Thus it ends.

[Karyuu]

Hey, suggestions :] You guys rock.

If only a few players were able to teleport, (Proglin, and his staff, for instance.) that would instantly take care of most things we want GMs for.

I can definitely see giving temp GM powers to Proglin and similar players for tournaments or approved events. Approved, because we still have to make sure events won't alter the PS setting somehow. Temp GM powers, because the team even right now makes a very clear distinction between RP characters and their GM characters. They can't overlap. If Proglin were given GM powers to hang onto forever, it would alter his character - and give him power to influence the world in nonapproved events. Not that I don't trust the guy! Proglin is awesome. But GM powers for events are for approved events, and I think a temp setup right now will work okay. It can certainly be worth a try. (A thing worth mentioning - /deputize is temporary in that the effect stops as soon as a player logs off. So in case of a crash, one GM would have to stick around to /deputize again. Shouldn't be a problem though.)

1) Have it publically available the rules GM's must follow.

I see no problems with this as well, so I will try to pass this on. If anything, it will at least create a bit more trust. And new applying GMs will understand better what it is they are applying for, which is another bonus. Not like GM rules have any spoilers that I know of :] Let's hope Talad will see it this way as well.

2)  I'd also like to see the minutes posted somewhere of the gm meetings that take place.

Also doable as far as I see - we're having a bit of a conflict with meeting times, as people are changing job schedules or taking new classes, so it's likely that the "meetings" will be held on our forum section. This will also need Talad's approval. I'd like to mention however that if our meetings discuss something like specific bans or player actions, those will remain private, and I hope that folks understand.

3) I'm not sure why exactly but before the restructuring, gm's didn't have to be invisible.  I would occassionaly see one on the plazaa, standing, chatting with players, having a good time, getting feedback from the players about the world's happenings, staying informed and whatnot.

This one is a bit iffy, as Talad has been rather adamant about GM invisibility. I'd love to be visible and hang around with players, throwing them random riddles and apple rewards as I used to, and I think most GMs would agree. However, there's not much else I can say on the subject, except that I'll try to pass it on.

I do think that the way to becoming a GM is a bit broken. Last I knew(when I became a GM) was you inform a GM that you want to become a GM.. if that person is your friend or knows you well enough (or just is bored and wants to bring the name up) they will make a post on your behalf in the GM forums..

That's pretty much how it is, except there's no voting - opinions are posted instead and Talad makes the final judgment. It can be awkward - sometimes a name is brought up that no one knows, so we just have nothing to say and the nomination goes nowhere. I suppose we can have players submit nominations, but that's also very easily manipulated, so if anyone has any good ideas here they'd be appreciated.

What ever happened to the RM team? 

The RMs were merged with the GMs, to eliminate too much work in managing both teams and to eliminate some redundancy.

Maybe we just need more GMs. Maybe those players which are deemed to be potential GM material could be asked if they would like to join. I don't know.. im trying to help.. 

Hey, if anyone wants to throw out any nominations, do it :] I'd recommend PMs instead of posting publically, but whatever way you may prefer.

[Keyaz]

Half the fun of doing an event is putting the effort into it, running around like a madman on the loose getting things straightened out.

when you lost the patience to do this, you all lost hope to run an event as good as they were, craving gm abilities to make playing the game easier...

[Verrliit]

Makiing the GMs invisible, did two things.

It removed their OOC presence...

And it pretty much guaranteed that GMs would never casually interact with players, or make a new friend among the players, unless it was in IRC.

And no, they can't just log in with their player characters.  They don't have enough time to be GMs and characters too.

The social barrier between GMs and players, is far more destructive to PS, than their OOC presence ever was.

GMs are supposed to be our friends and helpers, not our keepers.

Mandating their invisiblility was as silly as forbidding OOC chat in ( ) or [ ] would be.

The experiment was a failure, Talad.

Let us see our GM friends again.


~Verrliit~

[Induane]

The RMs were merged with the GMs, to eliminate too much work in managing both teams and to eliminate some redundancy.

There is no redundancy if the GM's rules don't allow them to help with evens such as those hosted by Proglin.  The RM team was specificially for this type of event, and if the GM's are not allowed to help as Proglin says, then saying there is redundency is absurd.  If anything they were the right idea.  Haaving special GM's if only a few, whos job was helping with ingame rolplay events, seems to me a good way to not bother regualr GM's and to still keep up the RP events.  People like Zan and Lordbug were the right people for this job.  I was truely disappointed that their positions were eliminated. 

Mandating their invisiblility was as silly as forbidding OOC chat in ( ) or [ ] would be.

I didn't know it was mandated - I just thought that they switched invisible to default is all.  A GM could become visible easily.  Of course that is assuming they want to...  Probably better to just allow them the option of invisibility imho

The experiment was a failure, Talad.

Ouch!  It may be quite possible that you are correct here, but .... I really only question the need for remarks that restate the same opinion in a way purely designed to provoke reaction... maybe I"m way off kilter here....

