Improvement for NPCs

[Zarquon]

When I started playing planeshift, I read the manual first (normally I wouldn't do such a thing... but I could read it in my lunchbreak on the web, while playing PS was impossible due to this firewall thingy our boss insists on to have) and therefore found the hint to say 'about <topic>' to NPC to get information from them. Shortly after I started to explore Hydlaa I happened to stumble across the Library and Jayose...
...I was delighted about the amount of information I got from him  the term Jayoseopedia sprang to my mind 
but still this is pretty static and of course limited by the time the DEVs can spend on feeding the NPCs with information.
But there are some people with more time on their hands then the DEVs - which are of course the players... who spend a lot of time in Yliakum anyway.

...wouldn't it be possible for Jayose or other NPCs to remember what they got told by players?
So if I might say to Jayose:
about Rats: since there are a lot of unexperienced adventurers roaming the sewers (which is indeed a bit disgusting) hunting rats for their little furs rats aren't too much of a problem in Hydlaa.
If another player now asks Jayose 'about rats' he could get a reply like:
I don't know much about this. But Zarquon told me that since there are a lot of unexperienced adventurers roaming the sewers (which is indeed a bit disgusting) hunting rats for their little furs rats aren't too much of a problem in Hydlaa.

Players giving information to NPC this way would have of course resepct some general rules like
- not using offensive language and stay in PS context
- giving hints is okay but no spoilers or exact directions for quests or something
- the wording must be of course chosen in a way that allows the NPC to quote this word by word without grammer mistakes (i.e. no direct speech, if a person is needed the player has to give the information like 'He also mentioned' or something similar so that the quote makes still sense when coming from the NPC)

I am not sure if this would be easy to implement and which the exact impact on the game would be (spoilers for quests would be a problem). Perhaps if an NPC gets information on a topic from different players, he might choose to randomly quote one or the other... It might make sense if players talking to the NPC could rate the information they got to allow remove quotes or set preferred quotes on a certain topic.
You could use some standard sentences to tell the NPCs how good you find the information quoted like "Thank you that is very helpful", "Thank you this is helpful", "That does make no sense", "This is really stupid". If the NPCs recognised that keyphrases, other players could influence which information is kept by the NPCs and which is not.

I have no idea how this could be programmed but it would be nice to have. Comments are of course welcome.
It's just my two trias

[Fayodin]

This sounds like a great idea.  It could really help out.  However of course there are goin to be ppl who tell npc's nasty stuff and misinformation.  That poses a big problem, unless you can track who talks to what npc.

[Zarquon]

Yes of course... that's why I suggest the NPCs should state who they are quoting... This would at least help to ensure that you could find our who thought 'em swearwords or whatever. Alternatively you could of course add some 'censorship' like a GM has to read and approve the new knowledge of an NPC first, before it become public...

[Myrthe]

good idea.although the information could pile up after a while, someone could go through and delete wrong or irrelevant information every so often.

and, since there are a lot of NPCs that people could say things to, Jayose could be the only one. Kinda like a main source of information on any questions that you had. And if someone says something about rats, and then someone else says the same thing or close to it, the Jayose could say: '<first person's name> has already given me that information.' and the first person would still get credit.

[Karyuu]

This sounds like a ton of work for devs and GMs both. I know for one that I would absolutely not have the time to check all NPCs to make sure that nothing inappropriate was said - and we have a lot of them already, and as the world expands we're just going to be adding buckets and buckets. The maintenance alone is already making me cry at the idea.

It's a cool idea, I'll give you that, and that degree of interaction would make the world feel very much alive. But maybe it can be manifested in another way, because I know that neither I nor other GMs would be willing to take on such a workload.

[Zarquon]

Yes, you are right of course... it would be a lot of work to do.
Thats why I suggested initally to attempt to create a system wich
a) ensure you can see who the information is coming from - which allows other players to report profanity or whatever breaks the rules like in the normal game.
b) needs minimum maintainance by the Devs and/or GMs

This could be done by making the NPCs telling who they are quoting and by making the NPCs ask something like 'Do you think this information is useful' - which the players can answer with 'Yes' or 'No'. If the 'Yes to No ratio' falls below a certain level the NPC would discard this information.

If a setup as described above would be possible, only minimum maintainance would be necessary by Devs and GMs - in cases of bugs or other problems.

Prehaps I am expecting to much from the players in such a setup, because there could be problems with the statements players give to the NPCs like:
- There might be syntax errors (possible syntax could be e.g. "<NPC>: about <topic>: <statement>")
- Grammar problems. if a player writes e.g. "Jayose: about Tefusang: Tefusang are big monsters. I recommend not to attack them" Jayose would quote "<player> said: Tefusang are big monsters. I recommend not to attack them" but it would be better if Jayose said: "<player> said: Tefusang are big monsters. He recommends not to attack them". So players should use 3rd person when typing the description wich might be confusing
- Spelling and style: The spelling should of course be correct and the style of the speech should fit the character and fit RP requirements... A statement like a saber has speed 3.0 and slash 2.1 might be useful for other players but would be no good for RP.

