Author Topic: Thus it ends.  (Read 20265 times)

stfrn

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Re: Thus it ends.
« Reply #135 on: August 09, 2006, 04:13:30 am »
Pestilence, no one is forcing the GMs to be less activi. You see them less because there are far less Gms then there were months ago :P I was used to seeing 4+ Gms online at peak times, and now there can be one if you are lucky. However, blindly recruiting new Gms would just make matters worse, so a comprimise should be worked out eventually.
player -> gm -> dev -> bum

Pestilence

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Re: Thus it ends.
« Reply #136 on: August 09, 2006, 04:25:08 am »
Well Stfrn you are partly right but also very wrong in my opinon. The GMteam is diminished in numbers, but not that much to go from as you said yourself 4 at top times to now often not even one at those times. Also seeing it's been what? A half year now since the new rules went in effect? The lack of recruiting in no way lies, in my opinion, in that there has not been enough time to select the right people and not blindly add new people.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2006, 04:26:50 am by Pestilence »

Datruth

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Re: Thus it ends.
« Reply #137 on: August 09, 2006, 04:35:43 am »
I think the only problem that we can find here is that there is no oversight.

Any oversight there may be is too busy to confront the gms as well.

Some may be good some may be bad, but as long as there is oversight all will be o.k.

If we want to fix this, we need a strong oversight committee that will keep all gm's in Check.

Also we might wanna add more Gm's to the team, it's alot of work they have to deal with or atleast i've heard and i don't know if 4 or 5 people can handle it successfully.

Maybe rework the Gm recruiting guidelines.

I don't have all the answers these are just a few opinions i thought might help.

Hopefully they help you guys.
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Peacer

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Re: Thus it ends.
« Reply #138 on: August 09, 2006, 04:44:11 am »
No offense, but I find that laughable :)

I'm going to go and laugh now.

I know you'd like to give GM powers to players and eliminate GMs entirely, but you're living in another world, Verrliit. Please think sensibly.

who want's to play mutewar

from verrliit
Quote
To be able to teleport would be quite sufficient.

MUAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

@zorbels/akkaye: sweet girl,congratulations and throw us some nice events and less headach players.


because of the lack of gm's online i(others too maybe) have had to deal with nut players by talking to them a problem which was really not yours but your friends, so you too it to group, it sickens me a bit that i had to use my time on this to ensure my friends well being.
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left the game, looking in now and then to check progress, if you want to contact me use the email attached to the msn contact on this forum account

Verrliit

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Re: Thus it ends.
« Reply #139 on: August 09, 2006, 04:55:59 am »
Akaye,

(It will take a bit to get used to the new name... :) )

You have shown me something that I need to post.


I have been "poking" at problems that have been sore points, and a source of intense frustration for some of the PS team, and most of the hard core PS players.

For doing this, I have been flamed hotly and extensively in this thread and others, and there has been a tremendous effort made to spin the meaining of my words, discredit me, and paint me as having wild ideas that make no sense.

It is my hope that the flaming was in vain, and those who read this thread will actually consider my thoughts as I posted them, rather than as others have pretended my words to mean.


That said, I have an obligation to perspective in this discussion.

Every player that has posted in this thread, loves PS, and dreams of what it could become.

None of us really wants to be in a fight with anyone, but while our community can survive a month without the NPC client, having such severely disfunctional GMs has caused great damage.

Since the beginning of this thread, we have gone from "we didn't know there was a problem" to publicly admitting that the GMs have been for the most part, broken, and are not a self-correcting structure.

It was painful getting here, but necessary.


In fairness, no one wants to be told that what they have put time and effort into, isn't working.

Given the time they put into the forums alone, I can see how Xordan, Karyuu and others, might take it personally.

But this thread isn't about them, or any other Dev, Mod or GM in particular.

It is about making PS functional.


And we all want that, don't we?


~Verrliit~
The Devs have invited us to play in their sandbox. The GMs keep us from spoiling each other's fun.  Be respectful, and thank them often.



Courtesy cannot be imposed by force.  Lead by example.  Be elegant.  - Dr. H. Lecter

Karyuu

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Re: Thus it ends.
« Reply #140 on: August 09, 2006, 04:57:56 am »
I'd just like to point out that many GMs are on summer vacation now. I myself am away from my regular machine and thus have no access to PS until next week. People go to travel, or visit resorts, etc. Also a couple of GMs have had problems with computer/net access, one of which was solved recently. The other I believe is still waiting for access to resume.

