spoil" spirit has gone too far.
« Reply #46 on: July 21, 2006, 05:53:29 am »
Oi, what a headache. Alright, well now that I'm back, I'm going to weigh in on this.

Spoilers... hrmm, what's a spoiler? A quest solution. That's a spoiler. Can't think of anything else. In short, don't tell people the answers to quests. As far as in-character answers to quests, I'd be careful. To use an earlier example, "Have you seen a lost child recently?" "Yea sure... there was one down on the plaza and one in Ojaveda and one out on the road to the Magic shop..." Just because your character completed the quest once does not mean your character knows who the heck this other person is asking about. Unless the asker is very specific and unless your character knows that whatever the person is looking for will be in a certain place (people actually move around in real life, believe it or not), he/she shouldn't provide an answer. To mean, this means 99% of the time, in-character quest-answers should not be given. :thumbdown:


Out-of-character: In general, if someone is stuck on a quest, they really shouldn't be given help; they need to figure it out on their own (A. to keep the game interesting, and B. because Talad said so :) ). HOWEVER, the conversation system really sucks now... so if someone is stuck and asks, "How do I get this person to take item X so I can complete the quest?" I have no problem with the specific phrase being provided as long as the person knows the gist of what needs to be said. This still needs to be dealt with in out-of-character channels, though. Hopefully, the conversation system will be improved soon and this exception will become irrelevant, but until then, to prevent frustration, these sorts of answers are probably fine.

If you're confused, as a general rule of thumb: don't help people with quests.  :thumbdown:

Moving on from quests... Game mechanics. There are two categories of game mechanics: the basics and the details. By all means, please impart the basics (moving around, using the various graphical interfaces, etc) to all those who ask (in out-of-character channels, i.e. /tell). Helping newbies with the basics makes their entry into the world a lot smoother and saves everyone headaches down the road. Imparting etiquette and basic information on roleplay also makes things easier. :thumbup:

Then there're the details: "How much strength do I need to wield weapon X?" No one should know the answer to that question (or care), and you should definitely not say the exact number. Your character has no way of knowing just how much muscle it will take to wield said sword: you can't really quantify that. You can say something like, "Well, you need to be pretty strong," but specific numbers? No, no, and no. No one should be discussing any of the specific gameplay mechanics in terms of formulas and numbers. It works against roleplay and puts the emphasis of the game on leveling and stats. "But I want to know if I'll be able to wield sword X before I spend 500,000 tria on it!" Would your character have any way of knowing this beforehand? Not without practicing with the weapon. Maybe your guild has a weapon you can try out, but I doubt most merchants would let you test out a deadly weapon (anyone ever asked if they could try out a gun before buying?). Trying to mess with the stats to produce the most powerful character you can is called munchkinning. Here's the wiki blurb if you're interested:
"A Munchkin is a player who plays a normally cooperative game (usually a role-playing game) to amass as much power and as many kills as possible, whatever the costs to role-playing, the storyline, fairness, logic, or the other players' fun. The term is also frequently used in reference to powergamers and to immature players in general...
Munchkins are infamous for twisting rules and min/maxing. This often leads to exceptionally unrealistic or unusual characters.
Munchkins are often accused of roll-playing, a pun on 'role' that notes how munchkins are often more concerned with the numbers and die rolls than with the roles that they play.
A more neutral use of the term is in reference to novice players, who, not knowing yet how to roleplay, typically obsess about the statistical "power" of their characters rather than developing their characters' personalities."