For these reason I understand that it would be a problem to attempt such a system to run self organized.
The system would first have to be programmed to allow NPCs learning from players and secondly it would need at least some supervision.
I would happily volunteer to do that (checking every new information before going 'live' in the game, beause I would like to contribute more to Planeshift than just playing it (which is of course a great thing to do).
... But I am not very much of a programmer - and I don't know what skills this would require - so I don't know if I could really help there...

[Kerol]

I only say: <3

[thandar]

I like the idea of expanding the NPS dialogue and think this is a great idea. I hove to bow to Kary's insider knoledge though re the difficulty in policing it and as a programmer it sounds like it would be trick to get right.

As an aside, if Kary or one of the other dev/GMs is watching. Is there a need for volunteers to work on NPC dialogue? and could it be split out so that someone can do just that without having to become a fully fledged dev?


Cheers.

[Karyuu]

Heya Thandar,

NPC dialogue is one of the most important tasks of the Settings team, and I don't think that it's possible to give this task out to folks that are not team members or prospects.. One of the reasons for this is because NPC dialogue often gives out information about the world that comes directly from the Settings team, and to have inside-team knowledge, you need to be part of the team. (NDA and the like.) Maybe in the distant future, when the world is solid and large enough that NPC speech can be fairly frivolous, some sort of contributions will be more viable - but until then there isn't likely to be any such option.

[thandar]

Heya Thandar,

NPC dialogue is one of the most important tasks of the Settings team, and I don't think that it's possible to give this task out to folks that are not team members or prospects...

Ahh. OK. Thanks for that.


Cheers.

[DaveG]

Actually, the idea of having NPCs remember players and portions of their conversations has been discussed within the dev team before.  We would all like to do something to that effect sometime.  Having them not only remember a few things, but actually use parts and relay info from players... that's a bit much.  I can garuntee you that's going to get polluted.  I don't think we really want them to learn dialogue on that level.  Something on a smaller scale, maybe the ability to ask an NPC if a player had recently passed by, might be better.

[zorbels]

I only say: <3

I am actually enjoying my talk with this program.  is that wrong? If it is then I blame Kerol for even posting it, and I may have a scheduled appointment with some men in white suits. Stronith is going to flip out and have to come with, and then my daughter will be left homeless. All your fault Kerol. 

[Kerol]

I am actually enjoying my talk with this program.  is that wrong? If it is then I blame Kerol for even posting it, and I may have a scheduled appointment with some men in white suits. Stronith is going to flip out and have to come with, and then my daughter will be left homeless. All your fault Kerol.  Tongue

  And I thought I'm the only one who enjoys talking to that thing... I think I need to talk to my doc.. and my lawyer 

I can garuntee you that's going to get polluted.

Take a look at the great number of HAL personalities on the link I posted. Most of those personalities are built like that:
You start with a basic personality and talk to the AI. It asks and you answer. A databasesystem is build which analyses the actions and reactions either statistically and/or by simulating a neural network. If the AI answers in a wrong way, you correct it. Once you reached a certain level, you may lock the personality to prevent further changes, but some AI's have an open inter-user memory like Alan. That enables it to learn from every user who talks to it. I don't think Alan is "polluted" but it certainly has no specific personality one person defined it.
Chatterbots like Alan or HAL are on a number of sites. This is an example site and here you can find a couple more.
The biggest problem after implementing a real working chatterbot is to train it. But there the effort there can be minimised (following Alan's example) by giving the player the option to save the chatlog with the chatterbot/NPC and simply having a dev (I volunteer  ) reviewing the logs and correcting the behaviour.
I don't think this is suitable for all NPCs, but it can be a very, very cool feature for important NPCs like Harnquist.

Edit:

NPC dialogue is one of the most important tasks of the Settings team, and I don't think that it's possible to give this task out to folks that are not team members or prospects...

Bah.. We only work on spreading false rumors :-P

[morgondor]

nice idea  but wouldn't it be better to use it one a different npc than jayoos? i think it would be better if you place these special npc's in the tavern?

[hook]

...hmmm ...maaaybeee the pets (IF they were a bit mischeivous in character) could talk back in that manner ...like if my pet groffel Rharhas was summoned and I was talking to someone, it could be like this:

Seeln greets <name_of_adored_fenki>.
<name_of_adored_fenki> greets Seeln.
Seeln: Hullo, <name_of_adored_fenki>! Haven't seen you in ages, m'lady.
<name_of_adored_fenki>: Oh, hello there, Seeln.
Rharhas: Oh, <name_of_adored_fenki> ...isn't that the one you say she's soooooo gorgeous and how you melt when you see her?
Seeln grabs Rharhas under his arm and trys to hold his beak shut while smiling rather awkwardly at <name_of_adored_fenki>.
Rharhas: Ya know, lady ...I think Seeln likes ya!
Seeln: shutupshutupshutup ...Heheh, erm ...I've noooo idea where the lil' bugger gets those ideas.

or:
<name_of_random_player>: Any clue what to do about Levrus?
Rharhas: Oh, Seeln says quite often that Levrus is as mad as a rabid Tefusang who ate his wieght in poisonous mushrooms ...he says so much magic and solitude probably melted his mind.

I'd love to see that! ...and I *think* that's a bit simpler to do then watch out for all the NPCs what they're learning from random people. ...ye gods! *I* know I wouldn't want some of them to repeat what I've told them after a quest I did broke or got seriously stuck in it.

edit: typos