Things come up. Keep this in mind when you wonder why you might not have seen such-or-such GM in a while.

*edited to add*

Verrliit, sometimes you overdo your "eloquence" and I have noticed that you enjoy blowing things out of proportion.

If you want to be taken seriously, post seriously.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2006, 05:02:11 am by Karyuu »
Judge: Are you trying to show contempt for this court, Mr Smith?
Smith: No, My Lord. I am attempting to conceal it.

Datruth

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Re: Thus it ends.
« Reply #141 on: August 09, 2006, 05:02:39 am »
I'd just like to point out that many GMs are on summer vacation now. I myself am away from my regular machine and thus have no access to PS until next week. People go to travel, or visit resorts, etc. Also a couple of GMs have had problems with computer/net access, one of which was solved recently. The other I believe is still waiting for access to resume.

Things come up. Keep this in mind when you wonder why you might not have seen such-or-such GM in a while.

Do you all have each other's numbers in order to check up on each other?

If you did, maybe one could cover another person's slack.

And you made a good point, things do come up, maybe communication  can fix that gap, if we see a loss in Gm's.

If you don't have each others numbers, i guess you could get them now and keep in touch from time to time, would help everyone work more efficiently.

If this is already implemented than, great job, communication is the first step to starting a strong team.
Truth To Disbelief

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I adopt Karyuu.  She might not be new but her skin is so supple, soft and n00b like....  :sweatdrop:

Karyuu

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Re: Thus it ends.
« Reply #142 on: August 09, 2006, 05:05:08 am »
Datruth, we live in different parts of the world. We have a separate forum section and everyone's email address, but when the majority is not available, the minority cannot do a successful job of covering the others' slack. We do keep in touch and we have a thread where we post if we know we're going to have a period of inactivity. But that doesn't help - all that does is warn the other GMs to brace themselves and deal with much more than they did before, as best as they can.

*edit*

What would people want at this point, exactly? Exactly exactly. If you make a suggestion like "someone overseeing the GMs", you have to mention the who part of it. If you want changes to GM rules, mention the which of it. It's specifics that help much more than generalities.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2006, 05:13:07 am by Karyuu »
Judge: Are you trying to show contempt for this court, Mr Smith?
Smith: No, My Lord. I am attempting to conceal it.

Datruth

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Re: Thus it ends.
« Reply #143 on: August 09, 2006, 06:06:14 am »
What would people want at this point, exactly? Exactly exactly. If you make a suggestion like "someone overseeing the GMs", you have to mention the who part of it. If you want changes to GM rules, mention the which of it. It's specifics that help much more than generalities.

I do not know who would be in this committe and it isn't my place to decide.

I think talad should choose a group of individuals whose sole purpose is oversight.

But again, I cannot say, so and so, needs to be part of tihs group.

I'd gladly join it, but i don't know if Talad would approve me, if he would, than by all means.
Truth To Disbelief

Quote from: svuun
I adopt Karyuu.  She might not be new but her skin is so supple, soft and n00b like....  :sweatdrop:

Karyuu

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Re: Thus it ends.
« Reply #144 on: August 09, 2006, 06:21:10 am »
So you're thinking regular players? How would they be picked and what qualifications would they have to have? How many? They would have to be picked in an even stricter manner than the GMs are, since they would have to control GM behavior in a way.

Maybe we can avoid such complicalities and just get someone from the dev team to spend some time sorting around with GMs. That would be my preferences, instead of needing to train "GM Overseers" and having yet another group to manage and watch over.

How about we relax a bit for now, and take things one step at a time. With so many issues being thrown around, it's very easy to lose track of what was originally the problem and the suggestions made for the fix. Let's see where the player-events rule goes, and keep our fingers crossed for more GM events ASAP. I'm going to personally guarantee several next week unless something really serious gets in the way. Definitely feel free to quote me on that and poke at me with pitchforks.

We're not going to see GM changes overnight, as Akaye stated, so one step at a time - let's see if any more problems will come up, or if we can all loosen up our nerves and do a good job from now on. Players here have spent a lot of their time and effort voicing their concerns, and they are important. You're not ignored. Ignoring people like Proglin is a crime :}

So I ask personally, let's try to move forward while we sort out internal problems and try to reach solutions that will benefit everyone. You're all certainly free to continue posting with suggestions, but it is the suggestions that I would like to see at this point more than voices full of cries of injustice and wrongdoing. Sharing ideas helps us improve.

