Thus it ends.

[Peacer]

i haven't attended to one single of your tournaments proglin as my character doesn't like to see blood spilled for entertainment, but if it's the last... well somene might have to drag him there or i could come in disguise.

Even though i weren't there to participate or spectate i hear from all the other players that it's great and thank you for helping them (if you can say that )

you have my full support ooc'ly and 75% ic'ly

-Peacer

[John80sk]

Haven't really been around for any of your tournaments, but I'm sad to see them go as they're something I'd like to participate in.  Can hardly see how they're OOC.  I am a bit confused though, what rules prevent you from holding them?

[Allive]

i may have only been in the last turney and this one but damn i had fun it was good to well erm yeah ok i was first out in the sword turney but it was still a fun event proglin dont run of i mean your the only real turnament i have seen in ps it would be a shame to turn your back on it cause of rules. if all else fails bend the rules to your own ends 9well as much as you can ) try getting some support from a few of the devs surely noone can touch yah after that ? vengance has said he will give you suport. And if you need a hand just ask ill help yah.

Alliva

[Proglin]

All you guys, thank you for your support and understanding. I had a great deal of fun arranging events for you all.

@ Karyuu: Dear Karyuu, thatnk you to for your support. Just one side-note... The GM team can easely arrange more events. even spontanious ones. Restrictions are easely made, and the people can easely be arranged. If I can, you can. Theres hundreds of people that can help you out. They are called, the players. Loads of these people will be happy to help you out with running an event. Give them a role in your events. I know they can, cause it was players that made my tournaments, not me. I just created the posabillity.

@ Talad: Ah! So YOU are responsible for the GM rules! Think harder and faster mate! Cause you're doing it wrong. You cose doors that should remain open.

@ Zorbels: Sweety! I'm not leaving you for ever ever! I couldn't! How could I live without my daily dose of Z? I will be less active, that's for sure. Maybe one day even create another character. and maybe... just maybe.... I'll start creating events that go arround the rules.

@ all of Yliakum: I love ya all!

@  under the moon: How's about a beer in the tavern some day soon ey?

[ThomPhoenix]

It is a shame to see you stop organizing tournaments, Proglin. It's also a shame that you will be less active
There is one cause of this situation:
miscommunication

I've said it before; It seems no one actually knows what they are doing.
Some examples
a GM applying rules not supported by the GM team
GM's who say organizing events is hard and it takes a whole team to do it
GM's who think they can make rules on how to roleplay
People who think there are enough GM's
GM's who think supporting a player-run event is "out of character"

All the above are things I see in this topic and other topics, but are just so wrong.

GM's should also realize it is part of their duty to keep the game fun, not to be a pain in the ass.
If their are dozens of events/roleplay, which "do not apply to the rules", then maybe those rules are wrong...
GM rules are stupid anyway, common sense would need to be enough to control a max of 150 people.

Anyway: on topic again.

We won't forget your tournaments, Proglin! 

[Araye]

Master Proglin,

Don't let it end.  You are an inspiration to the PS world.  You constantly think up new and interesting events.  I have been an admirer of your skills for many moons.  All of your events have been created to be well within the boundaries of roleplay - I have even seen you use bracketed speech to correct OOC newbs attempting to get them to understand rp.

I have said many times, this is OUR world - GM's are only for enforcing some set of rules (unseen rules it appears at times) and DEV's give us new tools and places to work within.  It is the players that bring Yliakum to life.  A GM or DEV that interferes with our lives has missed the point of their job and function.  It is my opinion that unless some player is breaking theses rules, we should never, NEVER see a GM.  

So we should not expect them to interfere, but we should also not expect their help in the events.

From Karyuu's posts it is clear there aren't enough GM's to sponsor events.  And you know exactly how much work it is to pull off a tournament.  They simply don't have the time to do it correctly.  We need you and other people like you - Bodacher, Xillix, Anfa, Sov, Easton, Illori...  There are many others, but I think the point is made.

And Karyuu, you asked why things aren't brought up sooner?  Why don't we hear about problems until their is a bandwagon for everyone to jump on?

Why?  Because there is a rule that says you can't publically criticise GM's or their rulings.  Do it in PM's.  Which are easy to ignore.  Delete, delete, delete...

Look, a perfect example.  It took a public display of disapproval for the Hydlaa Auction to be resumed.  Personally I think this is exactly the place to bring these issues.