It is true that I have many objections to the way Talad runs things.   I came to PlaneShift somehow under the assumption that players had some kind of influence over the direction of the game... things like wish lists, art contribution, etc... but I've grown more cynical over these things over the years.  Sure one could become a dev or GM but really one shouldn't need to be "special" to be able to contribute.  People who run these events ingame are doing the game a wonderful service, devoting time and energy to the game and its players in a way that few have, and yet it appears that the rules have been changed to make things more difficult for these people. 

I really don't understand why there can't be someone on staff who has a gm'd level access character, and permission to make minor changes to planeshifts art for simple events.  During the Hydlaa Festival of the Hunt I slaved for hours creating some minor modifications to the art that hung some posters ingame, and changed the arena banners.  I had to try to convince everyone to download my mods however instead of having people get them through their updater in the days before the event, and then having the posters taken down the day after the event.  These kinds of things are quite simple to do and if htere was someone on staff who was technically skilled enough  to pull it off, and had a good understanding of settings and RP, I see no reason why this couldn't be done.  The ability for GM's to "deputize" a character exists, so it would also be simple enough for this staff member to give temporary teleport capibilities to someone hosting an RP event that includes tournaments. 

[Peacer]

Let us see our GM friends again.

i'm a bit confused, didn't you say somewhere earlier that gm's were good at ruining it?
Is this a change in opinions for you, then i'm glad you had it

Maybe we just need more GMs. Maybe those players which are deemed to be potential GM material could be asked if they would like to join. I don't know.. im trying to help..

agred... a nice gm for the european players too

You are not hearing calls for more GMs to help save us from the noobs, even though GMs are in-game so rarely now, that the players are largely taking care of themselves.

gm's doesn't have to take care of noobs, players can do that quite well as long as they don't flame them and so on, although it's a nice thought

[Janner]

 OK you asked for suggestions.
 To be a GM go to irc and log into gm channel and leave a request, or PM a GM, then sit back and wait, as things take time, also they need time to evaluate you.
 Rules should be made public before implementing them, gives us the time to adjust to them, making rules should be done in my view by top 3 Devs, then discussed with GMs before a final rule is agreed upon.
 GMs should be able to do both Role Play and law enforcement, as it is part of game to Role Play. Ideally two separate groups should be the way to go as at moment combining seams to have been a big flop. As for the Role Play group fear of them misusing there powers go, they will still be subject to normal game rules, so Law enforcement GMs will have the power to do same to them as a unruly player.  I hear you cry but there powers are better than mine, I say so what you still have the power to punish them if they do wrong. And you are there as a GM not for your level of power but to do a job.

 Thats my thoughts on it.

[Xordan]

A few things;

GMs were made invisible by default because GMs are OOC as some of you have said. Also, the fact that a lot of other MMO's successfully work this way is proof that this does work (see WoW). There's no rule stopping them from being visible at any time if they see the need. I kind of like it this way myself.

When a person becomes a GM, they don't start at GM1. They get put at whatever powers they need. For example, Akaye is GM4 so she can run events. Having a seperate RM/EM team would be little different, because they would follow the same rules as the current GMs do for events and they'd have the same powers... it would just be another layer to manage.

Talad wants PS to have the best quality it can have from the art side. That's why we don't accept most submissions, because they're not up to standard. The ones that are however, I think we should accept. I would like to start up LWW again for people to submit to if possible, so there's a good way for us to look at submissions. It would be nice to be able to deliver art changes for an event like suggested through the updater, but the updater is a bit dodgy and very slow (our side) atm, so it isn't possible quite yet.

I disagree that the barrier between GMs and players is destructive. We (the players who were around then, probably before most of you had heard of PS) managed fine in AB and nearly all of MB without GMs. There was probably more roleplay then than there is now, and we had quite a thriving community. I see no reason why we can't have the same now, especially if you think that players can handle most of the noobs

[Caarrie]

Hi,
I do think it is a good idea to deputize someone to help with events like Proglins tournaments. I see only one problem with having Proglin have this ability he is very busy during his tournaments and might not have time to do this so i would think that someone on his team should be set with this ability maybe a healer or ref so that they can teleport the players and Proglin can deal with what is going on as he has a very hard job organizing and running these events. I am not saying that for other events he might not be able to handle this it is just that at the tournaments he is so busy i don't see he would have time for this. I am aware of his job given that i have been a ref at most of his tournaments and i have seen all that he does behind the scenes that the players cant see. Maybe durning times that GM's are not on there might be a temporary way that a player in high standing can have be let say gm1 for a few days to help take the load off the GM's when they get back.

Illori

[Mirashi]

Ok, maybe this discussion is slightly about GM's, but not about what everyone mentioned except Illori. I don't see what the problem is with GM's not helping out with the tournaments, and it would be nice to have an official one. Instead of talking about GM invisibility, and GM powers, and who's a GM and who isn't, why don't you talk about why GM's can't attend the tournaments? You guys flew way off topic and started talking about things like this, when really the only things that should be discussed about the GM's is teleporting who and when (say if they die in the middle of a tournament), and moderating the tournament...or I should say being an official ref. Other than that, I have no idea why you guys started talking about GM powers such as invisibility and things.