Munchkins are not wanted in Planeshift. If you want to munchkin, play World of Warcraft. I won't say it can't be fun, but Planeshift is not that kind of game.  :thumbdown:

This has all been pretty negative thus far: "don't do this and don't do that." Well, here's what you can do...
Provide in-character information. This ranges from directions to places (NOTE: directions that your character knows. If you have two characters and the first one has been to the bronze doors while the second one hasn't, the second one should not be directing people on how to get to the bronze doors) to information on how to make money ("Well, you can kill rats and sell their hides to fellow X. I made a fair bit myself this way, back when I was a poor fellow new to the city," etc etc (depending on backstory)). The key thing to remember in everything is: "What does my character know and what would he be willing to share?" You may play a pompous merchant who has no time for foolish paupers (poor people). In that case, a "Get away you filthy wretch," (or something to that effect) would be in order. Always, who is my character? What would he/she do? If your character knows and would help, help. If not, don't. :thumbup:

Sorry that this has gotten so long, but I wanted to be as complete as possible. This is just my take on things and how I personally deal with the issues presented.
Oh, one final note on roleplay: do not try to make OOC things into roleplay; it causes headaches. I'm referring specifically to the sort of thing epitomized by, "What's a cat?" It's not helpful. Instead, in a /tell, very politely explain that there are not cats in Planeshift and that you are an enkidukai. This  policy is ditto for additions/changes/bugs. The fact that you fell through a hole in the world and died doesn't need to be played as, "a wrathful god created a rip in the fabric of space-time and sucked you up." This sort of thing changes the environment of the world. That god takes on a slightly evil shade (I mean, what nice god randomly sucks poor innocent people down rips in the fabric of space-time?). If you really need a roleplay justification for bugs, crashes, etc, try some real-life basics that we don't really discuss in PS on a normal basis, such as: "Had to use the bathroom." "I was thirsty, so I got a drink." "I forgot item X at shop Y/my house." There are plenty of mundane reasons you can use. Don't make every bug into a magical event. And don't thank the gods for the bronze doors (i.e. new areas, new features). Just go on as if they'd always been there.

Anyway, my piece is done (for real this time)... now I think I'll go to sleep. :)
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Siteri Kidachi

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Re: The "don't spoil" spirit has gone too far.
« Reply #47 on: July 22, 2006, 03:03:17 am »
How about RPing around wipes? The strategies Cha0s gave don't work for that.

-You can't say things were always that way, unless you want to also wipe large portions of your character's history. The reason for this is simple: a lot of RPing depends on your items and skills. For example, say that as part of an RP you gave someone a specific sword. Then there was a wipe that eliminated all items. If you RPed that things were always that way, that RP must have never happened because neither one of you has the sword. Similarly, removing items and skills would either drastically change or eliminate from your character's history all winning fights with creatures bigger than rats (because if you never had your weapons or skills they would have killed you!), many trips to the tavern (you had no mugs)... you get the idea.

-You can't come up with a mundane explanation for them. It's not like you could just say "Oops, I tripped over a rock and dropped all my items and money! Oh, and my armor fell off! And I forgot all I ever learned about fighting and crafting!"

So I think wipes are the only time when you have to use an overblown deus ex machina to explain things. I like to say that Laanx punished the greedy citizens of Yliakum by destroying items/money/experience. It's more believable in that situation (in which it happens to everyone) then it is in a situation like falling off the world... and Laanx probably does get a little bit malevolent sometimes! (It's also pretty convenient that it's close to the reason wipes actually happen... people are getting too greedy by exploiting bugs!)

LARAGORN

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Re: The "don't spoil" spirit has gone too far.
« Reply #48 on: July 22, 2006, 03:44:06 am »
I like to say that Laanx punished the greedy citizens of Yliakum by destroying items/money/experience. It's more believable in that situation (in which it happens to everyone) then it is in a situation like falling off the world... and Laanx probably does get a little bit malevolent sometimes!

This is exactly the way I intend on RPing the next wipe :)

All great truthes begin as blasphemies- SHAW
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Verrliit

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Re: The "don't spoil" spirit has gone too far.
« Reply #49 on: July 22, 2006, 03:48:46 am »
Actually, if you have a genuine need to catch severe abusers, it should be pretty easy to index skill levels versus character time logged, without affecting the rest of the players.

Unless it is done to correct a problem that seriously damages play, a wipe is a cure that is worse than the disease.