In the past I have been helped by several GM's and DEV's.  And I thank you from the bottom of my heart.  This last release, with all the new art!  Beautiful!  Karyuu I assume you did the armor skins?  Extremely beautiful!  (The chainmail isn't really chainmail though - as illustrated, it is more partial plate which has a much lower armor class than chainmail.)  Many of you have helped me for hour on end build a client for my linux box.  Xordan and DaveG are the best.  And I have nothing but respect for Talad and Jorrit, who have also both helped me.  Please don't take offense to this next statement:

I call for the end of the invisible dictatorship!

Please, let us live and thrive.

Araye Bayebes

[zorbels]

I understand the frustrations people feel - I often share them. But why is it that I so rarely hear complaints until a bandwagon is rolled around and everyone jumps onto it?

Unfortantly Karyuu, Proglin has brought this issue up on the forums many times. The Auction mess was one time recently that I can think of. It seems that his events get more grief then they are worth to him, though I am not pointing any fingers just repeating what proglin has said in different words.

@Proglin: I am glad you are not going forever ever. *Huges* This would sadden me a great deal. Instead of tournaments I guess I could settle for a tavern setting and a milk, with proglin on the table telling his stories. But only if we play good mage, bad mage again! That was super fun!

[Karyuu]

Janner: I understand, and I'm sorry if my "bandwagon" statement was out-of-place or insulting.

Zorbels: The auction fiasco is the only thing you mentioned. It doesn't make it "many times" automatically.. :> But I don't know *shrug!*

Proglin, if the rules are changed/adjusted, will you keep your role as Entertainer? If we make the right modifications and you see the fixes, will it be enough to stick around and continue your awesome work?

Certainly hope so, but I'd like to know if we even have a chance of seeing more of your tournaments :}

[zorbels]

Zorbels: The auction fiasco is the only thing you mentioned. It doesn't make it "many times" automatically.. :> But I don't know *shrug!*

I know, I just couldn't think of the other threads names for me to meantion. Plus I really don't want to start a debate, as I see two sides of this story and feel for both sides, it is not really anyones fault but more like the fault of an unstable system. When I find the threads I will organize them and sent them to you in a pm. And thank you for that post above. It gives me hope, I just hope Proglin will accept.

* zorbels reads Karyuu's post and looks at proglin with hopeful eyes

If this happens Proglin know I will help in anyway possible to get these tournaments up and running again.

[Farren Kutter]

Indeed Proglin, as will I!

[Proglin]

There's always a chance I'll be back in business. Just don't count on it, cause for now. I'm fed up. Still.. reading all the replies give me hope.

[miadon]

Well I am hosting that race on the 13th just to add something else to the game as we need events like tournaments, races, auctions, festivals all these things give life to the game and are created by the players.

[Cherppow]

Hi,

I admit I don't know much about GM things or the tournaments, but judging from what I've read here, they're the kind of activity we should support and encourage.

I may not be able to make it there personally, but since it'll be an axe tournament...

An axe mod for those longing for a little variation. Changes doubleaxe01a into a rather large cleaver. Only affects the graphics on your client.

To apply:
- take backup of your existing doubleaxe01a.spr and doubleaxe01a_icon.dds. (in planeshift/art/things/weapons.zip)
- download zip: http://users.tkk.fi/~vrantapu/PlaneShift/p_axe_mod.zip
- unzip the package and copy the 3 files into your planeshift/art/things/weapons.zip
- run PS normally and enter the tournament wielding a double axe

It's a small gift compared to the work Proglin has done for PS community.

[Einnol]

I've always enjoyed your tournaments, Proglin, and have had a lot of fun cheering with the audience. We're going to try seeing what we can do about player events

I would seriously like to know who has been calling these tournaments OOC, though. We understand that GM participation has been limited (and hopefully not for long!) and this affected the events, but people bringing them down, purposefully, that doesn't make any sense.

Karyuu, I would like to know what dev told the GMs not to help with player events.

I support these tournaments 1000% and have even thought about adding support directly into the game for tournaments, including bracketing windows, entrance fees and wagering.  It is greatly disappointing to hear it said that wanting to excel in tournaments "isn't RP".  Good god people.  Snap out of it.  That's like saying "it isn't RP" for you to eat the little dots in Pac-Man.

Proglin, you have my full support.  If anyone gives you grief, please refer them to me.

- Vengeance

@Karyuu and Vengeance:  I don't think anyone can dispute the amount of work and dedication that both of you (as well as several others from the GM and dev teams) have put into PS and continue to every day.  Sometimes I can barely keep up with reading the forum, let alone moderate and/or administer it.     Add to that development work and GM work and still try to have something resembling a real life also.      I, for one, can fully understand how little time is left over for firstly planning a GM-run event, and secondly, running that event.  Also, your kind supportive words restore my faith in both teams as well.