I know that there are a lot of people who are angry or upset, and it can be difficult to keep that inside. Please, send me a PM - I promise to listen and do my best in improving things for you. A few folks have already done that, and I think that we all gained something from the exchanges, and felt at least a tiny bit better afterwards.

I've never denied mistakes when they were made, and I'm not going to start. A lot of this has been very stressful, but I'm not going to be turning away.
Judge: Are you trying to show contempt for this court, Mr Smith?
Smith: No, My Lord. I am attempting to conceal it.

Verrliit

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Re: Thus it ends.
« Reply #145 on: August 09, 2006, 06:48:54 am »
I'd just like to point out that many GMs are on summer vacation now. I myself am away from my regular machine and thus have no access to PS until next week. People go to travel, or visit resorts, etc. Also a couple of GMs have had problems with computer/net access, one of which was solved recently. The other I believe is still waiting for access to resume.

Things come up. Keep this in mind when you wonder why you might not have seen such-or-such GM in a while.

*edited to add*

Verrliit, sometimes you overdo your "eloquence" and I have noticed that you enjoy blowing things out of proportion.

If you want to be taken seriously, post seriously.

I am as serious as a heart attack, as playful as a kitten, in proportion as a ratio, and clear as a sunny day, Karyuu.

But I am top-heavy...

Sorry, I can't help that.  :)

Please forgive my excesses of eloquence.


You are not hearing calls for more GMs to help save us from the noobs, even though GMs are in-game so rarely now, that the players are largely taking care of themselves.

A few of us have asked for more GMs, but only because we need help with more elaborate RP events. 

If only a few players were able to teleport, (Proglin, and his staff, for instance.) that would instantly take care of most things we want GMs for.

And while you folks try to figure out checks and balances for control freak GMs, we can continue to play events.


It is by no means a perfect solution, but it is immediate, would take a lot of pressure off of the GMs, and it is good enough for a stopgap measure.


~Verrliit~
The Devs have invited us to play in their sandbox. The GMs keep us from spoiling each other's fun.  Be respectful, and thank them often.



Courtesy cannot be imposed by force.  Lead by example.  Be elegant.  - Dr. H. Lecter

neko kyouran

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Re: Thus it ends.
« Reply #146 on: August 09, 2006, 06:51:47 am »
Quote from: Karyuu on August 08, 2006, 11:05:08 PM
"What would people want at this point, exactly? Exactly exactly. If you make a suggestion like "someone overseeing the GMs", you have to mention the who part of it. If you want changes to GM rules, mention the which of it. It's specifics that help much more than generalities."


This is certainly a good read.  Anyway....

This may be a little off the current subject, but here's what I think would help close the gap between the gm team on the player base.  All to often, I would hear players refer to gm's with an uncertainly, some even being affraid of them.  Heck, when I was new, and I saw a gm online for the first time, my first reaction was, "whoa, a GAME master!, they must be important, i'd better not go by em, as i wouldn't want to bug em"  It's just to me anyway, there is a gap between the gm's and player base.  There's a certain air of uneasyness or something about it. When really, the GMs and players should be working along side each other to create a better world for both.

So perhaps to better fill this gap I propose a few things.  Make it more gm-to-player base friendly.

1) Have it publically available the rules GM's must follow.  Put it side by side to the general players rules.  Show that gm's are players too, just with more added responsibilty.  This can also be used for when questions come up about actions taken by gm's.  Prevent confusion why things were done as they were done.  I don't know of any governing body that has rules, but doesn't let the populance know them.  And afterall, that is the primary role of a GM.  To make sure that the players are able to play without having "bad apples" spoil it for them.  (Thus the discussion about a team for creating RP events, and a team for moderating can be brought up, but one thing at a time here)

2)  I'd also like to see the minutes posted somewhere of the gm meetings that take place.  Now I'm not a GM, so I have no idea what is talked about during those meetings.  But, again, it would prevent confusion form the player base.  As Miss K likes examples, lets refer to the one already pointed out. Referring to the Auction incident that recenltly happened.  If the minutes of that meeting were posted, that decision could have been debated on, and perhaps none of that could have ever happened.  