~Verrliit~
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Xordan

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Re: The "don't spoil" spirit has gone too far.
« Reply #50 on: July 22, 2006, 04:05:12 am »
Unless it is done to correct a problem that seriously damages play, a wipe is a cure that is worse than the disease.

Even if the problem doesn't seriously damage play, it exists and a wipe fixes it. If wiping everything is the quickest way to fix it, then great, we wipe. Obviously it's better if we don't wipe too often, because it means we'll have a wider range of players at different abilities/stages to test for us, there's no other reason as far as I see it. Until we hit version ~0.6 or so (where we'll have what I might count as a game, not a tech-demo), I really couldn't care less if people leave because of wipes. New people always come to replace them. Sometimes we're better off with that happening ;) If people stay through them, then I'm impressed at their dedication.

Karyuu

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Re: The "don't spoil" spirit has gone too far.
« Reply #51 on: July 22, 2006, 05:10:59 am »
I just locked a thread about the wipe :) Why people fail to get the point is beyond me.

There are a few players here who think they already own the world. They think that they own the GMs and the developers too. I'll let you in on a little secret - you don't. The team doesn't just do this for you, we do it for ourselves too. This is our hobby. You share it. If it is easier for us to wipe all characters, we will wipe all characters. You are invited to the dev sandbox, so please play accordingly. If you expect a game at version 0.3 to have no wipes at all, you need to read about a few more games in development.

So enough complaining about wipes "inconveniencing" all your "hard work," because all the hours you put into the game is absolutely nothing compared to what the dev team does.

I mean it :)
Judge: Are you trying to show contempt for this court, Mr Smith?
Smith: No, My Lord. I am attempting to conceal it.

Kerol

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Re: The "don't spoil" spirit has gone too far.
« Reply #52 on: July 22, 2006, 06:06:38 am »
Quote
Would your character have any way of knowing this beforehand? Not without practicing with the weapon. Maybe your guild has a weapon you can try out, but I doubt most merchants would let you test out a deadly weapon (anyone ever asked if they could try out a gun before buying?)
Actually yes. In all shops I know you can take the weapon in your hand and check out the abilities.. and if you aren't to test out the damage done there, you always can check out internet forums and other tests, where you can get the info needed.
As long as you can't test out an item ingame without being able to simply run away with it, and without GMs to help you getting back the item, it's nonsense to ask people to not give stats as reference.

Quote
How about RPing around wipes? The strategies Cha0s gave don't work for that.
As in many threads already mentioned, you can simply ignore a wipe as RPer. And NO, for RP it is not essential to actually have the items or stats and skills.
Quote
This is exactly the way I intend on RPing the next wipe
Feel free to do so, but don't expect other people to adapt to this way of RP.

Quote
because all the hours you put into the game is absolutely nothing compared to what the dev team does.
* Kerol does the devils advocate..
Don't exaggarate ;) I want to see the dev who was working 2000 hours on PS since january this year :) (in comparison to players who are ingame for that time)


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Karyuu

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Re: The "don't spoil" spirit has gone too far.
« Reply #53 on: July 22, 2006, 06:10:39 am »
Players play games :) Developers work. They are not comparable.
Judge: Are you trying to show contempt for this court, Mr Smith?
Smith: No, My Lord. I am attempting to conceal it.

DaveG

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Re: The "don't spoil" spirit has gone too far.
« Reply #54 on: July 22, 2006, 06:19:18 am »
Isn't PS being made for us?
No.
Isn't making this place for us to play in, the reason you are here?
No.
Collectively, we are putting hundreds and perhaps thousands of hours into PS, every day.
Doesn't that deserve more respect than this?
No.

We are not making a custom game to your liking.  We are making the game we want to, and you are welcome to give input which we will listen to, but we are not obligated to use.


Ok, I'm locking this... partially to save Karyuu the trouble, and partially because this thread is too long and I'm too lazy to keep up with it if it continues to grow.  ;)


I will end on this note:  You're all thinking about this waaaaay too much.