@Any GM who might have permission and a few hours of time:  As players, we can not demand or expect any assistance for player-created, 'non-official' events.  This is a fact that I, myself, can accept.  But, on Proglin's behalf, I will humbly ask if it is possible.  A little bit of teleporting assistance can go a long way in making these tournaments much more successful and enjoyable.  The problem as I see it is two-fold:

1.  The often discussed increased distance between Hydlaa (the arena, specifically) and Ojaveda.  During normal day-to-day gameplay, I completely agree that the distance is nothing more than a minor inconvenience at worse.  I have no problems making the trip myself.  Add to this the time needed to travel thru the DR as well and it can be a deterrent for those that may want to participate in the tournament.  By the time a defeated warrior makes it back to the arena, they could easily miss several duels that they could have enjoyed watching.

2.  Defeat by bug.  If a competitor gets a ticket to the DR thru an OOC means like a bug and a rematch is needed, the tournament might basically be on hold while waiting for them to make it back.

Yes, it can be argued that someone could yield before they are defeated.  But, this still won't help in the second case listed above.

@Proglin:  Even if I have to run from the top of the Bronze Doors fortress to Ojaveda between each match, I would still be there.  Your hard work and planning is deeply appreciated. 

@Everyone:  Lately, it has been disheartening to see a lot of us versus them mentality.  Maybe it is time for everyone to take a deep breath and put themselves in the someone elses shoes and try to see things from a different point of view.  A little thankfulness and kindness from everyone can go a long way.  GM, dev, or player, we are all human and equal in that respect.  It is sometimes easy to loose sight of the fact that this should be fun for everyone (players, GM's and devs).

As players, we should be saying to the GM's and devs 'Thank you.  We appreciate all of your work and time.'

This can also be a two-way street.  Maybe a simple 'Thank you for working to create a gift for the community when we simply do not have enough hours in the day to do so' from a GM or dev to a player who has spent many, many hours planning it (which you can certainly understand, I am sure).  We are all doing what we can with the tools we have.  We just have slightly different tool sets.   

If a player can have fun and enjoy game features and events created by GM's and devs, can it also work the other way.  Are GM's allowed to have fun and lend a helping hand if they have the time and they want to?  Are they allowed to say to a player 'Hey.  You have done something good to add life to PS and create fun.  Well done.'?

[Under the moon]

*slaps himself with a be constructive stick*

As many of you know, when confronting a problem ingame I often turn to real life for the solution. Why? Because real life has been around for a lot longer, and a few more of the kinks have been worked out.

Problem: trips to the Deathrealm and faraway spawnpoints make it difficult for Tourneys to go on without GM help. Many roleplaying folks do not wish to participate for this very reason. They do like to watch, but do not enjoy the pointless trip through the DR. I know I do not.

RL solution: How many tournaments, -real tournaments- do you know of that required one of the combatants to die? Rome, yes, sometimes, but that was a most brutal society. I do not see PS as having that mentality. The tourneys are meant to be a distraction for fun. The point being, do not make dueling fatal. There is a simple solution. Create an auto yield option for dueling. If a player is 'killed', they see the death animation and fall to the ground. The other player is the victor and gets the vaunted duel points. What happens to the other player? For starters, they do not get a free trip to the DR. Let them lay on the ground for a minute or two, then have their health begin to return. They then can get up and watch the next round, or even participate if the rules of the tourney call for it.

This would also be well do for normal roleplaying. The streets are a bloodbath now. Nearly half of the arguments end in someone in a puddle of their own fluids. The guards do nothing. Are we that barbaric? The settings and roleplay do not match up with game mechanics. This causes great confusion for all types of players. In real life, rarely do fights end in death. If it does, the survivor is often in a great deal of trouble. There is none of that here.

In effect, I advise some recoding to make dueling less -or not at all- fatal. If a duel calls for someone to die, that can always be RPed with /die. As for fights with creatures? No. If you take on a mob, you are facing something that wants you dead. The game works perfectly in that aspect. Believe me, I know.

Practical terms: Challenge (or maybe Non Fatal Challenge, as that would make it clear what type of fight you are looking for) -->  life is taken to 0 OR 1 --> auto yield defeat --> death animation --> short time in 'dead' pose --> life starts returning --> standing pose and continue playing.

@ Proglin: You sir, have a deal. I just have to create a character that can drink you under the table first.