3) I'm not sure why exactly but before the restructuring, gm's didn't have to be invisible.  I would occassionaly see one on the plazaa, standing, chatting with players, having a good time, getting feedback from the players about the world's happenings, staying informed and whatnot.  Now that they have become "ghosts in the wind" well, it has reduced the friendly atmosphere between GM's and players.  If at all possible, I'd wish that this rule be optional for GM's to follow.  If a GM wants to be invisble fine, but if they wish to remain visible to the players, mingle with them, chat with them, just be friendly again, I think it would bridge the gap again.  Now, I know that GM's are supposed to exist out side the realm of the game, that they are OOC, but by demanding that they be invisble, I think it has done more harm than good to the player base.  When they were still visible, a simple explanation of they are figments of my characters imagination, was good enough for me.  They were still able to do their job, be friendly like, and it didn't effect the RP atmosphere, well, not to me anyway.

GM's aren't hear just to enforce and punish.  Their main goal is to make the game fun for everyone.  Again, to me at least, becuase of this air of uncertainly or something, there seems a to be a gap between the gm team andnormal players.  I'd like to see that closed, see the players and GM's work as a single unit, both supporting each other, rather than one ruling over the other.  These types of threads are perfect for this.  GMs need feedback as to how they are doing. It's a players duty to provide this.

Hope this helps.

Edit, sorry miss k, was typing while you and Verr had posted.  Didn't read your posts till after I hit the post button.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2006, 06:55:05 am by neko kyouran »

Valbrandr

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Re: Thus it ends.
« Reply #147 on: August 09, 2006, 06:54:07 am »
Though I wish a group could oversee the GMs so there are limited problems... sounds like too much bureaucracy. It might cause even more problems if its a newly trained group. So, that doesnt seem like its the way to go. Without knowing how exactly everything works now its hard to suggest anything. I dont know whether Uyaem (sp?) reports to Talad about what has happened each week, two weeks, or month.. Communication (if everyone had time) would be key. 

I do think that the way to becoming a GM is a bit broken. Last I knew(when I became a GM) was you inform a GM that you want to become a GM.. if that person is your friend or knows you well enough (or just is bored and wants to bring the name up) they will make a post on your behalf in the GM forums.. Each GM whos active makes a post either saying yay, nay or abstaining.. I cant remember exactly but I do not believe simple majority gets you in.. and there are not too many votes anyway. Maybe up to 15 or so depending.  It is very difficult to get in unless you have a friend on the inside.. or many friends. And if you are a controversial character good luck.  Anyway, if after that point you pass, then Talad has an interview with you. Make it through that and you are a GM.

So for people who just want to help.. and are not out there getting to know people and whatnot.. its going to be tough for you. You have to be known. And sometimes its tough because some of the GMs are inactive (have been and always will be because everyone has obligations.. things come up). Other issues are the requirements, which Im not sure what they are anymore.. I know you have to be 18 (which didnt use to be a req.. crappy if you ask me) and I beleive there is a req on your time spent here.. or maybe that was just implied because you had to be a "Known" player.. 6 months to a year of being with PS. Hmm those are the only ones I can think of.

How can we fix it might be the question. Its a tough one. How do we make a group of people not follow their instincts or bias'? And its not like many people on the dev team can play enough to know who should be there. They make the game and dont get all day to play. Ill have to keep thinking.. its not something simple here.. been going round and round for some years looking for an answer. Let me add one thing though.. I do believe that the GM team has enough people who are genuine and want what many of us want. It will take time as Karyuu said. But hopefully more people who care about PS and less about power/ corruption come forward and rework the GM team. If that were the goal hell I would volunteer (though I might be considered one of those controversial characters these days.

Edit:
neko kyouran: Some good ideas there.. I believe your right about the rift between GMs and Players.. and your first solution is a good one.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2006, 07:04:05 am by Valbrandr »

Induane

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Re: Thus it ends.
« Reply #148 on: August 09, 2006, 07:18:31 am »
What ever happened to the RM team? 

Easton

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Re: Thus it ends.
« Reply #149 on: August 09, 2006, 07:22:03 am »
Maybe we just need more GMs. Maybe those players which are deemed to be potential GM material could be asked if they would like to join. I don't know.. im trying to help..  :-[
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