Play the damn game.  If you're in the game and vaguely in character there is no such thing as a spoiler.  I don't care if it's not even great IC; if you someone walks up to you and asks "Hey, there's this guy that wants a sack.  You know where I can get one?" feel free to reply "Yeah, there's a guy that sells them in the plaza."  This is a multiplayer game, so please feel free to work together.  If your character would rather tell the guy to go eat himself, that's fine too.  Don't feel that we're going to go around censoring people playing in-game.  So long as you're actually playing (meaning IC) we don't care.  We don't want people posting spoilers all over the Internet, but that's as far as we care to go.  Do people actually think we're going to have invisible GMs everywhere spying on people and telling them how to play?  We want to stop people from having the game done for them by someone else; just play the game.

About wipes:  Wipes annoy people who like to have played the game, rather than like to actually play it.  You don't need a trophy, and I don't care at all that it'll piss you off.  We will wipe, and as I already said, the recent release started the loose timetable for the next one.  (no, we haven't the slightest clue when it'll be)  Wipes can't destroy a character, and even if they did, who cares?  Just make another one.  Just play the damn game.

About time:  Most of you would all shut up quickly if you really knew how much time has been spent developing PlaneShift.  The rest of you, the ones with thousands of hours of gameplay time for a freakin' unfinished pre-alpha test game... there's nothing we can say to you.  Stop playing the damn game.  Go read a book or at far least go watch TV or something.  Something does not become yours by loitering around it for a long time.

Again, stop overthinking all this.

::  PlaneShift Team Programmer  ::

Vengeance

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Re: The "don't spoil" spirit has gone too far.
« Reply #55 on: July 29, 2006, 09:06:31 am »
I know the thread has been locked but I want to chime in and say I agree wholeheartedly with DaveG's last post and with Cha0s' advice about spoilers.   Spoilers only apply to quest solutions.

The other thing I wanted to respond to was this:
Quote
Planeshift is a game meant for roleplay nazis, or elitist roleplayers.  Combat and levelling is incidental to the true substance of the game...

This is 100% false.  From the beginning we wanted to accommodate RPers in a way that we hadn't seen other games do, and I think we are more sympathetic to their concerns and needs than most games are.  The RPers in the last 12 months or so seem to have interpreted that just as Zanz said in the quote, which is that we support them to the exclusion of all others.  This is NOT the case.  People not interested in RP are fully welcome to play the game as they see fit.  The idea is to make a game that supports multiple styles of gameplay, not to make a game which gives petty Napoleons the incentive and right to be offended at the slightest thing and limit others' behaviors.

- Vengeance

Talad

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Re: The "don't spoil" spirit has gone too far.
« Reply #56 on: July 29, 2006, 12:34:46 pm »
As you see the team is made of different people, and we also have sometimes different opinions, but I think the base guidelines are similar.

I just want to make few points clear, even if much of what have been said in this thread ended up with decent conclusions. Most of Chaos post was correct, mainly the part where you have to think with your character knowledge before acting in game. Think to what your char knows and how he will react to that particular question. If someone asks about "computer" tell him you don't know what is it. In general RPer should ignore non RPers. But let's try to make this a bit more consistent:

- "Speaking of IC vs. OOC" is obvisouly an OOC discussion, so players should NOT do that in game. The effort to keep things IC is made by the GMs with private chat, not by players in open chat. My general hint is if a player is acting OOC and you are an RPer, just ignore him. I think most of the issues arise from new players that have not yet grasped the main mechanics and controls of the game, so they just ask to everyone. This will be improved in the future with dedicated areas for newbies, or other filters so expert players will not hear newbies questions. That's becoming an issue and it's something we will take care of. For now just try to stay RP, but DO NOT react badly to players that are not RPing, this is a duty of GMs. For your char OOC people are just weird persons speaking of crazy things, leave them alone.