And just a note to save a lot of trouble: Make becoming a GM easier. I think a few posts back someone mentioned only favorites becoming GM's, and I think that person was right, because I digged in Zorbels' history and found her in a lot of stories and RP events, along with a few others such as Rilar, and Keyaz. Instead of picking roleplayers, you should pick people who will actually test, and help others. Maybe some of these people helped, but I fail to see any of them test, but instead only go afk ingame. I see more GM's on the forums than I do ingame, and I believe it will continue to be like this until there's actually more people able to apply, so some active players will be ingame always without people having to resolve an idiot bothering them in the tavern themselves, which only leads to more trouble.

Now, that being said, there are no reasons why NORMAL players, or long-time players can't all become GM's. If that person is willing ot test, help others, moderate, run events, and all these other things, they should be able to apply. Now you shouldn't recruit very new players to the team (I'm new myself), but once we learn more about the game, and are able to answer questions instead of ask them ourselves, we should have a chance to maybe have a test day; one day of having GM powers and moderating, just to see what it's like. If we were to do a good job, we could join the GM team. But right now, picking out favorites who haven't actually tested, or done much other than post 1000 times on the forums, isn't a good way to do things. Maybe Zorbels will be a good GM, I don't actually know her, but right now the way GM's are picked is a little biased on how long people play, or how active they are on the forums.

Ok, enough of my off-topic GM chatter.

Oh, and my example: Tarel and Kerol are on the forums now. Where are they ingame?

[Caarrie]

Hi,
I just wants to add a few more things here. I spend a lot of time on irc and a lot of time ingame. I have seen this summer a lack of GM's in game and a lack of willing GM's on irc so i dont see that they do anything to help. I have seen Kerol in game sometime but only when he wants to go in or someone makes him go on to fix a problem but he is not always willing to come on a fix a problem. I have also seen a few other GM's on the #planeshift-gmtalk channel and i see they lack the will to help planeshift they like to just be there and do nothing. I have seen Tarel in game but he is of low level so he cant do as much as someone with GM3-4 skills so again we have a lack of abliity to get things done. I see we have GM's just a lot of them (perhaps some of the older ones) are lacking the time to continue this task and maybe they need to be removed or more need to be added to the team that are active as in are ingame and not just idle on irc so they can do what is needed then and not called in game because of an issue needs to be taken care of. I have made petitions for characters to be renamed and seen them sit for days before a gm has logged in to rename them it does not take a lot of time to do that so i dont see why this cant be dont on the day of the petition and not days later. I know GM's are people and have things to do but come on they have been selected to do a job and if they cant be bothered to do it then they dont need to have the job just like in the rl if you dont work you get fired. Also more people that are active should have the ability to become a GM just because someone lacks RP does not mean they cant do a great job helping the GM team they could even be on when another cant be to help with an event or solve other issues ingame when the GM's the can RP are not around. The only GM that does a lot when ingame is Bakuun/Karyuu and I wish more GM's would be like her.

Just a few thoughts,

Illori

[Farren Kutter]

Illori, Kerol has come on every time I asked him to... And I have seen him on a LOT....

[ThomPhoenix]

When a GM is on IRC, he could just as well be in-game. You shouldn't have to ask them to.

[DeathsAngel]

Cool, I'll try to be there and make that new patch work ^_^

but it's sad that you stop

[Easton]

I just want to return to the GM invisibility thing one more time...

I agree with Xordan on this one... GMs are, by definition, ooc, and therefore shouldn't be seen around unless everyone acknowledges they are OOC. I remember seeing GMs in the plaza all the time, sometimes interacting with people and other times just standing there. I think it is better RP-wise that we do not see GMs except for rare occassions where they are either asking for your help, asking for information, mediating an OOC argument, or doing other GM things. Lately, the only times i have spoken with GMs is in a very secluded place and for very valid reasons. (such as bug testing and investigating an incident) Despite their invisibility, i've always been able to contact a GM and talk with them when needed. Sometimes i have to wait a few minutes, which is completely understandable, but for the most part GMs are there.. just invisible.. kinda like the wind.

But this may be because i know all of the GMs names, and they are on my buddylist. Younger players don't know any and have no idea where to begin to find them. So i don't know how the relationship is for them. But then again, are young players really looking to join the GM team. When they want to join, they'll ask around, and they'll probably be a bit more "fluent" in the way things run around here.

But yes.. posting the GM rules or whatnot is a great way to open the communication a bit, and yes Karyuu, i understand that specific issues and names and whatnot would still be kept. That makes sense.

Easton

[Induane]

Accessibility is one thing that would definately help.    If we could easily contact GM's or at least click somewhere to see which are online that might be helpful.