- The answers given above by DaveG are his personal view of the game development, not the ones of PS Team, in particular the answer if the game is made for the players or not. In my opinion the game is made as we think it will look great, but with many hints and tiips from the players. We often look at the forums and wishlist to understand what people want. We have some basic guidelines that will not change whatever players say (like the Player Killing argument), but in general we are open to discussions, like we are inside the team. I do not like the position of "we do what we want" and is not something we apply in our development. One of the powers of having a live server while developing is to learn from it, and see what players find good or not, what's too complex to use or too easy, etc... I do not like also the position of "stop discussing this argument" because as far as people keep polite and express their point of view there is nothing bad. RP vs PL is a very old topic and surely will remain in the future (if RP survives! :)).

- About roleplay, don't have roleplay take over your char. Your char is not an actor, you are. This means that your char can do whatever is allowed in the Yliakum society. (I know it's not easy to guess :) but for that refer to modern fantasy literature and you can't be much wrong). Speaking in shakespeare style is obviously not needed, and mainly depends on the social status and personality of your char. Just try to enrich the Yliakum world by having your character be part of it, like if he lived many years in those lands. We want to give "guidelines" to people on how to roleplay better and how to have the world look more real and more immersive. We don't want an "RP or be banned" approach. I think that the player base will always have different levels of RPing, we cannot expect everyone to be great roleplayers, so we have to live with it if a minimum threshold is guaranteed. Vengeance post highlights the ability of PS to accomodate all players, I think that's possible in the sense of having different levels of RP, from very basic (not using PS as a 3d chat for computer related topics) up to real roleplay.

- About spoilers. Roleplay has nothing to do with spoilers and I ask to please keep those separate. I say this because given the current status of the game, there can be cases in which a hint from a player to another is a good thing. In general keep Chaos guidelines to avoid giving too many hints.

I would like you to keep in mind that a player has no power on another player, so even if you think he is doing something bad (expecially on RPing) you should not become arrogant with him, saying he is doing wrong. Live your RP life, and ignore him, the GMs will take care of things that "break realism". Ignore all aspects that are not making the PS world more immersive, don't focus nor go against those, or you will have less fun.
« Last Edit: July 29, 2006, 12:42:29 pm by Talad »

Siteri Kidachi

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Re: The "don't spoil" spirit has gone too far.
« Reply #57 on: July 29, 2006, 02:40:56 pm »
I guess I just wasn't thinking enough when I did my last post concerning RPing of wipes, because it is possible to come up with a mundane explanation. Here is one:

"I was on the road to (insert current town here) when I ran into a thief who took my bag of supplies. I tried to fight him off but he was too strong, and he took my weapons too and ran off. I made it back to town where I ran into a poor guy/girl who had also run into this thief. He/she had been training ever since in order to defeat him, and all he/she needed was some armor, so I gave mine to him/her. Because I lost all my food I had to concentrate on surviving rather than doing the things I used to do, so my fighting and crafting skills got rather rusty...

Later I discovered that this thief was actually the greatest thief who ever lived, and he had stolen everything from practically everyone in Yliakum!"

See, that covers everything and you don't have to resort to the supernatural. You can take out parts of the explanation for partial wipes.

Pestilence

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Re: The "don't spoil" spirit has gone too far.
« Reply #58 on: July 29, 2006, 04:52:05 pm »
"Later I discovered that this thief was actually the greatest thief who ever lived, and he had stolen everything from practically everyone in Yliakum!"

hmm yeah clear example of how to RP a wipe lol

I would rather just roleplay like my skills haven't changed at all. Thats a lot more realistic then coming up with a reason like that that in my opinion is very unrealistic. Specially seeing gladiators and rogues are stil just as strong as before.

Suno_Regin

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Re: The "don't spoil" spirit has gone too far.
« Reply #59 on: July 29, 2006, 04:55:02 pm »
My suggestion would tick a lot of people off, but I think after the last wipe we should all...restart. Forget previous roleplays and start over fresh.